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Sunday, May 19, 2024 |
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SORG MANSION TAX CREDIT |
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Rhodes 
MUSA Resident 
Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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 Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 9:09pm |
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HHG, I get your point that the money is already there, so what's the big deal approach. A lot of people on here are borderline, if not all the way, libertarians. When government has enough money to pass out for pet projects that means they are collecting too much and need to start returning it. It sounds great to help communities, but I'm sure you know from your own experience that certain people tend to benefit more than others from these programs.
Nobody seems to be denying my earlier assessment of how the programs work and since it does appear to work that way or close to it, that is unfortunate the tax payers are funding a large portion of the rehab costs of the Sorg Mansion. No wonder the buyers of that property staked it out for so long. They found a project in which they would benefit financially through the use of tax dollars. As I posted earlier, the only time frame of ownership I could find was at the federal level of 5 years. Maybe this is why the new owners are on their 4th or 5th bed and breakfast adventure. As for the street lamp costs to operate. That would be interesting to see where the information is coming from that states they are 4 times the cost. I won't say I don't believe that totally, but it doesn't sound accurate. From a little research I just did, these types of lights are gaining in popularity around the country in subdivisions and many areas have waiting lists because of the demand. With technological advances, it would be strange that the cost to operate would go up by that much. Doesn't the Sunset Park area already have these type of lights? I could be wrong, but I think I remember seeing similar lights on Aberdeen Dr.
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Historic House Guy
MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Jul 28 2013 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 272 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 7:40pm |
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SJ, you're right. State money is still our money. Be glad some came back home thanks to these folks and their vision (regardless if it works or not). As for the street lights, not sure where you come up with 4x the cost of regular lights but if you notice, they're spaced out further then your normal street light so they don't need to run as many to get the job done. This may or may not wash at the end. Would be interested to know how you came about this efficiency number.
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 7:40pm |
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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 7:32pm |
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fair enough rhodes and house guy
we are rambling and straying anyway best of luck to these people though state $$ is still our $$--it wasn't printed for free and the issue over the lights was not installation/assessments, but the powering of these lights(4x the normal streetlights) which is not assessed but shared by everyone just a thought from my end--obviously not popular
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Historic House Guy
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 28 2013 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 272 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 7:19pm |
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Gezzus! You guys are (mostly) all nuts. These tax credits are awarded by the State. They set aside a certian amount for private historic preservation every year so no matter where it goes, it's going somewhere. You would think that you would be happy that an investor came to take the mansion and turn it into something. Eveen happier that they were awarded a state funded tax credit to help them offset cost for the project and get the job done.
Instead you find everything wrong with the deal and act like this is coming out of some fund that's going to short you on the things you'd like to see Middletown do with the money. This has nothing to with do with Middletown money! They are private investors who will eventually live at the estate. Why do you care so much if it fails or it's a hit. It's not costing you a dime. As far as the street lights are concered on S. Main, yes, the home owners there are paying for it themselves via assessment along with a share of the paving. We had an offer on a house there before the project started and attended a few community meetings so I know who was paying for what. They need to re-name this site "Middletown Curmudgeons" shesh!
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Rhodes
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 5:50pm |
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Sj, it's not a matter of how the Sorg Mansion property is viewed as whether it is worthy of existence or not. You made a claim that that was a corner that could change the downtown.
I didn't make anything personal because you have openly discussed your store going the dollar route. The only reason I made a reference to it was so that I could continue on about the huge amount of dollar stores that are already in Middletown. There was no way for me to make that point without mentioning your situation because if I didn't directly mention it, it would have been inferred that it was a dig. You can't openly discuss something like that on here and then call it personal when somebody is making a point about the influx of garbage stores throughout the city. Since we're on the topic of the Central Ave. property, it's funny that building is worthy of a remodel. Built of standard materials, nothing fancy, nothing over the top. Plain brick, concrete block, aluminum panels. Nothing of high quality. Not picking at it, it's pretty standard for Middletown, but it's ok and worthy of a remodel for a new store? Then downtown there is a mansion built like a tank that is a relic of the gilded age, built of the finest materials, exotic woods, all the good stuff. That's not worthy of restoring, but the new dollar store building is? It was a bad business idea. It was an even worse structure judgement analysis. Vivian, I never said the downtown didn't need new developments. I only challenged Sj because his solution was to demolish the Sorg Mansion and put a strip center and/or gas station on that dirt. None of the other vacant lots scattered all over downtown or the vacant lot across from the Sorg Mansion. No, it was the Sorg Mansion dirt that he says needed to house new commercial businesses. As for the Section 8 at Trinity Place, I'm pretty sure that they have never allowed that. Somebody could easily call again and check. I remember somebody on here was saying Trinity Place had Section 8 when things got tough, but the person that posted it was guessing that was the case. I can't remember if it was the same person or another person that kept confusing the 2 Trinity named properties, not realizing one was for elderly care only.
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 4:02pm |
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May I say something?
I am sick of hearing of South Main, and downtown non revitalization. Thank you. |
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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 3:38pm |
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We view the Sorg Mansion property differently. I was hardly mentioning a cheaply done strip center. I was thinking quality associated with the adjacent re-conditioned properties. I am talking attractive high-quality goods and services. Lord knows that we have enough low-level options. That location is dead-center to best serve the largest capable consumer neighborhood close by--and the block across is prime for re-development. We all want the area to become more attractive, and to do so pribvately without taxpayer expense. Face it--the Mansion will remain--poor condition and we will probably pay for it's restoration for private use and still never be invited inside. Sorry--a major waste and missed opportunity in my eyes..
YOU made this somewhat personal by mentioning my business situation in to this mix. I explained a few related situations, and imo all of these issues tie together in the big picture. People are beyond sick of hearing about the former downtown and S Main, believe me. It is only important to those with a stake there. Just being provocative? Try innovative. Old things in that state of dis-repair get demoed rather than millions to re-do. Try sensible and realistic. Expensively re-habilitating dilapidated structures to serve no cost-justifiable purpose is what makes no sense, and we seem to be doing just that repetitively. You seem to be an honorable sensible citizen, Rhodes, but we are not on the same page. So--time to join my friends---- <object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="//www.youtube.com/v/xBe8ilDjEJs?version=3&hl=en_GB&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="//www.youtube.com/v/xBe8ilDjEJs?version=3&hl=en_GB&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object> |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council 
Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 3:37pm |
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All of the feasibility studies that have been completed over the past 15 years have all stated that downtown will need a major draw to be successful. |
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Rhodes
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 12:46pm |
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Sj, the line you pasted "The single thing that draws the higher income earners to live in the downtown area are the historic buildings." is in reference to your idea of demolishing historic buildings and replacing them with new strip centers and gas stations. My comment is correct. The only high income earners living in the downtown area are living down there because of the historic nature of the area. I'm not understanding why that sentence is causing so much confusion. Now we're onto land swaps and train stations? Please find a post where I have ever supported any of that. This is really getting stretched where you keep reaching for a new topics to use in your arguments that I have never promoted on here. This all stems from you suggesting there was something special about the Sorg Mansion corner lot in that it would make a great location for a strip center and/or gas station. Forget the avalanche of other vacant lots downtown or even the empty corner lot next to the Sorg, but it was the Sorg property you really focused. I said it was silly and it is. I was never suggesting any type of business improvements downtown when this all started. I was making the point that it looked like the tax payers were being bilked for the renovations at the Sorg Mansion. You then started saying it should be torn down. Maybe you were just being provocative, but whatever it was, it didn't fly well because it made no sense. When you have a downtown that is full of vacant lots and you suggest tearing down the most expensive house ever built in Middletown to replace with cheap buildings, then you're not being serious.
Vivian, someone should call the Trinity Place office and ask them because this has been brought up before and then confirmed that they do not accept Section 8. I've called there myself and asked the last time this was debated on here. The only Section 8 accepted by any complex in that area with the word "trinity" in it is the senior housing building located next to Holy Trinity. I can't remember the name of it, but it is about 4 or 5 stories tall and built around the late 1970's or early 1980's. They don't accept just any Section 8, it is only for the type of residents that live in a care facility and need the special senior type services they provide. I'm really surprised by some of the people posting on here that keep making arguments against what nobody is suggesting. Anyone find out more information on how the historic tax credits work? The only 2 things I have been able to confirm are that Ohio historic tax credits are a refund and federal historic tax credits are not.
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council
Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 10:03am |
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“We all see what can work downtown and nobody ever acknowledges it. I've brought it up many times. Trinity Place is going on 40 years strong.”
Mr. Nagy I believe if you call the office of Trinity Place you will find they are renting to Section 8 voucher holders also. However it is a well managed and maintained complex. |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 8:39am |
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Rhodes:
"The single thing that draws the higher income earners to live in the downtown area are the historic buildings." "Leave the S Main residents alone!" I enjoy the postings of SWOhio75 and Rhodes They are factual, constructive and seldom personal; or derogatory. So--if I mis-construed intent or thinking, it may be understandable--the internet can do that, and I don't always explain myself as clearly or nicely as I think that I do. One thing that I see currently that is alarming: More long-term pillar citizens have given up and are leaving now than at any time prior. They see no real hope within their lifetimes. The current mantra hasn't worked--they admit it and have been on the front line of it. And for many of the reasons that I have beaten in to the ground recently. It seems that any vacant structure(somewhat exclusively in "THAT" area) is frantically designated as "historic", as if that will honestly make a difference in how it functions into the future. Often that designation can be a detriment to improvements and usage. I didn't want to leave my prior situation, though I had become surrounded by bad demographics even though many of my close eastern neighbors were flourishing. I do miss them, will wish them well and continue to support their ventures every day because they are well-intentioned locals who have done it on their own long-term, while our city govt.has done everything possible to create serious competition a few blocks west of them. I experienced just that with the two very costly Duncan Oil deals. So--SWOhio and Rhodes--how have the Duncan deals played out? The land swaps? The train station? Our demographics dictate dollar stores, convenience stores, swap shops and fast food, since our Section 8 generation(3rd generation 20-30yos) can't cook, won't eat healthy, won't work or stress the benefits of a free education---and the junkies/hookers need somewhere to steal, then sell their merchandise. My time was up--my building was old--my family and myself are now old. I actually stayed around too long. If you don't think that we care about the community in which we have lived and supported(and thankfully been supported by the masses), then your are seriously mis-guided. My posts above reflect a part of the economy that I know, and the balance necessary to have a mixed and functioning economy. As I said prior--we all want what will work--we just disagree as to how. |
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 8:18am |
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I concur completely with sj and Mike Presta. Having lived in historic and affluent communities, before my unfortunate migration to Middletown, I can state without hesitation, the biggest impediment Middletown has with any thoughts associated with a historic area, and downtown activity and revitalization, is the fact the roads and infratsructure have been dishonestly avoided to be maintained since 1986, and its inability to attract and retain businesses makes it an area to be avoided. Its not complicated. Middletown is an area people avoid,
For the past few weeks, I have been working in my virtual office for a few weeks, meaning, my home office. During this period of time, I have been struck at the lack of traffic in the city, especially the Rosedale, Breihel, Central, and Grand area. These roads used to be very busy, with people driving for physician appointments, professional service businesses, and general movement for house owners in Middletown, driving around to upgrade, downgrade, or move. No more. I see maybe 3-4 cars an hour on Rosedale, and mostly beat up trucks driving through once very nice, upsacle neighborhoods, looking for a lawn mower that is scrapped, or a washer/ dryer. Admittedly, this form of ecological recycling is a nice convenience, as virtually anything put out on the curb, will be taken and hauled off from someone. As the saying goes, one's garbage or broken part, is another's treasure. Tac credits mean nothing unless you have a huge tax liability and are looking for a write-off. Pople aren't buying houses for tax write offs. A house on the National Historic Register has allure and gravitous, but like trash, beauty and value is in the eye of the beholder. Frankly, there is so much ruin down property downtown, that off-sets any beauty from old victorian houses, and in particular, one like the Sorg Mansion, that looks like a house from a Dracula movie or Shanshack Redemption. It is ugly, run down, and has no appeal. Now, to any whom espouse that fixing up a strip in Middletown of old victorians is going to reincarnate the city of Middletown, coupled with the upscale apartments living at the Manchester, this will never occur. What you aren't factoring into your calculus is people fist settle into areas based upon jobs, instead of the long commute, especially in an urban area. Secondly, without road repair, and basic service amentities, there is nothing attractive nor compelling, about living in an old building, even one restored, when the roads are awful, and crumble, taxes are high, reputation is at the bottom of the pit, and numerous alternatives are abundant within 30 miles. More imporatntly, for those that think this activity downtown is worthy, and serves a purpose, I say you are nothing but an enabler, perpetuating a myth Middletown is coming back, so the city leaders and this council, shakedown countless funds, to be spread around their personal abode. Its that simple. |
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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Paul Nagy
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jan 11 2009 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 8:13am |
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The discussion about what will help downtown whether demolishing, or rehabing historic buildings or putting in other businesses is moot, in my opinion. But I hope that everyone will deeply consider the principles stated by Rhodes regarding downtown. I take them out of context here for your consideration. “I personally do not think downtown will ever improve.” “…..because of 2 specific reasons. It's geographically in a bad location and it's demographically in a bad location. The first problem can't be resolved and the 2nd problem is almost impossible to resolve.” “We all see what can work downtown and nobody ever acknowledges it. I've brought it up many times. Trinity Place is going on 40 years strong.” “ I don't mind what they do down there, I just don't like it when they dip into the hard working American paid taxes for their own benefit.” “Having said that, I really don't see the downtown area worth saving. It's not convenient. It's not safe. It smells like backed up sewer half the time.” “…..Catering to West Middletown? Excellent idea and one that has confused me over the years as to why city planners haven't done that.” These are pretty strong points for focus in other parts of the city for development instead of the millions that have been placed over the years in a losing area of our city….downtown. pn
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council
Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 8:01am |
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For
the last 15 years City Council has focused all their attention and our tax
dollars on “THEIR DOWNTOWN”. We took the roof off the City Center Mall and
started on the rebirth of Historic South Main Street. The City Council and the
Planning Department put so many restrictions on the downtown property that they
have strangled the growth of this area.
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 7:37am |
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For all of you that disagree with Spiderjohn and think that the
Sorg Mansion as a bed ‘n’ breakfast; or the opera house is some sort of great
deal; or the Manchester Inn is a wonderful investment; the Rose Building; the
Goetz Tower, etc., etc., ad nauseum…let me posit this: It’s simple, really. Consider
these sorts of deals’ biggest booster!!!
The Honorable Lawrence P. Mulligan, Jr., our exalted mayor, is the vice
president of one of the area’s largest banks.
He consistently gets “excited” whenever he hears of any
whisper of such a deal by someone else. It should be a piece of cake for anyone who
wants to embark on such a venture to sashay on down to the mayor’s bank and
easily get a signature loan for whatever amount is necessary for such a deal,
backed only by the “sure-fire” nature of these “Historic-build-it-and-they-will-come-with-fistsfull-of-dollars”
ventures, correct-o-mundo??? So why don’t all these folks go to our mayor and have his
bank lend them the venture capital for these “can’t miss” deals??? Better yet, why doesn’t Lawrence P. and his
banker buddies scoop up all these opportunities themselves??? Why??? I’ll tell you why!!! If ol’ Larry ever brought one of these deals
to his bank’s loan committee, they not only would laugh him right out of the
room…they would also boot his butt out of the door, probably never to be hired
in the mainstream banking industry again…that’s why!!! Think I’m wrong???
Show us one…just one…of these deals that ol’ Lar has ever agreed to take to
his bank’s loan committee with HIS recommendation!!!! (I'll just sit aside and wait quietly until someone shows me such a deal.) |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Rhodes
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 12:16am |
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Sj, I hate to have to come on here and correct things I didn't say.
I never said historic homes bring in visitors or spending. You took "Leave the downtowners alone" completely out of context. That was clearly in reference to your idea of demolishing the Sorg Mansion property and putting in a strip center and/or gas station as though that would improve the historic district area. I've never condoned the spending of tax money, whether through grants or any other method for private gain. I'm not really for it for commercial gain unless it is something really over the top that would be a tourist attraction. I don't have a problem with the speed limit being lowered and I don't have a problem with any street in Middletown being paved. I don't understand why the city doesn't find a way to budget so that all the streets are routinely maintained. That's the biggest sore spot that residents have, at least that's the biggest complaint I ever hear. I was never for the street lamps, but the owners down there are the ones being assessed for the costs. I think Mike Presta got that one right. Middletown never did have those types of street lights so to be more accurate they should have been like the ones in all the old black and white photos. Having said that, the ones they installed look cheap to me, like a downgraded version of the ones in places like Lebanon. I've never said or insinuated that there will ever be upscale businesses in downtown Middletown. I think anyone who thinks that will happen needs to check in somewhere. I've made many comments on this site as to what I think would work downtown. As I said above, copy what has already worked... Trinity Place. As I've said in the past, if the city wants a lot of people downtown, then make it appealing to the types of people that live in Middletown. I'm sure the Bash was packed with a few thousand people tonight. They manage to do that without PAC or restaurants or art classes. Back to the Sorg... I think where you get it wrong is you won't let go of a bad idea. You spent your last paragraph talking about upscale businesses would never work in downtown Middletown for the same reasons I believe. Then you turn around and say that thinking a bed and breakfast at the Sorg is better than upscale retail in the same neighborhood is laughable. No, it's not laughable. I don't think either one would work ,but a bed and breakfast would work way better than bringing in upscale retail to downtown Middletown. There actually isn't any place in Middletown that could support an upscale retail store. That's why all the people in Middletown with money are always going out of town. It's kind of always been that way. Not to pick at you over your former store being sold or leased or whatever happened with it, but the measure of any community can be assessed by the number of those dollar stores. They're all over Middletown. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen any community in all of Southwestern Ohio with as many dollar stores as Middletown has. Just to make it clear, if I didn't already, I do not support spending hard working tax dollars on pet projects of any kind. So much money has been wasted downtown by people that want to recreate a vibrant downtown that doesn't exist anymore. When it did exist, it wasn't historic, it was modern and the way things were done.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 9:28pm |
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Rhodes--the thinking that approx. a dozen old and somewhat attractive houses(maybe 5?) on S Main St. attract serious visitors and spending to this city(especially to reside in that area) is equally "amusing" to me. If that were truly to be the case, the former downtown area would be thriving, instead of on perpetual life support.
And you say to "Leave those residents alone"? I say that those residents absolutely need to leave all other citizens alone! Years ago, a city employee living in that area siphoned off considerable HUD money for home improvements on these "historic" homes at the expense of the needy. These recipients re-paid that employee by working on the pavement laying of the employee's driveway, which action was front-paged in the MJ. Wouldn't this kind of activity be illegal by both parties? We paid to re-pave their street(but only up to 9th Ave.) and lower the speed limit there to 25mph. We also helped pay for the new "pseudo historic" street lamps, while the old lamping is still in place and in operation I believe. So--we are in essence, paying for the power to the old lamps AND the new lamps(4x power used as compared to the old?). If I am wrong on any of this, please correct me--as I have honest intention and in no way want to post false accusations. Y'all want nice, upscale businesses with quality products and services, yet you expect top quality businesses to settle for 2nd-rate bad location/demographic real estate(as SWOhio showed in his photo). It won't happen. It didn't work in the original city centre mall and it won't work now. Top quality businesses want top quality locations and demographics. The thinking that a bed/breakfast at that old mansion is better than upscale retail in that neighborhood is laughable imo. Face it--Middletown is only "historic" to a small group trying to cash in on it at the expense of others. We simply disagree-- |
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Historic House Guy
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Joined: Jul 28 2013 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 272 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 6:02pm |
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I'm obviously excited for them. Since the building is privately owned they aren't eligible for grants. I had a chance to get up close to it today. Would love to restore those windows.
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Rhodes
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Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 5:29pm |
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** "dumbest" wasn't probably the most polite way I could have said that. Ill thought out would probably be better.
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Rhodes
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Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 5:17pm |
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Sj, I normally agree with most of what you post, but I really think this is one of the dumbest suggestions I have ever heard. The single thing that draws the higher income earners to live in the downtown area are the historic buildings. Suggesting demolition of buildings that are not falling down in order to put up new strip centers and gas stations is really wasting time on here. I can't take this serious because no sound minded business person would ever suggest something that out of whack. I suppose your idea for these new buildings are all top of the line materials too, right? Even though we know that isn't going to happen ever in downtown Middletown when it comes to new construction. So your suggestion for revitalizing downtown is to tear down what draws people to the downtown and replace with sub-standard building materials, which are common in Middletown today.
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spiderjohn
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Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 4:45pm |
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imo your map property is too far away from the core income residential, SWO75
Both sides of the corner where the mansion is located are perfect to play within walking distance from the key S Main residents, + the road flows there from the bridge. Actually the tennis club is ?able to remain. The whole other side block down to the current nfl Broadway news can go also. That mansion has been nothing but an eyesore and nuisance for decades. Allowed to deteriorate structurally, and filled with hookers, crackheads and dope dealers. If it was honestly worth saving, it would have been done by now. There has been no positive history there throughout my lifetime. A bed/breakfast serves no real public purpose, and why would anyone stay there? To do what? To go where? A serious waste of huge tax $$$ imo and for private interest? How much would you pay to stay there?
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Paul Nagy
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Joined: Jan 11 2009 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 4:41pm |
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Rhodes,
Your thinking is quite sound and makes very good sense. It is the simplest and best summary of the downtown situation that has been presented here. Thank you. pn |
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Rhodes
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Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 3:24pm |
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I never said I thought the downtown should cater to the young. The idea that part of the problem will be solved by demolishing a popular landmark structure is just silly. Sorry, but it is. It's a relic of the last industrial revolution. It's an incredible piece of artwork. This doesn't mean I agree with tax dollars going towards it. I've posted numerous times that I oppose that. I'm just making the comment that it is ridiculous to suggest that demolishing such a magnificent property is somehow going to improve downtown. I personally do not think downtown will ever improve. It's not because of fresh markets or the right restaurants aren't down there. It's because of 2 specific reasons. It's geographically in a bad location and it's demographically in a bad location. The first problem can't be resolved and the 2nd problem is almost impossible to resolve.
Leave the downtowners alone in whatever preservation they can accomplish. I don't mind what they do down there, I just don't like it when they dip into the hard working American paid taxes for their own benefit. The "at least we tried" mantra needs to come to an end. We all see what can work downtown and nobody ever acknowledges it. I've brought it up many times. Trinity Place is going on 40 years strong. That's a successful community. Having said that, I really don't see the downtown area worth saving. It's not convenient. It's not safe. It smells like backed up sewer half the time. If you want to experiment with fresh markets and super sized gas stations, there are numerous vacant lots downtown. Have your pick, but the discussion goes nowhere when the suggestion is to tear down the Sorg Mansion as though that one corner will save downtown. That's just about as bad as any of the suggestions the city comes up with on a regular basis. Catering to West Middletown? Excellent idea and one that has confused me over the years as to why city planners haven't done that.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 3:01pm |
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OK SWO75 and Rhodes----I will explain why I disagree with your last statements(not really backed up by anything).
Our town needs BALANCE and AMENITIES---two things that the S Main/former downtown area people want(often behind the scene). We have plenty of old/historic already, and little of it generates jobs, income or traffic. Losing one old expensive mess like the Sorg Mansion, to be replaced by attractive fresh meats/produce and necessary staples + the surrounding area with more fuel and restaurants/quick food in NEW attractive buildings would definitely spike interest in the area. Don't you want to draw from the good income W Middietown people BEFORE you lose them(and others) to similar amenities/services developing on the other side? Plus--there is much more to the resident area than S Main, and this type of activity could spark improvement of surrounding streets. One of the key reasons upscale potential residents avoid this area is the lack of above. Why spend serious $$ to live there and appreciate a home value when you have to travel a distance to purchase virtually everything? Sure--we have plenty of empty storefronts in the area, and for good reason. No one of substance wants to locate there because these facades are little more than "lipstick on a pig" due to their repeated "façade improvements. Stain?--gone At the Square?--gone Liberty?--gone Pendleton delis?--gone Manchester dining?--gone BBQ and Cajun across from Beau Verre?--gone and gone and gone Bicentennial Commons?--gone(checked on your bricks lately?) The best artist in that area?--gone 20s and young 30s demographic is a VERY fickle group. What they say and what they support with their limited income(while living at home mostly) are usually quite different and changing. How many do you see @ Murphy's Landing? First Fridays? Not as many as you see @ Stefano's or Java Johnny's. Plus--a small business center brings jobs and traffic. Maybe small and low-paying at first, but hopefully growing and developing young enterprueners. Face it, young "White Flight" has been here for more than a decade for obvious reasons. If they patronize older/historic areas it is because it is near where they live and work. And as Bill eloquently stated--"Historic" around here now means too cheap to pay for it themselves, and far too costly to be sustainable. People aren't rushing to buy property in the area, which our city govt.has already deemed less than worthless--Why? Historic is already there, though very poorly maintained. We simply have to trade off some of the excess "historic" blight to make anything realistic happen. jmo |
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