SORG MANSION TAX CREDIT
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: Economic Development
Forum Description: Local government efforts to develop the local Middletown area economy.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5784
Printed Date: May 06 2024 at 1:36pm
Topic: SORG MANSION TAX CREDIT
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Subject: SORG MANSION TAX CREDIT
Date Posted: Jun 24 2014 at 2:33pm
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Posted:
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Replies:
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 24 2014 at 4:23pm
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What about the historic tax credits for
the other restorations of: |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 24 2014 at 5:40pm
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What about the historic tax credits for the other restorations of: The Rose Furniture Building + $300,000 city taxpayer funded "façade improvements"--road was blocked totally for 2 months--one lane months longer--any time frame on this "improvement + the 1-1.5 million $$ supposed to be put in to this property by the new owner?--never see anyone working--why no congencies put on this deal? The Ewing Building Allegedly Ewings were payed well for this property--have the promised repairs been made? The Sorg Opera House Seems quiet on that front since the large grant $$ was denied. The exterior is a mess--interior can't be much better--private purchase though mostly funded by donations and tax $$--?--never see anyone working--why no congencies put on this deal? Goetz Tower--?--never see anyone working--why no congencies put on this deal? Sonshine Building Manchester Inn Are these two parcels tied together? POSSIBLE new owner is going to put 10+ million $$ into this property, and the ballroom will not be a part? 1-2 bedroom condos or apartments?--due diligence?---$10+ million payback how?--our tax $$ again obviously Face it--the Sorg family built large, dis-functional, high maintenance un-attractive properties that should probably be leveled instead of saved. The $$ involved in fixing any of this for private entities is probably taxpayer $$ not well-spent. Our community and country has far greater concerns and responsibilities imo do you see anything like this going on in any other needy area of our city? groundhog day deja vu all over again new people come in to town wanting to do the same things that have been done multiple times prior(always at our expense for their whim), Just because they are new does not make the same tried concept new again. |
Posted By: 409
Date Posted: Jun 24 2014 at 6:15pm
  ------------- Every morning is the dawn of a new error... |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 24 2014 at 10:14pm
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If anyone can explain historic tax credits, I'd love to know how they work. I did a little research on the topic today and unless I'm misunderstanding, it's basically a refund when a property owner files their taxes the following year. So it's a credit in their favor, otherwise a refund check. Am I understanding this correctly? The state limits it to 25% of costs, but a property owner can then apply for federal tax credits upwards of 45% of the costs of a project like this. I noticed in the recent article the projected costs of this project are now at $1.3 million whereas before any time the new owners are quoted in the paper they say it is around $400,000 - 600,000. Looks like they doubled the cost they claimed. If my math is correct and they are successful with federal tax credits, wouldn't that make their rehabilitation costs closer to zero? Wouldn't that mean in the end they end up paying $225,000 for the property and the tax payer ends up paying for their renovation costs in full? Also, from what I could find out, any property receiving historic tax credits can not be owner occupied in any manner. If I read that correctly, why do these new owners of the Sorg Mansion keep saying they're going to move into this property? Wouldn't they be barred from doing so since it appears that is against the historic tax credit rules? As for the other properties that haven't been approved, it looks like the new owners of the Sorg Mansion know how to work the system in order to get approval. Since they are using their own money initially instead of what appears to be a group of others begging for donations, they have really demonstrated how to start a project and get it under way. If I am correct on how these tax credits work, I'm totally against anyone using tax money paid by hard working Americans for this type of usage. People do not work their butts off so others can sweep in and use tax money for financial gain. Would love to know the answers as to how this process works if anybody knows.
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 9:03am
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What about the historic tax credits for
the other restorations of: The Rose Furniture Building -> The roof may, I am not certain, impact their ability to use tax credits, especially if they are going to only save the facade.
The
The Sorg Opera House -> Not sure they applied? Goetz Tower -> Not sure they applied? Sonshine Building - > Not currently eligible because it is not individually listed on the NRHP or part of a district that is Manchester Inn - > Not currently eligible because it is not individually listed on the NRHP or part of a district that is |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 9:05am
Yes SpiderJohn, I find this property completely unattractive! |
409 wrote:Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 9:06am
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Sorg Mansion is prominently featured in the Enquirer story about this news http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2014/06/24/local-projects-win-state-tax-credits/11305819/ |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 12:09pm
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I assume you to be sarcastic, SWO75 Honestly I see nothing attractive in either the Opera House properties or the Mansion, other than the tremendous opportunities to use the real estate for something new and attractive to the immediate neighborhood and to bring younger, upscale people in to that area. I have lived here for 60+ years--the Opera House has never been anything but a 3rd rate venue(Colonial Theater) with nothing of value or historic in any of the connected buildings. I don't find the Mansion attractive at all, though I have never been inside. Both properties have been left to deteriorate to the point where it now takes a ridiculous amount of $$(taxpayer of course!) to bring either back to anything. And neither improved property will benefit everyone, only a select few. Hardly the necessary bang for the buck. When I look at the Mansion complex, I see a very valuable corner that could be a true cornerstone/re-birth of the area IF it featured a ssmall multi-use strip center featuring the much-requested/desired fresh food market, small dining centers(chain and private), a pharmacy etc. with the corner across used as a fuel center. IMO this type of activity would spur more positive economic resurgence in the area than a bed/breakfast @ an enormous public expense. It could also draw from directly across the W Middletown bridge, where there is currently nothing for those on the other side of the river. If this doesn't happen, a similar complex will eventually happen on the other side, eliminating any reason to cross the bridge in to Middietown. This concept would probably also be less expensive and involve less public $$. Just look at the success of the UDF stand-alone facility. A Broadway News type facility could be incorporated, while the current site + the American Legion property could be razed. The $$ desired to be put in to the Opera House will result in exactly what? A very expensive entertainment venue/complex for ??? Opera has been proven not to work--the location/size prohibits any major entertainment acts from coming in. Level the whole block to create a new experience for a new breed of citizens/residents and to retain some of our best/brightest. IMO there is no real attraction to what is going on down there now. If you want younger upscale singles and families to reside and visit the area, you have to give them new, nice and exciting instead of old re-cycled sos. In the long run(to which we are seriously referring), this is the only way that any of this re-do could work. I respect your demeanor and thinking--- Where am I wrong? |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 12:38pm
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Exactly, SJ. Older folks don't seem to understand that by and large the younger demographic wants new and fresh, not old and recycled. All of this historic preservation nonsense is about a small group of people wanting to live out their dreams without paying for it. And they desperately trot out some study or article which supports their claim that funding their dream will have economic benefits. Rarely do these economic benefits materialize. And when they don't the answer is always...more funding to "get it right".
Someone should show the pictures of the Sorg mansion to 100 people under 30 years old and ask for their reaction. My guess -- 90% negative, 10% positive.
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 1:31pm
I'd really like to see research that indicates this. Because everything I've read is to the contrary of your statements Gen Y.2 (under 30) prefer Urban Living, which his a mix of old and new (see Banks and OTR in Cincinnati). Even "new and fresh" often receive tax incentives. |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 1:32pm
An easy work-around to this would be to use the main house as the B&B and then live in either the servants house or the carriage house. |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 1:45pm
| swohio75 is right. Under 30 likes revived older urban type areas. I'm surprised anyone doesn't know this. I'm also trying to figure out why anyone would think demolition of the Sorg Mansion and replacing it with a strip center or UDF like business would be a boost downtown. A boost for what? More people lined up with their EBT cards? Vacant lots all over downtown if anyone wants to cater to that crowd. That is not how you turn a downtown around. |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 2:29pm
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409 - I think I have said this before, but I forgot your response. I love the images you upload on here, but please find a way to increase the size. They are so small. They can't even be enlarged without heavily distorting them. Is this an issue with your camera on the wrong settings? There are many options online to store large photos without eating up storage space, if that is the problem. Or are they already large, but you condense them for this web site?
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 2:39pm
Aesthetics is a matter of personal opinion, preferences and taste. So you aren't wrong if you don't find the structures personally appealing. From my perspective, they hold significant historical value and architectural interest which could not easily be duplicated today. Now, if there is area that is ripe for redevelopment and demo, it would be most of Verity Pkwy between Tytus and Reinartz  |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 3:01pm
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OK SWO75 and Rhodes----I will explain why I disagree with your last statements(not really backed up by anything). Our town needs BALANCE and AMENITIES---two things that the S Main/former downtown area people want(often behind the scene). We have plenty of old/historic already, and little of it generates jobs, income or traffic. Losing one old expensive mess like the Sorg Mansion, to be replaced by attractive fresh meats/produce and necessary staples + the surrounding area with more fuel and restaurants/quick food in NEW attractive buildings would definitely spike interest in the area. Don't you want to draw from the good income W Middietown people BEFORE you lose them(and others) to similar amenities/services developing on the other side? Plus--there is much more to the resident area than S Main, and this type of activity could spark improvement of surrounding streets. One of the key reasons upscale potential residents avoid this area is the lack of above. Why spend serious $$ to live there and appreciate a home value when you have to travel a distance to purchase virtually everything? Sure--we have plenty of empty storefronts in the area, and for good reason. No one of substance wants to locate there because these facades are little more than "lipstick on a pig" due to their repeated "façade improvements. Stain?--gone At the Square?--gone Liberty?--gone Pendleton delis?--gone Manchester dining?--gone BBQ and Cajun across from Beau Verre?--gone and gone and gone Bicentennial Commons?--gone(checked on your bricks lately?) The best artist in that area?--gone 20s and young 30s demographic is a VERY fickle group. What they say and what they support with their limited income(while living at home mostly) are usually quite different and changing. How many do you see @ Murphy's Landing? First Fridays? Not as many as you see @ Stefano's or Java Johnny's. Plus--a small business center brings jobs and traffic. Maybe small and low-paying at first, but hopefully growing and developing young enterprueners. Face it, young "White Flight" has been here for more than a decade for obvious reasons. If they patronize older/historic areas it is because it is near where they live and work. And as Bill eloquently stated--"Historic" around here now means too cheap to pay for it themselves, and far too costly to be sustainable. People aren't rushing to buy property in the area, which our city govt.has already deemed less than worthless--Why? Historic is already there, though very poorly maintained. We simply have to trade off some of the excess "historic" blight to make anything realistic happen. jmo |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 3:24pm
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I never said I thought the downtown should cater to the young. The idea that part of the problem will be solved by demolishing a popular landmark structure is just silly. Sorry, but it is. It's a relic of the last industrial revolution. It's an incredible piece of artwork. This doesn't mean I agree with tax dollars going towards it. I've posted numerous times that I oppose that. I'm just making the comment that it is ridiculous to suggest that demolishing such a magnificent property is somehow going to improve downtown. I personally do not think downtown will ever improve. It's not because of fresh markets or the right restaurants aren't down there. It's because of 2 specific reasons. It's geographically in a bad location and it's demographically in a bad location. The first problem can't be resolved and the 2nd problem is almost impossible to resolve. Leave the downtowners alone in whatever preservation they can accomplish. I don't mind what they do down there, I just don't like it when they dip into the hard working American paid taxes for their own benefit. The "at least we tried" mantra needs to come to an end. We all see what can work downtown and nobody ever acknowledges it. I've brought it up many times. Trinity Place is going on 40 years strong. That's a successful community. Having said that, I really don't see the downtown area worth saving. It's not convenient. It's not safe. It smells like backed up sewer half the time. If you want to experiment with fresh markets and super sized gas stations, there are numerous vacant lots downtown. Have your pick, but the discussion goes nowhere when the suggestion is to tear down the Sorg Mansion as though that one corner will save downtown. That's just about as bad as any of the suggestions the city comes up with on a regular basis. Catering to West Middletown? Excellent idea and one that has confused me over the years as to why city planners haven't done that.
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Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 4:41pm
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Rhodes, Your thinking is quite sound and makes very good sense. It is the simplest and best summary of the downtown situation that has been presented here. Thank you. pn |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 4:45pm
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imo your map property is too far away from the core income residential, SWO75 Both sides of the corner where the mansion is located are perfect to play within walking distance from the key S Main residents, + the road flows there from the bridge. Actually the tennis club is ?able to remain. The whole other side block down to the current nfl Broadway news can go also. That mansion has been nothing but an eyesore and nuisance for decades. Allowed to deteriorate structurally, and filled with hookers, crackheads and dope dealers. If it was honestly worth saving, it would have been done by now. There has been no positive history there throughout my lifetime. A bed/breakfast serves no real public purpose, and why would anyone stay there? To do what? To go where? A serious waste of huge tax $$$ imo and for private interest? How much would you pay to stay there?
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Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 5:17pm
| Sj, I normally agree with most of what you post, but I really think this is one of the dumbest suggestions I have ever heard. The single thing that draws the higher income earners to live in the downtown area are the historic buildings. Suggesting demolition of buildings that are not falling down in order to put up new strip centers and gas stations is really wasting time on here. I can't take this serious because no sound minded business person would ever suggest something that out of whack. I suppose your idea for these new buildings are all top of the line materials too, right? Even though we know that isn't going to happen ever in downtown Middletown when it comes to new construction. So your suggestion for revitalizing downtown is to tear down what draws people to the downtown and replace with sub-standard building materials, which are common in Middletown today. |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 5:29pm
| ** "dumbest" wasn't probably the most polite way I could have said that. Ill thought out would probably be better. |
Posted By: Historic House Guy
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 6:02pm
I'm obviously excited for them. Since the building is privately owned they aren't eligible for grants. I had a chance to get up close to it today. Would love to restore those windows.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 9:28pm
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Rhodes--the thinking that approx. a dozen old and somewhat attractive houses(maybe 5?) on S Main St. attract serious visitors and spending to this city(especially to reside in that area) is equally "amusing" to me. If that were truly to be the case, the former downtown area would be thriving, instead of on perpetual life support. And you say to "Leave those residents alone"? I say that those residents absolutely need to leave all other citizens alone! Years ago, a city employee living in that area siphoned off considerable HUD money for home improvements on these "historic" homes at the expense of the needy. These recipients re-paid that employee by working on the pavement laying of the employee's driveway, which action was front-paged in the MJ. Wouldn't this kind of activity be illegal by both parties? We paid to re-pave their street(but only up to 9th Ave.) and lower the speed limit there to 25mph. We also helped pay for the new "pseudo historic" street lamps, while the old lamping is still in place and in operation I believe. So--we are in essence, paying for the power to the old lamps AND the new lamps(4x power used as compared to the old?). If I am wrong on any of this, please correct me--as I have honest intention and in no way want to post false accusations. Y'all want nice, upscale businesses with quality products and services, yet you expect top quality businesses to settle for 2nd-rate bad location/demographic real estate(as SWOhio showed in his photo). It won't happen. It didn't work in the original city centre mall and it won't work now. Top quality businesses want top quality locations and demographics. The thinking that a bed/breakfast at that old mansion is better than upscale retail in that neighborhood is laughable imo. Face it--Middletown is only "historic" to a small group trying to cash in on it at the expense of others. We simply disagree-- |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 12:16am
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Sj, I hate to have to come on here and correct things I didn't say. I never said historic homes bring in visitors or spending. You took "Leave the downtowners alone" completely out of context. That was clearly in reference to your idea of demolishing the Sorg Mansion property and putting in a strip center and/or gas station as though that would improve the historic district area. I've never condoned the spending of tax money, whether through grants or any other method for private gain. I'm not really for it for commercial gain unless it is something really over the top that would be a tourist attraction. I don't have a problem with the speed limit being lowered and I don't have a problem with any street in Middletown being paved. I don't understand why the city doesn't find a way to budget so that all the streets are routinely maintained. That's the biggest sore spot that residents have, at least that's the biggest complaint I ever hear. I was never for the street lamps, but the owners down there are the ones being assessed for the costs. I think Mike Presta got that one right. Middletown never did have those types of street lights so to be more accurate they should have been like the ones in all the old black and white photos. Having said that, the ones they installed look cheap to me, like a downgraded version of the ones in places like Lebanon. I've never said or insinuated that there will ever be upscale businesses in downtown Middletown. I think anyone who thinks that will happen needs to check in somewhere. I've made many comments on this site as to what I think would work downtown. As I said above, copy what has already worked... Trinity Place. As I've said in the past, if the city wants a lot of people downtown, then make it appealing to the types of people that live in Middletown. I'm sure the Bash was packed with a few thousand people tonight. They manage to do that without PAC or restaurants or art classes. Back to the Sorg... I think where you get it wrong is you won't let go of a bad idea. You spent your last paragraph talking about upscale businesses would never work in downtown Middletown for the same reasons I believe. Then you turn around and say that thinking a bed and breakfast at the Sorg is better than upscale retail in the same neighborhood is laughable. No, it's not laughable. I don't think either one would work ,but a bed and breakfast would work way better than bringing in upscale retail to downtown Middletown. There actually isn't any place in Middletown that could support an upscale retail store. That's why all the people in Middletown with money are always going out of town. It's kind of always been that way. Not to pick at you over your former store being sold or leased or whatever happened with it, but the measure of any community can be assessed by the number of those dollar stores. They're all over Middletown. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen any community in all of Southwestern Ohio with as many dollar stores as Middletown has. Just to make it clear, if I didn't already, I do not support spending hard working tax dollars on pet projects of any kind. So much money has been wasted downtown by people that want to recreate a vibrant downtown that doesn't exist anymore. When it did exist, it wasn't historic, it was modern and the way things were done.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 7:37am
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For all of you that disagree with Spiderjohn and think that the
Sorg Mansion as a bed ‘n’ breakfast; or the opera house is some sort of great
deal; or the Manchester Inn is a wonderful investment; the Rose Building; the
Goetz Tower, etc., etc., ad nauseum…let me posit this: It’s simple, really. Consider
these sorts of deals’ biggest booster!!!
The Honorable Lawrence P. Mulligan, Jr., our exalted mayor, is the vice
president of one of the area’s largest banks.
He consistently gets “excited” whenever he hears of any
whisper of such a deal by someone else. It should be a piece of cake for anyone who
wants to embark on such a venture to sashay on down to the mayor’s bank and
easily get a signature loan for whatever amount is necessary for such a deal,
backed only by the “sure-fire” nature of these “Historic-build-it-and-they-will-come-with-fistsfull-of-dollars”
ventures, correct-o-mundo??? So why don’t all these folks go to our mayor and have his
bank lend them the venture capital for these “can’t miss” deals??? Better yet, why doesn’t Lawrence P. and his
banker buddies scoop up all these opportunities themselves??? Why??? I’ll tell you why!!! If ol’ Larry ever brought one of these deals
to his bank’s loan committee, they not only would laugh him right out of the
room…they would also boot his butt out of the door, probably never to be hired
in the mainstream banking industry again…that’s why!!! Think I’m wrong???
Show us one…just one…of these deals that ol’ Lar has ever agreed to take to
his bank’s loan committee with HIS recommendation!!!! (I'll just sit aside and wait quietly until someone shows me such a deal.) ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 8:01am
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For
the last 15 years City Council has focused all their attention and our tax
dollars on “THEIR DOWNTOWN”. We took the roof off the City Center Mall and
started on the rebirth of Historic South Main Street. The City Council and the
Planning Department put so many restrictions on the downtown property that they
have strangled the growth of this area.
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Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 8:13am
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The discussion about what will help downtown whether demolishing, or rehabing historic buildings or putting in other businesses is moot, in my opinion. But I hope that everyone will deeply consider the principles stated by Rhodes regarding downtown. I take them out of context here for your consideration. “I personally do not think downtown will ever improve.” “…..because of 2 specific reasons. It's geographically in a bad location and it's demographically in a bad location. The first problem can't be resolved and the 2nd problem is almost impossible to resolve.” “We all see what can work downtown and nobody ever acknowledges it. I've brought it up many times. Trinity Place is going on 40 years strong.” “ I don't mind what they do down there, I just don't like it when they dip into the hard working American paid taxes for their own benefit.” “Having said that, I really don't see the downtown area worth saving. It's not convenient. It's not safe. It smells like backed up sewer half the time.” “…..Catering to West Middletown? Excellent idea and one that has confused me over the years as to why city planners haven't done that.” These are pretty strong points for focus in other parts of the city for development instead of the millions that have been placed over the years in a losing area of our city….downtown. pn
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 8:18am
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I concur completely with sj and Mike Presta. Having lived in historic and affluent communities, before my unfortunate migration to Middletown, I can state without hesitation, the biggest impediment Middletown has with any thoughts associated with a historic area, and downtown activity and revitalization, is the fact the roads and infratsructure have been dishonestly avoided to be maintained since 1986, and its inability to attract and retain businesses makes it an area to be avoided. Its not complicated. Middletown is an area people avoid, For the past few weeks, I have been working in my virtual office for a few weeks, meaning, my home office. During this period of time, I have been struck at the lack of traffic in the city, especially the Rosedale, Breihel, Central, and Grand area. These roads used to be very busy, with people driving for physician appointments, professional service businesses, and general movement for house owners in Middletown, driving around to upgrade, downgrade, or move. No more. I see maybe 3-4 cars an hour on Rosedale, and mostly beat up trucks driving through once very nice, upsacle neighborhoods, looking for a lawn mower that is scrapped, or a washer/ dryer. Admittedly, this form of ecological recycling is a nice convenience, as virtually anything put out on the curb, will be taken and hauled off from someone. As the saying goes, one's garbage or broken part, is another's treasure. Tac credits mean nothing unless you have a huge tax liability and are looking for a write-off. Pople aren't buying houses for tax write offs. A house on the National Historic Register has allure and gravitous, but like trash, beauty and value is in the eye of the beholder. Frankly, there is so much ruin down property downtown, that off-sets any beauty from old victorian houses, and in particular, one like the Sorg Mansion, that looks like a house from a Dracula movie or Shanshack Redemption. It is ugly, run down, and has no appeal. Now, to any whom espouse that fixing up a strip in Middletown of old victorians is going to reincarnate the city of Middletown, coupled with the upscale apartments living at the Manchester, this will never occur. What you aren't factoring into your calculus is people fist settle into areas based upon jobs, instead of the long commute, especially in an urban area. Secondly, without road repair, and basic service amentities, there is nothing attractive nor compelling, about living in an old building, even one restored, when the roads are awful, and crumble, taxes are high, reputation is at the bottom of the pit, and numerous alternatives are abundant within 30 miles. More imporatntly, for those that think this activity downtown is worthy, and serves a purpose, I say you are nothing but an enabler, perpetuating a myth Middletown is coming back, so the city leaders and this council, shakedown countless funds, to be spread around their personal abode. Its that simple. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 8:39am
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Rhodes: "The single thing that draws the higher income earners to live in the downtown area are the historic buildings." "Leave the S Main residents alone!" I enjoy the postings of SWOhio75 and Rhodes They are factual, constructive and seldom personal; or derogatory. So--if I mis-construed intent or thinking, it may be understandable--the internet can do that, and I don't always explain myself as clearly or nicely as I think that I do. One thing that I see currently that is alarming: More long-term pillar citizens have given up and are leaving now than at any time prior. They see no real hope within their lifetimes. The current mantra hasn't worked--they admit it and have been on the front line of it. And for many of the reasons that I have beaten in to the ground recently. It seems that any vacant structure(somewhat exclusively in "THAT" area) is frantically designated as "historic", as if that will honestly make a difference in how it functions into the future. Often that designation can be a detriment to improvements and usage. I didn't want to leave my prior situation, though I had become surrounded by bad demographics even though many of my close eastern neighbors were flourishing. I do miss them, will wish them well and continue to support their ventures every day because they are well-intentioned locals who have done it on their own long-term, while our city govt.has done everything possible to create serious competition a few blocks west of them. I experienced just that with the two very costly Duncan Oil deals. So--SWOhio and Rhodes--how have the Duncan deals played out? The land swaps? The train station? Our demographics dictate dollar stores, convenience stores, swap shops and fast food, since our Section 8 generation(3rd generation 20-30yos) can't cook, won't eat healthy, won't work or stress the benefits of a free education---and the junkies/hookers need somewhere to steal, then sell their merchandise. My time was up--my building was old--my family and myself are now old. I actually stayed around too long. If you don't think that we care about the community in which we have lived and supported(and thankfully been supported by the masses), then your are seriously mis-guided. My posts above reflect a part of the economy that I know, and the balance necessary to have a mixed and functioning economy. As I said prior--we all want what will work--we just disagree as to how. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 10:03am
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“We all see what can work downtown and nobody ever acknowledges it. I've brought it up many times. Trinity Place is going on 40 years strong.” Mr. Nagy I believe if you call the office of Trinity Place you will find they are renting to Section 8 voucher holders also. However it is a well managed and maintained complex. |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 12:46pm
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Sj, the line you pasted "The single thing that draws the higher income earners to live in the downtown area are the historic buildings." is in reference to your idea of demolishing historic buildings and replacing them with new strip centers and gas stations. My comment is correct. The only high income earners living in the downtown area are living down there because of the historic nature of the area. I'm not understanding why that sentence is causing so much confusion. Now we're onto land swaps and train stations? Please find a post where I have ever supported any of that. This is really getting stretched where you keep reaching for a new topics to use in your arguments that I have never promoted on here. This all stems from you suggesting there was something special about the Sorg Mansion corner lot in that it would make a great location for a strip center and/or gas station. Forget the avalanche of other vacant lots downtown or even the empty corner lot next to the Sorg, but it was the Sorg property you really focused. I said it was silly and it is. I was never suggesting any type of business improvements downtown when this all started. I was making the point that it looked like the tax payers were being bilked for the renovations at the Sorg Mansion. You then started saying it should be torn down. Maybe you were just being provocative, but whatever it was, it didn't fly well because it made no sense. When you have a downtown that is full of vacant lots and you suggest tearing down the most expensive house ever built in Middletown to replace with cheap buildings, then you're not being serious. Vivian, someone should call the Trinity Place office and ask them because this has been brought up before and then confirmed that they do not accept Section 8. I've called there myself and asked the last time this was debated on here. The only Section 8 accepted by any complex in that area with the word "trinity" in it is the senior housing building located next to Holy Trinity. I can't remember the name of it, but it is about 4 or 5 stories tall and built around the late 1970's or early 1980's. They don't accept just any Section 8, it is only for the type of residents that live in a care facility and need the special senior type services they provide. I'm really surprised by some of the people posting on here that keep making arguments against what nobody is suggesting. Anyone find out more information on how the historic tax credits work? The only 2 things I have been able to confirm are that Ohio historic tax credits are a refund and federal historic tax credits are not.
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 3:37pm
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All of the feasibility studies that have been completed over the past 15 years have all stated that downtown will need a major draw to be successful. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 3:38pm
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We view the Sorg Mansion property differently. I was hardly mentioning a cheaply done strip center. I was thinking quality associated with the adjacent re-conditioned properties. I am talking attractive high-quality goods and services. Lord knows that we have enough low-level options. That location is dead-center to best serve the largest capable consumer neighborhood close by--and the block across is prime for re-development. We all want the area to become more attractive, and to do so pribvately without taxpayer expense. Face it--the Mansion will remain--poor condition and we will probably pay for it's restoration for private use and still never be invited inside. Sorry--a major waste and missed opportunity in my eyes.. YOU made this somewhat personal by mentioning my business situation in to this mix. I explained a few related situations, and imo all of these issues tie together in the big picture. People are beyond sick of hearing about the former downtown and S Main, believe me. It is only important to those with a stake there. Just being provocative? Try innovative. Old things in that state of dis-repair get demoed rather than millions to re-do. Try sensible and realistic. Expensively re-habilitating dilapidated structures to serve no cost-justifiable purpose is what makes no sense, and we seem to be doing just that repetitively. You seem to be an honorable sensible citizen, Rhodes, but we are not on the same page. So--time to join my friends---- <object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="//www.youtube.com/v/xBe8ilDjEJs?version=3&hl=en_GB&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="//www.youtube.com/v/xBe8ilDjEJs?version=3&hl=en_GB&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object> |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 4:02pm
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May I say something? I am sick of hearing of South Main, and downtown non revitalization. Thank you. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 5:50pm
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Sj, it's not a matter of how the Sorg Mansion property is viewed as whether it is worthy of existence or not. You made a claim that that was a corner that could change the downtown. I didn't make anything personal because you have openly discussed your store going the dollar route. The only reason I made a reference to it was so that I could continue on about the huge amount of dollar stores that are already in Middletown. There was no way for me to make that point without mentioning your situation because if I didn't directly mention it, it would have been inferred that it was a dig. You can't openly discuss something like that on here and then call it personal when somebody is making a point about the influx of garbage stores throughout the city. Since we're on the topic of the Central Ave. property, it's funny that building is worthy of a remodel. Built of standard materials, nothing fancy, nothing over the top. Plain brick, concrete block, aluminum panels. Nothing of high quality. Not picking at it, it's pretty standard for Middletown, but it's ok and worthy of a remodel for a new store? Then downtown there is a mansion built like a tank that is a relic of the gilded age, built of the finest materials, exotic woods, all the good stuff. That's not worthy of restoring, but the new dollar store building is? It was a bad business idea. It was an even worse structure judgement analysis. Vivian, I never said the downtown didn't need new developments. I only challenged Sj because his solution was to demolish the Sorg Mansion and put a strip center and/or gas station on that dirt. None of the other vacant lots scattered all over downtown or the vacant lot across from the Sorg Mansion. No, it was the Sorg Mansion dirt that he says needed to house new commercial businesses. As for the Section 8 at Trinity Place, I'm pretty sure that they have never allowed that. Somebody could easily call again and check. I remember somebody on here was saying Trinity Place had Section 8 when things got tough, but the person that posted it was guessing that was the case. I can't remember if it was the same person or another person that kept confusing the 2 Trinity named properties, not realizing one was for elderly care only.
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Posted By: Historic House Guy
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 7:19pm
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Gezzus! You guys are (mostly) all nuts. These tax credits are awarded by the State. They set aside a certian amount for private historic preservation every year so no matter where it goes, it's going somewhere. You would think that you would be happy that an investor came to take the mansion and turn it into something. Eveen happier that they were awarded a state funded tax credit to help them offset cost for the project and get the job done. Instead you find everything wrong with the deal and act like this is coming out of some fund that's going to short you on the things you'd like to see Middletown do with the money. This has nothing to with do with Middletown money! They are private investors who will eventually live at the estate. Why do you care so much if it fails or it's a hit. It's not costing you a dime. As far as the street lights are concered on S. Main, yes, the home owners there are paying for it themselves via assessment along with a share of the paving. We had an offer on a house there before the project started and attended a few community meetings so I know who was paying for what. They need to re-name this site "Middletown Curmudgeons" shesh!
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 7:32pm
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fair enough rhodes and house guy we are rambling and straying anyway best of luck to these people though state $$ is still our $$--it wasn't printed for free and the issue over the lights was not installation/assessments, but the powering of these lights(4x the normal streetlights) which is not assessed but shared by everyone just a thought from my end--obviously not popular
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 7:40pm
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Historic tax credits for DUMMIES, a primer; http://www.preservationnation.org/information-center/economics-of-revitalization/rehabilitation-tax-credits/additional-resources/nthp_state_tax_credits_model_policy.pdfhttp://" rel="nofollow - http://www.preservationnation.org/information-center/economics-of-revitalization/rehabilitation-tax-credits/additional-resources/nthp_state_tax_credits_model_policy.pdfhttp:// ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Historic House Guy
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 7:40pm
| SJ, you're right. State money is still our money. Be glad some came back home thanks to these folks and their vision (regardless if it works or not). As for the street lights, not sure where you come up with 4x the cost of regular lights but if you notice, they're spaced out further then your normal street light so they don't need to run as many to get the job done. This may or may not wash at the end. Would be interested to know how you came about this efficiency number. |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 9:09pm
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HHG, I get your point that the money is already there, so what's the big deal approach. A lot of people on here are borderline, if not all the way, libertarians. When government has enough money to pass out for pet projects that means they are collecting too much and need to start returning it. It sounds great to help communities, but I'm sure you know from your own experience that certain people tend to benefit more than others from these programs. Nobody seems to be denying my earlier assessment of how the programs work and since it does appear to work that way or close to it, that is unfortunate the tax payers are funding a large portion of the rehab costs of the Sorg Mansion. No wonder the buyers of that property staked it out for so long. They found a project in which they would benefit financially through the use of tax dollars. As I posted earlier, the only time frame of ownership I could find was at the federal level of 5 years. Maybe this is why the new owners are on their 4th or 5th bed and breakfast adventure. As for the street lamp costs to operate. That would be interesting to see where the information is coming from that states they are 4 times the cost. I won't say I don't believe that totally, but it doesn't sound accurate. From a little research I just did, these types of lights are gaining in popularity around the country in subdivisions and many areas have waiting lists because of the demand. With technological advances, it would be strange that the cost to operate would go up by that much. Doesn't the Sunset Park area already have these type of lights? I could be wrong, but I think I remember seeing similar lights on Aberdeen Dr.
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Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 9:25pm
| Here's a quick follow up on those street lights. I did a few checks on street view. Turns out several streets in Middletown already have similar street lamps that were recently installed on South Main. Mostly newer neighborhoods, like off Miller Rd. They're also on Flemming, where it runs along the golf course. Same for Milton Rd. The Oaks has them as well as DaVinci Dr. I'm assuming the ones on South Main are a little larger. Are the ones on South Main 4x costs of the street lamps in some of the locations I just mentioned or 4x the cost of the utility pole lamps they replaced? |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 10:29pm
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Firstly, the City Engineer's own Staff Report to council stated that the phony gas lamps (I believe the number was 42) on South Main Street would cost $450 per month MORE in power usage costs than the standard street lights (I believe the number was 11) that they were to replace. This $5,400 annual cost will go on EVERY YEAR, from now until the end of time, to be borne by ALL city residents, NOT just the residents of South Main Street. Secondly, it now appears that the new, phony olde tyme lights don't give off as much light as was expected, so the existing modern street lights will REMAIN to actually light the streets!!! This means this whole cluster-f*** will cost the citizenry even MORE every month in power and maintenance, from now until the end of time!!! Great job, Council!!! Lastly, regarding the olde tyme, phony gas lamps, HistoricHouseGuy wrote: "they're spaced out further then your normal street light so they don't need to run as many to get the job done". This is absolutely incorrect!!! The olde tyme phony gas lamps are much lower to the ground, so they do not cast light nearly as far as the modern street lamps that they were SUPPOSED to replace. Therefore, they had to be spaced much closer together, resulting in about a 4 or 5 to 1 purported replacement ratio. There were about 42 to 45 olde tyme, phony gas lamps proposed to replace about 11 modern street lamps, as I recall. (The actual figures are right here on MiddletwonUSA somewhere if anyone has the gumption to search them out.) ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 10:43pm
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The sad thing is that there was a very simple alternative that was proposed to, but rejected by council: Let all of the South Main Street folks who wanted such decorative lights to ENHANCE THEIR OWN PROPERTIES, put them just a few feet away on the other side of the sidewalk on their own property, wired to their own electric meters!!! Of course that would've cost them (collectively) about $5,400 per year in power costs every year to achieve what THEY wanted, but everything else would've been about the same, including aesthetics. Why did they reject this idea??? The only thing I can think of is that they figured "Why should we pay that $5,400 every year when we can foist it off on the rest of the taxpayers!!!" ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 11:21pm
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Rhodes and Historic Guy, You were on good ground but now you have lost ground. What right does one part of town have over other parts of town to get millions of preferred dollars over the years to the detriment of the entire city and every citizen including you. Those dumb lights have nothing whatsoever with historic restoration and you and everyone else knows it. It has to do with a few people trying to get their way and raising their property values at taxpayers expense without any regard to everyone else's property values. Their token contributions to the lights are laughable if it weren't so serious. As Rhodes so well pointed out downtown development by this Council and Administration is a joke and they have no idea what they are doing or how to do it and never have had. We don't need your knowledge or mine to tell us that. The city's negative losses tell us that and so does every real estate agent in the past and present and future tell us that. That is above and beyond what recession has done to us. Its one thing for you to talk about historic restoration on a specific building or lights but all you say is moot because of its subjective nature. It has nothing to do with abusive, corruptive practice to a cities progress (lack of it) by individuals who would rather have power than democracy and who would rather have their special interests than the betterment of the majority of middle class citizens who are leaving in droves. So lets get on with the discussion over the lights (to major in minors) if thats what you are of a mind to do rather than deal with the real issues of city councils total failues to meet the city's needs in ANY area. But don't expect those on this forum to buy into the mole hills when there are mountains that they have been dealing with for years. Better yet, don't waste any more time on the lights and lets talk about council and the administrations motives, failures and actions. Those other conversations are just efforts to distract others from the real issues and we all know it. Further, when you take on someone like SJ regarding business you aren't even in the ballpark. His business experience and expertise is proven over decades in a much wider frame of reference than both of you. His extensive contributions ( and his families) in time, service, finances to this city in so many numerous ways over decades are almost unparralled by any one currently living. pn |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 12:08am
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SJ is not the Donald Trump of Middletown. Running grocery stores is not the same as being a developer. Someone doesn't get to be elevated to some false superiority because they are in the food business. What makes any of you think that nobody else on here is in business? If you can't tell by what I post and what I say on here that I am not some bump on the log, then that is a pretty ignorant stance to take. I'm going to say this for the last time since so many of you are out in la la land. I have never ever suggested or implied or outright said that I support tax dollars going to any historic preservation of any kind. I mean seriously, this is completely unbelievable how some of you are more interested in arguing with someone who is actually on your side over something petty. I'm sorry some of you put SJ on a pedestal. Like I told him before, I usually agree with most of what he posts, but he has no idea what he is talking about when he suggests demolishing the Sorg Mansion and replacing it with businesses where no sane business person would ever invest their own money. Instead of owning up that he was just being provocative, he decided to dig his heels in and make a mockery of the whole topic. Low and behold, the regulars can't wait to jump in and make a comment thinking they are going to win a non-existent debate. Reading is really important. Comprehending what you just read is even more so. Researching before you post is another key to having a reasoned discussion. Juvenile jabs when you have no idea what you are talking about or you post emphatically denouncing something nobody has proposed makes you all look like fools that do it... regularly. Next time you post, know your words and know them well. Before clicking that post reply button, maybe read that link you throw out there or the 500 line diatribes you copy/paste thinking it makes you look smart, when it just makes you look lazy and pathetic. Maybe someone should come on here and post more photos of corvettes so you all can waste another 2 pages like you did a few weeks back. Research, research, research... You can talk all you want about how affluent you think you are, but dumb is dumb all day.
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 8:34am
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 9:13am
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boy o boy--I was happy to let this go until Rhodes insults my intent and purpose. I have never claimed to be a development whiz or mega-mogul in this community. Once again, those are Rhodes' words(which he will later deny or say that they were out of context). My company did a lot of business in this community, and at one time was one of the leading handful of private employers in this city. I was fortunate to work with many of the brightest in this community during their teen years. I don't control what others say or think about me or anything else(obviously!), and everyone posting on this forum does not think the same or is part of some clique(obviously!) as is often accused by the snipers and hitmen. I don't hide behind any screen names since I was outed many years ago. Provocative? I was dead serious in my thinking. I was not talking about another cheap, half-assed chain strip center--I mean something that would be enthusiastically supported by the current S Main bourgoues and the large amount of housing(customers)in that area(which would include the current businesses + in the former downtown area(which SHOULD eventually grow at some point). OK--maybe you leave this glorified historic mess(which sold for half of what I received for my smaller brick/mortar "plain" small parcel in a distressed neighborhood), and start across the street in the vacant service station lot and proceed behind(west) and down the block to the current nfl Broadway News building(east). This is the prime attractive location--trust me--not the plot suggested by SWOhio75 imo. Maybe condos/apartments on the Sorg lot tied in to the tennis/swimming/golf/dining/meeting options pretty much already connected. Not throwing stones, though Rhodes has not come off to be as bright as I expected in this exchange. Still these topics always seem to take a personal tone, and it usually comes from outside of the regular MUSA base imo. Thank you for your kind words and support, Mr.Nagy. My former business, my family's and my work in this community speaks for itself long term. Those involved and affected know. We have nothing that needs to be defended. Many needy are damned glad that we have been around. |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 9:55am
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SJ, I have never said you claimed to be a development whiz. One of your cheerleaders thinks you are hands off because you had an aisle 5 and an aisle 9. It's really scary that I have to keep explaining what I post when it is so simple the first time. Actually the plot swohio75 suggested is a better area to do a redevelopment like Trinity Place or something similar. Remove that part of Tytus Ave., clear out the over growth of the canal, remove the buildings on that triangle or at least that welfare tower, connect the land to Smith Park. It sits across from the police station, post office, behind a courthouse, sits along the Reinartz escape route from downtown, much further from the grit of the Central Ave. hookers. It actually would be an excellent area for redevelopment. By removing that part of Tytus, it would force traffic onto Verity Parkway (where it should be) and maybe that section of Verity could go back to being restaurants like it partially was back in the 70's. It's already a wide boulevard. So I have to say swohio75 might have hit a home run with that suggestion. Carry on with your fantasy of demolishing the Sorg Mansion, which is never going to happen in any of our lifetimes.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 10:30am
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What a disappointing piece of work you have become. What I started posting in this thread was 100% objective in vision. You have evolved it into muck with your personal insults. To me, Mr.Nagy, chmoore1, fact guy And whomever I have missed or is next. You are correct in tvT most of your postings are simple and direct, though as all of us, sometimes misguided and naive. Your "streetlights" comments specifically Nbd--we will go on, hopefully in a progressive constructive manner. |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 11:11am
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My posts are neither misguided or naive. <-- is that one of those personal insult things you don't want thrown your way? You can throw them my way, I could care less. Just quote me correctly next time. You weren't being objective in vision, you were trying to rattle the cage. You got called out on it because it was so over the top ridiculous. I like my posts and I think most people do (from what I hear). It's hard to argue against reason although the merry band of brothers will surely do so as it seems protocol on this site. Back to the downtown lamps? Ok, I don't know what is so misguided about asking how they cost more, but don't mind being informed. As I have repeatedly said, I wasn't in that discussion before and didn't care. Someone brought it up in this thread like it was the end of the world. Turns out they're all over town.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 2:44pm
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correct--no good excuse for my last post I usually agree with Rhodes' postings, though we think differently on the value/future of the Sorg properties This place is still the best source of local information and discussion dis-agreement is usually healthy, with differing parties usually gaining new insight and perspective. Adversaries often become friends. Hopefully the case with everyone here When you demean my prior occupation, property and local knowledge to trumpet the value of other entities it does get my attention. My last and smallest business property was a local staple for 51 years. At no time was it dependent on tax $$ grants, and ir paid big-time in property tax, sales tax, payroll tax, CAT tax, inventory tax and taxes many of you have never heard of. Not to mention licenses and permits. It featured healthy foods and many local employees and used many local distribution providers(jobs for others). It was sold(for more $$ than the Sorg properties combined), is being completely re-furbished and will re-open in another 2 months + to serve the area again(with employees--jobs). It is not based on your tax $$, and will pay the same taxes mentioned above(remember factguy unfortunately stating that the new owners will pay through the nose on higher property tax rates?). How much in tax $$ will the Sorg properties need, and when will they become functional? What if any property taxes will they pay? How many people will they employ? Who will they serve doing what? |
Posted By: Historic House Guy
Date Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 6:34pm
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Steve, you should probably zip it. You've done nothing but fail to prove you can change with times and sold you parents hard work off for years. You have no, "I took a chance and did well", story.. The fact that you sold the last store and that some top heavy fat corporation can buy your store, put 10's of thousands of dollars into it, and make money say's it all. Growth and change isn't your strong point. I'll bet you even voted for that "change".... |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 7:34pm
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sure house guy--I only ran the company for 30 years, with the last ten going south. I could have laid off, paid minimum and eliminated bennies and probably made it. Or been like the new outfit and dropped a half mill in to it.. When it is time to go it is time to go--why stay at the table until you go broke? you didn't get it before and you don't get it now ever wonder why there are no small stores left? How well has Middietown changed with the times? Do you really think that always going back to :historic" will bring it back? you continue to act like nothing happened in this town before you arrived. Plenty of good was here. |
Posted By: Historic House Guy
Date Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 7:54pm
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You continue to blame economics for Your failures while giving yourself a full pardon for your short comings. Let me ask you this, how many store did the family own when you "took over" and how many do they on now? I'm busy building something new. I have little time to care about some whine ass tat blew a family fortune. |
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 8:04pm
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HHG, YOU should zip it. You’ve done nothing but prove that you don’t know what you’re talking about and you don’t know the facts, aren’t very observant and rather than debate issues get personal about people you obviously are out to get. You think you are smart if you can get people to fall into the trap by baiting them to jump in to your cheap, petty personal attacks rather than debate real issues.. Well, the fact is we have all seen your kind many times before and we’ll play the game with you just to show you up and how petty you are. SJ doesn’t need defending. He is more than able to defend himself but you only show your ignorance of the facts and circumstances of a city in decline when you say stupid things like “You’ve done nothing but fail to change with times and sold off your parents hard work off for years. Again these remarks are just personal attacks with no basis of truth and are really none of your business what a person does with his business.. The fact is a good businessman like SJ did change with the times just like many other business people who have sold out and left and gave up businesses in Middletown because we have had council and city administrations who brought this city to decline and have no understanding about business and economic growth just as you obviously don’t understand business. Business 101 teaches you when your business isn’t surviving because of the economy and local circumstances you cut your losses and move on. But you and your downtown cronies will tax citizens to death to hold on to a losing situation as long as you’re not paying for it out of your pocket. Downtown has been a loser in the millions of dollars for many years now because of those like you who will defend a losing situation at the taxpayer’s expense rather than to admit to changing times. Furthermore, SJ and his family have a wonderful “took a chance and did well” story that you will never have. They started many years before you ever came on the scene and did so well that their history is an important part of Middletown’s history. They did well enough to help many people and causes for decades. You will never match their contributions to this city. I seldom call people’s comments stupid but your statement that says, “The fact that you sold the last store and that some top heavy fat corporation can buy your store, put 10's of thousands of dollars into it, and make money say's it all.” There are many businesses and individuals out here right now wishing they could be so lucky to have some top heavy fat corporation buy them out of this losing city. Don’t you really know why these many dollar store are coming into Middletown? If not, then you need more help than we thought. The fact is, “Growth and change isn't your strong point. I'll bet you even voted for that "change"....” I have little doubt now that your vote has helped to support the decline of this city and its losses to thousands of citizens. “You should probably zip it.” pn
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Posted By: Historic House Guy
Date Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 8:14pm
| Paul, I'm on the square and the level. Who's putting there balls on the line and making something new? Who's selling of the old family's sh*t? Really? You guys just keep bitching about yesterday. Go ahead... |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 8:20pm
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thanx Paul, but let it go... I met this fine gentleman a while back We talked once, and I thought that it went pretty well--I was honest with him He bought a cheap house on S Supthin(how smart was that?) the only thing historic about his house is that it should be on Doug's list---history He has been here a couple of years and thinks that he has it figured out he may figure it out eventually--good luck to him But all he can really do to get attention is to throw stones--nbd--dime a dozen He is probably shilling for work in these "historic treasures", milking taxpayer $$ but he is right about one thing--time for spider to shut up, bug out and leave this town to the brilliant minds that ran it, still run it-and will run it in the future. Don't let him fool you--house guy doesn't care about this town--he cares about house guy
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Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 8:26pm
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HHG, Your wrong again. We are talking about the state of the city NOW. Its in total decline. That's teh only reason someone like you get work when others can't. Guy's like you keep lying about how wonderful things are but you are indeed lying. pn |
Posted By: Historic House Guy
Date Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 8:34pm
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Yes SJ and when I met you, I couldn't believe how hopeless and clueless you were. It was everyone else s fault. The guy that got a million dollar business dropped in his lap and sold it all..I'm building one, something you have no appreciation for unless it was given to you. What are you building Steve? What risk are you taking? |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 9:05pm
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hopeless and clueless---hmmm you might confuse my business operation and financial management with my current opinions on the state of our community well--after a lifetime in a successful business, it was my duty to put it to bed--should have done it a couple of years earlier we had a great run, and nothing lasts forever--though we out-lasted pretty much everyone similar across a wide area. I can only thank the community for decades of support--and also gratitude to the wonderful staff over the time Still friends with most of them so we must have done a few things the right way when you get older, family time is a much higher priority we shall see what becomes of our prior locations, and whether the public finds them better or not as much to their liking as what we offered so--go for it house guy--build your empire--but remember--it will end some day also I hope that your run ends on a high note like ours ended You might find someone for whom to work that has a better picture on finances and what it takes/costs--and maybe someone more skilled to handle your communications just a thought--good luck!
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Posted By: bumper
Date Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 9:21pm
He bought a cheap house on S Supthin (how smart was that?
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Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Jun 29 2014 at 6:05pm
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HHG I will say it, you are a dousche bag. (hope I spelled that right) |
Posted By: Historic House Guy
Date Posted: Jun 29 2014 at 6:15pm
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You know, I get along great with everyone I meet. if a dozen people from this forum think I'm a douche bag that's perfectly fine with me since they are the same ones that love to look at everything from the worst possible point of view. In fact, it's not just perfectly fine, it tells me I'm doing something right. Have a nice night gentlemen, I'll try and come back in a few weeks to piss you off again.
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Posted By: bumper
Date Posted: Jun 29 2014 at 9:20pm
| blah! blah! blah! you Historic douche bag, ya not pissing me off with your really stupid post!! i kinda don't see you as a douche bag, think you are more like dog poo on a shoe!!! |
Posted By: enough is enough
Date Posted: Jun 29 2014 at 10:23pm
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HHG Why don't you call Target headquarters and ask them why they closed their store in Middletown. My guess their reason will be the same reason Spider John closed his. His family has done nothing to you. They have donated to many causes in this town but sometimes you have to say enough is enough. They have donated more money than you will ever make. If you want to attack someone go downtown and rant and rave to city council and get Middletown turned around. ------------- Enough is Enough |