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SORG MANSION TAX CREDIT |
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Vivian Moon 
MUSA Council 
Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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 Topic: SORG MANSION TAX CREDITPosted: Jun 24 2014 at 2:33pm |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council
Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Posted: Jun 24 2014 at 4:23pm |
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What about the historic tax credits for
the other restorations of: |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 24 2014 at 5:40pm |
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What about the historic tax credits for the other restorations of:
The Rose Furniture Building + $300,000 city taxpayer funded "façade improvements"--road was blocked totally for 2 months--one lane months longer--any time frame on this "improvement + the 1-1.5 million $$ supposed to be put in to this property by the new owner?--never see anyone working--why no congencies put on this deal? The Ewing Building Allegedly Ewings were payed well for this property--have the promised repairs been made? The Sorg Opera House Seems quiet on that front since the large grant $$ was denied. The exterior is a mess--interior can't be much better--private purchase though mostly funded by donations and tax $$--?--never see anyone working--why no congencies put on this deal? Goetz Tower--?--never see anyone working--why no congencies put on this deal? Sonshine Building Manchester Inn Are these two parcels tied together? POSSIBLE new owner is going to put 10+ million $$ into this property, and the ballroom will not be a part? 1-2 bedroom condos or apartments?--due diligence?---$10+ million payback how?--our tax $$ again obviously Face it--the Sorg family built large, dis-functional, high maintenance un-attractive properties that should probably be leveled instead of saved. The $$ involved in fixing any of this for private entities is probably taxpayer $$ not well-spent. Our community and country has far greater concerns and responsibilities imo do you see anything like this going on in any other needy area of our city? groundhog day deja vu all over again new people come in to town wanting to do the same things that have been done multiple times prior(always at our expense for their whim), Just because they are new does not make the same tried concept new again. |
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409
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Mar 27 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1014 |
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Posted: Jun 24 2014 at 6:15pm |
 
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Every morning is the dawn of a new error...
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Rhodes
MUSA Resident 
Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 24 2014 at 10:14pm |
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If anyone can explain historic tax credits, I'd love to know how they work. I did a little research on the topic today and unless I'm misunderstanding, it's basically a refund when a property owner files their taxes the following year. So it's a credit in their favor, otherwise a refund check. Am I understanding this correctly? The state limits it to 25% of costs, but a property owner can then apply for federal tax credits upwards of 45% of the costs of a project like this. I noticed in the recent article the projected costs of this project are now at $1.3 million whereas before any time the new owners are quoted in the paper they say it is around $400,000 - 600,000. Looks like they doubled the cost they claimed. If my math is correct and they are successful with federal tax credits, wouldn't that make their rehabilitation costs closer to zero? Wouldn't that mean in the end they end up paying $225,000 for the property and the tax payer ends up paying for their renovation costs in full?
Also, from what I could find out, any property receiving historic tax credits can not be owner occupied in any manner. If I read that correctly, why do these new owners of the Sorg Mansion keep saying they're going to move into this property? Wouldn't they be barred from doing so since it appears that is against the historic tax credit rules? As for the other properties that haven't been approved, it looks like the new owners of the Sorg Mansion know how to work the system in order to get approval. Since they are using their own money initially instead of what appears to be a group of others begging for donations, they have really demonstrated how to start a project and get it under way. If I am correct on how these tax credits work, I'm totally against anyone using tax money paid by hard working Americans for this type of usage. People do not work their butts off so others can sweep in and use tax money for financial gain. Would love to know the answers as to how this process works if anybody knows.
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swohio75
MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Jun 13 2008 Status: Offline Points: 820 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 9:03am |
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What about the historic tax credits for
the other restorations of: The Rose Furniture Building -> The roof may, I am not certain, impact their ability to use tax credits, especially if they are going to only save the facade.
The
The Sorg Opera House -> Not sure they applied? Goetz Tower -> Not sure they applied? Sonshine Building - > Not currently eligible because it is not individually listed on the NRHP or part of a district that is Manchester Inn - > Not currently eligible because it is not individually listed on the NRHP or part of a district that is |
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swohio75
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 13 2008 Status: Offline Points: 820 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 9:05am |
Yes SpiderJohn, I find this property completely unattractive! |
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swohio75
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 13 2008 Status: Offline Points: 820 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 9:06am |
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Sorg Mansion is prominently featured in the Enquirer story about this news
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2014/06/24/local-projects-win-state-tax-credits/11305819/ |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 12:09pm |
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I assume you to be sarcastic, SWO75
Honestly I see nothing attractive in either the Opera House properties or the Mansion, other than the tremendous opportunities to use the real estate for something new and attractive to the immediate neighborhood and to bring younger, upscale people in to that area. I have lived here for 60+ years--the Opera House has never been anything but a 3rd rate venue(Colonial Theater) with nothing of value or historic in any of the connected buildings. I don't find the Mansion attractive at all, though I have never been inside. Both properties have been left to deteriorate to the point where it now takes a ridiculous amount of $$(taxpayer of course!) to bring either back to anything. And neither improved property will benefit everyone, only a select few. Hardly the necessary bang for the buck. When I look at the Mansion complex, I see a very valuable corner that could be a true cornerstone/re-birth of the area IF it featured a ssmall multi-use strip center featuring the much-requested/desired fresh food market, small dining centers(chain and private), a pharmacy etc. with the corner across used as a fuel center. IMO this type of activity would spur more positive economic resurgence in the area than a bed/breakfast @ an enormous public expense. It could also draw from directly across the W Middletown bridge, where there is currently nothing for those on the other side of the river. If this doesn't happen, a similar complex will eventually happen on the other side, eliminating any reason to cross the bridge in to Middietown. This concept would probably also be less expensive and involve less public $$. Just look at the success of the UDF stand-alone facility. A Broadway News type facility could be incorporated, while the current site + the American Legion property could be razed. The $$ desired to be put in to the Opera House will result in exactly what? A very expensive entertainment venue/complex for ??? Opera has been proven not to work--the location/size prohibits any major entertainment acts from coming in. Level the whole block to create a new experience for a new breed of citizens/residents and to retain some of our best/brightest. IMO there is no real attraction to what is going on down there now. If you want younger upscale singles and families to reside and visit the area, you have to give them new, nice and exciting instead of old re-cycled sos. In the long run(to which we are seriously referring), this is the only way that any of this re-do could work. I respect your demeanor and thinking--- Where am I wrong? |
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Bill
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 12:38pm |
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Exactly, SJ. Older folks don't seem to understand that by and large the younger demographic wants new and fresh, not old and recycled. All of this historic preservation nonsense is about a small group of people wanting to live out their dreams without paying for it. And they desperately trot out some study or article which supports their claim that funding their dream will have economic benefits. Rarely do these economic benefits materialize. And when they don't the answer is always...more funding to "get it right".
Someone should show the pictures of the Sorg mansion to 100 people under 30 years old and ask for their reaction. My guess -- 90% negative, 10% positive.
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swohio75
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 13 2008 Status: Offline Points: 820 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 1:31pm |
I'd really like to see research that indicates this. Because everything I've read is to the contrary of your statements Gen Y.2 (under 30) prefer Urban Living, which his a mix of old and new (see Banks and OTR in Cincinnati). Even "new and fresh" often receive tax incentives. |
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swohio75
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 13 2008 Status: Offline Points: 820 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 1:32pm |
An easy work-around to this would be to use the main house as the B&B and then live in either the servants house or the carriage house. |
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Rhodes
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 1:45pm |
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swohio75 is right. Under 30 likes revived older urban type areas. I'm surprised anyone doesn't know this. I'm also trying to figure out why anyone would think demolition of the Sorg Mansion and replacing it with a strip center or UDF like business would be a boost downtown. A boost for what? More people lined up with their EBT cards? Vacant lots all over downtown if anyone wants to cater to that crowd. That is not how you turn a downtown around.
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Rhodes
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 2:29pm |
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409 - I think I have said this before, but I forgot your response. I love the images you upload on here, but please find a way to increase the size. They are so small. They can't even be enlarged without heavily distorting them.
Is this an issue with your camera on the wrong settings? There are many options online to store large photos without eating up storage space, if that is the problem. Or are they already large, but you condense them for this web site?
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swohio75
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 13 2008 Status: Offline Points: 820 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 2:39pm |
Aesthetics is a matter of personal opinion, preferences and taste. So you aren't wrong if you don't find the structures personally appealing. From my perspective, they hold significant historical value and architectural interest which could not easily be duplicated today. Now, if there is area that is ripe for redevelopment and demo, it would be most of Verity Pkwy between Tytus and Reinartz  |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 3:01pm |
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OK SWO75 and Rhodes----I will explain why I disagree with your last statements(not really backed up by anything).
Our town needs BALANCE and AMENITIES---two things that the S Main/former downtown area people want(often behind the scene). We have plenty of old/historic already, and little of it generates jobs, income or traffic. Losing one old expensive mess like the Sorg Mansion, to be replaced by attractive fresh meats/produce and necessary staples + the surrounding area with more fuel and restaurants/quick food in NEW attractive buildings would definitely spike interest in the area. Don't you want to draw from the good income W Middietown people BEFORE you lose them(and others) to similar amenities/services developing on the other side? Plus--there is much more to the resident area than S Main, and this type of activity could spark improvement of surrounding streets. One of the key reasons upscale potential residents avoid this area is the lack of above. Why spend serious $$ to live there and appreciate a home value when you have to travel a distance to purchase virtually everything? Sure--we have plenty of empty storefronts in the area, and for good reason. No one of substance wants to locate there because these facades are little more than "lipstick on a pig" due to their repeated "façade improvements. Stain?--gone At the Square?--gone Liberty?--gone Pendleton delis?--gone Manchester dining?--gone BBQ and Cajun across from Beau Verre?--gone and gone and gone Bicentennial Commons?--gone(checked on your bricks lately?) The best artist in that area?--gone 20s and young 30s demographic is a VERY fickle group. What they say and what they support with their limited income(while living at home mostly) are usually quite different and changing. How many do you see @ Murphy's Landing? First Fridays? Not as many as you see @ Stefano's or Java Johnny's. Plus--a small business center brings jobs and traffic. Maybe small and low-paying at first, but hopefully growing and developing young enterprueners. Face it, young "White Flight" has been here for more than a decade for obvious reasons. If they patronize older/historic areas it is because it is near where they live and work. And as Bill eloquently stated--"Historic" around here now means too cheap to pay for it themselves, and far too costly to be sustainable. People aren't rushing to buy property in the area, which our city govt.has already deemed less than worthless--Why? Historic is already there, though very poorly maintained. We simply have to trade off some of the excess "historic" blight to make anything realistic happen. jmo |
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Rhodes
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Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 3:24pm |
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I never said I thought the downtown should cater to the young. The idea that part of the problem will be solved by demolishing a popular landmark structure is just silly. Sorry, but it is. It's a relic of the last industrial revolution. It's an incredible piece of artwork. This doesn't mean I agree with tax dollars going towards it. I've posted numerous times that I oppose that. I'm just making the comment that it is ridiculous to suggest that demolishing such a magnificent property is somehow going to improve downtown. I personally do not think downtown will ever improve. It's not because of fresh markets or the right restaurants aren't down there. It's because of 2 specific reasons. It's geographically in a bad location and it's demographically in a bad location. The first problem can't be resolved and the 2nd problem is almost impossible to resolve.
Leave the downtowners alone in whatever preservation they can accomplish. I don't mind what they do down there, I just don't like it when they dip into the hard working American paid taxes for their own benefit. The "at least we tried" mantra needs to come to an end. We all see what can work downtown and nobody ever acknowledges it. I've brought it up many times. Trinity Place is going on 40 years strong. That's a successful community. Having said that, I really don't see the downtown area worth saving. It's not convenient. It's not safe. It smells like backed up sewer half the time. If you want to experiment with fresh markets and super sized gas stations, there are numerous vacant lots downtown. Have your pick, but the discussion goes nowhere when the suggestion is to tear down the Sorg Mansion as though that one corner will save downtown. That's just about as bad as any of the suggestions the city comes up with on a regular basis. Catering to West Middletown? Excellent idea and one that has confused me over the years as to why city planners haven't done that.
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Paul Nagy
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jan 11 2009 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 4:41pm |
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Rhodes,
Your thinking is quite sound and makes very good sense. It is the simplest and best summary of the downtown situation that has been presented here. Thank you. pn |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 4:45pm |
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imo your map property is too far away from the core income residential, SWO75
Both sides of the corner where the mansion is located are perfect to play within walking distance from the key S Main residents, + the road flows there from the bridge. Actually the tennis club is ?able to remain. The whole other side block down to the current nfl Broadway news can go also. That mansion has been nothing but an eyesore and nuisance for decades. Allowed to deteriorate structurally, and filled with hookers, crackheads and dope dealers. If it was honestly worth saving, it would have been done by now. There has been no positive history there throughout my lifetime. A bed/breakfast serves no real public purpose, and why would anyone stay there? To do what? To go where? A serious waste of huge tax $$$ imo and for private interest? How much would you pay to stay there?
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Rhodes
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Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 5:17pm |
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Sj, I normally agree with most of what you post, but I really think this is one of the dumbest suggestions I have ever heard. The single thing that draws the higher income earners to live in the downtown area are the historic buildings. Suggesting demolition of buildings that are not falling down in order to put up new strip centers and gas stations is really wasting time on here. I can't take this serious because no sound minded business person would ever suggest something that out of whack. I suppose your idea for these new buildings are all top of the line materials too, right? Even though we know that isn't going to happen ever in downtown Middletown when it comes to new construction. So your suggestion for revitalizing downtown is to tear down what draws people to the downtown and replace with sub-standard building materials, which are common in Middletown today.
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Rhodes
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Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 5:29pm |
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** "dumbest" wasn't probably the most polite way I could have said that. Ill thought out would probably be better.
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Historic House Guy
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 6:02pm |
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I'm obviously excited for them. Since the building is privately owned they aren't eligible for grants. I had a chance to get up close to it today. Would love to restore those windows.
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spiderjohn
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Posted: Jun 25 2014 at 9:28pm |
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Rhodes--the thinking that approx. a dozen old and somewhat attractive houses(maybe 5?) on S Main St. attract serious visitors and spending to this city(especially to reside in that area) is equally "amusing" to me. If that were truly to be the case, the former downtown area would be thriving, instead of on perpetual life support.
And you say to "Leave those residents alone"? I say that those residents absolutely need to leave all other citizens alone! Years ago, a city employee living in that area siphoned off considerable HUD money for home improvements on these "historic" homes at the expense of the needy. These recipients re-paid that employee by working on the pavement laying of the employee's driveway, which action was front-paged in the MJ. Wouldn't this kind of activity be illegal by both parties? We paid to re-pave their street(but only up to 9th Ave.) and lower the speed limit there to 25mph. We also helped pay for the new "pseudo historic" street lamps, while the old lamping is still in place and in operation I believe. So--we are in essence, paying for the power to the old lamps AND the new lamps(4x power used as compared to the old?). If I am wrong on any of this, please correct me--as I have honest intention and in no way want to post false accusations. Y'all want nice, upscale businesses with quality products and services, yet you expect top quality businesses to settle for 2nd-rate bad location/demographic real estate(as SWOhio showed in his photo). It won't happen. It didn't work in the original city centre mall and it won't work now. Top quality businesses want top quality locations and demographics. The thinking that a bed/breakfast at that old mansion is better than upscale retail in that neighborhood is laughable imo. Face it--Middletown is only "historic" to a small group trying to cash in on it at the expense of others. We simply disagree-- |
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Rhodes
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Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 12:16am |
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Sj, I hate to have to come on here and correct things I didn't say.
I never said historic homes bring in visitors or spending. You took "Leave the downtowners alone" completely out of context. That was clearly in reference to your idea of demolishing the Sorg Mansion property and putting in a strip center and/or gas station as though that would improve the historic district area. I've never condoned the spending of tax money, whether through grants or any other method for private gain. I'm not really for it for commercial gain unless it is something really over the top that would be a tourist attraction. I don't have a problem with the speed limit being lowered and I don't have a problem with any street in Middletown being paved. I don't understand why the city doesn't find a way to budget so that all the streets are routinely maintained. That's the biggest sore spot that residents have, at least that's the biggest complaint I ever hear. I was never for the street lamps, but the owners down there are the ones being assessed for the costs. I think Mike Presta got that one right. Middletown never did have those types of street lights so to be more accurate they should have been like the ones in all the old black and white photos. Having said that, the ones they installed look cheap to me, like a downgraded version of the ones in places like Lebanon. I've never said or insinuated that there will ever be upscale businesses in downtown Middletown. I think anyone who thinks that will happen needs to check in somewhere. I've made many comments on this site as to what I think would work downtown. As I said above, copy what has already worked... Trinity Place. As I've said in the past, if the city wants a lot of people downtown, then make it appealing to the types of people that live in Middletown. I'm sure the Bash was packed with a few thousand people tonight. They manage to do that without PAC or restaurants or art classes. Back to the Sorg... I think where you get it wrong is you won't let go of a bad idea. You spent your last paragraph talking about upscale businesses would never work in downtown Middletown for the same reasons I believe. Then you turn around and say that thinking a bed and breakfast at the Sorg is better than upscale retail in the same neighborhood is laughable. No, it's not laughable. I don't think either one would work ,but a bed and breakfast would work way better than bringing in upscale retail to downtown Middletown. There actually isn't any place in Middletown that could support an upscale retail store. That's why all the people in Middletown with money are always going out of town. It's kind of always been that way. Not to pick at you over your former store being sold or leased or whatever happened with it, but the measure of any community can be assessed by the number of those dollar stores. They're all over Middletown. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen any community in all of Southwestern Ohio with as many dollar stores as Middletown has. Just to make it clear, if I didn't already, I do not support spending hard working tax dollars on pet projects of any kind. So much money has been wasted downtown by people that want to recreate a vibrant downtown that doesn't exist anymore. When it did exist, it wasn't historic, it was modern and the way things were done.
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 7:37am |
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For all of you that disagree with Spiderjohn and think that the
Sorg Mansion as a bed ‘n’ breakfast; or the opera house is some sort of great
deal; or the Manchester Inn is a wonderful investment; the Rose Building; the
Goetz Tower, etc., etc., ad nauseum…let me posit this: It’s simple, really. Consider
these sorts of deals’ biggest booster!!!
The Honorable Lawrence P. Mulligan, Jr., our exalted mayor, is the vice
president of one of the area’s largest banks.
He consistently gets “excited” whenever he hears of any
whisper of such a deal by someone else. It should be a piece of cake for anyone who
wants to embark on such a venture to sashay on down to the mayor’s bank and
easily get a signature loan for whatever amount is necessary for such a deal,
backed only by the “sure-fire” nature of these “Historic-build-it-and-they-will-come-with-fistsfull-of-dollars”
ventures, correct-o-mundo??? So why don’t all these folks go to our mayor and have his
bank lend them the venture capital for these “can’t miss” deals??? Better yet, why doesn’t Lawrence P. and his
banker buddies scoop up all these opportunities themselves??? Why??? I’ll tell you why!!! If ol’ Larry ever brought one of these deals
to his bank’s loan committee, they not only would laugh him right out of the
room…they would also boot his butt out of the door, probably never to be hired
in the mainstream banking industry again…that’s why!!! Think I’m wrong???
Show us one…just one…of these deals that ol’ Lar has ever agreed to take to
his bank’s loan committee with HIS recommendation!!!! (I'll just sit aside and wait quietly until someone shows me such a deal.) |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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