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6/21 Council meeting comments

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johnnyp26 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnnyp26 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 3:56pm
I think a good question to ask the City Manager is why she turned down 3% of the fire budget in concessions (from the Fire Union!) in 2010.  Another may be how many times (over the years) the Fire Union offered a 0% raise to the City (to "save the budget") and were refused.  We also tried to give back 24 hours of vacation one year to "save the budget" but were refused.
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by Donham Donham wrote:

So Mr. Presta, are you running for council to clean this stuff up?

Mr./Ms. Donham,

I have been asked this question many times. I have been urged to run by friends, acquaintances, strangers that I have encountered in local stores, bloggers on this and other similar forums, and even by some adversaries (as sort of a dare, implying that I lack courage, I presume).

Each time I have answered, and the answer is simple: Even though I believe I am qualified and that I would make an able councilman, I have several chronic medical issues that would make it more than difficult for me to serve the people in that capacity.

It’s as simple as that.

However, as I have discussed with my wife, there could be certain circumstances where I could not, in good conscience, sit here and let a seat go to certain individuals were they to be running unopposed. I pray that such circumstances never occur.
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 7:04am
I can just see the new line-up for the council now....

Leading off, we have Josh Laubach, who possesses the desire to do the right thing and wants to get to first each time at bat. He just needs the correct supporting cast to improve his on-field skills in taking a stand on issues. He can't improve alone and needs that support.

Hitting second, we have acclaro, who has observation powers and the ability to use common sense and logic in assessing any situation. A valuable asset in the molding of young Mr. Laubach.

Hitting in the third slot, we have Spiderjohn, who, like acclaro, has an uncanny knack for sorting through the bull hockey to get to the matter at hand, while understanding the ramifications and positives for any situation, while he demonstrates his desire to improve on this once proud community. Leadership capabilities in this person.

And in the clean-up council position, we have the heavy hitting Mike Presta, a seasoned and aggressive player with lightning quick rhetoric and data to support different positions.

Once in place, we can count on these individuals to start the house cleaning, starting with the city manager, the law director and the planning director, while shunning any efforts made by the MMF'ers to detract from the purging of the waste. This will be their first program under this new regime.....waste management.

It will be the start of the changing of the city in the direction it is suppose to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 7:52am
Thank you for the endorsement Vet, and comments. I unfortunately am tied up traveling in my career that my routine and council's dictate would not allow me to bi monthly, call into a Cisco teleconference system or Skype webcam HD every other Tuesday which would be required. My direct business approach would ruffle alot of feathers as well. But the travel requirements and time every few weeks is a conflict and a burden I could not overcome.
,
But, you and others, if interested, can count on me to help defeat and levy, craft a campaign and message to get out the vote and defeat the levy, and take back the city run into the sand by 30 years of mismanagement and pandering to a few.
 
If you would run, you would have many supporters as would sj and Mike Presta, and I am certain we could form a group to help assist your wife to allow you to take on these challenges, such as Visiting Angels, and other assistance.
 
There was a mayor in a large city in Florida a few months ago who tried to riase taxes enormously, akin to the city's actions every 4-5 years. A very rich man in the city got sick of it, and spent $ Mm of his money to defeat this nonsense and had the Mayor booted out of office. I would be pleased to help sweep out the mess on council and city leadership in any number of ways, but because of travel demands, unless the city passes an ordinance remote Skype webcam broadcasts are acceptable, I could never run for office. But i can contribute in many other ways and would relish the opportunity to do so.
 
Thanks Vet.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 7:55am
lol vet--nice lineup
thanx 4 the kind words
that would be a good time
no need to axe anyone as long as they operate in the direction desired
 
was told by a second Councilmember to pack my bags and git outta town if I don't like what they do
replied "OK as soon as you buy my properties with a sweetheart deal similar to Mr.Verdin,Thatcher estate, Finkleman or Duncan"--no reply
 
not my turn, donham, however Mr.P has a tough physical situation
he shouldn't have to run for Council to justify his city-wide concerns and ?s imo
 
still wondering about the S Main olde timey streetlight approval tally
was the city park frontage counted with the majority(putting the % over the requrement)?
if so--who made the decision?
if not--was the abstention(?) counted with the majority, or removed from the equation?
if the citizens are liable to pay for the assessments and light usage, should they have a say in this?
 
maybe so--maybe not
 
hopefully I don't have to run for office in order to asK ?s or express concerns
actually I run FROM Council
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 8:40am
"RUN"???  If you EVER see me running...call out the National Guard immediately!!!  There is something very, very dangerous chasing me!!! LOL LOL LOL
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 9:56am
I did mean that lineup post in the most sincere way gentlemen. I think the group I mentioned would make a superb council and make great strides in turning our city (not theirs) around. I think each and every one of you possess the skills needed to make logical, common sense decisions at all levels, unlike the ,'s we have now. (with the exception of Ms. Scott-Jones and Mr. Laubach). I mistakenly omitted Ms. Scott- Jones in this group. She would flourish with people like you surrounding her. IMO, they are the only two on council that, if given a fair chance, could demonstrate their skills and feel better about what they are doing sitting behind that desk. Problem now is, they are surrounded by people who are either too ignorant to do the right thing, or have been paid off by the inner circle influence, and we can no longer tolerate that for the sake of the city's future health. The city has become a terminal cancer patient on life support due to their poor decisions and asinine priorities.

Give it some thought for the sake of the city, lady and gentlemen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 8:13pm
Haven't the proceeds of the public safety levy simply gone to the increasing salaries and benefits of the police and firefighters?  Isn't it just that simple?  If they're averaging 3% per year in raises, it doesn't take long for a few million dollars to get eaten up by those raises.  So where is the controversy/confusion? 
 
It's not that I'm in favor of giving them these raises year after year--quite to the contrary, actually.  It's just very simple math that if your tax revenues remain roughly constant but 70% of your costs are increasing 3% per year then you're going to run out of money very quickly.  And as far as increasing the public safety--I would bet that the police and fire unions would make the argument that the safety has been increased, in a manner of speaking, since without the levies there would be even fewer public safety workers than there are now, so in a back-handed sort of way they've "increased" public safety... I don't buy that argument, but I would bet it's the one they would make. 
 
On the matter of Sunset pool--if you're opposed to the city operating a golf course, why is it ok to operate a swimming pool?  Is one inherently better than the other?  Because the pool is used "by the kids" does that make it a more worthy source of city funds?  If there isn't the interest or the willingness of the public to support a pool then so be it, let it be filled in and done with.  I wouldn't be happy over that, but why should the city subsidize the entry fees for kids?  I would hazard a guess that if they had raised the entry fees by $1-$2 per person it would have been more sustainable, but I can't say for sure, not having been close to the pool situation.
 
Also, with regard to the street lights on Main St., again, I would ask, where is the controversy, exactly?  If a majority of the people in a geography vote to increase their taxes for any reason whatsoever, what is the problem?  Consider this--the public safety levy will be used to keep passing out 3% raises and very fat pensions to police and firefighters, many of whom live outside Middletown as I understand it.  This tax levy will do little, if anything, to improve the lot of many citizens of Middletown, since, frankly, having 2 or 3 more cops and firefighters on the payroll won't have any meaningful impact on the well-being of the city.  If a group of people that live on a street vote to, say, re-pave their street, install new lights, re-pave the sidewalks, curbs, etc., this vote can directly impact their net worth in terms of the value of their home vis-a-vis a more attractive-looking neighborhood; the small additional tax may very well be a worthwhile investment of tax dollars, which is likely a very different story than the public safety levy.  So again, can someone tell me why it's a bad idea for neighborhoods to do this?  By the way, I don't live on Main Street but I think it would be a good use of my tax dollars if they were spent enhancing the very neighborhood I live in rather than lining the pockets of already well-compensated police and firefighters.  So viewed in that context, the street light votes are likely a much better investment and use of tax dollars than the many levies that come our way.  And given the fact that the unions would much rather sacrifice their own workers at the bottom of their totem poles (if you don't believe me, please let me know where they've shown any willingness to take pay cuts in order to preserve jobs--and watch closely how this plays out over the next few months, just see if the union heads show a wilingness to take a pay cut), it tells me that their priorities are not 100% the safety of Middletonians, they are very much a self-interested, quasi for-profit institution in their own right. 
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 8:46pm
And johnnyp26, I have to admit to being skeptical about the unions' willingness to offer up pay and/or vacation time to save jobs; I'd like to know more about when/why various concessions were refused.  If Gilleland did flatly refuse a 3% raise last year, then that was plainly stupid of her.  But I suspect there were some very long strings attached to that offer, e.g., foregoing a 3% raise this year for a 6% raise next year.  Am I right? If it's concessions that you want in order to save jobs, I believe you'll get your chance very soon to prove me wrong.
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 8:59pm
a citizen message to Council/Admin by stealing the lyrics from a new Ben Harper tune:
 
We g\ive and we give and we give until it's gone
Then the people that you fight hardest for say that you're wrong
Before me flashall of my memories and days
So don't stand insincere at the side of my grave
I will not be broken
I will not be turned away
 
We go too far then we go further still
Time starts to collapse leaving a void none can fill
Nothing you say can hurt me with your forked tongue
Through bloodshot eyes we watch our world become undone
 
When it's too cold to breathe and too dark to pray
 
We've come too far to give up or to be turned around
We will not go down
We will not be broken
We will not be turned away
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ground swat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 9:39pm

 Not happy, show up at the podium.  Do we continue to tax our way out of problems or increase revenues. We loose a employee after 9 years of investment, going to Kettering, don't blame her. Hell yes lets all have block meetings and fix our streets, lights, sewer and sidewalks. Can I get a refund from Nix, after my neighbors and I wire our new street lights.  Leadership is broke folks.  And yes I know many of you have contact with your ward reps. but it ain't gettin any better.  Roman is Burning. Concessions?  Who's in charge? Again I ask, whats up with Neyer and the several cars that drive up and down I 75.  Did we get a gas station yet?  SJ you know what needs to happen, and it needs to be one clear message, spoken by many.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 10:05pm
Voice of Reason....IMO, any neighborhood in any section of this town could pay to have their streets paved, their sidewalks torn up and re-poured in concrete, new curbs and gutters, new street lights and could tie a yellow ribbon around all the oak trees and they still would not improve the value of their properties.....not in this economy and not in this town. In case you haven't noticed, the Butler County auditor has re-adjusted all properties in the county in the downward direction as to value. One of the hardest towns hit is Middletown as to real estate de-valuation. Even the desired neighborhoods have taken a hit. No cosmetic improvements are going to help if the community is not thought highly of and the city leaders have seen fit to make this community the joke of SW Ohio because of the saturated Section 8/ghetto/low income mentality adding to the reputation that it is a poorly governed town. There is nothing attractive provided by this town, at this time, that would be an attraction for new residents nor raise values for current residents. I don't agree with your assessment that you can raise property values in this town by making improvements. This is not a highly desired town to live in and hasn't been for many years. JMO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 10:29pm
hey vet--u left out the part about the city, your property and you aren't safe here any more.
 
I hear that Marty is still here
Husemann may come back to advise/assist the person that he recommended to be hired to take over his job here?
Wouldn't that have to be approved through Council(though discussed in EXECUTIVE SESSION--probably has been done already)?
Wouldn't it be simpler and less expensive to just hire him back to the job?
 
Ever wonder why every outside levy request must come at the last minute and be approved as an emergency? Shouldn't these outside organizations have their ducks in order in time to go through the process in a normal manner? When will Council say "Enough of this--come back when you have time to go through the public hearing process--no more abuses"
Worked for the library--now senior center
 
million + to fix a f'n bike path while we have to pay to fix our own street(and light it)?
be taxed more to recieve less?
big $$ out there to spruce up parks and the former downtown--still few go to either
 
Think that we might need new leaders?
Why would any incumbant attempt to justify re-election?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 11:11pm

Voice of Reason:

While I hear your Voice, I think that your Reasoning is flawed!!!

First, you ask:

“Haven't the proceeds of the public safety levy simply gone to the increasing salaries and benefits of the police and firefighters? Isn't it just that simple? If they're averaging 3% per year in raises, it doesn't take long for a few million dollars to get eaten up by those raises. So where is the controversy/confusion?”

The answer is simple: The confusion lies in the mathematics!!! You see, the nearly THREE MILLION DOLLARS raked in by the Public Safety levy equals nearly TEN percent of the TOTAL General Fund each year. And TEN percent of the TOTAL General Fund is equal to much more than the THREE percent represented by the public safety force’s raises that you describe, which are only a portion of the total General Fund.

Yet I still remained confused: If, just before the Public safety tax was passed, the fire chief and the police chief asked for a $500,000 per year increase each (a total of ONE million dollars per year) to INCREASE public safety, what has happened to the nearly THREE million dollars per year???

Actually, we all know the answer: Much of the “Public Safety Tax” was used to cover deficit spending in other areas of the General Fund, thus now forcing police and fire to DECREASE public safety by forced layoffs!!!

Next, you ask about Sunset Pool Vis à Vis Weatherwax Golf Course. I must say that your reasoning is much more sound on this issue, and I can’t really disagree with much of what you say. Yet, I will point out a few of the City’s inconsistencies on the issue:

  • The yearly subsidy for Weatherwax has been at or above $100,000 per year for several years; a single year’s subsidy from Weatherwax would’ve kept Sunset open for several years.
  • Sunset is “for the kids”. Yet, the very same city officials who ignore “the kids” in closing Sunset, expect the “it’s for the kids” catch-phrase to tug at the heartstrings of the voters each time a school levy is proposed.
  • City officials have outlawed billboard advertising of Middletown’s businesses along I-75, claiming it is “tacky” and unappealing. Yet, the City itself has advertised Weatherwax on billboards on I-75 just north and just South of Middletown. Talk about hypocrisy!!!

Last, you discuss the olde tyme street lights. First, you do realize that there are THOUSANDS or dollars of initial costs involved here, not only to those in the neighborhood who vote “yes”, but also to ALL Middletonians, and those in the neighborhood who do NOT want these lights (and may not be able to afford them). Voice, do you understand that YOU are helping to pay for these olde tyme lights, even though they already have adequate, standard city street lights??? While you argue that street lights make a neighborhood safer (and I certainly do agree), I should point out that the brighter street lights that now exist make the neighborhood safer than the dimmer olde tyme gas lights. Adding MORE dim olde tyme street lights will raise not only the initial cost (to ALL Middletonians, including YOU, Voice) but also the ongoing utility and maintenance costs (also to ALL Middletonians, including YOU, Voice). Also, there is something inherently WRONG about spending taxpayers’ money to demolish perfectly good street lights that meet all City standards, when some areas of the City do not have adequate street lighting.

Additionally, why is this section of Main Street being paved at this time in the first place??? It is certainly NOT the worst section of roadway in the City!!! Perhaps Ward Council Representatives Allen, Smith, Laubach, and Picard should drive around their own Wards and then see if they can justify voting to re-pave this relatively good section of roadway at this time. Perhaps these residents should be footing the bill for the re-paving of S. Main if they want that right now, before they worry about decorative lighting.

With our city facing a budget crisis, with layoffs pending in public safety, with ambulance run-times increasing to YOUR house, with cuts being threatened in all areas of public services, with tax increases looming to all citizens, HOW can we possibly justify the wasting of THOUSANDS of YOUR tax dollars to demolish perfectly good standard street lighting to replace them with dimmer olde tyme decorative street lights???

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 11:24pm
Originally posted by spiderjohn spiderjohn wrote:

Why would any incumbant attempt to justify re-election? 
If no one runs against them, there is no need for them to justify it.  They just run, get a few votes, sit on their "war chest", and return to their council seat to obediently do as the shot-callers say.
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bocephus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 11:32pm

I will be voting no and any and all tax increases/levies until we get a righteous set of people to steer this ship,until that I say let her sink.Of course if most of the council members,city law director and the city manager were to resign I would possibly have a change of heart but till then ill keep voting NO.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Saunders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 2:36am
Ladies and Gentlemen:  I fear that the City Council meetings in your town are illegal.  As evidence of this statement, I offer the following little known regulation gleaned from within the ponderous volumes of codes, laws, and ordinances applicable to your municipal corporation:
 
LICENSE REQUIRED.
No person shall engage in operating any circus, tent or canvas show, carnival or other similar entertainment enterprise, without first having obtained a license therefor as provided in this chapter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 6:56am
Indeed, Richard, the city government is run like the reincarnation of the Barnum and Bailey circus. (or cheap little flea market carnival)

"without first having obtained a license therefor as provided in this chapter"

REMEMBER, AS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT IN THE PAST, THE CITY DOESN'T HAVE TO FOLLOW THE RULES THAT THEY WRITE, JUST THE CITIZENS. THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE TO FOLLOW THE LAW....CITY OR STATE. THAT GOES FOR PROPERTY RULES, RULES OF PROPER CONDUCT, CONFLICTS OF INTEREST, HIDDEN AGENDAS/RAMPANT EMERGENCY LEGISLATION FOR ULTERIOR MOTIVES, MONEY APPROPRIATION AKA "HIDE THE PEA UNDER THE SHELLS GAME", MEETINGS, SECRET OR OTHERWISE, ETC. ACCORDING TO PAST INFORMATION ON THIS FORUM, IT HAS BEEN WELL DOCUMENTED THAT THEY HAVE HABITUALLY VIOLATED CITY ORDINANCES AND MEETING CRITERIA TO ACCOMODATE ANY GIVEN SITUATION. THERE IS ALSO QUESTIONS CONCERNING THE MOVEMENT OF MONEY WITHIN THE DIFFERENT FUNDS. IT IS THE LAW DIRECTOR'S CREED.....VIOLATE ACCORDING TO THE NEED OF SPECIAL INTEREST....AKA FRIENDS OF THE CITY. LEONA HELMSLEY ONCE SAID THAT TAXES WERE FOR THE LITTLE PEOPLE. THE CITY OFFICIALS HAVE THEIR OWN VERSION.... RULES/LAWS ARE FOR THE LITTLE PEOPLE/MONEY MOVEMENT IS NONE OF THE PEOPLE'S BUSINESS.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote middletownscouter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 10:05am
Voice of Reason, I have no problem with the city operating a golf course per se, what I have a problem with is that the city claims that operating the pool is too expensive at around $50k a year while tossing over a MILLION dollars towards the golf course over the last five years with ZERO return. That's what I have a problem with. It's a disingenuous and it shows an obvious bias towards one group of our citizenry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 4:26pm
Mike Presta,
 
I would like to do some further digging on the Public Safety levy and try to see for myself exactly how much money it has raised; I have no reason to doubt that it has had a $2.8M impact on the city's revenues, however, it seems likely that it has been offset by decreasing tax revenues elsewhere.  Has some of the money been re-directed toward areas other than public safety?  Perhaps, but I still suspect (without much research, granted) that most of it has gone to raises. 
 
Consider this mathematical reasoning:  Using round numbers, if public safety is 70% ($21M) of the $30M general fund, and those costs have gone up by roughly 4-5% each year (I'm assuming 3% base salary increases plus probably 10% increases in health care premiums and other benefits for another 1-2%), this means that the initial $21M public safety expenditure grows by $840K-$1.05M the first year, and that much plus some each year after that.  And as I mentioned, if other tax revenues have declined at all lately by just a few percent (they have) the public safety levy revenues are offset significantly by other tax revenue declines.  Mike, I will grant that you may have a point, that some of the funds that were generated under the public safety levy have been spent elsewhere, I just don't think it is some huge proportion of the funds.  But I will look into it further.  And given the fact that the public safety unions have made it so expensive to hire additional police/fire, would you think it wise to rush out and hire addtional workers at a total starting cost of $70-$80K each when city revenues are so tenuous?  I wouldn't.  But I will concede that other departments in the city need to feel the pain if the revenues decline. 
 
Also, to your point about the longer runs to my house in case of an emergency--frankly I don't buy that for a minute.  When the Fire Department stops sending a fire truck with every ambulance run, when they stop working their crews in nonsensical 24 hour shifts (a good portion of which is spent sleeping, to be sure), when they truly start operating like other 24-hour businesses (like hospitals, whose nurses work 3-4 12-hour shifts per week, with hopefully no sleeping), then I'll start to believe that there isn't room for cuts.  And by the way, I am hard on the Fire Department simply because I think they're overstaffed but I wouldn't say the same about police--two very different issues in my opinion.  So, as I'm sure I've made clear, I think there is ample room for reductions in the fire department, less so in the police department. 
 
Also, I never did make the claim that the street lights were a safety issue.  I soley made the argument that if a group of people vote to increase their taxes for some specified purpose they are well within their rights to do so in our republican (lowercase 'R') form of government.  I am not aware that I would have to help pay for these lights--that hasn't been made clear to me, it's only been my understanding that an increase in property taxes would pay for these lights.  In my mind, paying for the lights does, of course, include demolition of the old lights, and installation/maintenance of the new lights.  The entirety of these cost should be financed by the owners/beneficiaries themselves, but if that's not the case I'll agree with you that it's wrong.  I'm just not clear that I will have to pay for their lights in any way.  Again, I'm not fully researched on the issue, but that seemed to be the intent--that the owners sign a petition and self-fund the street improvements.  A noble, self-governing, democratic sort of ideal.  Any deviations from that would be wrong, but I'm certain there are any deviations.
 
To the point about those others who can't afford the additional taxes--will you plead that case for me to the city, state, or federal government when they raise my taxes?  Are you suggesting that if a person "can't afford" the tax that they should be exempt from it?  So if a levy passes 52-48, the 48% who voted against it should be exempt from it because they didn't want it?  I see this issue as a mini levy of sorts, and if a neighborhood desires to self-fund some street improvements then let them do it.  Tax increases, in my mind, are almost always unfortunate and to be avoided, but such a narrowly-focused, narrowly-levied tax increase seems perfectly acceptable when carried out in a democratic fashion such as this. 
 
Finally, about the golf course, I would offer up one other point--what is the replacement cost of a 36-hole golf course vs. the replacement cost of sunset pool?  I don't like having the golf course operate at a deficit, but it would be a lot cheaper to dig another hole in the ground someday than it would be to build another golf course if the city wishes to do so.  And correct me if I'm wrong on this, but doesn't the golf course "buy" water from the city?  I want to look into this further as well, but I'm not certain that the golf course is a true drain on cash the same way that the pool was/is--it only operated at a loss because it purchased city water, and it has only been in the red for a few years recently.  I would be all in favor of some other private organization operating Sunset if they so desired--the city lease it out for $1/year--but if no one wants to do then at some point you have to conclude that the demand just isn't there.  Unfortunate, but true. 
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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johnnyp26 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnnyp26 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 4:53pm
Sorry to burst your bubble Voice of Reason, but it is 100% true.  I totally understand your skepticism.  There were no strings attached to any of our offers of concession.  We were told "layoffs were imminent" and we wanted to save jobs.  Then surprisingly enough, no one was laid off.  In 2010, we gave the city manager 3% of the fire budget in concessions.  Unfortunately, she did not want to negotiate with the other unions in the city.  Until the last council meeting, nobody in the city asked us for concessions this year.  We expect 0% raises.  If there is no money, why did the corrections officers get 1%?  How are there still employees getting almost $500/month car allowances and free cell phones?  You won't read about any of this in the "newly formatted" "investigative" Middletown Journal because somehow (???) positive articles about the Fire Department are rarely printed.  We worked hard on getting the Levy passed because we were told (lied to) that we would benefit from the money.  The public was promised staffing would not decrease- an absolute falsehood.  I agree with others on here...where has the money gone?  I don't believe the city "finance director" could tell you.  After his poor performance at the last Council meeting, it seems certain he doesn't know much.  He couldn't answer any of Mr. Picard's questions.  That has to raise some eyebrows.  He made a $2 million "mistake" a couple years ago and now they pay a consulting firm to "check" his work.  I will stop ranting now....sorry!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 5:13pm
johnnyp26--I am glad you posted in response to my comments, but I would have another question or two for you: Why would the fire department's offer of a 3% concession be rebutted because Gilleland didn't want to negotiate with the other unions?  What I'm asking is, why would she have to negotiate with the other unions in order to accept the FD's offer?  I don't know about the corrections 1% is all about but  I would assume that it was because they had a raise in their contracts for this year, or perhaps they had taken smaller raises in previous years. 
 
As far as the car allowances and cell phones--who gets these?  I don't doubt that some employees get them, but if their job requires them to drive a great deal and be out on the road then a car allowance and cell phone makes perfect sense.  Car allowances are often cheaper than having to purchase, maintain, and insure a vehicle on behalf of an employee, so it may actually be a savings. 
 
What is the $2M mistake by the finance director to which you're referring?  And what is the consulting firm referenced above? 
 
In a more general sense, many of the issues highlighted here speak to the fundamental problem of having government employees unionized--it creates and "us" vs. "them" mentality.  Except that the "them" are the taxpayers and their elected leadership (or other government unions-i.e., corrections officers), and the leadership's chosen managers. 
 
I think there was a time and place when unions made sense, such as in the early 20th century when they fought for better wages and safer working conditions against for-profit corporations.  But now that unions, in a desperate bid to fund themselves, have turned largely to government workers for their dues after making many unionized corporations un-competitive, we reap the results and things get ugly when times are tough, as they certainly are now. 
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DuaneGordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 6:14pm

As a resident of South Main Street, I’ve been in many (but not all) meetings over the past several months leading up to the submission of our neighborhood petition, so I know a great deal about the project and hopefully can answer some of the questions that have been raised here.

 

First, I don’t believe we’re getting actual gas-powered lights, as has been implied. Nor are we getting any other kind of lighting that should be dimmer than the existing lights. The plan, as I understand it, is to extend a similar type of lighting as is currently installed along Central Avenue and along North Main Street south onto South Main Street to remain consistent with the theme the city has determined is most appropriate for this area. Now, I could be wrong – but that’s what I was told in the meetings I attended. My understanding is they’re referring to that type of electric lighting and just calling it “gas light replica type lighting” because the shape and design of the lights are supposed to appear similar to the general exterior of old time gas lights even though they’re bright, modern electric lights. Anyone who has walked down Central or North Main at night can attest that these lights put out just as much, if not more, illumination as the aging regular-style lights on any other street in the city. They also put out light in a wider, more circular pattern (as opposed to the current style light that typically shines straight down and leaves darker spaces between each light).

 

Secondly, there should not be higher maintenance and utility costs. The existing lights on the street are decades old, and many advances in electric technology have been made in that time. Those improvements should make the new lights less expensive to maintain and operate than the existing, old, inefficient lights. True, maintenance and utility usage costs are borne by all taxpayers of the city, just as they are with any street light anywhere in the city, but I would expect the taxpayer should actually see LOWER costs as a result of new lights as opposed to what’s there now.

 

The cost to take down the existing lights, purchase the new lights, and install the new lights is being paid for by the residents of the neighborhood, not the city at large. The only exception I’m aware of is the lighting that would be placed along the Old South city park sidewalk facing South Main, which the city has estimated will cost $7,000 (or less than 15 cents per resident of the city). It was suggested at the Council meeting that this expense also be shared by the neighborhood residents as well, and the city is investigating whether it would be legal for them to do that.

 

If you review the actual petition in the city workbook from the most recent meeting (on the city website for all to see), you will see who signed it and which properties were added up to reach the 63 percent of frontage on the road. You will also see that the city property, its 250 feet of frontage on Old South Park, was not counted toward that percentage. The city’s property was removed from the total completely, I assume because the city is the decider in whether or not to approve the petition, so it should not be a party to the petition as a yes or a no. Had it been included as NOT signing the petition, though, the total would have been 60.5 percent of road frontage signed in favor of the lighting, still above the minimum 60 percent for the city to accept it under the law.  And really, not all of the non-signers were “no” votes in the other 37 percent – very, very few actually said no, and the rest simply did not respond or could not be reached. Although residents had been working on this for quite a while and had discussions with city officials about the proper procedures for months, the neighborhood association had to wait for the proper wording of the petition from the appropriate city department and received the final version with literally only a few days to catch up with as many owners as possible to get it signed before it needed to be submitted due to the planned construction schedule for the road project, and the volunteers who canvassed the neighborhood were unable to reach every person in that short time frame. Personally, I was contacted about signing it three or four days before it was due and was not home at the time they stopped by, so I wasn’t able to catch up with a canvasser to actually sign it until the day before it was due.

 

The number of homes and businesses in the neighborhood (not counting the city property) are made up of roughly 70 percent owners who live in the neighborhood and 30 percent absentee landlords – this is number of structures, not the road frontage figure the petition required. Of resident owners, about 70 percent signed the petition in favor of the lighting. Of absentee landlords, only about 15 percent signed the petition. I think that’s significant, as these numbers showed that the people who actually live in the neighborhood want the improvement by an overwhelming majority and that even some of the absentee landlords agreed this would be an improvement for their properties they support personally funding.

 

If any neighborhood in the city wished to undertake the same project – seek the 60 percent “supermajority” of property owners to approve installing new lights and pay for it themselves rather than relying on the support of taxpayers citywide  – then they’re welcome to do the same. Many people on these pages have advocated strongly for personal responsibility and personal investment in projects rather than government hand-outs, and that’s exactly what we are accomplishing.

 

As for the street improvements, they are justified. As much as residents of the neighborhood would like for South Main to be a quiet residential street, it is not. It is used as a major thoroughfare by those who wish to avoid the traffic lights along Verity. The simple factors of traffic count and road condition placed it at a certain ranking on the list of street projects in the city, and that ranking corresponded to a scheduling of 2011 for the work to be done. Simple as that. Much of the curb and sidewalk on the street is also being replaced at the same time, but that’s also being charged to the individual property owners whose homes each replacement abuts rather than the city’s taxpayers at large. Because our sidewalks and street will be torn up already for this project, the neighborhood chose to pursue the lighting change now so that everything could be done at the same time.

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spiderjohn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 8:30pm
thanx 4 your clarifications, Mr.Gordon.
Seems 2 b in order.
Hey--the owners take excellent care of their properties in that area, and seem to be functionally organized.
 
Let 'em eat cake!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AKBobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 11:57pm
Originally posted by johnnyp26 johnnyp26 wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble Voice of Reason, but it is 100% true.  I totally understand your skepticism.  There were no strings attached to any of our offers of concession.  We were told "layoffs were imminent" and we wanted to save jobs.  Then surprisingly enough, no one was laid off.  In 2010, we gave the city manager 3% of the fire budget in concessions.  Unfortunately, she did not want to negotiate with the other unions in the city.  Until the last council meeting, nobody in the city asked us for concessions this year.  We expect 0% raises.  If there is no money, why did the corrections officers get 1%?  How are there still employees getting almost $500/month car allowances and free cell phones?  You won't read about any of this in the "newly formatted" "investigative" Middletown Journal because somehow (???) positive articles about the Fire Department are rarely printed.  We worked hard on getting the Levy passed because we were told (lied to) that we would benefit from the money.  The public was promised staffing would not decrease- an absolute falsehood.  I agree with others on here...where has the money gone?  I don't believe the city "finance director" could tell you.  After his poor performance at the last Council meeting, it seems certain he doesn't know much.  He couldn't answer any of Mr. Picard's questions.  That has to raise some eyebrows.  He made a $2 million "mistake" a couple years ago and now they pay a consulting firm to "check" his work.  I will stop ranting now....sorry!


I talked to one of the sergeants at mpd after reading this. Nobody there gets a car allowance and nobody gets free cell phones. They either have to pay for personal calls or they get a monthly reiumbursement of about 30% of the whole bill. I will see one of my friends at city garage tomorrow at bowling so I'll ask him what's up with theirs.
AK - What is going on with that?
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