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tomahawk35 
MUSA Resident 
Joined: Nov 18 2008 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 223 |
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 Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 10:54pm |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 9:55pm |
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Ok mtown:
Served on Citizens Advisory Board from beginning--was appointed interim chairperson, then elected chairperson for most of my tenure. put up with Mrs.Williams' bullying and threats, Mr.Marconi's muzzling, police distrust of citizen members just to keep that dead horse alive. that is one of the many boards that do not need to continue. served 2terms on Health Board, also appointed to the dept.licensing and review board. turned down chairing the Health Board. had good relationship with all past health Commissioners and staff + fellow board members. currently on Master Plan Steering Committee--appointed by Council Turned down a position on CVB I do not miss meetings. I do not sit silently just to vote yes on cue. I do not like to waste taxpayer monies. I ? The cronyism and air of superiority from many who have dragged us into the current mess. I have a lot of experience in many subjects and strong familiarity of our community. Other than by your crew, I am not viewed as disliking our city. Many think differently. |
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Voice of Reason
MUSA Resident
Joined: Oct 13 2010 Location: Williams Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 9:21pm |
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Mtown, you make some good points--in particular Middletown's situation as an old manufacturing town that has declined, not at all unlike other old manufacturing towns--Hamilton, Dayton, Toledo, Cincinnati (to some extent), Detroit, Pittsburgh, Flint, etc. The list across the U.S. is pretty lengthy. Do all of these cities have terrible leadership, like Middletown, and that is the sole reason for the decline (I'm laying on the sarcasm pretty heavily here) or is it the case that larger economic forces outside the control of a single city's leadership are at work? I'd say clearly it is the latter.
Acclaro, you said that based on my logic the ciy leaders should be appluaded for letting downtown become a wasteland--please fill me in, how did I suggest that they should be appluaded for this? I don't believe that my logic suggests this in any way. The basic premise of my logic is that the best use of city dollars is to be put to use to attract private, job creating investment in the city--this would then have the opposite effect of making downtown a wasteland; rather, downtown would be full because so much city money is going towards attracting additional investments in the city. And based on my comments agreeing with Mtown in the previous paragrah, the downtown's decline probably started about 40 years ago, when none of today's leadership was anywhere near elected office.
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"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Mtown
MUSA Resident
Joined: Sep 09 2010 Status: Offline Points: 63 |
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Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 8:29pm |
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Vet
This whole recall thing is a perfect example. Spend a lot of time and energy talking about recalling local elected officials for what? The fact that you disagree with them? What makes your opinions more valid that the total city electorate? If you don't like what they are doing run for office against one of them and make your case to the voters. As far as spiderjohn, as I understand it all you do is complain and gripe on the boards/commissions you served/served on. My entire point is many (a majority) of the MiddletownUSA regulars do nothing. Except bitch and complain. Must be miserable being so unhappy that you can't approach life and your community with a more positive approach. |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 7:35pm |
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hold on mtown--while I have been doing more than my share of griping, I am still working long hours at keeping a long-running local business in operation, and still finding time to attend most public forums(without "griping"), serve on countless boards and commitiees, donate/participate in countless public/private/official/un-official efforts around here.
I am no "outside expert" however I have been here long enough to see a lot of things happen good and bad.
I see myself as pesimmistically realistic.
Hopefully what happens will inspire many to become inspired and positive contributors.
Sure--I could do more.
Could you?
Same as everyone else
Get off of your ego mission, and participate in a more positive manner.
Can you actually say that you have been a constructive or informative member of this forum/family?
Fair ? ?
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VietVet
MUSA Council 
Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 7:18pm |
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Mtown- your response did not attempt to answer my challenge to you to present your gameplan to change the city. Your response only continued your bashing of the people on this forum while offering not one thought as to how you would handle our city problems. The theme to all of your posts has been to scold the posters of this forum, telling all of us to start acting on improvements and stop the complaining and negativity. We get that. Now, again, for the second time, I will ask you, what is your plan to improve this city and what changes would you make, short and long term. While we may be guilty of non activity toward our discontent, you are as guilty of criticizing us with no plan of action yourself, other than to complain about our negativity. Neither is palatable is it?
We do have a habit of discussion with the occasional "let's do something about it" tacked on. To date, we have not gathered to discuss, as a team, how to approach the recall. Will we let this idea die or act upon it either now or after the elections? What say you forum members? Is Mtown right? Are we a " do nothing" group of complainers with no intention of acting on our frustrations? |
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Mtown
MUSA Resident
Joined: Sep 09 2010 Status: Offline Points: 63 |
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Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 6:37pm |
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Most every City in the country that was reliant on manufacturing is struggling today. Vivian, Steve (spiderjohn) and company act like the issues in Middletown are unique to Middletown and they aren't.
Instead of offering constructive critism and positive ideas MiddletownUSA is mostly a bunch of unhappy gripers.
If you don't like the way things are then work to change it. Get off you butts and away from your computers and make something positive happen. If the MiddletownUSA crowd spent as much time working on making things in Middletown better as they do writing about their negatives we would all be much better off.
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VietVet
MUSA Council
Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 4:57pm |
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Mtown- give us an overview of what you would like to see done in this town. What would be your gameplan to fix the many problems we have? Convince us why we should stop complaining about the multitude of problems that have not been corrected in over 30 years around here. If your ideas are concrete, perhaps we will lighten up on the criticism. If not, you have no valid reason to criticize the forum. It's in your court now.
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Mtown
MUSA Resident
Joined: Sep 09 2010 Status: Offline Points: 63 |
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Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 1:46pm |
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You MiddletownUSA regulars are pitiful.
All you do is gripe. |
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Nelson...Himself
MUSA Resident
Joined: Sep 08 2010 Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 12:49pm |
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SpiderJohn, Miss Vivian, Acclaro, Tomahawk35, Etc. --
Your comments (and those of others) underscore the plight of numerous Middletown home owners.
That's a reason why factual data is needed about how City staff spends our federal/state/local tax dollars.
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council
Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 12:39pm |
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If you think your property values are bad now just wait until this time next year. |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 12:12pm |
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VOR--you keep ?ing here about the federal funding possibly used a few years back in the S Main historic district. You should probably go straight to the source to ask Mr.Kohler about the particulars. Also theMJ archives. Current city officials don't seem to want to discuss this situation--stating that they don't want to re-visit decisions and actions made in the past(ever wonder why?).
I personally like Mr.K and see him as potentially a tremendous asset to city admin if directed properly. Simply tell him what and how you want something approached, and let him follow that plan. He is very knowledgeable and capable.
The Cincy St. transition is extremey important, with any private property transfers being handled by the city to be very open and at minimal expense to the citizens. For the most part, these properties have been under-utilized or dormant for years, and honestly have little value to anyone outside of their ownership. After watching the serious over-payment for the alleyway cabinet shop property, the old Office Outfitter complex + all of the land tranfers/demos associated with the Duncan project, and the structures adjacent to the Studio/Strand theater, I hope that there is no bail-out for the current owners of properties eventually to be transferred to Cincy St. Property values in that area have fallen, and outside of municipal giveaways, there has been little to no action in that area. The gift to the PAC has not resulted in a rush of business movement into the area, despite the show put on before Council to encourage the gifting, forgivable loans and expense funding. VOR--you continue to mention "conditions" of the PAC project and "holding Mr.Verdin's feet to the fire", however I am not sure what actual conditions exist. Could you direct me to exactly where I could read those terms and conditions? V]
jmo
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 11:39am |
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While the city is making sure certain property is protected or given away, check out what's happening to residential property in Middletown. A 2.3 acre estate, beautiful rustic carriage style home with brick (ranch) with 3800 square ft at a March tax value of $245,000. sold in August for $150,000. Folks you house values are down to about .5 of where they were before AK and the hospital moved out. 3701 Rosedale, 2.3 acres, 3800sq ft- $150,000. Middletown is hardly on the rebound.
But, betcha city hall pounding Columbus an saying they gotta have that train stop to move all in Cincinnati up ti see PAC, and the students who will be commuting.
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tomahawk35
MUSA Resident
Joined: Nov 18 2008 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 223 |
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Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 9:25pm |
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I am sensing that all this give-away is just a plot by our city leaders to get all of their buildings renovated with taxpayer's money.
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 5:43pm |
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Look, “Voice of” (and I am beginning to wonder exactly whose voice you are being), it is YOU who is continuously “confusing the nature” of at least one “matter at hand”!!! YOU keep spreading the illusion “that PAC may in fact repay the loan in full”!!! Please enlighten us with details of how you see this happening, since there are no terms for this to happen in any agreements with the city. What YOU and City Hall keep calling a “loan” never calls for any repayment of any kind, on any level, in any way. You are correct that the City is reluctant to reveal the environmental remediation costs of the PAC building. See if you can find them. Also see if you can find out the final costs to the City of remodeling according to the mysterious “Exhibit C”, which were never made public. These costs were rumored to be in excess of $250,000. I anxiously await your revelation of the terms of repayment of the “loan” and the final costs to the taxpayers of the other improvements to 7 N. Broad. Then we will discuss the next items on YOUR AGENDA. After all, we wouldn't want to "confuse the issues", would we??? |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 2:43pm |
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Now that this conversation has broadened, I would like to throw in my $.02 worth of layman thinking.
IMO due to un-necessary haste, pressure and paranoia, the "city" dived into this situation ass-backwards.
When comparing the Cincy State project and PAC, PAC is truely small potatoes or less.
With all indicators well-known that C St was a deal strongly in the works, and the properties involved also well-known, if patience had been put into play resolving the C St. situation first, the "city" would have had a much stronger hand to play in the PAC deal. No huge desparation giveaways, Council theatrics, or rendering other adjacent area properties less than worthless(actually C St. will be another much more worthy beneficiary of private property "giveaways" at the public expense). PAC would have had put a LOT more skin into play to get into this game IF they REALLY wanted to be here. Actually--with C St coming, the PAC deal probably wasn't necessary or important at all.
As C St comes to fruition, that PAC property would have been much more marketable,. Still--the only properties that will have changed hands so far have been either "city" giveaways + many more $$, and private properties "gifted" by the "city"(after they are purchased with taxpayer funds of course).
Our ED Dept. and city staff, as "experts", are obligated to serve the citizens in the best fiscal manner. Seems that they might be taking the quick/easy way by giving us away un-necessarily.
The PAC project has been unusally quiet since the big deal. Anyone have an update on this?
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 1:37pm |
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VOR, while wild exuberance permeates throughout Middletown on PAC and Cinci State, lets use facts as a basis of summarizing the rationale which compelled these events to materialize.Middletown hs lost thousands of jobs and has been unconscionably behind in every major trend in the past 30 years, causing suffering and economic calamity to its residents.
As an outcome, with literally block after block of empty property and an eyesore from corner to corner with particularities to the downtown, the city is giving property and making sweet- heart deals to many entirties; the most recent PAC and Cinci State. Hence, to suggest credit is due the city for giving buildings and property away or making sweetheart deals to bring in a few entities that would be an alternative to buildings sitting like a wasteland is hardly deserving of merit and hoopla. The realsim is as Cinci State would be the first to state, there is still $15 Mm which may need to be invested (or >), and this is not a done deal. And if it does come to fruition, it will only be attributed to Middletown being in such a poor economic state, that PAC and Cinci State realize the deals may be so attractive, they should not walk away from such "sweetended" deals.
Using your logic, city council and city hall should be applauded for creating a wasteland downtown, but be praised as an outcome, for virtually giving property away,or creating such low leasing arrangements (recall---the city will not pay property tax on the buildings and neither will PAC nor Cinci State associated with lease agreements), based upon two Cincinnati entities having a northern presence. In my mind, that does not constitute praise nor "job well done."
In allprobability, it saves the Manchester from being saved the pain and anguish of the wrecking ball, and the capital loss associated with capitalized upgrades and expenditures. While delighted Middletown and more importantly, students, may have the benefit of not driving to Cincinnati, the recourse provided in this chain of events was give away property and make leasing dirt cheap, or have the wrecking ball bring the buildings down.
Many would call these actions having a "fire sale", but others call it progerssive "regionalism". At least the audience for thesummerconcert series The Bash will have a few more patrons, with the Cinci State deal doesn't collapse. I remain suspect as to how many students fill up the campus, however than getting Pell grants and loans.
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Voice of Reason
MUSA Resident
Joined: Oct 13 2010 Location: Williams Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 11:22am |
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Mike,
No trick was intended in my question about whether Cincy State was different than the PAC deal--I simply wanted to know where you stood on the issue. I wanted to see whether you are against all transfers of city assets without some type of sale or auction mechanism in place, or whether you are ok with the transfer of city assets to other government entities--in this case, Cincy State. While their is a clear distinction in government vs. private use of these assets, it wouldn't be unreasonable for a person to be opposed to the deal on the grounds that the city is giving up too much (although I don't think the city will have to give up all that much relative to the scope of the project, given the propensity of government-sponsored educational institutions to spend as if money grows on trees...but that's another matter. So I'm fairly confident Cincy State will come, and will bring their checkbook with them.
I am also acutely aware that PAC is a private enterprise while Cincy State is public (but being "public" often times burdens the taxpayers far more than private enterprise, given the heavy state subsidies on public higher education). But again, to my points about the size of the grant/loan (I am with you that it may be a grant in a not-very-good loan disguise, so I don't understand your agitation with regard to this point), since you have provided a $200K figure over 10 years, this amounts to $20K/year, plus the remediation/other costs. $20K/year is not worth losing sleep over, and frankly it's a good use of the city money when you consider what else the city can buy with $200K (two firefighters for a year, etc)...which brings me to my point about the best possible use of city dollars. The best possible use of city dollars is an investment that brings in future cash flows to the city in the form of income tax receipts, which may be spurred in part by such grants. Your point about how the city could have sued Armco over its grant is incorrect, since as we both seem to understand it, the terms of the grant were that once Armco met a certain payroll level, the city would fork over the cash to Armco. Thus, there would have been no recourse for the city under those circumstances, but in the case of PAC if the deal is first arranged as a loan then the city does have some leverage. Also, your analogy with the Grand Canyon is an invalid one, since the reference to the funds provided to PAC are not questions of size and scope (the dollar amounts are largely known) but rather the questions center around the true nature of the funds--is it a subsidy, a loan, a grant, a tax incentive? All are financing in one form or other, and each presumably has its initial investment (cash outflow by the city) and each has its cash inflows (in the form of future income tax receipts or loan/interest repayments). So don't confuse the nature of the matter at hand.
I will applaud you for being willing to wait until the full details are known, but again, you seem to be selectively choosing your points to make, since I had said "based on what we know so far," what is your position. If you can't make up your mind based on the facts known, then ok. It is perfectly fine to wait until the full details are known. I have been part of no executive sessions, I have no secret wiretaps to reveal, I have nothing to offer other than what has been in the Journal and what has been posted here.
To your points about being willing to answer the difficult questions--no, I am not new to Middletown and I have not read all of your one-thousand, seven-hundred, twenty-one posts on this site, nor do I intend to. I raised the point about you being unwilling to answer difficult questions for a couple of reasons--in another discussion you seemed to reference people in the historic district getting grants/funds from they city for use in their homes--when/where/how much did these transfers of cash occur? You did not answer that question to my knowledge, and I am genuinely interested in knowing more about this issue. In addition, I was curious to know why you went off on a tangent about PAC in a forum that began about Cincinnati State, since you are reluctant to give any credit to the city before the full details of the Cincy State deal are known but you are quick to jump on the city's case about PAC before the full details of that deal are known (you yourself brought up the remediation costs, which are not known, and the final outcome of that deal seems to be in flux, given the fact that PAC may in fact repay the loan in full).
As far as your "generous" offer to debate anyone, anytime, anywhere, isn't that what we're doing here? Aren't we already debating the issues and facts? Does debating in person with known identities change the outcome or the reasoning behind the debate? No, it does not. The facts are what they are, the issues remain as they are regardless of the nature of the forum.
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"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 7:58am |
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Patti,
I'm all for good news. This town could certainly use some.
However, the devil is often in the details. "Good news" from One Donham Plaza is often like those internet emails that that begin with:
It isn’t until after about four or five flowery paragraphs describing how fortunate you are and how wonderful it will all be, that it is finally revealed that:
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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PattiGal
MUSA Resident
Joined: Sep 09 2009 Status: Offline Points: 113 |
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Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 7:22am |
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Hey Mike...sometimes I also hear a tidbit or two out there...most recently I've heard that Cincinnati State is just ONE thing...there are more really good things to come. Wouldn't that be amazing? I could applaud for Middletown even louder!!!
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"Because nice matters..."
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Bill
MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 6:59am |
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I agree that it is too soon to get too giddy about this news. When will the other shoe drop? I have a feeling once news concerning the financing of this venture are made public we're not going to like what we hear.
And now they're talking about using the other bank buildings downtown? I guess it's good news but I feel like we're trading all of downtown for a venture that will not SIGNIFICANTLY enhance the tax base.
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 1:19am |
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From a Middletown Journal story updated 11:48 PM Friday, October 29, 2010:
This also matches what I overheard last week in a local gin mill.
If “Sonshine Products” is the building on the northeast corner of Manchester Avenue and N. Main Street, I believe this property is owned by Manchester Enterprises, Inc., so I believe that it, like the two bank buildings, is at least partially owned by the estate of Mr. Thatcher (or his heirs or assigns). If the “lot at 105 Main St.” is the parking lot next door to this building, it could be likewise owned, or is possibly already owned by the City of Middletown.
So the question remains: How much will it cost the cash-strapped citizens of Middletown to acquire these properties and prepare them for Cincy State??? Of course I agree with the general idea of another institution of higher learning in our city, but we have not heard any details. Criticize me and call me a “naysayer” if you’d like, but “cheerleading” for this venture while having no idea of the price tag is a questionable stance at best. |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Oct 29 2010 at 5:14am |
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Heck, the best info I have so far, I overheard in a local bar!!! Do you want me to take a stance based on THAT, and then be criticized by all of the local muckety-mucks for spreading rumors??? (Although I must admit, everything I heard matches what has been reported so far in The Journal...but THAT doesn't make it so.)
PS: You can "assume" whatever you'd like. That doesn't make it so.
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Oct 29 2010 at 4:50am |
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First, let’s be real and stop throwing around the word “loan”!!! This is NOT a “loan” by any stretch of the imagination. There are no terms for city leaders, smart or stupid, to hold Pac’s “feet to the fire” over. They either stick around and keep a few studios rented, or they pick the place clean an walk away whenever they so desire. In NO EVENT are they EVER required by ANY terms to repay anything. And it is NOT just the $200,000. There has also been an unreported amount spent before that just preparing for the remodeling (cleaning, mold remediation, etc., which I have heard totaled a 6-figure number, but cannot verify.) There is also a matter of nearly $200,000 in back property taxes that must be paid before the city can provide clear title.
However, this IS “fundamentally different than PAC”!!! CSTCC is a public college under the authority of the Ohio Board of Regents. Pendleton Art Center is a private company. If I have to explain this fundamental difference (and the use of public funds in the support of the two) to you, there is no use continuing. Was this intended as a “trick question”???
YOU, for example, chose NOT to consider the subject of recall until you know who will be running for the recalled seat. Others think that the decision “to recall or not to recall” is the first step. I, personally, do not think that waiting for a little more information on the Cincy State matter is ducking the question by any stretch of the imagination. Heck, I may end up being completely against it, or I may end up donating to the cause. It may depend upon how badly City Hall screws up a good thing. Will they insist on putting some of their “FOCs” (Friends Of City hall) in a position to profit??? Who knows??? But I will say this, I post on whatever topics I choose to post. I do so under my own name. I present the same views in public, when appropriate, and have offered to debate public officials, or anyone else in any forum ON AN EQUAL, LEVEL FIELD if they disagree!!!I extend the same offer to you!!! Name the time, place, and suggest a moderater!!!
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Voice of Reason
MUSA Resident
Joined: Oct 13 2010 Location: Williams Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 9:56pm |
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Mike,
I will grant your points about the suspect nature of the loan. But it's $200K--I would ague that it's not that bad a deal for the city. And if we elect leaders who are smart enough to hold PAC's feet to the fire about remaining in operation then I think it's worth a shot to bring them to town. We will better know if it was worth it in about 5-10 years.
But back to my next question--what are your thoughts on Cincy State? Is this fundamentally different than PAC? If so, why? If not, why oppose PAC but not Cincy State?
I am beginning to think that you avoid answering the difficult questions, questions which challenge your reasoning and assumptions...a shame that would be if someone as clearly passionate as you are won't reply to questions that aren't easy to answer.
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"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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