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Thursday, May 9, 2024 |
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Unspecified Sutphin Street Project Problems?? |
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Pacman 
Prominent MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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 Posted: Jun 30 2010 at 7:54am |
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Vet I believe the problem was not visible as it was below ground, the road surface. These things happen unless you have X-ray vision how are you going to know without ripping up the road each time before you decide to repair or replace it. The added expense could come in later due to the fluctuation in paving material costs. Oil goes up Price of asphalt goes up. Pretty much 1 hr of wanting to rip on someone last night because of the additional costs. It was going to have to be fixed regardless. Also this won't be the last time you find a surprise or two when you let your infrastructure go as Middletown has. I saw little sense in all of the drama last night. You know you are going to have to fix it and pay for it so let's get it done and move on.
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council 
Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Posted: Jun 30 2010 at 8:32am |
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Surprised at the condition of Sutphin Street? Not visible as it was below ground, the road surface?
Doesn't anyone remember that Duke had big holes up and down this street and later this street was paved with big steel plates for months? Why didn't the City take a little peek then? Surprise?...I don't think so. Mercy! |
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Posted: Jun 30 2010 at 8:42am |
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So Vivian why did you drop your Cemetery Complaint against the City? Or did the City Managers report have a mis-print. Just curious.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 30 2010 at 9:32am |
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Correct pacman
The problem is below the surface, though any long-timer in the immediate area would know that Sutphin was in seriously poor condition and hadn't been repaired properly in a zillion years. The situation could have/should have been anticiccipated, however when you have people in charge that don't live here or don't spend any time in the area, this is what you get. Especially when you halfway do the projections and scream for un-necessary emergency legislation. Due diligence and more accurate assessments could have prevented this long work stoppage(does anyone REALLY think work will begin until after July 5th, or that this project will be completed before the beginning of the school year?) and extra inconvenience for hundreds of residents and the struggling businesses.
As pac also mentioned, there was no need for drama or posturing(from Council or Admin). At this stage of the mess, there was no other option than to fund the project. So much for no money available.
Everyone who can should walk this street from Woodlawn to Central in order to fully understand the true scope of this poorly planned disaster. Then think about the affected residents.
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Nick_Kidd
MUSA Resident 
Joined: May 15 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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Posted: Jun 30 2010 at 10:57am |
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Vet, I believe that the contractors bid on what the city tells them needs to be done, not on what they think should be done. The bid is on the contract that the city engineers decide what is included.
Vivian is right about Duke Energy putting in new gas lines on Sutphin Street a few years ago. Many curbs and gutters and driveway aprons were replaced about fifteen years when Sutphin was last resurfaced. It appears to me that the "deteriation" is in a reasonablely straight line. It looks more like replacing a gas line than deteriation to me. (Look at the last picture that Randy posted above). Spiderjohn is right about people in charge not living here and no idea about what happened a few years ago that shound be considered.
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Government is not the answer to problems, government is the problem.
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Iguana333
Outsider 
Joined: May 12 2010 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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Posted: Jun 30 2010 at 2:21pm |
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In february of 2009 the Federal Stimulus bill passed, with an aim of getting projects out as quickly as possible. In fact, cities, townships, and counties had about a week to do any preliminary engineering, planning, site reconnaissance, underground exploration, and cost estimating before submitting their funding requests. This is a daunting task for the TOTAL RECONSTRUCTION of 2 major streets (not simple paving as some have seen on Dixie and Manchester).
Less than 2% of these requests were approved, with Middletown receiving 10% of the total funds for the entire region for the Sutphin and University projects. So you see, taking the time to explore every possibility of "what lies beneath" was a luxury not afforded by the Federal Stimulus program. There are risks involved in most every action, especially in undertaking a major construction project. If one does not take some of these risks in an effort to move things forward, the result is stagnation and eventually failure. Vivian- Duke Energy's work did not take place in the curb, specifically in the curb plate, which is where the problem lies. |
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lrisner
MUSA Citizen 
Joined: May 26 2009 Status: Offline Points: 330 |
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Posted: Jun 30 2010 at 2:38pm |
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I was driving down Stanley Street the other Day and notice there was Crew doing Curb and Sidewalk repair and had to stop and talk to their Leader. You see, the last time Stanley St. was done in 1978 I was the Contractor that did most of the part I was on.
From my experience doing such work, I can tell you that until you actually start digging things up there is no way to know how good the Concrete is. In this case, I have no doubt that once the Pavement was dug completely up and the edge of the Curb ( 8" thick at the Road face) was exposed,and expected to stand alone for the Paving, the Curb fell apart. Concrete deteriorates over time and there is no way of knowing when that will be given all the variables and all the time Sutphin has seen since the last repair.. It might look good from the surface with the Pavement in the front, and the Soil on the back side, holding it together. However once you remove either one of these "Dams" it might easily fall apart. I guess Engineering could have assumed the worst and included all new Curb in the Stimulus request, but that might very well put the Dollar amount high enough to have the Project rejected. I don't blame anyone here and hope most of you will cut them some slack. There is plenty of legit Governmental things gripe about in this little Hamlet. |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 30 2010 at 2:39pm |
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The most interesting facet of last night's session was Councilmembers' amazement and irritation over not being made aware of the work stoppage. Admin should have a sense of obligation to inform both Council AND the public(particularly those in the seriously affected area) as to what is going on. This lapse can be viewed as either total disregard or basically covering one's ass--with neither option being proper or acceptable.
This delay is a MAJOR hardship for the residents and businesses in the area.
If anyone really believes that work resumed today, and that construction will begin tomorrow, I hope that they take the time to walk the area and see for themselves.
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Richard Saunders
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 30 2010 Status: Offline Points: 232 |
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Posted: Jun 30 2010 at 4:22pm |
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Please permit me to make an observation that should be as shockingly clear as a lightning bold striking a wet kite line. The most obvious shortcoming is the lack of an informed opinion from a completely uninvolved expert. I see and hear only the comments from pundits who either: Are not the acknowledged masters of the engineering and construction arts; Or, if having some such credentials, then have interests of gain or loss, either actual or possible future, in the goings on, and outcomes of, of the current situation. Have ye not learned from history that one cannot possibly get unbiased observations from those involved in, or who may stand to gain or lose by the outcome of, any questionable situation? Simply find an honest man, skilled in the necessary arts involved, but with no intentions or possibility of risk or reward from the resolution of the questions at hand…and then ask him! Or would that be too simple and straightforward for such an august and pompous group as that involved in this situation? |
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wasteful
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 27 2009 Status: Offline Points: 793 |
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Posted: Jun 30 2010 at 4:42pm |
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I find your comments somewhat pompous rather than dignified or imposing. Now if you would like to drop the charades and make a comment please do, in a less obnoxious way.
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Jul 01 2010 at 6:47pm |
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I'll give it a shot!!!
Please permit me to make an observation that should be as shockingly clear as a lightning bold striking a wet kite line. Let me tell you what should already be obvious. The most obvious shortcoming is the lack of an informed opinion from a completely uninvolved expert. The biggest problem, so far, is that we haven‘t heard from someone without a dog in this fight, who also knows his "stuff" about road work design and construction. I see and hear only the comments from pundits who either: Are not the acknowledged masters of the engineering and construction arts; So far, he’s only seen comments from “sidewalk superintendents” who: don’t know "stuff" about this kind of stuff;
Or, if having some such credentials, then have interests of gain or loss, either actual or possible future, in the goings on, and outcomes of, of the current situation. Or, if they do know their "stuff", they’ve already got a dog in this fight so we can’t really trust them to be impartial or to tell us the straight scoop. Have ye not learned from history that one cannot possibly get unbiased observations from those involved in, or who may stand to gain or lose by the outcome of, any questionable situation? If you’ve been around the block a time or two, shouldn’t you have learned that if somebody, themselves, has something to win or lose, or might’ve made a mistake that they’re trying to cover up, you probably can’t rely on them to be completely straight on the subject? Simply find an honest man, skilled in the necessary arts involved, but with no intentions or possibility of risk or reward from the resolution of the questions at hand…and then ask him! Use your head, man! Just find an honest man who knows all about this sort of "stuff", but doesn’t have anything to gain or lose on this deal, and who isn’t out to get involved for money, and then ask him what the deal is.
Or would that be too simple and straightforward for such an august and pompous group as that involved in this situation? Or, is that too easy for you stupid @$$-hole know-it-alls to understand???
I hope that this helps. |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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wasteful
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 27 2009 Status: Offline Points: 793 |
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Posted: Jul 01 2010 at 6:52pm |
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I got that much the first time around only I skipped right to the last line.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jul 01 2010 at 7:06pm |
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I can't decide which version was the most condescending.
Actually neither said much of anything.
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Jul 01 2010 at 7:09pm |
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Then again, in the past I have been called a "pompus a**" and it didn't hurt a bit, so it wouldn.t bother me if it happens again!
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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lrisner
MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 26 2009 Status: Offline Points: 330 |
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Posted: Jul 01 2010 at 11:24pm |
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I'll give it a shot!!!
Simply find an honest man, skilled in the necessary arts involved, but with no intentions or possibility of risk or reward from the resolution of the questions at hand…and then ask him! Use your head, man! Just find an honest man who knows all about this sort of "stuff", but doesn’t have anything to gain or lose on this deal, and who isn’t out to get involved for money, and then ask him what the deal is. /QUOTE] I already did that, but as it didn't claim City Corruption or some other Evil, it was dismissed. As to qualification, my Family has been doing such work since 1961. My Dad might very well have done the Street some of you live on right now. If that is good enough, then I think you are looking for someone to tell you what you want hear rather than the truth. |
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Jul 02 2010 at 1:32am |
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Thank you for the compliment!!
I'm sure that only you or lrisner could've done better!!!
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Jul 02 2010 at 2:15am |
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You appear to be addressing this mess to me, but I have no idea from which lame portion of your brain you snatched the fragmented phrases "City Corruption" or "some other Evil", or the idea that I had any interest in your "Family" or what your "Dad might very well have done".
I can, to a 100% certainty, guarantee you that I am NOT "looking for someone to tell" me what I "want hear rather than the truth", and even if I was, that "someone" would NOT be YOU!
Now, I don't know why you seem to always want to try to pick an arguement with me, but it is getting old, and it is not even close to a "sporting" event.
If reading my posts (even when they bear so little, if any, relationship to what you seem to imagine they say) bothers you so much, please STOP reading them! (You easily can tell which are mine because MY NAME always appears just above them. When my name is NOT there, they are NOT mine!) If you cannot stop reading them, but they continue to bother you so, well, I'm sure that there is an 800 number that you can call, or some self-help web site where you can go to, to find solace, and camaraderie with others like yourself in an accepting and caring atmosphere.
Or, you can always join "jm" in attacking me in comments to Journal e-dition stories that I have not commented upon for things I have not said and for views that I may or may not hold. There are even some cartoon characters who seem to enjoy verbally "beating up" nuts such as you and "jm", and they seem better at it than I, so go there and enjoy yourself! Oh, and have a nice day!
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jul 02 2010 at 7:56am |
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No one is claiming corruption or evil, though incompetance, unnecessary work stoppage, affected residence/business hardship and secrecy could be applicable.
Same with the assumption that using a real proper name other than a screen name certifies some higher degree of honesty, accuracy or righteousness.
I have no experience whatsover with road/curbing construction, and respect the posts here of those with that backround. Your info minus the personality part is very helpful.
I have operated a business on Sutphin and approximate to the area for over 50 years, and lived in that area also.Sutphin is a vital connecting roadway, much more-travelled than many realize. There had been no deep roadwork in that area for as long as I can remember(I travel it multiple times every day). IMO the construction experts/planners should have probably anticipated a worst case scenerio as a realistic/likely possibility, and had a back-up plan accordingly.
The discovery and subsequent extra funding could have been planned secondarily IF those in charge and approving had taken proper time to thoroughly outline the project. To stop the work, pull all workers and equipment off the job then go through the theatrics and spinning we witnessed would not have happened. Plan B could have been implemented to the surprise of no one. The extra funding and work(already anticipated as worst case) could have gone on un-interrupted. To shut these businesses and impact the hundreds of residents for an extra 3-week minimum(over 2 weeks already) is a serious hardship.
Once again, I blame the rush and incomplete planning on un-necessary emergency legislation and an intentional lack of provided information to make an educated and proper decision.
Dog in this fight? We ALL have a stake in this project to a varying degree. It is now an on-going mess with nothing happening on dry, pleasant weather working conditions.
Bottom line--none of the posturing and egotism displayed here or by Council/Admin has put one worker back on the project yet. Does anyone really expect anything to happen before next Tuesday at the earliest?
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Bobbie
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 05 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 288 |
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Posted: Jul 02 2010 at 9:13am |
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From a business stand point there is always more then 1 bid. Did we accept the lowest bid thinking we were getting a good deal? Where the other bids higher, and were they higher because they recommended replacing what we are now having the issue about? If so then it is our management/coucil error. I.
I like the idea of bringing in someone that knows about construction work that does not have any gain from the project. To my knowledge no one on council is an expert on concrete construction. It is obvious if you drove down 122, that is completely screwed up. I f you drive down University right now you see that some of the gutter work is marked for replacement and some is not - will we have the same issue with this work as well?
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lrisner
MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 26 2009 Status: Offline Points: 330 |
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Posted: Jul 02 2010 at 10:05am |
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Mr Presta. Accept my apology for the "quote" error. My post was not directed at you but rather, from my vantage point, an add to your post. It is understandable that you were confused.
As a matter of fact the bids are made based on what the City wants and the Specs laid out by the City Engineers. It is not up to the Contractor to decide what work needs to be done. They only look at so as to be informed about any obstacles, safety, traffic, other things that could impact their cost. As to if I had a Dog in this fight, one of the losing Bids was from the Company where my Dad was a part of Management and I still have family working there now. If personal interest were involved, I would been saying just the opposite so as to make the inference that the current Contractor did something wrong as way to Promote the The "Family" Company for future Bids. I think under the circumstances, I was fair to say the least. |
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Bobbie
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 05 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 288 |
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Posted: Jul 02 2010 at 10:22am |
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IMO - Would there not have been discussions of the possiblitity that this extra work might need to be done. If so- would it not have been the smart thing to add this to the bid - then if not needed we could have sent the non used stimules money back. It is always better to say you came in under budget, then to ask for more money especially when we really don't have it. Our engineers should have known this is a possibility and asked for it to be included. Is the work that was done on St Rt 122, state work or city work. Because if that is what the engineers for the city planned - it is awful. I can understand why people from other areas do not come to Middletown, the roads into town are confusing.
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Jul 02 2010 at 5:14pm |
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Fine!!!
I didn't have a dog in this fight.
I haven't even run with the dogs for over 12 years now!! (
)But if you're gonna bark at me...
I'll have more to say later.
(Friday evenings are ALWAYS reserved for my wife and I to socialize!!!
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Dead man walkin'
MUSA Resident
Joined: May 06 2010 Status: Offline Points: 51 |
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Posted: Jul 05 2010 at 12:48am |
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Presta should've had a look at this and given his professional opinion. He owes the town that much. Instead, all he did was go for a few cheap laughs with the "I speak Pompous and Jive, etc" routine. You just dind't think it was funny when you needed someone to back your view up.
You don't seem to worked up about whose dog is/has been in the fight on other spots where the same thing happens to your commpetitors, do you? University/Marsh comes to mind.
You people don't worry about the "spinning and theatrics" unless it directly affects YOU so the city gets away with it all the time. You take their side when it suits you. I didn't here you protest the hogwash spin and theatris about the market Drive mess. Where were your tears then? Oh, not your problem was it? Old 25 in front of Guyler's and Ristaneo's and Micamanoco's? Need I go on?
But now they affect YOUR place, and YOU wonder where everyone is to take your side? Where were YOU when THEY needed support?
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"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil" (Psalm 23)
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Posted: Jul 05 2010 at 6:33am |
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Hmmmmmm, seems to me one could ask you the very same question, Mr. 21 Posts aka Dead Man Walkin. You come on the scene here belittling others yet where have you been for the last 2-3 years that many of us have been warning people that change is needed in this city. You offer very little in the way of information other than to tell others what they should be doing or should have done.
Do you know these people on here personally? I know many of them and I talk to some of them regularly and they show far more concern for everyone in this city then you do with your rants and demands. Just because you may be a 'Dead Man Walkin' doesn't give you any special privileges to come here and give orders and make demands of people.
Have a nice day.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jul 05 2010 at 7:01am |
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Whatever, Dead Man.
Sure--I care mostly about my situation.
I believe that I have mentioned the University/Shafor situation repreatedly here and in my conversations with engineering,admin and Council. Same with the other University water mane break and the I75/122 boondoggle.
BTW--no work has been done on Supthin since the meeting last Tuesday despite the promises. Hopefully it will resume today.
So--I concern myself with screwed up messes that effect me.
Big surprise--isn't that what I should be doing?
As for expecting "everyone to take my side", I pretty much play my own game here.
As for Presta being consulted on the road projects--are you serious?
You have a strange way of thinking--trying to manipulate others to speak up for what you see as important also. As always, if you have issues, you had better deal with them yourself.
Hey--great to have interesting points of view here.
Room for one more?
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