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Saturday, November 23, 2024 |
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Middletown vs. HUD |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Viv, |
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TonyB
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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To the above posters,
Is it any wonder why this city is so polarized? Go back and look at the accusations hurled at each other and remember one very important phrase: "Divide and "Conquer"!!! Quite frankly, that is exactly what you are doing here while those with the power to change things in Middletown continue on their merry way to make things better for themselves. There is certainly nothing wrong with honest discussion and disagreement, however; hurling accusations and questioning motives does not lead to a consensus and that is what is needed here. What are you hoping to achieve on this blog about this subject? Venting some frustration? Pointing out the obvious inequities of our current system? Spotlighting wasteful government spending? If the situation in Middletown is ever going to change, a consensus of what needs to be done needs to occur. I know of one group that has a consensus: Middletown Moving Forward!!! If you don't agree with what this group is espousing, you'd best get organized around an agenda that you can believe in and work to achieve because MMF is forwarding their agenda as we speak! As for this being fact or opinion, I'll let you decide. But you'd better be quick about it or what is happening in Middletown will reach the point that it can't be reversed. I can now make these comments as an outside observer because I no longer live in Middletown. It does pain me to see the town that I consider my hometown in such trouble. I just hope that someone or a group of someones can bring about the changes that are needed to indeed move Middletown forward again! |
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greygoose
MUSA Resident Joined: May 19 2012 Status: Offline Points: 158 |
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This is what is wrong with you. You state things as fact and they’re not.
Ahh Greygoose • The 54% rule was a known fact long before Mr. Adkins took office. Prove to me that this fact was known before Mr. Adkins discovered it. You made the statement as though it was fact….. prove it! For that matter, prove that there is anything officially known as the 54% rule. • How many other cities in Ohio requested additional Section 8 vouchers? Oh my God! You used a question mark. I have no idea how many cities requested additional Section 8 vouchers. How does that question have any relevance on this subject? For the record, I feel that adding all of those vouchers was a huge mistake but it has nothing to do with this group of city leaders. You falsely imply that they are guilty of these mistakes. The Coucil didn’t even know that they were in charge of the housing agency until 2008. • How many other cities in Ohio have enacted legislation to declared their entire town of 50,000 residence “Slumville <st1:country-region>USA</st1:country-region>” so they could manipulate HUD funds away from the poverty areas? There you go again. The city didn’t “declare” anything…. You and your thoughtless cronies did. He didn’t coin the terms “slum rule” or “Slumville <st1:country-region>USA</st1:country-region>”, you did. Yes I did. And its really sad that you appear proud of it. It does nothing positive for the city in any way……. It just feeds your agenda. I want to feel sorry for you but can’t. It must be hell waking up each morning. All that he did was present an opportunity to expand the city’s benefits and those that we elected to represent us agreed with him. Due to some “whacked out” reasoning, you seem to think that that everybody that doesn’t agree with your thinking is bad for our city. Are you seriously saying that you believe that the Highlands Historic District is a high poverty, high crime areas that deserve and needs HUD funding? I’m saying that I like the idea of the money being used where it best serves the citizens….. not where it best serves Ms. Viv. I’ve got news for you……coining terms like “Slumville” is bad for this city. Wasting our tax dollars is even worse for our city but you don’t seem to object to that. Show me proof. You state it as fact….. show me proof! Because of your inability to be objective, I believe that nobody takes you seriously other than a couple of like-minded quacks that used to post on this board. If you think that you can do better, run for the position. I know of two votes that you will get for sure. Until then, count on me to be around to point out your “bad habit” of stating your opinion as fact. I can only imagine the amusement that you provide to our city leaders. Lord knows that I do try to keep them amused By the way, you never answered my question about why Mr. Adkins was “unjustly” praising Nelson & Associates & The Inspection Group. Is there a reason? Do you even know anything about these organizations? You had no problem making the statement. Why not answer the question? |
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"If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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goose, my objectivity is bred through the professional aspects of my career, I do it for a living. I assuredly don't need to criticize the ineptness of city leaders nor council to boost to image or self worth. On the contrary, illuminates the contempt I have for those whom defend and have their heads in the sand while others have destroyed it decade after decade. TonyB, with all due respect, its over with Middletown, Its gone, history. Yeah, AK will be around, Levy got MUM in and the tenured life payroll taxes, but the city is like Russia. Too much infrastructure and mass to maintain, and too few to pay the taxes to sustain it. Amazing arguments such as goose advances for "excusing" Middletown are not also met with the realization the city has maintained its number of personal, and eating habits, leading to the phrase, "feeding the beast", while reminding the gullible, that old world economy just has impeded Middletown for years. No, it was the union mindset and laziness, the unwillingness to do the heavy lifting, that sank Middletown. Hamilton gets by only by being a county seat. Both cities are dominated by public sector payroll. Better to have head held up with eyes open, than walking with head covered under sand, and bumping into walls daily.
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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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This “blows my mind” ………….I have discovered the “primary” reason that city council let the number of Section 8 vouchers get “out of hand” since the turn of the century. While researching the origin of the 54% rule, I ran across this little detail while on the city web site: Are you telling me that that Mr. Kohler withheld this information from several city managers and several city councils over the years?
I believe it was in 2008 that Ms Judy strongly suggested that the city turn the program over to |
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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goose, so the city pays you to be the pit bull attacking Vivian Moon for planting flowers and shrubs, and attempting to maintain the cemetery? What a horrid commentary on city propaganda. Please, do make a call to Dr. O' Dell Owens about his efforts to tarnish Middletown. When does the train ride "Bright Past, Brighter Future" end with you? Is your retainer long associated with the city shill work? Be careful...the city has a habit of cooking the goose that laid the golden egg.
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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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greygoose
MUSA Resident Joined: May 19 2012 Status: Offline Points: 158 |
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TonyB,
You are absolutely right in your statements......BUT, BUT, BUT, BUT WHERE IS THE HONEST DISCUSSION & DISAGREEMENT!!!!! There is none. That was what I was looking for when I joined this board but soon discovered that there is no honest discussion & disagreement. When someone posts 100's of neagative messages about the city but refuses to respond to any questions or disagreement, what are you supposed to do? Don't look at today's posts.... look at the two weeks worth of posts leading up to today's "tirade". You can not have an honest discussion on this message board. If you say something complimentary of the city, you are labled as a "city shill". If you are willing to pay a little extra and endure a little inconvenience for the overall good of the city, you're labled as a freaking nut case. Seriously, what is truly being accomplished with the way this board is ran. You step in line with the negativity or "we will take our ball and go home". Until it changes, nobody will take it seriously. I know I won't....... and I really wanted to. |
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"If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"
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greygoose
MUSA Resident Joined: May 19 2012 Status: Offline Points: 158 |
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See what I mean..........
Now I'm a city paid pit bull. I wish I was.... until I came to this board, I had no idea that city employees made so much money. I don't even know who the hell Dr. Owens is, but rest assured, I will "look him up" if he spews the same type of hatred found on this board. Right.... poor Ms. Moon is just out there planting her flowers. Trust me, thats not the way I envision her. |
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"If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"
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Bocephus
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 838 |
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I guess some how I still like this town we need jobs that pay livable wages and then maybe it would come back to life. As far as renting my house out i would have to pass on it I cant afford to have it destroyed by renters.
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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goose, the slander, lack of factual analysis, innuendo, and rather bizarre outbursts can be seen easily. Hold a mirror to your face and see a reflection. Your deliberate and what appears malicious attempt to malign Vivian Moon is really over the top. Using your logic, the sale of houses at 30% of tax valuation means the city is doing an outstanding job? You can't seem to comprehend your own contradictions in logic and fact. And the conspiracy theory, all an attempt to cover up the city's focus upon Main Street with conspiracy spin. Even your friend sj as you have whittled away your own credibility, has openly stated the bias spending is associated with cronyism. In your book---that's a good thing. Playing in the wrong playground for spinning "super-shine" polish on the city's failings. But----here's a B- for effort.
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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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By the way, you never answered my question about why Mr. Adkins was “unjustly” praising Nelson & Associates & The Inspection Group. Is there a reason? Do you even know anything about these organizations? You had no problem making the statement. Why not answer the question?
I do not believe that the Inspection Group is still working for Nelson & Assoc. The last I heard the inspection were being done by Chase Construction that is located in Blue Ash. I will not comment on Nelson & Assoc at this time...however if you really want to know I would suggest you call them or Mr. Adkins Monday morning. |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Right.... poor Ms. Moon is just out there planting her flowers. Trust me, thats not the way I envision her.
Goose No...I and many other volunteers of this city no longer need the abuse from city hall... I do continue to work on the cemeteries however it does not require me to interact with City Hall. |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Thanks TonyB
A truer statement has never been spoken on this blog. I truly believe that we are just a few steps away from the edge of the cliff. I wish you well in your new home town. |
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TonyB
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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Vivian,
I'm actually just outside of Gratis with a Camden address so it's not like I moved across the country!!! lol greygoose, I don't know you (I think) but you must understand the frustration that many on this blog feel. Since you've read some of the back posts and discussions on here, you'll soon come to realize that "facts" are difficult to come by without checking through many different sources. As someone who does business in Middletown, I'm sure you can appreciate that there is an awful lot of sunshine being blown up people's nether regions without much substance to go with it. When I come into town now (as I do about twice a month), I am astounded at how bad the roads are! The combination of poor previous administration of our city and the lack of real "vision" by our city leadership has created a descending spiral which threatens catastrophe for property owners. I would investigate some of the previous discussions concerning NSP and CDBG funds and how they have been used. The declaration that all of Middletown can be labeled a "slum" has caused one of the worst inequities that I have ever witnessed in terms of using public money to benefit areas of town that simply didn't have the need. I would hope that everyone would step back from the emotional responses and finger pointing and try to reach an honest consensus of what to do and how to do it. IMO, that is where our city leadership has failed because they haven't gotten the citizenship of Middletown more informed, educated and involved. When you have to put a levy request up for a special election 2 months before the general election and say that is the only way we can pass it, you are, in essence, telling citizens that if you don't support us, just stay at home. That is not leadership, that is the "my way or the highway" mentality that is destroying this country as a whole and Middletown in particular. |
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greygoose
MUSA Resident Joined: May 19 2012 Status: Offline Points: 158 |
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By the way, you never answered my question about why Mr. Adkins was “unjustly” praising Nelson & Associates & The Inspection Group. Is there a reason? Do you even know anything about these organizations? You had no problem making the statement. Why not answer the question?
I do not believe that the Inspection Group is still working for Nelson & Assoc. The last I heard the inspection were being done by Chase Construction that is located in Blue Ash. I will not comment on Nelson & Assoc at this time...however if you really want to know I would suggest you call them or Mr. Adkins Monday morning. You and I both know why you won’t comment on Nelson & Associates! You, Ms. Viv, are a JOKE! You can dish out the BS but “have no comment” when you are called out! Stick to the flowers. |
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"If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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greygoose
MUSA Resident Joined: May 19 2012 Status: Offline Points: 158 |
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TonyB
I don't know you (I think) but you must understand the frustration that many on this blog feel. Since you've read some of the back posts and discussions on here, you'll soon come to realize that "facts" are difficult to come by without checking through many different sources. As someone who does business in Middletown, I'm sure you can appreciate that there is an awful lot of sunshine being blown up people's nether regions without much substance to go with it. When I come into town now (as I do about twice a month), I am astounded at how bad the roads are! The combination of poor previous administration of our city and the lack of real "vision" by our city leadership has created a descending spiral which threatens catastrophe for property owners. I share many of the same frustrations with the city as others on this board. However, just because the facts are hard to come by doesn’t give a person the right to make statements as though they are facts when, in reality, they are nothing more than opinions. Why not state it as an opinion. You can’t tell me you don’t see the blatant abuse of what is stated as fact. Why is that OK with everybody? Is it a mob mentality? I don’t know what causes it but I don’t want to be a part of it. I would investigate some of the previous discussions concerning NSP and CDBG funds and how they have been used. The declaration that all of Middletown can be labeled a "slum" has caused one of the worst inequities that I have ever witnessed in terms of using public money to benefit areas of town that simply didn't have the need. Middletown didn’t make that declaration, Ms. Vivian did. I understand that this qualification allows for the “possibility” of abuse, but prove to me that it actually occurred. If abuse occurred, I will jump on the bandwagon, but every time I look into something that was stated as a fact, I come back empty handed. What is wrong with asking for proof? Acclaro gave me some things to look into earlier today but I’m done wasting my time looking for truth out of Ms. Viv. She has an agenda that is longer worth my time. I would hope that everyone would step back from the emotional responses and finger pointing and try to reach an honest consensus of what to do and how to do it. IMO, that is where our city leadership has failed because they haven't gotten the citizenship of Middletown more informed, educated and involved. I agree… but did you notice that you posted “in my opinion”. I would love to take the emotional responses out of this dialog but I’ll be damned if I sit back and take BS because I have an opinion that is different than others on this board. Tomorrow is another day…. We’ll see how it goes.When you have to put a levy request up for a special election 2 months before the general election and say that is the only way we can pass it, you are, in essence, telling citizens that if you don't support us, just stay at home. That is not leadership, that is the "my way or the highway" mentality that is destroying this country as a whole and Middletown in particular. Agreed |
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"If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"
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TonyB
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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greygoose,
If you've read some of my posts on other subjects, I have opinions that are different than others here. The post you refer to here as my opinion, while I believe truthful, could not be considered "factual" because it is a matter of perceptions and not objective facts. I'm sure you could find people in the city who think that city leadership is doing a great job of keeping Middletown citizens informed, educated and involved. I can also be quite emotional and passionate about my opinions, however, I don't think you'd find any instance where I give BS to someone who differs from my opinion. Quite simply, I just don't take it personally. What you say about other people says more about you than it will ever say about them. If I disagree, I will try to present my point and refute points that I disagree with. I also like to think that I can be persuaded with a well reasoned argument. Life is just too short and there are more important things going on here than getting caught up in personal attacks. The future of Middletown is at stake and it's more important to me to find agreement on what should be done than whether it's my idea that prevails or not. |
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TonyB
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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greygoose,
I missed something that I wanted to say with your previous post. It wasn't Vivian who declared the entirety of Middletown a slum, that was done by invoking this 54% HUD rule so that the CDBG and NSP money could be spent anywhere in the city limit. I think that we both will agree that the entire city of Middletown is not a slum. I would even go so far as to assert this point as a fact. The city council and administration decided to invoke the slum designation, not any one individual. |
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greygoose
MUSA Resident Joined: May 19 2012 Status: Offline Points: 158 |
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TonyB,
I may be wrong, but my research concludes that there is no such thing as a HUD 54% rule (aka slum rule). It is a perfect example of how Ms. Viv's mis-statements get adopted as fact. My research indicates that Mr. Adkins discovered that the 2000 census showed that 54% of Middletown families were at a low or moderate income level. This "fact" qualified the entire city for NSP funding. Mr. Adkins pointed this fact out to city council and they agreed that revising the benefit to apply to the entire city was in the city's best interests. Please take note...... the entire city qualified using 2000 census numbers. Can you imagine where those numbers are now! I would agree that the entire city is not a slum. But who said that an area had to be a "slum" to qualify for this funding? It's another example of how Ms. Viv's misleading statements get adopted as fact on this board. Yesterday, she admitted that she coined the "slum" phases. Can you start to understand my frustration? If something is stated enough times, people tend to adopt is as truth. If my research is flawed, I invite anyone to prove otherwise. I am more than willing to go back to my source documents. |
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"If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"
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greygoose
MUSA Resident Joined: May 19 2012 Status: Offline Points: 158 |
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Acclaro, Per your suggestion, I checked into Dr. Owens (see video on bliptv). I have no problems with him pointing out our city’s flaws because, unlike you and the flock, he is offering a solution. Also, unlike you, I think that adding a community college to our downtown is a great idea. It sure beats the hell out of an art gallery in a factory town. I have very mixed feelings about the downtown area. I hate throwing good money after bad but I also hate to “give up” on it because I don’t like the alternative….. the alternative is something that the flock doesn’t seem to discuss. As I’ve said before, a four year old can point out the problems………but what is the alternative to investing in our downtown. Out of the left side of your mouth, you will state that it is better spent on the east end and out the right side of your mouth your will state that there are other parts of town that are in more need. The conversation becomes much more difficult when you have to do more than state obvious problems. For now, I think my support goes with the city (big surprise). By the way, your comments about Cincy State's enrolment and drop out rates are as misleading as something Ms. Viv might post. |
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"If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Hmmmm....to be a "shill" or a "flock", what a metaphoric analogy. You know GG, I think you are AJ Smith making a visit. You don't get it, so why bother. Version Downtown 5.0 still is not evidence enough in your warped mind. But again....how many pull guns out at the Duke meter reader and forget to file state forms for "donations." I'm watching paint dry with you.
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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Grey Goose states that $900,000 plus is being paid for outside contract services (Nelson & Associates, Etc.). If this is true, the City is now paying more that what CONSOC ever received.
My question remains, "Where's the hundred of thousands of dollars in savings that Judy G. and Doug A. talked about in their justification for dumping CONSOC?"
Nelson Self |
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greygoose
MUSA Resident Joined: May 19 2012 Status: Offline Points: 158 |
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Nelson, Ms. Viv,
Grey Goose states that $900,000 plus is being paid for outside contract services (Nelson & Associates, Etc.). If this is true, the City is now paying more that what CONSOC ever received. My question remains, "Where's the hundred of thousands of dollars in savings that Judy G. and Doug A. talked about in their justification for dumping CONSOC?" Nelson Self I haven’t been able to locate the document as of yet but I remember its contents. CONSOC’s bid was for 78% of HUD’s administrative funding while Nelson & Associates bid was for 80%. The big savings was achieved due to Nelson & Associates’ bid “including” the housing quality inspections while CONSOC’s didn’t. Currently, Chase Construction is handling the inspections for Nelson & Associates. I’m not 100% sure of the relationship between the two companies but I “think” that Chase is a subsidiary of Nelson & Associates. I do know that they referenced the change to Chase Construction as “bringing the inspections in house”. This would certainly explain why they would be able to include the costs of the inspections in their bid. |
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"If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"
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