Middletown vs. HUD
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: City Council
Forum Description: Discuss individual members and council as a legislative body.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4602
Printed Date: Nov 13 2024 at 1:40am
Topic: Middletown vs. HUD
Posted By: greygoose
Subject: Middletown vs. HUD
Date Posted: Jun 06 2012 at 3:44pm
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To all,
I’ve done a little research on Middletown’s Section 8 issue and discovered the following: Middletown has approximately 19,944 unit/months in which it is being paid by HUD for being a public housing agency. In other words, there are 1,662 rental units in the city being subsidized by HUD over a 12 month period (1,662 units x 12 months = 19,944 unit/months). In 2012, HUD is paying the city $62.29 for the first 7,200 unit/months and $58.13 for the remaining 12,744 unit/months or a total of $1,189,297 ($99,108.08/month). The city has hired Nelson and Associates to “administer” the program for 80% of the HUD “administrative” funding or an annual total of $951,438 ($79,287/month). The result is that the city of Middletown will earn the remaining 20% or $237,859 ($19,822/month) for ”being" the housing agency. From this amount, you must subtract the various, “difficult to measure”, costs associated with poverty (which is a prerequisite to qualifying for Section 8). Based on Mr. Adkins’ 2010 report to HUD, he is of the opinion that these related costs exceed the funding that they receive. A few points to ponder (and, in my opinion): 1. Because of the “locality preference” being a component of MPHA’s Section 8 program, it cannot be blamed for bringing poverty to the city. 2. If the program did not bring the poverty, it had to have already been here. This means that the program “enhanced” the lives of approximately 1,000, poverty stricken, Middletown families over the past ten years. 3. Initially, this growth had a positive benefit on the city because an additional $500,000+ per month was freed up to be spent in the local economy 4. Now, the growth has had numerous negative impacts on the city. To name a few: A. The economy has already absorbed the extra, subsidy, income B. All of the negatives associated with high poverty levels C. Worst of all (IMO), it put an extra 1,000 families at risk of becoming dependent upon the government for their survival. A dependency that is doomed for failure (for us all). 5. As it pertains to the explosion of additional Section 8 vouchers (over 1,000) being issued over the past ten years, the current city leadership is wrongly being blamed for the failed policies of their predecessors. I’ve seen nothing from current leadership that displays their support of the current number of vouchers; if anything, it has been just the opposite. While reading some “posts from the past” over the last few days, I stumbled across one from Nelson Self (I’m about 90% sure it was him) that stated the city “has” a way out of its current overabundance of Section 8 vouchers. According to his post, the city should just stand up for itself against HUD (and their insistence that the vouchers can’t be returned or transferred) and tell them that, on a specified date, the city will no longer “administer” their program. If you can prove that the program is damaging to the city, what recourse would HUD have? The idea struck a nerve with me and I’m just putting it out there for discussion. ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Replies:
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 06 2012 at 7:20pm
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To all, |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Jun 06 2012 at 7:48pm
| Whatever happened to Nelson Self? Why isn't he posting? Is he still in the area? |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 06 2012 at 8:52pm
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To all,
I’ve done a little research on Middletown’s Section 8 issue and discovered the following: Middletown has approximately 19,944 unit/months in which it is being paid by HUD for being a public housing agency. In other words, there are 1,662 rental units in the city being subsidized by HUD over a 12 month period (1,662 units x 12 months = 19,944 unit/months). In 2012, HUD is paying the city $62.29 for the first 7,200 unit/months and $58.13 for the remaining 12,744 unit/months or a total of $1,189,297 ($99,108.08/month). The city has hired Nelson and Associates to “administer” the program for 80% of the HUD “administrative” funding or an annual total of $951,438 ($79,287/month). The result is that the city of Middletown will earn the remaining 20% or $237,859 ($19,822/month) for ”being" the housing agency. From this amount, you must subtract the various, “difficult to measure”, costs associated with poverty (which is a prerequisite to qualifying for Section 8). Based on Mr. Adkins’ 2010 report to HUD, he is of the opinion that these related costs exceed the funding that they receive. A few points to ponder (and, in my opinion): 1. Because of the “locality preference” being a component of MPHA’s Section 8 program, it cannot be blamed for bringing poverty to the city. Every city has poverty areas. However…when we requested more vouchers each year people from other areas did come to Middletown to establish residence so they could be on the Section 8 program. City Hall also needed to increase the population of Middletown. I do not believe that we still have a local preference for the Section 8 Program I agree, but the number was negligible. 2. If the program did not bring the poverty, it had to have already been here. This means that the program “enhanced” the lives of approximately 1,000, poverty stricken, Middletown families over the past ten years. This in my opinion is where several problems merge together. We had a large section of Public Housing units already in Middletown. It was many of the residences from Public Housing that transferred into Section 8 Housing. This is new information to me. Thanks. 3. Initially, this growth had a positive benefit on the city because an additional $500,000+ per month was freed up to be spent in the local economy. I’m not sure that I fully agree with this statement. It is true that the majority of the income of the poor is spent with in our local economy. It seems that several things happened over a thirty year period that set the stage for we are now seeing. • We were not frugal with our money • We did not set money aside for the big projects that would be needed in the future. • Our school system became one of the worst in Ohio. • High paying manufacturing companies either closed their doors or reduced their employees. • We increased our city taxes and became business unfriendly. • High income families left our community. • We did not use the HUD Funds wisely to offset the impact of the high poverty levels that we brought into the city. I agree. Stated same in the following paragraph 4. Now, the growth has had numerous negative impacts on the city. To name a few: A. The economy has already absorbed the extra, subsidy, income B. All of the negatives associated with high poverty levels C. Worst of all (IMO), it put an extra 1,000 families at risk of becoming dependent upon the government for their survival. A dependency that is doomed for failure (for us all). 5. As it pertains to the explosion of additional Section 8 vouchers (over 1,000) being issued over the past ten years, the current city leadership is wrongly being blamed for the failed policies of their predecessors. I’ve seen nothing from current leadership that displays their support of the current number of vouchers; if anything, it has been just the opposite. This is where we really disagree. These Council Member are as guilty as our past leadership for diverting HUD Funds away from the high poverty high crime area for their special projects and friends of City Hall. And they are ready to rape it one more time for the LAND BANKING project without any input from the public and the areas that it will impact the most. I believe that Mr. Kohler is still gainfully employed by the city sooo can send him a Thank You Card for the Section 8 increase of vouchers. You are disagreeing with something other than my statement. My statement was clearly about Section 8 vouchers and your disagreement is about the misuse of HUD funds…. Two separate topics. But, since you brought it up, please bring me up to speed so that I can look into on my own. Seriously….. point me in the right direction. Land banking, if used properly, can be a very effective tool for the city. It is very similar to the landlord registration concept in that it allows the city to “force” compliance from vacant land owners or risk fines and/or seizure. An absolute great tool for local properties that big, out of state, bank “walk away” from. I know that “emergency legislation” is a controversial “tool” that council is often accused of using when they don’t want public input but, in this case, I’m comfortable that there were time constraints that forced their use of it. If I’m not mistaken, it was a matter of use it (emergency legislation) or lose it (millions in federal funds). I would be curious to know what your specific concerns with land banking are. While reading some “posts from the past” over the last few days, I stumbled across one from Nelson Self (I’m about 90% sure it was him) that stated the city “has” a way out of its current overabundance of Section 8 vouchers. According to his post, the city should just stand up for itself against HUD (and their insistence that the vouchers can’t be returned or transferred) and tell them that, on a specified date, the city will no longer “administer” their program. If you can prove that the program is damaging to the city, what recourse would HUD have? The idea struck a nerve with me and I’m just putting it out there for discussion. Nelson Self never posted that comment. You will need to provide me with proof of this statement. Nelson and I have stated numbers time on this blog that HUD would not reduce the number of vouchers in Middletown. I stand corrected. The post was made by Paul Nagy on the “Tale of Two Cities” thread on October 30, 2011 @ 1:47 PM. Following, is an excerpt of the post that I was referring to: Middletown has been more than generous in taking care of our needy. We must continue to be but not with the Section Eight Program. We must get rid of the Section Eight Program right away. How do we do this? The Administration and Council say it can’t be done. Well, that is not true. Solution: Establish a positive, proactive and aggressive plan to permanently remove Section Eight. 1. Tell HUD we refuse to accept any of their vouchers. Just say NO! 2. Give those who are not from Middletown 1 year to move elsewhere. 3. Give those who are able to work 1 year to get a job and get off of Section Eight. 4. If HUD gives us a problem get our State Representatives and Senators to Lobby HUD in our behalf pointing out the great damage it has done to our city or go to court. 5. Put in a new, competent program with Federal and State funding that will allow US to take care of our disabled, elderly and needy that live in Middletown. 6. Let the market provide tenants for the landlords. ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 6:34am
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greygoose, The Section 8 dispute has many differing points of view. I'd be interested in hearing what federal officials have to say about this program and just how many vouchers should be in a community. It seems that this program is being made the scapegoat/posterchild for the various crime and poverty problems in Middletown. I missed Mr. Nagy's proposal that you re-posted above previously but now that I've read it, I cannot agree with it. Refusing the vouchers will work but the idea that our city is going to tell residents who aren't from Middletown that they have to move is illegal. One year to get a job in this economy? Good luck with that. Our state and federal representatives don't care about Middletown, they care about getting re-elected; they are not going to do anything that might dissuade potential campaign contributors from supporting their candidacy. A new program doesn't just materialize out of thin air; it must be legislated to receive government funding. That's how we got the current programs. In the partisan political culture of today, there is no chance that a new program would emerge that would be effective and efficient. The market already provides tenants for landlords; those who can't afford to own because they don't have the credit to borrow. Without a diverse job market in Middletown, none of the current problems relating to poverty will improve. The "open for business" mantra has to be more than words. If council would come up with a better economic plan, the Section 8 and poverty problems would stand a much better chance of being resolved. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 7:04am
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greygoose- There is NOTHING GOOD ABOUT BRINGING AN OVERABUNDANCE OF SECTION 8, LOW INCOME, POVERTY STRICKEN, BLIGHT PRONE, TAXPAYER DEPENDENT, TAXPAYER HANDOUT, CRIMINAL ELEMENT ATTRACTING SEGMENT OF SOCIETY TO THIS CITY.
CONSULT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND ASK THEM WHAT THE SATURATION OF SECTION 8 HAS DONE TO THEIR OPERATION AND INCREASED CALLS. IT IS A PROGRAM THAT IS A SOURCE FOR CRIMINAL ACTIVITY/OUTSIDE THE CITY ELEMENT ATTRACTION TO TOWN. CHECK THE POLICE BRIEFS CONCERNING ARRESTS BY THE MIDDLETOWN POLICE INVOLVING PEOPLE FROM OUT OF TOWN. IT HAS INCREASED SINCE THE INTRODUCTION OF THIS PROGRAM AND HAS MADE THE COPS LIFE MORE DIFFICULT. SECTION 8, AS IT CURRENTLY IS, NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT, IS BAD FOR THIS CITY. IT HAS DAMAGED WHAT LITTLE SEMBLENCE OF CLASS THIS CITY HAD, IT INCREASED CRIME, IT SOAKS THE TAXPAYERS, AND HAS INVITED ALL TO THIS CITY FOR A HANDOUT. WE WILL NEVER TURN THIS CITY AROUND AS LONG AS THERE ARE PROGRAMS LIKE THIS. HAVING TO LIST AN OVERABUNDANCE OF SECTION 8 ON THE CITY'S RESUME, IS NOT GOING TO ATTRACT THE BETTER ELEMENTS OF SOCIETY TO THIS TOWN. IT IS A PROGRESS RETARDER, NOT A CATALYST IN IT'S CURRENT NUMBERS. JMO |
Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 9:59am
Seems like Middletown is a scale model of whats happening to the country in general we are creating a society that depends on handouts rather than hard work. It seems the norm these days is for people to get signed up for as many freebies as they can (why work) I as most of you on this board have allways worked and if one job wasn't enough then we just added another job or worked 50 or 60 hours a week to make it. Im afraid those days are long gone. My hope for any kind of change is slowly fading.
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VietVet wrote:Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 10:07am
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I remain baffled, indeed, mystified, as to what the intent and context of the discussion on Section 8 to be, coupled with the parallel discussion of the requirement for property registration. I also must state as a matter of opinion, grey goose, I have known many business leaders, property owners, and commercial tycoons, and I have found none openly shilling for regulation of a city charter and ordinance, or other legislation associated with the business they generate revenue. It runs in contradiction to entrepreneurship and owning a private business. Hence, why you are operating as such a strong advocate for this is mystifying. Due diligence usually involves an analysis of an acquisition and putting a value upon valuation, not formulation and defense of regulatory principles aimed at chocking a business or undermining its effectiveness. Further, I can't see the benefit to a property owner in having rentals closed. Arguably, it might create more demand and less competition, but unless I am missing something, I do not see how it is possible the rental demand to be healthy in Middletown. On the contrary, I see enormous overcapacity, empty properties, and houses sitting vacant for some period of time. Turning to Section 8, the reality is, the city does have the % of residents whom qualify for it, and the number of vouchers it provides. It is the cost and outcome of wanting federal funds on one hand, and the accompanying malaise and headache on another. The only manner Middletown attracts renters is through Section 8 demand; otherwise, property would be vacant. When property is vacant, you have the exhibition of vandalism and the circuitous circle of problems associated with vacancy. So---one can argue the value of Section 8 is actually better than vacant properties. Many in the city building would agree with that hypothesis. As many have stated, one cannot simply take away vouchers already requested and predicated upon those in need. One cannot possibly state Middletown doesn't have the numbers to support the vouchers, it does, and with poverty line numbers greater than 53% if not more. Those that state its an easy problem and the city should just make cuts, don't comprehend the problem and federal guidelines. Once pandora box was opened, it is impossible to do an about face. The fed, 8, and HUD just don't work that way. Mr. Adkins has offered other cities and those in possession of a voucher, to take it to another city. It would appear to most, that hasn't driven the decline in the numbers receiving it. As for crime and correlating it to Section 8, I say rubbage. The poliice will use any excuse to indicate crime is high, and offer an excuse. Poverty creates problems, and Middletown is full of it, but much poverty is not within a section 8 house. I also know from a few prominent rental owners, section 8 is a cash cow for them. That is my additional surprise for the avocation by grey goose that highly regulation initiatives are a good thing. I know of no true business owners whom actually believe regulation and fees taking margin out of their net gain, is a net +, unless one is a shill for the city. Bet that as it may, that's my two cents. Section 8 won't go away because it can't. It is justified in Middletown by true demographics. Think you re going to change the demographics? Why of course. There are 5,000 people that just can't wait to but a house in the Renaissance, and homes throughout Middletown. If you believe that, take a drive down memory lane on ThornHill and Curryer and witness how many houses are for sale. Its dismal and a dark shadow. Your debate is associated with something you neither have control nor influence. I learned long ago---control what you can control, relinquish what you cannot. Be advised: Section 8 is here to stay, whether you like it or not. As for regulations, when 100 people fill a room, about the same number that gather for Larry Mulligan's State (or failure thereof) associated of the Union annually, I see someone blinking. I suspect it will be Doug Adkins, Judy Gilleland, and Les Landen. But if not, that are cutting off their nose to spite their face. Vandalsim will become a bigger problem for police than running out to check on petty theft. Lower class and poverty moved into Middletown and Hamilton for a reason. They invited it. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 10:26am
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The Section 8 dispute has many differing points of view. I'd be interested in hearing what federal officials have to say about this program and just how many vouchers should be in a community. Public Housing and Section 8 numbers are determined by the population of a City. I believe that
It seems that this program is being made the scapegoat/posterchild for the various crime and poverty problems in I agree…The cause of the poverty problems clearly belong at the door steps of City Hall. I missed Mr. Nagy's proposal that you re-posted above previously but now that I've read it, I cannot agree with it. Refusing the vouchers will work but the idea that our city is going to tell residents who aren't from The Section 8 Program was established in the 60’s as apart of Lyndon Johnson’s “War On Poverty Program”. This like so many other well meaning social programs has become a feeding trough for the greedy government offices. Therefore only a small percentage of the money ever reaches the poor for which it was intended. Then we have the other side of this coin…Over the years I have watched the mind set change. Many that are currently on these programs are making very poor life choices that will insure that they and their children will remain in poverty for years to come. Many now receiving this help feel that are entitled to a free lunch forever. This is what we need to change if you really want the face of poverty to change in our community. Without a diverse job market in I agree…we need to educate the poor and get them ready for the job market. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 10:53am
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FOOD FOR THOUGHT.... How frustrating that most people overlook the waste, extravagance and misguided use of millions in HUD funds that is directly attributed to Mr. Adkins. By the way, whatever happened to Mr. Adkins housing code enforcement blitz of 2009, multi-year NSP housing plan and his two failed $20 million plus NSP grant applications, the frequent (unjustified) praises of Nelson Associates and the Inspection Group, etc., etc. He has a penchant for periodically making headline news for his grandiose plans. My question is, "where's the bacon?"
His tenure as Community Revitalization Director is seriously in need of an independent cost/benefit analysis. What has he really accomplished since early 2009 with the millions in HUD funds at his disposal? What could/should he have accomplished during this timeframe? |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 1:13pm
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VV,
I want to make sure that you are not misinterpreting my post. I am NOT in favor of our overabundance of Section 8 housing, far from it! I was trying to provide some logic as to why anyone would ever think that it was a good idea to grow the program. I tried to do this by pointing out a few of the “initial” benefits. However, I followed that statement with why, in the long term, it was a bad idea because of the poverty related problems that it “sustains”. The problems that you mention are related to poverty, not a housing program. However, the housing program, as it is currently being administered, promotes “institutional” poverty and government dependence. I agree with your most of your arguments concerning its negative effects on our city. With that said, how do you suggest that we fix the problem? HUD is on record that they will not allow the city to give back or transfer the vouchers. What do you suggest? Paul Nagy suggested that we just tell HUD “too bad“, it is hurting our city and we refuse to administer it anymore. What do you think of this idea? I like it on the surface but there are probably legal ramifications involved and we could kiss any future federal monies goodbye. ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 4:08pm
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Acclaro,
Your post struck a nerve and has me revealing more about me and my beliefs than I really wanted to share at this time. I remain baffled, indeed, mystified, as to what the intent and context of the discussion on Section 8 to be, coupled with the parallel discussion of the requirement for property registration. To me, the connection is that both involve “past their useful life” rental properties. Many “landlords” have been getting rich from these “blighted properties” for years. It is no secret that many of these “blighted properties” are rented to Section 8 voucher holders because tenants that could afford to pay their rent would not live in such properties. Mr. Adkins has already started correcting the problem by ensuring that HUD quality housing standards be followed during inspections. Although 100% correct and sorely needed, these new standards are costing landlord’s money and they are none too happy about it. The registration process will be another tool that will allow Mr. Adkins to apply similar standards to other, blighted, rental properties that are not leased to Section 8 tenants and it concerns many landlords because they will finally have to reach into their wallets on these properties as well . I also must state as a matter of opinion, grey goose, I have known many business leaders, property owners, and commercial tycoons, and I have found none openly shilling for regulation of a city charter and ordinance, or other legislation associated with the business they generate revenue. It runs in contradiction to entrepreneurship and owning a private business. Hence, why you are operating as such a strong advocate for this is mystifying. Before becoming a landlord, I worked in one of the most regulated industries in the world. We actually had a compliance officer whose only job was to be aware of and assure our compliance with, government regulations. In general, I am opposed to government regulations. Even those that were drafted with good intentions usually end up hurting tax payers more than helping. With that said….. I feel differently about this proposed ordinance because not only do I do business in Middletown, I live here! My family lives here! I am heavily invested in this city! I am tired of the status quo and drastic changes need to occur. Let’s be honest…. many landlords are not upset about a few dollars in fees; they are concerned about the amount of money that they may have to spend bringing their properties up to code. In many instances, they will walk away because the upgrade costs will exceed the home’s value. As a resident (and a landlord), I’m OK with that….. let them walk away and let the city tear down the house. I believe that city has to get our housing back in balance before it stands a chance of prospering again. For that to happen, studies have indicated that we need to rid ourselves of over 5,000 rental units. I am of the belief that we should “tear ‘em down”. Get rid of the old, “past your useful life”, type of rentals that add nothing positive to our city. Due diligence usually involves an analysis of an acquisition and putting a value upon valuation, not formulation and defense of regulatory principles aimed at chocking a business or undermining its effectiveness. Further, I can't see the benefit to a property owner in having rentals closed. Arguably, it might create more demand and less competition, but unless I am missing something, I do not see how it is possible the rental demand to be healthy in Middletown. On the contrary, I see enormous overcapacity, empty properties, and houses sitting vacant for some period of time. The problem is…… the over capacity of properties have outlived their useful lives. Nobody with a reasonable income wants houses that have three layers of shingles, windows painted shut, six square feet of closet space, a gravity flow furnace, harvest gold appliances, painted wood floors and window air conditioners (and those are the good ones). Turning to Section 8, the reality is, the city does have the % of residents whom qualify for it, and the number of vouchers it provides. It is the cost and outcome of wanting federal funds on one hand, and the accompanying malaise and headache on another. t. When property is vacant, you have the exhibition of vandalism and the The only manner Middletown attracts renters is through Section 8 demand; otherwise, property would be vacant circuitous circle of problems associated with vacancy. So---one can argue the value of Section 8 is actually better than vacant properties. Many in the city building would agree with that hypothesis. I would agree with you if there wasn’t a third option of “tear them down”. That is what I am advocating. I am not advocating that we have “green space” for the sake of green space. I am advocating that removing the blighted properties from our community will, in the long run, promote development. It also has the added benefit of reducing the number of properties that Section 8 voucher holders qualify for. As many have stated, one cannot simply take away vouchers already requested and predicated upon those in need. One cannot possibly state Middletown doesn't have the numbers to support the vouchers, it does, and with poverty line numbers greater than 53% if not more. Those that state its an easy problem and the city should just make cuts, don't comprehend the problem and federal guidelines. Once pandora box was opened, it is impossible to do an about face. The fed, 8, and HUD just don't work that way. Removing the blighted properties would solve this problem. It would also decentralize the “pockets” of poverty and its related problems that we have now. Mr. Adkins has offered other cities and those in possession of a voucher, to take it to another city. It would appear to most, that hasn't driven the decline in the numbers receiving it. As for crime and correlating it to Section 8, I say rubbage. The poliice will use any excuse to indicate crime is high, and offer an excuse. Poverty creates problems, and Middletown is full of it, but much poverty is not within a section 8 house. I also know from a few prominent rental owners, section 8 is a cash cow for them. That is my additional surprise for the avocation by grey goose that highly regulation initiatives are a good thing. I know of no true business owners whom actually believe regulation and fees taking margin out of their net gain, is a net +, unless one is a shill for the city. Another reason could be that I am a concerned citizen that just wants to do the right thing. The residents (tenants) of this city have provided my wife and me with a comfortable living. If some reasonable amount of expense needs to levied against me for the good of the city and its residents, so be it. To me, it is a small price to pay if you care about your hometown and your neighbors. I “expect” the registration process to lead to stricter building code enforcement and, in turn, increased costs. I am OK with that as long as it is uniformly enforced and the result is better maintained homes or the demo of those that choose not to comply. Bet that as it may, that's my two cents. Section 8 won't go away because it can't. It is justified in Middletown by true demographics. Think you re going to change the demographics? Why of course. There are 5,000 people that just can't wait to but a house in the Renaissance, and homes throughout Middletown. If you believe that, take a drive down memory lane on ThornHill and Curryer and witness how many houses are for sale. Its dismal and a dark shadow. Again, they can’t rent them if they are not there. Tear ‘em down……all 5,000+ of them Your debate is associated with something you neither have control nor influence. I learned long ago---control what you can control, relinquish what you cannot. Be advised: Section 8 is here to stay, whether you like it or not. As for regulations, when 100 people fill a room, about the same number that gather for Larry Mulligan's State (or failure thereof) associated of the Union annually, I see someone blinking. I suspect it will be Doug Adkins, Judy Gilleland, and Les Landen. But if not, that are cutting off their nose to spite their face. Vandalsim will become a bigger problem for police than running out to check on petty theft. Lower class and poverty moved into Middletown and Hamilton for a reason. They invited it. I can tell you with 100% certainty that Section 8 is not here to stay! If nothing else, it will eventually succumb to the fact that our federal government won’t be able to fund it. It is just a matter of time before the checks stop. Now you know how I really feel! I am not a city cheerleader; just a concerned citizen that feels that this city deserves more than what it is getting. ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: LMAO
Date Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 6:46pm
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greygoose Let’s be honest…. many landlords are not upset about a few dollars in fees; they are concerned about the amount of money that they may have to spend bringing their properties up to code. In many instances, they will walk away because the upgrade costs will exceed the home’s value. As a resident (and a landlord), I’m OK with that….. let them walk away and let the city tear down the house. I believe that city has to get our housing back in balance before it stands a chance of prospering again. For that to happen, studies have indicated that we need to rid ourselves of over 5,000 rental units. I am of the belief that we should “tear ‘em down”. Get rid of the old, “past your useful life”, type of rentals that add nothing positive to our city. Im not concern about the fees nor the inspection cost.Before I got the money from the Bank,I had to pay for a inspection on all three of my properties If they didnt pass,I would of had to either pay to get it up to code or wouldnt get the loan,So our spineless ones need to come up with another way to rip off the "TAXPAYERS." Also whoever does the inspections for the Section8,needs to do suprise inspections cos a few of them on it our doing things that would land there Lazy Asses in jail. |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 7:05pm
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LMAO
We agree! Suprise inspections would result in hundreds of disqualifications. GG ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 7:30pm
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Here is some “out of the box thinking”. Rather than additional layoffs, a Detroit Fire Department official is proposing they use firefighters to assist with the demolition of vacant structures.
He stated: "I believe the sooner we can get rid of these vacant homes, the better off we're going to be," he said. "One reason people are not coming back to the city is because it looks like hell." Sound familiar? - - http://on.freep.com/I21PTT GG ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 9:04pm
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Viv,
What do you know about Nelson & Associates that justifies your comment that Mr. Adkins unjustly praises them? Same question concerning the Inspection Group? Have you had any direct interaction with either company? GG ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Jun 08 2012 at 10:09pm
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Tony B, Middletown will never pull out of it's nose dive as long as it's leaders can not focus on one project or another period. First it was the East end that was going to be our Saviour, Now it seems to be put on hold and little effirt is being made to market it. Next the city caught wind of a possible train stop coming to town, the jumped up and down with glee wetting their pants with excitement. While most of us sat here and discussed logically why a train wouldn't come here, they continued their joyful romp. Now it is the downtown again fro about the 9th time. Middletown has no leadership that uses logic for most of it's decision as far as I am concerned. Hence the downward slide continues. Pacman  |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 5:58am
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Pacman & Tony |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 8:13am
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Viv,
I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. However, every time I dig into your statements or one of your quoted facts, I come up empty. Most recently, I decided to investigate the origin of the 54% rule, the so called “slum rule” that is so detrimental to Middletown or, as you call it, “Slumville”. Upon looking into the matter………... I found that Mr. Adkins, upon discovering that 54% of Middletown households had low to moderate income, informed city council that the entire city qualified as a CDBG target area. He proposed an amendment to the Consolidated Plan that would expand the area eligible for benefits to the entire city. He didn’t coin the terms “slum rule” or “Slumville USA”, you did. All that he did was present an opportunity to expand the city’s benefits and those that we elected to represent us agreed with him. Due to some “whacked out” reasoning, you seem to think that that everybody that doesn’t agree with your thinking is bad for our city. I’ve got news for you……coining terms like “Slumville” is bad for this city. Because of your inability to be objective, I believe that nobody takes you seriously other than a couple of like-minded quacks that used to post on this board. If you think that you can do better, run for the position. I know of two votes that you will get for sure. Until then, count on me to be around to point out your “bad habit” of stating your opinion as fact. I can only imagine the amusement that you provide to our city leaders. ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 8:27am
quack quack
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Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 9:32am
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This “blows my mind” ………….I have discovered the “primary” reason that city council let the number of Section 8 vouchers get “out of hand” since the turn of the century. While researching the origin of the 54% rule, I ran across this little detail while on the city web site:
In 2008, the City of Middletown conducted an operations review of the HCV program to determine whether to continue providing this service or to discontinue its participation in the program. After reviewing its options, the Middletown City Council decided to continue its relationship with HUD by managing and providing an HCV program. The City Council also decided that a total review of HCV program operations was appropriate in order to assure that the program was being managed and operated with a high level of proficiency. The program review indicated that the Middletown City Council had been unaware that it also functioned as the City’s public housing agency. Regular meetings of the MPHA had never been held. Consequently, one of the outcomes of the program review was a recommendation that the MPHA conduct regularly scheduled meetings. Unbelievable……….. until the 2008 operational review to determine the city’s continued participation in the Section 8 program, city council DID NOT KNOW THAT THEY WERE THE AGENCY that ran the Section 8 program. ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 9:48am
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Grey Goose, yor credibility and indeed motives, have now vanquished with any degree of credibility. To remotely suggest Vivian Moon is the cause and detriment to the Middletown brand is honestly "laughable." I have never met Ms. Moon personally, but I do know her reputation for volunteerism, fact findig, and franky, objectivity is well known and respected. I also can state from my vantage, while the con and pep rally you espouse about Middletown may be shared by perhaps 30 people in town, I have personally spoken to many of the most prominet in education, net worth, and time in the community as an investment, and are simply sick of the town, sick of the leadership. Let me give you an example. I recently spoke to a 4th Generation Armco/ AK worker, actually a retired engineering executive. Been in Middletown all of his life. He slammed the city, its leadership, its greed, its corruption, and stated in no uncertain terms, he would not be voting for the Sr Citizens levy (they should move to the building across from John XXIII without the taxpayer bailout) nor the city safety levey, nor the school levey. His grandson goes to John XXIII because of the disgrace the school system has evolved (his words, not mine). The audicity of you making such a comment about Ms. Moon, and I reiterate, I have never met her, and she me, and frankly, doubt if I'd know her if I walked right past her, is quite apparent, you are a shill for the city. Simply out, you have no credibility, and far worse that the "atrocities" you allege Ms. Moon to have made with "Slumville." My God man (or woman), I can tell you the richest and most prominent families in Middletown are utterly embarrassed by Middletown. Their children move away as uick as possible from college and are so embarrassed by Middletown they don't even acknowledge they ever lived in the city. What it is obvious you are a city shill, let me say this. The city of Middletown and Dr. O'dell Owens has done more harm in bashing Middletown and pointing out its flaws, than anything Ms. Moon has stated about "Slumsville." Middletown's reputation hs been hoorific for decad.es, and has really gone down since 2000. Dr. Owens states openly, he hopes Cincinnati State can turn Middletown around, you are in serious trouble. I mean, a small community college with a drop out ate of 50%, is a savior to a city of 50,000? The renaming of Main Street is going to elevate property values? Get real. That purpose is to help the guys down on Main Street. You don't have to have Jim Morrison's IQ of 139 to figure that one out. Do us a favor, as you are so concerned about Middletown's brand, and call Dr. Owens and ask him to turn down his rhetoric about C State saving the plight of Middletown, will you? Post away gg, but I suspect you are on retainer with city hall. As for making council aware the whole city had pockets which qualified it for HUD funds and such, that was an obvious purpose; it took funds and put them where city leaders could chose where they wished to prop up. Guess where those areas are? Main Street USA. In summary, the laughing stock image Middletown has is far more affected by the desperation of having anything the city can spin trying to pump up and enhance the rationale for its enormous waste of funds downtown, to satisfy the members on council and the city, living on Main Street and making it become a mini version of Lebanon, lets call it Lebanon Light. If the city was moving forward, why did Tony Marconi that was a city council member, leave for the magnificent tranquility of Monroe? Well...at least he was able to get out. Bravo. , ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 9:53am
Well said I only wish that I could "get out"
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Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 10:44am
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Motives!!!!! You have the nerve to question my motives. Almost every message that Viv posts spews negativity. Tell me….. what does that do for the city other than to rally other goof-ball conspiracy nuts? There is nothing constructive about her posts….. she has a personal agenda against the city and won’t stop spewing hatred until she finally goes off the deep end. Have you ever seen her reply to my questions when I call her out about one of her lies? I’ll answer for you…..NO.
I used to think that you were one of the more objective posters on this board, but your need to come to Ms. Viv’s aid tells me that you are no more objective than she is. You can honestly tell me that every leader that this city has had in the past 30 years in “in it for themselves” give me a break. This city’s leaders have, historically, made some poor decisions. But, and a very big but……… the city also had the deck stacked against it because it is an old, industrial, town that was developed before this new world emerged. Do you think that it is an accident that other, old, industrial towns are going through the same thing? What about Hamilton? What about Springfield? What about Canton? Do all of these old, industrial, towns have inept, corrupt, city governments? Of course not! These cities were developed under one set of rules and the rules have changed. To be honest, I’m not sure that the most visionary of leaders could have changed these cities as the times changed…..the citizens were too rooted to the industries that put bread on their tables. The kids from these towns went to work at “the mill” instead of furthering their education. Culturally, this town is “Blue Collar” and there are no blue collar jobs to be had. Why is there never any discussion about this. I’ll tell you why…… you are bullies and cowards! You tear down others to make yourselves feel better about your own miserable lives! If a new poster comes in and expresses opposing views they are accused of spinning for the city leaders. Do you realize how easy it is to do what you do. A four year old can tell you what is wrong with something. If you want to accomplish something, try coming up with ideas that may solve our city’s problems. You are either too cowardly or too stupid to do that. As I read the history of this board, my opinions started changing. Initially, I was thought “wow…. these people are tuned in”. After reading the same old garbage for four years, I realized that you are do nothing haters. The only exception being Spider. You have yet to suck all of the objectivity out of him (but I’m sure that you are trying). This board tends to condemn city leaders for being city leaders. I’ve read the same ole’ crap for the last four years. If your ideas are so much better, run for office! Wait…. you’ve already tried that and it didn’t work out too well. That’s because Joe Average citizen doesn’t buy into all of this conspiracy BS. I’ve even read where a councilman logged on to answer some concerns and was met with disrespect. As far as I’m concerned, Viv can crawl back into the hole that she slithered out of and you can follow her and the seven of you can keep telling each other how smart you are. At least in this forum, not many people have to listen to it! ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 10:46am
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If you want out, get out! Haven't you heard..... it's real easy to rent your house in this town! ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 12:38pm
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Viv, |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 12:59pm
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To the above posters, Is it any wonder why this city is so polarized? Go back and look at the accusations hurled at each other and remember one very important phrase: "Divide and "Conquer"!!! Quite frankly, that is exactly what you are doing here while those with the power to change things in Middletown continue on their merry way to make things better for themselves. There is certainly nothing wrong with honest discussion and disagreement, however; hurling accusations and questioning motives does not lead to a consensus and that is what is needed here. What are you hoping to achieve on this blog about this subject? Venting some frustration? Pointing out the obvious inequities of our current system? Spotlighting wasteful government spending? If the situation in Middletown is ever going to change, a consensus of what needs to be done needs to occur. I know of one group that has a consensus: Middletown Moving Forward!!! If you don't agree with what this group is espousing, you'd best get organized around an agenda that you can believe in and work to achieve because MMF is forwarding their agenda as we speak! As for this being fact or opinion, I'll let you decide. But you'd better be quick about it or what is happening in Middletown will reach the point that it can't be reversed. I can now make these comments as an outside observer because I no longer live in Middletown. It does pain me to see the town that I consider my hometown in such trouble. I just hope that someone or a group of someones can bring about the changes that are needed to indeed move Middletown forward again! |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 1:13pm
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This is what is wrong with you. You state things as fact and they’re not.
Ahh Greygoose • The 54% rule was a known fact long before Mr. Adkins took office. Prove to me that this fact was known before Mr. Adkins discovered it. You made the statement as though it was fact….. prove it! For that matter, prove that there is anything officially known as the 54% rule. • How many other cities in Ohio requested additional Section 8 vouchers? Oh my God! You used a question mark. I have no idea how many cities requested additional Section 8 vouchers. How does that question have any relevance on this subject? For the record, I feel that adding all of those vouchers was a huge mistake but it has nothing to do with this group of city leaders. You falsely imply that they are guilty of these mistakes. The Coucil didn’t even know that they were in charge of the housing agency until 2008. • How many other cities in Ohio have enacted legislation to declared their entire town of 50,000 residence “Slumville <st1:country-region>USA</st1:country-region>” so they could manipulate HUD funds away from the poverty areas? There you go again. The city didn’t “declare” anything…. You and your thoughtless cronies did. He didn’t coin the terms “slum rule” or “Slumville <st1:country-region>USA</st1:country-region>”, you did. Yes I did. And its really sad that you appear proud of it. It does nothing positive for the city in any way……. It just feeds your agenda. I want to feel sorry for you but can’t. It must be hell waking up each morning. All that he did was present an opportunity to expand the city’s benefits and those that we elected to represent us agreed with him. Due to some “whacked out” reasoning, you seem to think that that everybody that doesn’t agree with your thinking is bad for our city. Are you seriously saying that you believe that the Highlands Historic District is a high poverty, high crime areas that deserve and needs HUD funding? I’m saying that I like the idea of the money being used where it best serves the citizens….. not where it best serves Ms. Viv. I’ve got news for you……coining terms like “Slumville” is bad for this city. Wasting our tax dollars is even worse for our city but you don’t seem to object to that. Show me proof. You state it as fact….. show me proof! Because of your inability to be objective, I believe that nobody takes you seriously other than a couple of like-minded quacks that used to post on this board. If you think that you can do better, run for the position. I know of two votes that you will get for sure. Until then, count on me to be around to point out your “bad habit” of stating your opinion as fact. I can only imagine the amusement that you provide to our city leaders. Lord knows that I do try to keep them amused By the way, you never answered my question about why Mr. Adkins was “unjustly” praising Nelson & Associates & The Inspection Group. Is there a reason? Do you even know anything about these organizations? You had no problem making the statement. Why not answer the question? ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 1:15pm
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goose, my objectivity is bred through the professional aspects of my career, I do it for a living. I assuredly don't need to criticize the ineptness of city leaders nor council to boost to image or self worth. On the contrary, illuminates the contempt I have for those whom defend and have their heads in the sand while others have destroyed it decade after decade. TonyB, with all due respect, its over with Middletown, Its gone, history. Yeah, AK will be around, Levy got MUM in and the tenured life payroll taxes, but the city is like Russia. Too much infrastructure and mass to maintain, and too few to pay the taxes to sustain it. Amazing arguments such as goose advances for "excusing" Middletown are not also met with the realization the city has maintained its number of personal, and eating habits, leading to the phrase, "feeding the beast", while reminding the gullible, that old world economy just has impeded Middletown for years. No, it was the union mindset and laziness, the unwillingness to do the heavy lifting, that sank Middletown. Hamilton gets by only by being a county seat. Both cities are dominated by public sector payroll. Better to have head held up with eyes open, than walking with head covered under sand, and bumping into walls daily.
------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 1:15pm
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This “blows my mind” ………….I have discovered the “primary” reason that city council let the number of Section 8 vouchers get “out of hand” since the turn of the century. While researching the origin of the 54% rule, I ran across this little detail while on the city web site: Are you telling me that that Mr. Kohler withheld this information from several city managers and several city councils over the years?
I believe it was in 2008 that Ms Judy strongly suggested that the city turn the program over to |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 1:25pm
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goose, so the city pays you to be the pit bull attacking Vivian Moon for planting flowers and shrubs, and attempting to maintain the cemetery? What a horrid commentary on city propaganda. Please, do make a call to Dr. O' Dell Owens about his efforts to tarnish Middletown. When does the train ride "Bright Past, Brighter Future" end with you? Is your retainer long associated with the city shill work? Be careful...the city has a habit of cooking the goose that laid the golden egg.
------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 1:30pm
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TonyB,
You are absolutely right in your statements......BUT, BUT, BUT, BUT WHERE IS THE HONEST DISCUSSION & DISAGREEMENT!!!!! There is none. That was what I was looking for when I joined this board but soon discovered that there is no honest discussion & disagreement. When someone posts 100's of neagative messages about the city but refuses to respond to any questions or disagreement, what are you supposed to do? Don't look at today's posts.... look at the two weeks worth of posts leading up to today's "tirade". You can not have an honest discussion on this message board. If you say something complimentary of the city, you are labled as a "city shill". If you are willing to pay a little extra and endure a little inconvenience for the overall good of the city, you're labled as a freaking nut case. Seriously, what is truly being accomplished with the way this board is ran. You step in line with the negativity or "we will take our ball and go home". Until it changes, nobody will take it seriously. I know I won't....... and I really wanted to. ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 1:38pm
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See what I mean..........
Now I'm a city paid pit bull. I wish I was.... until I came to this board, I had no idea that city employees made so much money. I don't even know who the hell Dr. Owens is, but rest assured, I will "look him up" if he spews the same type of hatred found on this board. Right.... poor Ms. Moon is just out there planting her flowers. Trust me, thats not the way I envision her. ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 4:48pm
I guess some how I still like this town we need jobs that pay livable wages and then maybe it would come back to life. As far as renting my house out i would have to pass on it I cant afford to have it destroyed by renters.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 5:09pm
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goose, the slander, lack of factual analysis, innuendo, and rather bizarre outbursts can be seen easily. Hold a mirror to your face and see a reflection. Your deliberate and what appears malicious attempt to malign Vivian Moon is really over the top. Using your logic, the sale of houses at 30% of tax valuation means the city is doing an outstanding job? You can't seem to comprehend your own contradictions in logic and fact. And the conspiracy theory, all an attempt to cover up the city's focus upon Main Street with conspiracy spin. Even your friend sj as you have whittled away your own credibility, has openly stated the bias spending is associated with cronyism. In your book---that's a good thing. Playing in the wrong playground for spinning "super-shine" polish on the city's failings. But----here's a B- for effort.
------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 5:13pm
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By the way, you never answered my question about why Mr. Adkins was “unjustly” praising Nelson & Associates & The Inspection Group. Is there a reason? Do you even know anything about these organizations? You had no problem making the statement. Why not answer the question?
I do not believe that the Inspection Group is still working for Nelson & Assoc. The last I heard the inspection were being done by Chase Construction that is located in Blue Ash. I will not comment on Nelson & Assoc at this time...however if you really want to know I would suggest you call them or Mr. Adkins Monday morning. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 5:31pm
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Right.... poor Ms. Moon is just out there planting her flowers. Trust me, thats not the way I envision her.
Goose No...I and many other volunteers of this city no longer need the abuse from city hall... I do continue to work on the cemeteries however it does not require me to interact with City Hall. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 5:46pm
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Thanks TonyB
A truer statement has never been spoken on this blog. I truly believe that we are just a few steps away from the edge of the cliff. I wish you well in your new home town. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 7:20pm
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Vivian, I'm actually just outside of Gratis with a Camden address so it's not like I moved across the country!!! lol greygoose, I don't know you (I think) but you must understand the frustration that many on this blog feel. Since you've read some of the back posts and discussions on here, you'll soon come to realize that "facts" are difficult to come by without checking through many different sources. As someone who does business in Middletown, I'm sure you can appreciate that there is an awful lot of sunshine being blown up people's nether regions without much substance to go with it. When I come into town now (as I do about twice a month), I am astounded at how bad the roads are! The combination of poor previous administration of our city and the lack of real "vision" by our city leadership has created a descending spiral which threatens catastrophe for property owners. I would investigate some of the previous discussions concerning NSP and CDBG funds and how they have been used. The declaration that all of Middletown can be labeled a "slum" has caused one of the worst inequities that I have ever witnessed in terms of using public money to benefit areas of town that simply didn't have the need. I would hope that everyone would step back from the emotional responses and finger pointing and try to reach an honest consensus of what to do and how to do it. IMO, that is where our city leadership has failed because they haven't gotten the citizenship of Middletown more informed, educated and involved. When you have to put a levy request up for a special election 2 months before the general election and say that is the only way we can pass it, you are, in essence, telling citizens that if you don't support us, just stay at home. That is not leadership, that is the "my way or the highway" mentality that is destroying this country as a whole and Middletown in particular. |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 11:17pm
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By the way, you never answered my question about why Mr. Adkins was “unjustly” praising Nelson & Associates & The Inspection Group. Is there a reason? Do you even know anything about these organizations? You had no problem making the statement. Why not answer the question?
I do not believe that the Inspection Group is still working for Nelson & Assoc. The last I heard the inspection were being done by Chase Construction that is located in Blue Ash. I will not comment on Nelson & Assoc at this time...however if you really want to know I would suggest you call them or Mr. Adkins Monday morning. You and I both know why you won’t comment on Nelson & Associates! You, Ms. Viv, are a JOKE! You can dish out the BS but “have no comment” when you are called out! Stick to the flowers. ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 11:37pm
 ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 11:43pm
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TonyB
I don't know you (I think) but you must understand the frustration that many on this blog feel. Since you've read some of the back posts and discussions on here, you'll soon come to realize that "facts" are difficult to come by without checking through many different sources. As someone who does business in Middletown, I'm sure you can appreciate that there is an awful lot of sunshine being blown up people's nether regions without much substance to go with it. When I come into town now (as I do about twice a month), I am astounded at how bad the roads are! The combination of poor previous administration of our city and the lack of real "vision" by our city leadership has created a descending spiral which threatens catastrophe for property owners. I share many of the same frustrations with the city as others on this board. However, just because the facts are hard to come by doesn’t give a person the right to make statements as though they are facts when, in reality, they are nothing more than opinions. Why not state it as an opinion. You can’t tell me you don’t see the blatant abuse of what is stated as fact. Why is that OK with everybody? Is it a mob mentality? I don’t know what causes it but I don’t want to be a part of it. I would investigate some of the previous discussions concerning NSP and CDBG funds and how they have been used. The declaration that all of Middletown can be labeled a "slum" has caused one of the worst inequities that I have ever witnessed in terms of using public money to benefit areas of town that simply didn't have the need. Middletown didn’t make that declaration, Ms. Vivian did. I understand that this qualification allows for the “possibility” of abuse, but prove to me that it actually occurred. If abuse occurred, I will jump on the bandwagon, but every time I look into something that was stated as a fact, I come back empty handed. What is wrong with asking for proof? Acclaro gave me some things to look into earlier today but I’m done wasting my time looking for truth out of Ms. Viv. She has an agenda that is longer worth my time. I would hope that everyone would step back from the emotional responses and finger pointing and try to reach an honest consensus of what to do and how to do it. IMO, that is where our city leadership has failed because they haven't gotten the citizenship of Middletown more informed, educated and involved. I agree… but did you notice that you posted “in my opinion”. I would love to take the emotional responses out of this dialog but I’ll be damned if I sit back and take BS because I have an opinion that is different than others on this board. Tomorrow is another day…. We’ll see how it goes.When you have to put a levy request up for a special election 2 months before the general election and say that is the only way we can pass it, you are, in essence, telling citizens that if you don't support us, just stay at home. That is not leadership, that is the "my way or the highway" mentality that is destroying this country as a whole and Middletown in particular. Agreed ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Jun 10 2012 at 12:03am
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greygoose, If you've read some of my posts on other subjects, I have opinions that are different than others here. The post you refer to here as my opinion, while I believe truthful, could not be considered "factual" because it is a matter of perceptions and not objective facts. I'm sure you could find people in the city who think that city leadership is doing a great job of keeping Middletown citizens informed, educated and involved. I can also be quite emotional and passionate about my opinions, however, I don't think you'd find any instance where I give BS to someone who differs from my opinion. Quite simply, I just don't take it personally. What you say about other people says more about you than it will ever say about them. If I disagree, I will try to present my point and refute points that I disagree with. I also like to think that I can be persuaded with a well reasoned argument. Life is just too short and there are more important things going on here than getting caught up in personal attacks. The future of Middletown is at stake and it's more important to me to find agreement on what should be done than whether it's my idea that prevails or not. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Jun 10 2012 at 12:11am
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greygoose, I missed something that I wanted to say with your previous post. It wasn't Vivian who declared the entirety of Middletown a slum, that was done by invoking this 54% HUD rule so that the CDBG and NSP money could be spent anywhere in the city limit. I think that we both will agree that the entire city of Middletown is not a slum. I would even go so far as to assert this point as a fact. The city council and administration decided to invoke the slum designation, not any one individual. |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 10 2012 at 12:46am
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TonyB,
I may be wrong, but my research concludes that there is no such thing as a HUD 54% rule (aka slum rule). It is a perfect example of how Ms. Viv's mis-statements get adopted as fact. My research indicates that Mr. Adkins discovered that the 2000 census showed that 54% of Middletown families were at a low or moderate income level. This "fact" qualified the entire city for NSP funding. Mr. Adkins pointed this fact out to city council and they agreed that revising the benefit to apply to the entire city was in the city's best interests. Please take note...... the entire city qualified using 2000 census numbers. Can you imagine where those numbers are now! I would agree that the entire city is not a slum. But who said that an area had to be a "slum" to qualify for this funding? It's another example of how Ms. Viv's misleading statements get adopted as fact on this board. Yesterday, she admitted that she coined the "slum" phases. Can you start to understand my frustration? If something is stated enough times, people tend to adopt is as truth. If my research is flawed, I invite anyone to prove otherwise. I am more than willing to go back to my source documents. ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 10 2012 at 1:29am
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Acclaro, Per your suggestion, I checked into Dr. Owens (see video on bliptv). I have no problems with him pointing out our city’s flaws because, unlike you and the flock, he is offering a solution. Also, unlike you, I think that adding a community college to our downtown is a great idea. It sure beats the hell out of an art gallery in a factory town. I have very mixed feelings about the downtown area. I hate throwing good money after bad but I also hate to “give up” on it because I don’t like the alternative….. the alternative is something that the flock doesn’t seem to discuss. As I’ve said before, a four year old can point out the problems………but what is the alternative to investing in our downtown. Out of the left side of your mouth, you will state that it is better spent on the east end and out the right side of your mouth your will state that there are other parts of town that are in more need. The conversation becomes much more difficult when you have to do more than state obvious problems. For now, I think my support goes with the city (big surprise). By the way, your comments about Cincy State's enrolment and drop out rates are as misleading as something Ms. Viv might post. ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 10 2012 at 9:45am
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Hmmmm....to be a "shill" or a "flock", what a metaphoric analogy. You know GG, I think you are AJ Smith making a visit. You don't get it, so why bother. Version Downtown 5.0 still is not evidence enough in your warped mind. But again....how many pull guns out at the Duke meter reader and forget to file state forms for "donations." I'm watching paint dry with you. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 17 2012 at 9:59am
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Grey Goose states that $900,000 plus is being paid for outside contract services (Nelson & Associates, Etc.). If this is true, the City is now paying more that what CONSOC ever received.
My question remains, "Where's the hundred of thousands of dollars in savings that Judy G. and Doug A. talked about in their justification for dumping CONSOC?"
Nelson Self |
Posted By: greygoose
Date Posted: Jun 18 2012 at 12:33pm
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Nelson, Ms. Viv,
Grey Goose states that $900,000 plus is being paid for outside contract services (Nelson & Associates, Etc.). If this is true, the City is now paying more that what CONSOC ever received. My question remains, "Where's the hundred of thousands of dollars in savings that Judy G. and Doug A. talked about in their justification for dumping CONSOC?" Nelson Self I haven’t been able to locate the document as of yet but I remember its contents. CONSOC’s bid was for 78% of HUD’s administrative funding while Nelson & Associates bid was for 80%. The big savings was achieved due to Nelson & Associates’ bid “including” the housing quality inspections while CONSOC’s didn’t. Currently, Chase Construction is handling the inspections for Nelson & Associates. I’m not 100% sure of the relationship between the two companies but I “think” that Chase is a subsidiary of Nelson & Associates. I do know that they referenced the change to Chase Construction as “bringing the inspections in house”. This would certainly explain why they would be able to include the costs of the inspections in their bid. ------------- "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got" |