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Vivian Moon ![]() MUSA Council ![]() Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Mayor to visit branch campuses in Massachusetts
Mayor, attorney will take a trip to community college sites.
Staff Writer MIDDLETOWN — Although city officials have been adamant about signing a deal to begin a Cincinnati State branch campus in Middletown, there is some due diligence to be done. Mayor Larry Mulligan and attorney Greg Pratt will fly to “We know Plans are moving forward to meet with school officials, each city’s mayor and local business leaders. The two also plan to walk around each city. “Do we expect to come back with any surprises or changes? No we don’t,” Pratt said. “It’s just one of those things you feel like you have to do to be careful and prudent, and it wouldn’t be wise to go forward without that.” Although final plans are still being made, the trip is estimated to cost the city about $900 to cover expenses such as flights, hotel accommodations and a rental car. According to City Manager Judy Gilleland, the money will likely come from the city’s downtown improvement fund. It’s worth the investment, she said. “I can’t imagine being involved in a multimillion-dollar deal that could potentially affect an entire downtown area and community without physically visiting locations and verifying the work and getting tips from cities who have experienced these sorts of projects,” she said. Mulligan and Pratt both said they were willing to dip into their own pockets to help cover costs. “I’m looking to see what I can afford to pay for out of my pocket so the burden isn’t completely on the city,” Mulligan said. “This is something you can’t get over the phone or in an email exchange.” |
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acclaro ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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"Due diligence" from the lips of anyone in council or city hall, really means, "boondoggle." Priceless.
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VietVet ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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"We know Cincinnati State has already been out there to do their due diligence,” said Pratt, who has served as a consultant to the city on the Cincinnati State project. “But we’re probably not in a place for Cincinnati State to do their due diligence for us. We have to do it ourselves".......
Definition of DUE DILIGENCE 1: the care that a reasonable person exercises to avoid harm to other persons or their property 2: research and analysis of a company or organization done in preparation for a business transaction (as a corporate merger or purchase of securities) Plans are moving forward to meet with school officials, each city’s mayor and local business leaders. The two also plan to walk around each city... WALK AROUND THE CITY HUH? IMPORTANT STUFF GOING ON HERE. IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO SEND TWO OF OUR MOST DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMEN ON A VERY IMPORTANT TRIP TO DO.......WHAT AGAIN???? ![]() "Do we expect to come back with any surprises or changes? No we don’t,” Pratt said. “It’s just one of those things you feel like you have to do to be careful and prudent, and it wouldn’t be wise to go forward without that".......OH, IT WOULDN'T BE PRUDENT TO EXPECT SURPRISES OR CHANGES....THINGS YOU HAVE TO DO TO BE CAREFUL...SO SAYS PRATT......BUT IT'S PRUDENT TO SPEND $450,000 OF THE TAXPAYER'S MONEY ON 4 THATCHER BUILDINGS "IN THE HOPE ON A HANDSHAKE" THAT CS WILL COME????? SEEMS TO ME PRATT AND THE GANG ARE PICKING WHAT THEY DEEM TO BE PRUDENT IN THIS CLUSTER. SURE DIDN'T SEEM LIKE THE CITY WAS "CAREFUL" WITH OUR FRIKKIN MONEY WHEN THEY PURCHASED THESE BUILDINGS, DID IT PRATT? Although final plans are still being made, the trip is estimated to cost the city about $900 to cover expenses such as flights, hotel accommodations and a rental car. According to City Manager Judy Gilleland, the money will likely come from the city’s downtown improvement fund. It’s worth the investment, she said. “I can’t imagine being involved in a multimillion-dollar deal that could potentially affect an entire downtown area and community without physically visiting locations and verifying the work and getting tips from cities who have experienced these sorts of projects,” she said OH NOW SHE WANTS TO VERIFY THE WORK.....AFTER THE CHANCE HAS BEEN TAKEN AND THE DICE HAS BEEN ROLLED AND THE WHOLE DEAL STARTED WITH A HANDSHAKE..... A LITTLE LATE IN THE GAME FOR BEING THOROUGH ISN'T IT GILLELAND? Mulligan and Pratt both said they were willing to dip into their own pockets to help cover costs. “I’m looking to see what I can afford to pay for out of my pocket so the burden isn’t completely on the city,” Mulligan said. “This is something you can’t get over the phone or in an email exchange.” GEE, HOW BIG OF YOU LAWRENCE TO SAY THAT BUT WHAT ABOUT THE LAWYER? IS HE PAYING ANYTHING OUT OF POCKET? |
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John Beagle ![]() MUSA Official ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 23 2007 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1855 |
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Ok let me get this straight, we have a done deal and the mayor is flying out to see if some place in Mass is working out ok or not.
So if he is unhappy, he might want to nix the deal? right... |
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acclaro ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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What an exasperating, sad, incredibly ignorant waste of time. money, and meddling into the affairs of Cincinnati State and HEP.
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Vivian Moon ![]() MUSA Council ![]() Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Acclaro has made the right evaluation on this multi-million dollar deal. |
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ground swat ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Mar 31 2011 Status: Offline Points: 367 |
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Thank you Ms. Moon for starting a new thread. It's a bit catch 22 in how I mean that!!! It needs to be discussed but how much MORE money are WE going to spend on this hope?
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Vivian Moon ![]() MUSA Council ![]() Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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City Manager’s Weekly Briefing
Winterization/mothballing work is proceeding on the Manchester Inn, How much money did we make on the Manchester Garage Sale?
When will they be starting the work on the CG&E building for What are they goinf to use the old Senior Citizens Building for? |
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ground swat ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Mar 31 2011 Status: Offline Points: 367 |
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Per down line city employee- Ain't going to happin for awhile!! Yes this second hand invo. but I'm still not buyin it either.
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VietVet ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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More evidence of "tunnel vision focus" by this town's leaders. Here, we have Pratt and Mulligan going to New Bedford for a day to meet with city participants of econ. dev. and to see the end result of what a small enrollment community college can do ala Cincy State. Looking at New Bedford's situation and the situation in Middletown may be different in scope and may not present the same situation for success.
While Pratt, Mulligan and the rest of the city leaders are so dead-fast focused on the downtown area, the Towne Mall sits in a much better location as a derelict ghost mall, totally ignored by the city leaders as to making any effort at all with the owners to rejuvenate the dam thing. The whole city leadership is mis-aligned, mis- focused and mistaken on it's attention to all facets of this town. To them, the downtown matters while the rest of the areas of town are ignored and are never considered for development. Even with the demise of the Towne Mall, there is still more activity and interest in the East End than in the downtown area. There is nothing to go downtown for unless you are an artzy person or want a cup of coffee at the PAC. No jobs created, no substance, nothing interesting beyond art, no hope.....just fru fru with an occasional Broad St. Bash thrown in for good measure. If they think they are going to create a replica of downtown Oxford with the college atmosphere coupled with some "cultural entertainment", they may be in for some disappointment. This isn't a cultural, academic, "upscale" town- never was one. It is a blue collar, beer drinking, Nascar watching, working town. Now, get some blue collar jobs in here. put the people back to work and quit screwing around with all this nonsense. They don't have a clue people. The pieces of the puzzle between the type of people in this town, the wants and needs of the people in this town and the vision the leaders have for this town will never fit together to form the picture. They all gotta go. Now. |
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Vivian Moon ![]() MUSA Council ![]() Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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City hopes to reap successes of
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Bill ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Vet what do you suggest be done at the Towne Mall? A big problem is there are multiple owners out there including a couple of the national chain tenants that are hard to work with. Also that CBL (sp?) group who was only going to renovate if city and Warren County threw MILLIONS in assistance. With the few hundred thousand the city has had to work with, what could the city throw at them to get anything done out there?
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acclaro ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Living in Middletown is akin to one whom goes through the stages of cancer, Denial, Anger, Optimism- Going to Beat this Thing, and Finally....Acceptance---nothing can be done, why bother. I am at that stage as most should also be with what has occurred since the mid 1980's.
Well, with the new coffee shop, maybe Seattle's Best, will that cannabolize Johnny Java's? Who cares, at least its closer for LM in the morning for the $1 Mm spent for a coffee shop near Main Street.
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VietVet ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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For starters, sit down with the current owners and revisit the situation, mentioning that the town can ill afford for a property in that location to sit for as long as it has in the under-utilized state of usage. I understand that the city can't tell the owners how to run the site, nor can tell them to ramp up the occupancy for tax/retail job opportunities, but they can tell there lack of interest in running the building to its fullest capacity how it is effecting the city and the activity in one of the most active areas of town. The city can also suggest other usages. A little late now, but would have made a nice location for the outlets that ended up down in Monroe. As has been suggested before on this forum, could be used as a campus for some tech school. A tech center. A common location for establishing a "restaurant of variety group". Certainly can be used for more than the wasted ghost mall that it is now, right? My reason for bringing up the Towne Mall and the futility of the situation there is because it certainly is a better location than anything the downtown offers, yet it is being ignored by the city and all of the effort is concentrated on the more difficult and "out of the way" downtown.....one that no one prefers to drive to as opposed to the Towne Mall area. For years, the city leadership had touted the East End mall area for growth and nothing west of Breile was worth the effort to re-develop. Now, every effort is located downtown.....an area that was written off for years. Why the change in attitude other than Mulligan, Kohler and others seem to be using the downtown effort to bolster and protect their personal properties. Totally mis-focused for the selfish reasons of a few down on S. Main St. JMO |
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SupportMiddletown ![]() MUSA Resident ![]() Joined: Nov 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 181 |
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Middletown officials don't appear to be turning their attention away from the East End (still a focus on developing around the hospital such as the recent city application for state job ready site funds for Northpointe), however they are indeed starting to look at ways to reinvigorate downtown. In doing this, Middletown is following a national trend. Cities that once ignored their downtowns are reinvesting in them and attracting a new generation that appreciates authentic places, density, historic buildings, urban spaces, etc, etc.
The East End/Towne Mall area will never compete with the Union Centres of the world. But Middletown has something that West Chester Township will never have--a historic urban core. I know it is difficult for some who grew up in generations where the automobile and suburbia were the latest thing to understand, but not everybody wants this anymore. There is a growing demographic that would be attracted to live in a place like Middletown long before a place like Monroe if downtown offered more amenities. Driving from the Walmart to your vinyl-clad home at the end of a cul-de-sac is a much different experience from stolling a few blocks from your 1920's bungalow to an active business district. There are people who want the suburbs and there are people who want the cities. Middletown is always going to struggle to be an attractive suburb in the context of southwest Ohio, but if the bones of downtown were strengthened, they could leverage the asset of being an older industrial community.
And, as far as Cincinnati State is concerned, I doubt the mall could have been acquired for as little as the buildings at Central and Main were purchased for.
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VietVet ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Support Middletown.....
......."however they are indeed starting to look at ways to reinvigorate downtown" Re-invigorating the downtown is always welcomed but alot of taxpayer money, and very little private money has been wasted trying to do this since the 70's with no success to date. The question is how much taxpayer money should be continually wasted to try to establish this area? The damage to the taxpayer's pocketbook has already been done. If the city continues on this "arts theme" with fru fru shops and a potential community college, how much participation do you think you will have from the general populace of Middletown? This is not an arts town. It is a blue-collar town on the opposite end of the scale from arts. Interest in arts only encompasses 10% of the community at best. Even if every store was occupied and those stores were centered around the current theme, there still wouldn't be any reason for most in the city to go downtown. Most don't care to participate in the arts and can get a cup of coffee from McDonald, rather than a coffee specialty shop at three times the price. Most people here are more inclined to visit the dollar menu at McDonalds than to spend seven bucks on a fru fru sandwich. The whole downtown is being set up for the few who would go the so-called "cultural route" and is totally ignoring the majority of residents. As to the Atrium area development. Yes, it has made slow incremental strides with the VA Clinic and Dayton YMCA, etc. But what about the west side of I-75? The Towne Mall, the largest entity in the area, should be the centerpiece with Bob Evans, the Drury, Crackerbarrel and others as support businesses. Instead, it stands practically dormant as a monument to a lack of effort to re-identify a need for the area and then apply that need to the mall. Example.....why couldn't the Towne Mall have contained the specialty shops instead of the Cincinnati Mall in Monroe before that was built? Why not re-invent the mall by inviting some unique restaurants in with the theme of having people go to a central location to find unique foods and dining? Might attract the money from Springboro, Mason, Centerville, Dayton and Cincy being so close to I-75. How about a specialty place ala Jungle Jims (before he built his new place by Eastgate Mall on Cincy's east side). The store in Fairfield is so isolated and hard to get to. Towne Mall is easy to get to with great traffic volume on I-75. The city should continually meet with the owners instead of being resigned to the mall remaining dormant. "And, as far as Cincinnati State is concerned, I doubt the mall could have been acquired for as little as the buildings at Central and Main were purchased for". If the Towne Mall property is so valuable and not within the affordability of the city leaders, why is it sitting vacant? Wouldn't the owners be using it to it's fullest potential if so valuable to them? Did the city approach the Mall owners about selling when they made the bids for the Thatcher buildings downtown. Of course they didn't. The small group of city leaders and friends want to develop the downtown (at taxpayer expense with no sayso on these purchases) and didn't consider using city taxpayer money to purchase buildings for CS anywhere else, including asking the Mall owners for a price. How do they know the Mall owners didn't want to unload it for a bargain. They sure as hell aren't planning to do anything with it except watch it deteriorate. |
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TonyB ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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Support,
You bring some valuable insight into this discussion. The premise of your argument is essentially sound; the problem lies in the actions of our city administrators and council. While trying to turn the downtown area into an "arts district", they ignore the two buildings that have the potential to realize that vision. I am referring to the Sorg Opera House and Studio Theater. Without providing something that will bring people downtown on a regular basis, an arts district of shops and coffee houses will not succeed. Live entertainment is the economic engine that can revitalize the downtown yet one building is slated for demolition and the other sits abandoned and is in danger of becoming another in the series of demolition projects. They can pay to buy buildings and mothball them, yet when a real opportunity presents itself to realize their vision, the city does nothing. Until some real leadership and a CLEAR vision of what they want the downtown arts district to encompass emerges, I'm afraid that the downtown will continue to be a "hit or miss" area for business and the arts that the city wants to encourage. |
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acclaro ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Support, your rationale is fatally flawed on many fronts. There is truly only a rather small area which is desireable, that being perhaps 50 homes on Main Street, of historic nature, that encompass everything from Victorian to Sears to Athenian colonial. Few professionals would have an interest in living downtown, unless they work for the city or are tethered within a short distance, as its at least a 15 minute drive off 75. Further, one faces crime and blight all around that area. Hence, to plow $ 1 Mm or > into an area that has attractiveness for so few, is illogical. One could not live in the area around the hospital which has some gorgeous homes, and simply walk downtown. Want coffee and New Yorker style converstation, Johnny Java's offers it on Central,
Throw in the 12 bars or more that line each side of Main, and downtown is not a terribly appealing area. For the east end, that has been the Atrium pulling in non profits, and a rather failed area called the Renaissance. I'd much prefer the historic area on the Carlise side of Franklin for its historic homes, than Main Street in Middletown. Larimer Square is one of my favorite areas in Colorado, in the historic area of Denver, but it simply won't fly in Middletown. You are catering to a very small population, and the ambience you describe is ideal for a Lexington, Va, where you have a great college town, but near Charlottesville or Richmond, or even Oxford, but the realism is the money spent is done so to find replacement buyers for the existing stock. Dillards sitting empty on east end of CBL property, if I were C State, and HEP, would be where I would be leasing property and putting in C State. I would not invest a penny into ownership of property, but lease. Work a deal with CBL, fill Dillards, close to highway, Greentree, since it will be Allied Health, and just lease. Middletown is not the type of town to buy property, but lease it. |
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Vivian Moon ![]() MUSA Council ![]() Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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TonyB… |
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TonyB ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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Vivian,
While the Studio Theater may not be in the Art's Core District, it's 2 blocks away!!! If you want foot traffic for your downtown area, a destination at the edge of the art's district would provide that. I've also heard about the damage to the interior but that didn't seem to stop the development of other older buildings. The Sorg Opera House would be very appealing if managed correctly. The point you make is that our current population couldn't support the business. A seating capacity of 700 is less than 2% of the population of Middletown. 700 times a 5 day a week schedule is 3500 patrons. The management trick would be to have a variety of offerings that would appeal to different demographics within the city. You can't expect the opera crowd to fill any theater 5 nights a week but a true variety of entertainment would appeal to many people on a rotating basis. That is the economic engine to drive the growth of restaurants and other arts related businesses. That is exactly what is missing downtown; a reason to go there!!! Live entertainment is an unique draw that can provide the impetus to go downtown and see the other arts. Is it just me, or does no one else see that. |
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Vivian Moon ![]() MUSA Council ![]() Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Tony
If live entertainment is needed downtown to draw crowds why do you need such a large space?
Why not several coffee houses or bars with a jazz band, classic guitar or rock n roll? Does Middletown now have any place with live enterment on the weekends? |
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viper771 ![]() MUSA Resident ![]() Joined: Mar 16 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 221 |
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Vivian, What you are saying about entertainment in the old downtown is exactly what they did to a town near my old hometown in California. In Fullerton, there was a community college and a Cal State not far away from the old Fullerton downtown. All the old businesses became antique stores, bars, coffee shops, reg businesses, etc.. There was even an old Fox movie house that was built in the 20s that was saved. Check it out here (http://www.foxfullerton.org/w/). This could happen to the old downtown if the area around it could be cleaned up.Outside investors will need to see the potential, which is a very important undertaking. But, as many have stated, there needs to be something to draw the people other than the arts. That would be great for the old Studio to be fixed up. There is an empty lot next door that could be used as parking, as well as other lots. Middletown will need to change somewhat from the blue collar steel town it once was in the past. The first thing to do would be getting rid of the ghetto trash. Our town is so infested that Middletown residents want to leave. Once the city has that under control, people may want to move here and make positive changes.
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TonyB ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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Vivian,
It's not essential to have a large space for entertainment; it just happens that those buildings are there!!! Clubs and coffee bars and the like would keep people downtown after shows at the theaters were over. And, no; Middletown does not have live entertainment venues other than the few bars in town that have bands on the weekends. None of those (as far as I know), are in the downtown. Plus, a large space means a bigger draw. that means more people in the downtown which increases the chances that some of them will patronize the businesses in the area either before or after the show. I think the people at MUM would say that they have an entertainment venue. They have a great artist series but it's not in an area where other businesses could profit from their patrons. That is the key; to develop an arts community, you need all the arts!!! Nothing draws a crowd like a live performance!!! |
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acclaro ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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I am uncertain if the focus is rebuilding downtown or the Sorg, so I will address both.
The Sorg motion picture show is not practical for significant costs associated with update and contamination, lead or asbestos I recall. Lets be real here folks. I can get over 1500 movies on demand with my DirectTV service and ROBU 2, with HuluPlus, Netflex, amazon, aol.com, and three stations that are the classics. You both know where the movie facility is, that shows maybe 6-8 movies, not one. No one would go downtown to see a movie, I can see it. At my home theater, no gas wasted, no time, and can also watch nothing but the latest two week classical, ballet, jazz, and opera performances around the world, including Vienna, Prague, etc. You are wasting time contemplatig an anchor around downtown, no one would bother. Go see PAC once a month, its audience has dwindled. In 30 minutes, I can be in downtown Cincinnati if I want true arts. Even for a 2 year program, staying power is a challenge. That will be the hurdle for Cincinnati State, but its impact economically will be minimal. It is an irony Greg Pratt left downtown to move to his Rosedale office, and is representing the city's interest in C State and downtown. Memo to Dr. Ownes and HEP: Contact CBL, lease for 5 years, the Dillards former space. As for arts TonyB, its all in my home theater, i080 p HD, and costs me less per month for >5,000 show availability, than the cost of the round trip gas to and from Cincinnati. You won't see the same type of people going to the Bash in the warm summer, than an art gathering. And, MUM has difficulty getting people to attend today its shows, and for the reason mentioned above. I have access to Yale Lectures, classic books read in narrative on Roku 2, and every Masterpeice show made. That's what you are missing, technology and its impact, not the integration of an art ensemble. But, the city didn't figure out C State either. Maybe CBL is paying a 10% finder's fee, and the C State deal with HEP can still be snagged to be placed in CBL where it belongs. |
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TonyB ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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acclaro,
I usually agree with you points on this blog; not this time, however. First, you have the Sorg and the Studio Theaters confused. Performances have been occurring in the Sorg up to the bankruptcy of the latest owners. It's the Studio that has the problem with it's interior. Second, I'm not talking about showing movies. As you correctly point out, you can get that type of entertainment at home. I'm talking about a form of entertainment you simply can't get at home (unless you consider the various goings-on under ones roof "entertainment"), and that is "live performance". The experience of being in an audience and witnessing truly interactive entertainment is not something you can have on your TV, stereo or any other technological device. That is what makes live entertainment unique and the vehicle for economic development downtown; it would provide a reason to come downtown. You wouldn't need to go to Cincinnati if we had live entertainment in town. Third: the idea that it is a "waste of time" to contemplate an anchor for downtown mystifies me. What has this blog been about but Cincy State being an "anchor" to build around in the downtown area. With all due respect, if we're not going to try to improve the city, why don't we just bulldoze the whole damn thing. If there's no reason to bother, there's no reason to even comment. What you are missing, imo, is that technology can only offer so much in the way of life experience. Some times, there is no substitute for seeing and hearing something in person. I don't care how good the movie or recording is, the live performance experience cannot be duplicated by technology. If this city and it's downtown development ever want to succeed, they must offer something local that will draw people not only from town but out-of-town as well. I don't see anyone coming up with an idea that will bring the number of people downtown necessary for an arts community to survive and businesses to flourish. Like I said before, if there is no reason to bother, then why try. |
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