Cincinnati State II
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: Economic Development
Forum Description: Local government efforts to develop the local Middletown area economy.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4168
Printed Date: Feb 22 2025 at 3:40pm
Topic: Cincinnati State II
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Subject: Cincinnati State II
Date Posted: Oct 13 2011 at 8:25am
Mayor to visit branch campuses in Massachusetts
Mayor, attorney will take a trip to community college sites.
Staff Writer MIDDLETOWN — Although city officials have been adamant about signing a deal to begin a Cincinnati State branch campus in Middletown, there is some due diligence to be done. Mayor Larry Mulligan and attorney Greg Pratt will fly to “We know Plans are moving forward to meet with school officials, each city’s mayor and local business leaders. The two also plan to walk around each city. “Do we expect to come back with any surprises or changes? No we don’t,” Pratt said. “It’s just one of those things you feel like you have to do to be careful and prudent, and it wouldn’t be wise to go forward without that.” Although final plans are still being made, the trip is estimated to cost the city about $900 to cover expenses such as flights, hotel accommodations and a rental car. According to City Manager Judy Gilleland, the money will likely come from the city’s downtown improvement fund. It’s worth the investment, she said. “I can’t imagine being involved in a multimillion-dollar deal that could potentially affect an entire downtown area and community without physically visiting locations and verifying the work and getting tips from cities who have experienced these sorts of projects,” she said. Mulligan and Pratt both said they were willing to dip into their own pockets to help cover costs. “I’m looking to see what I can afford to pay for out of my pocket so the burden isn’t completely on the city,” Mulligan said. “This is something you can’t get over the phone or in an email exchange.” |
Replies:
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Oct 13 2011 at 12:18pm
| "Due diligence" from the lips of anyone in council or city hall, really means, "boondoggle." Priceless. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Oct 13 2011 at 3:56pm
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"We know Cincinnati State has already been out there to do their due diligence,” said Pratt, who has served as a consultant to the city on the Cincinnati State project. “But we’re probably not in a place for Cincinnati State to do their due diligence for us. We have to do it ourselves".......
Definition of DUE DILIGENCE 1: the care that a reasonable person exercises to avoid harm to other persons or their property 2: research and analysis of a company or organization done in preparation for a business transaction (as a corporate merger or purchase of securities) Plans are moving forward to meet with school officials, each city’s mayor and local business leaders. The two also plan to walk around each city... WALK AROUND THE CITY HUH? IMPORTANT STUFF GOING ON HERE. IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO SEND TWO OF OUR MOST DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMEN ON A VERY IMPORTANT TRIP TO DO.......WHAT AGAIN???? 
"Do we expect to come back with any surprises or changes? No we don’t,” Pratt said. “It’s just one of those things you feel like you have to do to be careful and prudent, and it wouldn’t be wise to go forward without that".......OH, IT WOULDN'T BE PRUDENT TO EXPECT SURPRISES OR CHANGES....THINGS YOU HAVE TO DO TO BE CAREFUL...SO SAYS PRATT......BUT IT'S PRUDENT TO SPEND $450,000 OF THE TAXPAYER'S MONEY ON 4 THATCHER BUILDINGS "IN THE HOPE ON A HANDSHAKE" THAT CS WILL COME????? SEEMS TO ME PRATT AND THE GANG ARE PICKING WHAT THEY DEEM TO BE PRUDENT IN THIS CLUSTER. SURE DIDN'T SEEM LIKE THE CITY WAS "CAREFUL" WITH OUR FRIKKIN MONEY WHEN THEY PURCHASED THESE BUILDINGS, DID IT PRATT? Although final plans are still being made, the trip is estimated to cost the city about $900 to cover expenses such as flights, hotel accommodations and a rental car. According to City Manager Judy Gilleland, the money will likely come from the city’s downtown improvement fund. It’s worth the investment, she said. “I can’t imagine being involved in a multimillion-dollar deal that could potentially affect an entire downtown area and community without physically visiting locations and verifying the work and getting tips from cities who have experienced these sorts of projects,” she said OH NOW SHE WANTS TO VERIFY THE WORK.....AFTER THE CHANCE HAS BEEN TAKEN AND THE DICE HAS BEEN ROLLED AND THE WHOLE DEAL STARTED WITH A HANDSHAKE..... A LITTLE LATE IN THE GAME FOR BEING THOROUGH ISN'T IT GILLELAND? Mulligan and Pratt both said they were willing to dip into their own pockets to help cover costs. “I’m looking to see what I can afford to pay for out of my pocket so the burden isn’t completely on the city,” Mulligan said. “This is something you can’t get over the phone or in an email exchange.” GEE, HOW BIG OF YOU LAWRENCE TO SAY THAT BUT WHAT ABOUT THE LAWYER? IS HE PAYING ANYTHING OUT OF POCKET? |
Posted By: John Beagle
Date Posted: Oct 13 2011 at 4:52pm
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Ok let me get this straight, we have a done deal and the mayor is flying out to see if some place in Mass is working out ok or not.
So if he is unhappy, he might want to nix the deal? right... ------------- http://www.johnbeagle.com/" rel="nofollow - John Beagle Middletown USA News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Oct 13 2011 at 5:27pm
| What an exasperating, sad, incredibly ignorant waste of time. money, and meddling into the affairs of Cincinnati State and HEP. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Oct 13 2011 at 5:38pm
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Acclaro has made the right evaluation on this multi-million dollar deal. |
Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Oct 13 2011 at 10:05pm
| Thank you Ms. Moon for starting a new thread. It's a bit catch 22 in how I mean that!!! It needs to be discussed but how much MORE money are WE going to spend on this hope? |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Nov 19 2011 at 7:46am
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City Manager’s Weekly Briefing
Winterization/mothballing work is proceeding on the Manchester Inn, How much money did we make on the Manchester Garage Sale?
When will they be starting the work on the CG&E building for What are they goinf to use the old Senior Citizens Building for? |
Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Nov 19 2011 at 7:34pm
| Per down line city employee- Ain't going to happin for awhile!! Yes this second hand invo. but I'm still not buyin it either. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 21 2011 at 6:26am
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More evidence of "tunnel vision focus" by this town's leaders. Here, we have Pratt and Mulligan going to New Bedford for a day to meet with city participants of econ. dev. and to see the end result of what a small enrollment community college can do ala Cincy State. Looking at New Bedford's situation and the situation in Middletown may be different in scope and may not present the same situation for success.
While Pratt, Mulligan and the rest of the city leaders are so dead-fast focused on the downtown area, the Towne Mall sits in a much better location as a derelict ghost mall, totally ignored by the city leaders as to making any effort at all with the owners to rejuvenate the dam thing. The whole city leadership is mis-aligned, mis- focused and mistaken on it's attention to all facets of this town. To them, the downtown matters while the rest of the areas of town are ignored and are never considered for development. Even with the demise of the Towne Mall, there is still more activity and interest in the East End than in the downtown area. There is nothing to go downtown for unless you are an artzy person or want a cup of coffee at the PAC. No jobs created, no substance, nothing interesting beyond art, no hope.....just fru fru with an occasional Broad St. Bash thrown in for good measure. If they think they are going to create a replica of downtown Oxford with the college atmosphere coupled with some "cultural entertainment", they may be in for some disappointment. This isn't a cultural, academic, "upscale" town- never was one. It is a blue collar, beer drinking, Nascar watching, working town. Now, get some blue collar jobs in here. put the people back to work and quit screwing around with all this nonsense. They don't have a clue people. The pieces of the puzzle between the type of people in this town, the wants and needs of the people in this town and the vision the leaders have for this town will never fit together to form the picture. They all gotta go. Now. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Nov 21 2011 at 7:47am
City hopes to reap successes of
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Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Nov 21 2011 at 11:01am
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Vet what do you suggest be done at the Towne Mall? A big problem is there are multiple owners out there including a couple of the national chain tenants that are hard to work with. Also that CBL (sp?) group who was only going to renovate if city and Warren County threw MILLIONS in assistance. With the few hundred thousand the city has had to work with, what could the city throw at them to get anything done out there?
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 21 2011 at 11:37am
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Living in Middletown is akin to one whom goes through the stages of cancer, Denial, Anger, Optimism- Going to Beat this Thing, and Finally....Acceptance---nothing can be done, why bother. I am at that stage as most should also be with what has occurred since the mid 1980's. Well, with the new coffee shop, maybe Seattle's Best, will that cannabolize Johnny Java's? Who cares, at least its closer for LM in the morning for the $1 Mm spent for a coffee shop near Main Street.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 21 2011 at 11:48am
For starters, sit down with the current owners and revisit the situation, mentioning that the town can ill afford for a property in that location to sit for as long as it has in the under-utilized state of usage. I understand that the city can't tell the owners how to run the site, nor can tell them to ramp up the occupancy for tax/retail job opportunities, but they can tell there lack of interest in running the building to its fullest capacity how it is effecting the city and the activity in one of the most active areas of town. The city can also suggest other usages. A little late now, but would have made a nice location for the outlets that ended up down in Monroe. As has been suggested before on this forum, could be used as a campus for some tech school. A tech center. A common location for establishing a "restaurant of variety group". Certainly can be used for more than the wasted ghost mall that it is now, right? My reason for bringing up the Towne Mall and the futility of the situation there is because it certainly is a better location than anything the downtown offers, yet it is being ignored by the city and all of the effort is concentrated on the more difficult and "out of the way" downtown.....one that no one prefers to drive to as opposed to the Towne Mall area. For years, the city leadership had touted the East End mall area for growth and nothing west of Breile was worth the effort to re-develop. Now, every effort is located downtown.....an area that was written off for years. Why the change in attitude other than Mulligan, Kohler and others seem to be using the downtown effort to bolster and protect their personal properties. Totally mis-focused for the selfish reasons of a few down on S. Main St. JMO |
Bill wrote:Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Nov 22 2011 at 11:43pm
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Middletown officials don't appear to be turning their attention away from the East End (still a focus on developing around the hospital such as the recent city application for state job ready site funds for Northpointe), however they are indeed starting to look at ways to reinvigorate downtown. In doing this, Middletown is following a national trend. Cities that once ignored their downtowns are reinvesting in them and attracting a new generation that appreciates authentic places, density, historic buildings, urban spaces, etc, etc.
The East End/Towne Mall area will never compete with the Union Centres of the world. But Middletown has something that West Chester Township will never have--a historic urban core. I know it is difficult for some who grew up in generations where the automobile and suburbia were the latest thing to understand, but not everybody wants this anymore. There is a growing demographic that would be attracted to live in a place like Middletown long before a place like Monroe if downtown offered more amenities. Driving from the Walmart to your vinyl-clad home at the end of a cul-de-sac is a much different experience from stolling a few blocks from your 1920's bungalow to an active business district. There are people who want the suburbs and there are people who want the cities. Middletown is always going to struggle to be an attractive suburb in the context of southwest Ohio, but if the bones of downtown were strengthened, they could leverage the asset of being an older industrial community.
And, as far as Cincinnati State is concerned, I doubt the mall could have been acquired for as little as the buildings at Central and Main were purchased for.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 23 2011 at 6:49am
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Support Middletown.....
......."however they are indeed starting to look at ways to reinvigorate downtown" Re-invigorating the downtown is always welcomed but alot of taxpayer money, and very little private money has been wasted trying to do this since the 70's with no success to date. The question is how much taxpayer money should be continually wasted to try to establish this area? The damage to the taxpayer's pocketbook has already been done. If the city continues on this "arts theme" with fru fru shops and a potential community college, how much participation do you think you will have from the general populace of Middletown? This is not an arts town. It is a blue-collar town on the opposite end of the scale from arts. Interest in arts only encompasses 10% of the community at best. Even if every store was occupied and those stores were centered around the current theme, there still wouldn't be any reason for most in the city to go downtown. Most don't care to participate in the arts and can get a cup of coffee from McDonald, rather than a coffee specialty shop at three times the price. Most people here are more inclined to visit the dollar menu at McDonalds than to spend seven bucks on a fru fru sandwich. The whole downtown is being set up for the few who would go the so-called "cultural route" and is totally ignoring the majority of residents. As to the Atrium area development. Yes, it has made slow incremental strides with the VA Clinic and Dayton YMCA, etc. But what about the west side of I-75? The Towne Mall, the largest entity in the area, should be the centerpiece with Bob Evans, the Drury, Crackerbarrel and others as support businesses. Instead, it stands practically dormant as a monument to a lack of effort to re-identify a need for the area and then apply that need to the mall. Example.....why couldn't the Towne Mall have contained the specialty shops instead of the Cincinnati Mall in Monroe before that was built? Why not re-invent the mall by inviting some unique restaurants in with the theme of having people go to a central location to find unique foods and dining? Might attract the money from Springboro, Mason, Centerville, Dayton and Cincy being so close to I-75. How about a specialty place ala Jungle Jims (before he built his new place by Eastgate Mall on Cincy's east side). The store in Fairfield is so isolated and hard to get to. Towne Mall is easy to get to with great traffic volume on I-75. The city should continually meet with the owners instead of being resigned to the mall remaining dormant. "And, as far as Cincinnati State is concerned, I doubt the mall could have been acquired for as little as the buildings at Central and Main were purchased for". If the Towne Mall property is so valuable and not within the affordability of the city leaders, why is it sitting vacant? Wouldn't the owners be using it to it's fullest potential if so valuable to them? Did the city approach the Mall owners about selling when they made the bids for the Thatcher buildings downtown. Of course they didn't. The small group of city leaders and friends want to develop the downtown (at taxpayer expense with no sayso on these purchases) and didn't consider using city taxpayer money to purchase buildings for CS anywhere else, including asking the Mall owners for a price. How do they know the Mall owners didn't want to unload it for a bargain. They sure as hell aren't planning to do anything with it except watch it deteriorate. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Nov 23 2011 at 9:42am
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Support, You bring some valuable insight into this discussion. The premise of your argument is essentially sound; the problem lies in the actions of our city administrators and council. While trying to turn the downtown area into an "arts district", they ignore the two buildings that have the potential to realize that vision. I am referring to the Sorg Opera House and Studio Theater. Without providing something that will bring people downtown on a regular basis, an arts district of shops and coffee houses will not succeed. Live entertainment is the economic engine that can revitalize the downtown yet one building is slated for demolition and the other sits abandoned and is in danger of becoming another in the series of demolition projects. They can pay to buy buildings and mothball them, yet when a real opportunity presents itself to realize their vision, the city does nothing. Until some real leadership and a CLEAR vision of what they want the downtown arts district to encompass emerges, I'm afraid that the downtown will continue to be a "hit or miss" area for business and the arts that the city wants to encourage. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 23 2011 at 11:37am
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Support, your rationale is fatally flawed on many fronts. There is truly only a rather small area which is desireable, that being perhaps 50 homes on Main Street, of historic nature, that encompass everything from Victorian to Sears to Athenian colonial. Few professionals would have an interest in living downtown, unless they work for the city or are tethered within a short distance, as its at least a 15 minute drive off 75. Further, one faces crime and blight all around that area. Hence, to plow $ 1 Mm or > into an area that has attractiveness for so few, is illogical. One could not live in the area around the hospital which has some gorgeous homes, and simply walk downtown. Want coffee and New Yorker style converstation, Johnny Java's offers it on Central, Throw in the 12 bars or more that line each side of Main, and downtown is not a terribly appealing area. For the east end, that has been the Atrium pulling in non profits, and a rather failed area called the Renaissance. I'd much prefer the historic area on the Carlise side of Franklin for its historic homes, than Main Street in Middletown. Larimer Square is one of my favorite areas in Colorado, in the historic area of Denver, but it simply won't fly in Middletown. You are catering to a very small population, and the ambience you describe is ideal for a Lexington, Va, where you have a great college town, but near Charlottesville or Richmond, or even Oxford, but the realism is the money spent is done so to find replacement buyers for the existing stock. Dillards sitting empty on east end of CBL property, if I were C State, and HEP, would be where I would be leasing property and putting in C State. I would not invest a penny into ownership of property, but lease. Work a deal with CBL, fill Dillards, close to highway, Greentree, since it will be Allied Health, and just lease. Middletown is not the type of town to buy property, but lease it. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Nov 23 2011 at 4:59pm
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TonyB… |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Nov 23 2011 at 6:37pm
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Vivian, While the Studio Theater may not be in the Art's Core District, it's 2 blocks away!!! If you want foot traffic for your downtown area, a destination at the edge of the art's district would provide that. I've also heard about the damage to the interior but that didn't seem to stop the development of other older buildings. The Sorg Opera House would be very appealing if managed correctly. The point you make is that our current population couldn't support the business. A seating capacity of 700 is less than 2% of the population of Middletown. 700 times a 5 day a week schedule is 3500 patrons. The management trick would be to have a variety of offerings that would appeal to different demographics within the city. You can't expect the opera crowd to fill any theater 5 nights a week but a true variety of entertainment would appeal to many people on a rotating basis. That is the economic engine to drive the growth of restaurants and other arts related businesses. That is exactly what is missing downtown; a reason to go there!!! Live entertainment is an unique draw that can provide the impetus to go downtown and see the other arts. Is it just me, or does no one else see that. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Nov 23 2011 at 10:10pm
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Tony
If live entertainment is needed downtown to draw crowds why do you need such a large space?
Why not several coffee houses or bars with a jazz band, classic guitar or rock n roll? Does Middletown now have any place with live enterment on the weekends? |
Posted By: viper771
Date Posted: Nov 23 2011 at 10:37pm
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Vivian, What you are saying about entertainment in the old downtown is exactly what they did to a town near my old hometown in California. In Fullerton, there was a community college and a Cal State not far away from the old Fullerton downtown. All the old businesses became antique stores, bars, coffee shops, reg businesses, etc.. There was even an old Fox movie house that was built in the 20s that was saved. Check it out here ( http://www.foxfullerton.org/w/ - http://www.foxfullerton.org/w/ ). This could happen to the old downtown if the area around it could be cleaned up.Outside investors will need to see the potential, which is a very important undertaking. But, as many have stated, there needs to be something to draw the people other than the arts. That would be great for the old Studio to be fixed up. There is an empty lot next door that could be used as parking, as well as other lots. Middletown will need to change somewhat from the blue collar steel town it once was in the past. The first thing to do would be getting rid of the ghetto trash. Our town is so infested that Middletown residents want to leave. Once the city has that under control, people may want to move here and make positive changes.
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Nov 24 2011 at 7:12am
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Vivian, It's not essential to have a large space for entertainment; it just happens that those buildings are there!!! Clubs and coffee bars and the like would keep people downtown after shows at the theaters were over. And, no; Middletown does not have live entertainment venues other than the few bars in town that have bands on the weekends. None of those (as far as I know), are in the downtown. Plus, a large space means a bigger draw. that means more people in the downtown which increases the chances that some of them will patronize the businesses in the area either before or after the show. I think the people at MUM would say that they have an entertainment venue. They have a great artist series but it's not in an area where other businesses could profit from their patrons. That is the key; to develop an arts community, you need all the arts!!! Nothing draws a crowd like a live performance!!! |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 24 2011 at 10:03am
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I am uncertain if the focus is rebuilding downtown or the Sorg, so I will address both. The Sorg motion picture show is not practical for significant costs associated with update and contamination, lead or asbestos I recall. Lets be real here folks. I can get over 1500 movies on demand with my DirectTV service and ROBU 2, with HuluPlus, Netflex, amazon, aol.com, and three stations that are the classics. You both know where the movie facility is, that shows maybe 6-8 movies, not one. No one would go downtown to see a movie, I can see it. At my home theater, no gas wasted, no time, and can also watch nothing but the latest two week classical, ballet, jazz, and opera performances around the world, including Vienna, Prague, etc. You are wasting time contemplatig an anchor around downtown, no one would bother. Go see PAC once a month, its audience has dwindled. In 30 minutes, I can be in downtown Cincinnati if I want true arts. Even for a 2 year program, staying power is a challenge. That will be the hurdle for Cincinnati State, but its impact economically will be minimal. It is an irony Greg Pratt left downtown to move to his Rosedale office, and is representing the city's interest in C State and downtown. Memo to Dr. Ownes and HEP: Contact CBL, lease for 5 years, the Dillards former space. As for arts TonyB, its all in my home theater, i080 p HD, and costs me less per month for >5,000 show availability, than the cost of the round trip gas to and from Cincinnati. You won't see the same type of people going to the Bash in the warm summer, than an art gathering. And, MUM has difficulty getting people to attend today its shows, and for the reason mentioned above. I have access to Yale Lectures, classic books read in narrative on Roku 2, and every Masterpeice show made. That's what you are missing, technology and its impact, not the integration of an art ensemble. But, the city didn't figure out C State either. Maybe CBL is paying a 10% finder's fee, and the C State deal with HEP can still be snagged to be placed in CBL where it belongs. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Nov 24 2011 at 10:56am
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acclaro, I usually agree with you points on this blog; not this time, however. First, you have the Sorg and the Studio Theaters confused. Performances have been occurring in the Sorg up to the bankruptcy of the latest owners. It's the Studio that has the problem with it's interior. Second, I'm not talking about showing movies. As you correctly point out, you can get that type of entertainment at home. I'm talking about a form of entertainment you simply can't get at home (unless you consider the various goings-on under ones roof "entertainment"), and that is "live performance". The experience of being in an audience and witnessing truly interactive entertainment is not something you can have on your TV, stereo or any other technological device. That is what makes live entertainment unique and the vehicle for economic development downtown; it would provide a reason to come downtown. You wouldn't need to go to Cincinnati if we had live entertainment in town. Third: the idea that it is a "waste of time" to contemplate an anchor for downtown mystifies me. What has this blog been about but Cincy State being an "anchor" to build around in the downtown area. With all due respect, if we're not going to try to improve the city, why don't we just bulldoze the whole damn thing. If there's no reason to bother, there's no reason to even comment. What you are missing, imo, is that technology can only offer so much in the way of life experience. Some times, there is no substitute for seeing and hearing something in person. I don't care how good the movie or recording is, the live performance experience cannot be duplicated by technology. If this city and it's downtown development ever want to succeed, they must offer something local that will draw people not only from town but out-of-town as well. I don't see anyone coming up with an idea that will bring the number of people downtown necessary for an arts community to survive and businesses to flourish. Like I said before, if there is no reason to bother, then why try. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 24 2011 at 1:58pm
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TonyB, I have expressed my opinion on Cincinnati State, and I will guarantee that its affect, will be negligible on downtown and upon Middletown. As Shakespeare wrote, Much Ado About Nothing." At any point in time, I doubt 100 patrons come to hear the Middletown Symphony, which is funded to a large extent, through fund raising and the Middletown Foundation. I suspect on averaged the number of attendees to MUM's concert's, they would be rather low, under 200 on average. At $22.00 a ticket, I would just as soon watch a good bluegrass show on Tivo. The series at Sunset was quality, but few attended, and it led to very little ancillary revenue associated with it. Simply put, Middletown is not a destination for even Middletown residents. As for the Sorg Mansion, that was pitched for everything from weddings (compete now with Sr. Citizen Ctr), to proms, private parties, end other venues. Arguably, one could say the same bands that play downtown at the Bash, would work in the venue and drawl you reference. But in an inside venue, unless free and funded like the summer bash, I don't think it would work. And for those whom enjoy opera, big band, symphony, jazz, the market standard IMO is the MSO, and it is not a huge no which attend, that then flock to other areas in town. I have a Bose system in my Infiniti F35 and home theater. I can saw honestly, the sound quality is on par with a live performance without the hassle of time, parking, etc. I love the arts, but have no interest in seeing PAC, MSO, or anything in town. I drive to Cinci to see plays and the Nutcracker once a year. As for the Cinci State anchor, I won't say more. It has a purpose, with an association to Main Street. Leave it at that. Bulldoze downtown. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Nov 24 2011 at 11:36pm
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acclaro, I'm not sure that you understand my point about live performance. It's not the sound quality that's important, it's the fact that, as the CBS show used to say, YOU ARE THERE!!! I don't care how good the technology is, it cannot replace a live performance. I do understand that you have no interest in local arts. That is what the city planners are up against when it comes to creating an arts community, a lack of interest. How to create interest, imo, is where the theater buildings come into play. I'm not sure why we have such a confusion over the Sorg Opera House and the Studio Theater. I never mentioned the Sorg Mansion as a performance space or for any other purpose. Not that it couldn't be utilized in such a fashion; I'm not sure if the funeral home next door would like that, however. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 24 2011 at 11:54pm
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Gentlemen: There is only one thing (beyond providing the proper
infrastructure, i. e.: proper separate sewer systems) that GOVERNMENT can
possibly do to make downtown a commercial success, and that is the one thing
that our city government simply refuses to do: Get out of the way, and stay out
of the way!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 25 2011 at 10:27am
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TonyB, I fully understand your point, and you are missing mine. I am a patron of local arts, and do attend events. I am simply stating what I believe to be the obvious, that is, Middletown's art market for music and art is nominal, not a large segment of population. It is not a destination point for those outside Middletown, and cannot bring to the table, many locally. That is your point is it not---that with Sorg Mansion, the Studio, other venues, there can be a coordinated drawl? Middletown has a theater club (or did), MSO, the Bash in the summer, MUM series, and it just doesn't bring out the numbers. Fraze Paviallion is a destination, I attend many shows when it is opened during warm weather. You are attempting to make a point how downtown Middletown can be restored. My point is the arts is not it. It has had arts for decade after decade going back at least 50-60 years. The market is simply too small. Nothing wrong with that, many city's don't even have a town. I have said before, look at Mason, you have a pizza shop, a law office, and a bakery. That's it, in downtown. Mike Presta's point is correct, Keynesian economics has problems at the federal level as administrated. It is virtually unheard of, in municipal government, yet, that is where Middletown invests in $$$. There stimulus expenditures have failed time after time, to provide jobs and to stimulate revenue and benefit. C State is a prime example. PAC has had very little effect in Middletown, nor in tax receipts. The east end project has not been a success. The purchase of the buildings will have a float on capital depoloyed for nearly 3 years, before 300 students even attend a few classes. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Nov 25 2011 at 2:57pm
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acclaro, I fully understand your point, having been involved in the arts in Middletown at various times over the last 40 years. You are correct that the current market for music and arts in town is nominal. I believe that is due to the limited number and variety of offerings and the inconsistent nature of those offerings. I don't think a coordinated draw is the answer; a variety of offerings and the venues to offer them is. You have to appeal to different segments of the population and the surrounding communities to make any significant in-roads toward the stated goal of the city for downtown. My real point is that the current plan and what is being offered, is not sufficient for the vision being touted. I don't see how the downtown is suited for any other vehicle for restoration other than the arts. I agree that C State will take years, if ever, to break even with the capital the city has already spent. PAC is never going to have a true economic effect until there is some other reason to go downtown. I agree with Mr. Presta that government needs to get out of the way. This city has spent more money with less effect than anywhere I can think of. I just hate to see two historic buildings that could actually provide some momentum to downtown restoration sit idly by while we pour money into unprofitable ventures and underutilized buildings for the purpose of "mothballing" them. That makes no sense at all. Of course, neither did digging a hole by the river and expecting it to fill with water!!! |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 25 2011 at 4:57pm
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Govt.has never been able to create self-sustaining businesses--that is not their desire. They want DEPENDENCY--so that they always maintain control thru financial support. Look no further than Obama's creation of of a federal govt.dpependent voting block that is his only grasp to power. Business friendly? SMALL business friendly? Shovel ready?(only for your grave as a business or citizen) otherwise, I whine too much |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 25 2011 at 7:48pm
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sj, I have said it countless times; Middletown's leaders are followers. They follow AK Steel, the Atrium, and the Morman's downtown and their vision for a turnaround. TVM is only a vehicle to be used for the city and its "message." TonyB, I think we are on the same page. I love the arts, I simply state I think using the arts as a means to re-brand Middletown will not work. The city is too close to major venues than making art ever a destination. Yet, again, they place their bests on what's good for the Moormans. BV was a success as a niche, and nothing to do with being downtown. But by bringing in PAC and other arts, the concept was to create more buzz for BV. Its deperate and unsustainable, but the city always is behind the 8 ball. Having attended Keenland every April and October for 30 years and having a small horse farm in Danville, I can attest to the smell and beauty of Keeneland. Lexington indeed is a destination, Middletown not. Middletown is not a bedroom community and the market too small, to sustain anything of substace from an art perspective. This is the city's continued roblem: they tether to a steel industry, a hospital, and an art shop, and then think all they need to do is pull similar industry around those. It doesn't work. As for venues, get me in a crowd of 1,000 or greater, and I'd rather watch it on HDTV than in person. A small venue, a different story. We all are saying the same on downtown. Just do not remotely see EVER downtown EVER turning around. Its best days are 40 years ago, not ahead. Every time the discussion of downtown Middletown comes up, this song and venue at a concert with Dave Mathews comes to mind, the words are prophetic.
Did a 100 turn out for the parade BTW?
http://youtu.be/T3rXdeOvhNE - http://youtu.be/T3rXdeOvhNE
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Posted By: Middletown29
Date Posted: Nov 25 2011 at 8:01pm
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sj
Organize a parade and you can have it routed where ever you want. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 25 2011 at 8:05pm
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was thinking the same thing, m29 my apology
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 25 2011 at 10:37pm
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TonyB, if I may barge in on the conversation......
You state.... "You are correct that the current market for music and arts in town is nominal. I believe that is due to the limited number and variety of offerings and the inconsistent nature of those offerings" I would offer this opinion to that statement.... Because of the demographics of Middletown....IE Middletown consists of a majority of non-arts, non-higher educated people who like NASCAR rather than Formula I, beer rather than a refined wine or Dom P, blue jeans rather than business attire and country music, rap or rock rather than opera or the symphony. Having a variety of offerings or a venue to accomodate the arts and sophistication has nothing to do with attracting most of Middletown. Fitting the people into the arts is trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. Never happen, even if this town had the finest to offer in the arts. It is the non-cultured interest of the people that will never make this work. Hell, they could offer a hundred bucks to every resident in town to attend the PAC or anything the Moorman's had to offer and they would come.....at least long enough to grab the money and run to the nearest bar for a beer. No. IMO, you could redo the Studio and the Sorg and you would still have to rely on outside artzy interests to fill them. Not going to happen if you are relying on just Middletown people. To fill the downtown area, the city needs to have a theme centered around interests associated with the majority of the type of people we have here....high school graduates who like to watch NASCAR, the Bengals and drink beer while they work their industrial park jobs and live from paycheck to paycheck, occasionally stopping at McDonald's for a McRib or a box of White Castles. Find some activity that would attract those folks and you may have some traffic downtown. The arts will never be a big deal in this town. JMO |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Nov 26 2011 at 6:58am
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sj, Obama created a dependent voter bloc? His only power base? If that were true, how did he get elected the first time before any of that was in place? Pass me some of what you're smokin' bro!!! Vet, You're not barging in, I'm always interested in your opinion. I actually think you've hit on why both the Studio and Sorg are needed for this "arts community" to work (if it actually could and/or would). With two different venues, you can offer something for everyone. Arts are arts, I don't care if it's opera, country or rap. You could also target one venue for local acts and the other for more regional or national acts. I also agree that you'd have to draw from outside of Middletown to make this a success. You don't fit people into the arts, you offer a variety and let them pick and choose. Nothing appeals to everyone but almost everyone likes some form of art. the argument there would come down to "is this art?". acclaro, I agree with you about large crowd events. That's what would make the Studio and Sorg desirable venues. Big enough to be profitable and small enough to feel intimate. The only way they're going to make Middletown any kind of destination is to provide an alternative to driving to Cincinnati or Dayton for entertainment. Properly advertised, organized and funded, it could work. Of course, getting started would be where the outlay of cash would be required. It seems that this city would rather mothball and demolish rather than invest and promote. I don't see individual or group with enough interest and deep enough pockets to make this happen. So what will happen is what always seems to happen; a plan that never is thought through and after the initial push is quietly left to die. It really is too bad; because of the geographic location, an arts community with something that appeals to everyone could work. The problem is the half-assed approach never works. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 26 2011 at 7:51am
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Actually, the dependent voter bloc was already there, ready to be expanded and utilized. Obama did just that with his stimulus projects and rhetoric. The results are evident--plain to see--disaster Smokin' nuthin, guy. You??-Thinking that the Studio or Sorg is gonna bring back this city's culture. imo we don't have much culture at this time. Don't recall seeing you at the mum shows, symphony, high school productions etc for such a "live entertainment" lover Do it bro--make it happen!! I assume that you will be at the Orioles Club 2nite for the nostalgia music party Music as it was here during many's version of our "good ole days" culture Hopefully you will also be out supporting Small Business Saturday!
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Nov 26 2011 at 11:55am
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SJ, I haven't been to any shows in a while. Can't afford even the small admission fee. Plus, you probably won't see me in town since I don't live in the metropolis that is Middletown any longer. I'm also not thinking that it would "bring back" the culture in Middletown. My contention is, how can you have an "arts community" and ignore the performing arts? Especially when you have two buildings sitting idly by. Believe it, if I had the cash or won the lottery, I'd buy both buildings and make a go of it. Pipe dream, I know!!! |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 26 2011 at 11:02pm
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Finding quality events is a non issue in the city. The problem is a few think the events should lead to other events at the same night, dinner, etc. It rarely does, because the no of attendees is not large. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 27 2011 at 8:15am
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SPIDER.....
"I assume that you will be at the Orioles Club 2nite for the nostalgia music party Music as it was here during many's version of our "good ole days" culture" Did you go down to the Orioles Club last night to see the Intruders? Kent Goforth called me last week and told me all about it. Was going to go, having made arrangements for the boy to watch the wife and tape some of their music, but had issues with her care at the last minute. If you went, how did it go? Their practice sessions, prior to the Forest Hills 1965 Reunion event in August, is on You Tube. Paul Goodwin posted them. Got some music taped from that night also. They don't sound quite as good as they did back in high school at the Inferno in the basement of the old YMCA.....sadly now gone. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 27 2011 at 9:28am
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Went to the Orioles last night Vet
Good time, big crowd nice place
Ran into a lot of cool people, a lot of friendly talk
Band was fine--talked to Kent , Paul and numerous others
Family went to the parade
Enjoyed it very much--a good thing
forget my prior whining/jealousy(?)--I appreciate ANYONE doing the work behind organizing anything around here.
Sadly no local press for Small Business Saturday
Nothing from Chamber, Mayor, Council, Admin, ED, CVB
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Posted By: 409
Date Posted: Nov 27 2011 at 10:10am
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Also attended the parade and went to the Orioles yesterday
According to several the Intruders would like to have an outdoor concert next summer.
Logistics can be a problem as all don't live in the area. One member in Toledo area I believe.
Talked to the band members last night & at the '65 reunion.
Good time as SJ stated.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 27 2011 at 4:02pm
Would be nice to see them at the Bash perhaps if a schedule can be worked out. How about at the little-used AK Pavillion? Goforth and Regensburg live in Middletown/Brown's Run area respectively. Goodwin in West Chester/Hamilton. Weitzenkorn lives in PA at last count and Johnson lives in Tennessee (or did at one time). Don't know where Terry Harrison lives. Glad it went well with good attendence. Would love to have been there. |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Nov 27 2011 at 9:04pm
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Support, your rationale is fatally flawed on many fronts. There is truly only a rather small area which is desireable, that being perhaps 50 homes on Main Street, of historic nature, that encompass everything from Victorian to Sears to Athenian colonial. Few professionals would have an interest in living downtown, unless they work for the city or are tethered within a short distance, as its at least a 15 minute drive off 75. Further, one faces crime and blight all around that area. Hence, to plow $ 1 Mm or > into an area that has attractiveness for so few, is illogical. One could not live in the area around the hospital which has some gorgeous homes, and simply walk downtown. Want coffee and New Yorker style converstation, Johnny Java's offers it on Central,
Throw in the 12 bars or more that line each side of Main, and downtown is not a terribly appealing area. For the east end, that has been the Atrium pulling in non profits, and a rather failed area called the Renaissance. I'd much prefer the historic area on the Carlise side of Franklin for its historic homes, than Main Street in Middletown. Larimer Square is one of my favorite areas in Colorado, in the historic area of Denver, but it simply won't fly in Middletown. You are catering to a very small population, and the ambience you describe is ideal for a Lexington, Va, where you have a great college town, but near Charlottesville or Richmond, or even Oxford, but the realism is the money spent is done so to find replacement buyers for the existing stock. Dillards sitting empty on east end of CBL property, if I were C State, and HEP, would be where I would be leasing property and putting in C State. I would not invest a penny into ownership of property, but lease. Work a deal with CBL, fill Dillards, close to highway, Greentree, since it will be Allied Health, and just lease. Middletown is not the type of town to buy property, but lease it. What we have here is a difference of opinions. You cannot see another vision. Middletown is not going to be one of the posh towns you are talking about, but that doesn't mean that investment is going to generate nothing to speak about.
Go to Downtown Youngstown (a steel town that has seen harder times than Middletown) or Downtown Flint, Michigan (an auto town that has seen much harder times than Middletown) and look at what instutional uses (Youngstown State and UM Flint, respectively) are doing to their downtowns. Dead places are popping with students, young professionals, and even some of the crowd that used to hit the malls. Youngstown does not have an apartment for rent downtown (depite more than 50 high-end units coming on line within the past year and a half) and more than 60 student apartments are currently under construction. These are just a couple examples...Middletown can do something.
I see it so counterproductive that you would suggest and encourage Cincinnati State/HEP to NOT INVEST in your community.
Furthermore, locking in a tenant in the Dillard's Space may make the mall much harder to sell and/or redevelop. Do we want an old mall at 122 and 75 filled with a tech school or should we put the tech school downtown and let the space by the interstate be redeveloped by the private sector (which you always remind me only wants to be on the east side)?
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Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Nov 27 2011 at 9:16pm
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If the Towne Mall property is so valuable and not within the affordability of the city leaders, why is it sitting vacant? Did the city approach the Mall owners about selling when they made the bids for the Thatcher buildings downtown. Of course they didn't. The small group of city leaders and friends want to develop the downtown (at taxpayer expense with no sayso on these purchases) and didn't consider using city taxpayer money to purchase buildings for CS anywhere else, including asking the Mall owners for a price. How do they know the Mall owners didn't want to unload it for a bargain. They sure as hell aren't planning to do anything with it except watch it deteriorate.
Lets see...if you add up all the mall parcels on the Warren County Auditor's website, their combined value exceeds $13 million. Let's remember that this is the assessed value, not the market value (which would be higher). But even with that, let's estimate that the mall were only worth $10 million due to the current real estate climate/recession. $5 million would be a bargin. $2 million would be an incredible bargin.
You are not going to beat the downtown properties the city acquired. The land is too valuable, with or without the mall standing. Redevelopment costs, an unmotivated owner, and the remaining tenants and property owners (Elder Beerman owns their building, not sure on Sears) make the land underutilized. But even with a difficult market in Middletown and extensive competition up and down the I-75 corridor for retail and other commercial uses, dozens of acres directly on the interstate is going to be valuble real estate.
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Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Nov 27 2011 at 9:20pm
Do you have any case studies you can share with us about downtowns that were revitalized when government got out of the way?
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 28 2011 at 2:30am
Now, how about providing some examples of downtowns, WITHOUT DIRECT INTERSTATE ACCESS, that have thrived when city government has picked the businesses to be allowed, and has regulated against businesses that it has not wanted??? While you're at it, take a guess at why the I-75/SR-122 interchange is the VERY LAST interchange between Cincinnati and Dayton to develop, with some developers even waiting for brand new interchanges to be built rather than develop this one. (Clue: It's because City Hall insists on only allowing the kind of businesses that THEY want, rather than the ones that would be commercially successful. It's easy to do this when it's not your money at risk.) ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 28 2011 at 2:45am
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But fellas, ya see, it’s like this: City hall doesn’t have to concern itself with making a
profit. But they think that they know
what’s best for us, and how best to spend our money. The logic behind the fact
that their highly touted and very fashionable “first Fridays” never have and
never will out-draw the unseemly Broad Street Bashes is lost on them, so they
ignore it. (Did ya ever notice how our
mayor’s ever-present smile turns to a grimace every time he is forced to give
props to “The Bash”???) They have decided that it is best that their
downtown be an olde tyme-sie, arts-sie, crafts-sie, antiques-sie downtown, and
by God that’s what it is going to be whether it is sustainable or not…even if
it takes every last red cent the taxpayers (and their children and
grandchildren) ever make. And what do you think would happen if any individual (or group) would attempt to purchase any large venue downtown, with the purpose of opening an entertainment venue patterned after “The Bash” using private venture capital??? Well, I’ll tell ya: City Hall would throw up every possible roadblock, one after another…even getting the unconstitutional Historic Commission involved to withhold their ginned up “certificate of appropriateness” if necessary, in order to stop them. After all, having the unwashed masses downtown one Wednesday evening or two a month for a few months in the summer is one thing (after all, the upper-crust types are supposed to be off to the Hamptons or to the Cape during that time anyway, so just be certain that they clean up their mess, please), but actually having a going concern bring the common folk to the hallowed ground all the time, year around??? Why that just won’t do…it would have to be stopped before it could be started. (Isn't that basically what happened with the former "opera" house???) Just wait...when the "right" kind of business comes along for that "hallowed ground", city hall will find plenty of taxpayers' funds to bankroll the business. Maybe it will be necessary for "public health" or for "public safety" that we have an "opera company" or an "olde tyme playhouse"???)
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Nov 28 2011 at 9:20pm
Yes, thank you Mike, great example. We'll just all jump in our time machines and go back to 1940. In 1970, it was not the case that downtowns nationally began a decline, it was Middletown city government and their crazy mall schemes that started it all, right?
In all seriousness, however, I can think of many downtowns far from interstates that are healthy. Madison, IN. Layfayette, IN. Greenville, OH. Millersburg, OH. Elkins, WV.
Just because specific business types are targeted does not mean that others are prohibited. Please tell me about a business that was turned away when they wanted to open in Downtown Middletown? Be specific.
I would also highly doubt that if someone wanted to build an outlet mall, any type of office development (e.g. Union Centre or Austin Landing) or practically anything else on the East End, they would not be turned away. The only development I can ever remember being opposed at 122 and 75 was subsidized housing at Towne and Layfayette as proposed by Towne Properties of Cincinnati a few years back.
And please don't tell me about signs, landscape, or design regulations. Every community up and down 75 regulates these items, many times much more stringently than Middletown.
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Posted By: 409
Date Posted: Nov 28 2011 at 9:53pm
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http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1231&KW=&PID=5849#5849 - http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1231&KW=&PID=5849#5849
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 29 2011 at 5:06am
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Well, “SupportMiddletown”, how about opening up that
legendarily narrow mind of yours just a wee bit and just try to “get it”. No one mentioned 1940 (the beginning of the war years)
except YOU!!! Of course many downtowns
nationally began to see a decline at the start of the seventies. And what was our city hall’s genius
answer??? (Please TRY to follow
along. I’ll type real slowly.) Begin ratcheting up the regulations and
restrictions on businesses in our downtown.
How else do you encourage business??? (I was being sarcastic with that
last sentence…DUH!!!) They seemed to see
it as an opportunity to reshape “their” downtown the way “they” wanted it
instead of the way that it was commercially feasible. And the worse things got, the more they
regulated and restricted. You want a specific example of an enterprise turned away??? The Middletown Senior Citizens Center!!! (How many times do I have to type this before
you actually READ it???) How many other
businesses were “unofficially discouraged” to the point that they didn’t have
to be officially “turned down”??? Just
count the times that they revised the rules and regulations, so that they could
“officially" keep out a type of business that they had to “unofficially discourage”
up to that point??? Why do you think
they kept ratcheting up the restrictions and down on the regulations and zoning
when no one was coming downtown anyway???
Because the “wrong” kind of businesses were TRYING to come downtown!!! They shortstopped developers from Dayton who wanted to
develop a small industrial park because city hall felt the land had “added
value” as a freaking PARKING LOT!!!
A parking lot for WHAT??? (It
took EMERGENCY legislation, by the way.) I’m not gonna re-type all that stuff for you. You fancy yourself a history buff. Review the HISTORY!!! Read the Journal archives. Read the old council meeting minutes. Read all of the old rezoning and similar
regulations enacted on business downtown (actually to PREVENT businesses from
coming downtown) and then ask yourself “WHY did they need all of these new rules
and regulations and restrictions on businesses downtown when NO BUSINESSES WERE
COMING DOWNTOWN???” The answer is CLEAR!!!
THEY have been trying to select the businesses THEY want, and PREVENT
the businesses that the market was bringing!!!
It is that simple!!! There is NO
OTHER possible explanation for all of the new rules, regulations, and
restrictions on businesses that are not there!!! SHEESH…Get a clue!!! How many businesses did they run off unnecessarily just with
the last revamp??? New York Fashions,
Dohn’s, Roger’s, etc.? Some because they
weren’t the “right kind” of businesses to “suit the snoot” and others because
they had no idea how to perform construction while accommodating ongoing
operations. They didn’t even realize
that there were TWO elevators for the parking garage or that it was a common
practice to: A) relocate an elevator; or B) economically remove a column to
allow Broad Street to continue unimpeded to Manchester Avenue, and they refused
to take any advice on such matters. Go back and watch the tapes of some of the old council
meetings. (Do so with an adult present
to explain things to you.) You can’t
defend your position here. Neither
history nor facts nor logic are on your side. And don’t YOU tell Me “about signs, landscape, or
design regulations. Every community up and down 75 regulates these items, many
times much more stringently than Middletown.” !!! If that were truly the
case, answer this simple question: why can the City of Middletown advertise
Weatherwax Golf Course on billboards at the next exits up and down I-75, but we
cannot advertise it at our very own exit???
Riddle me THAT, Batman!!! And Lenny Robinson and the Doctors were stymied on the east end recently, as well as two developers from the Youngstown area, who were virtually extorted into trading away the property they owned by the city’s refusal to let them build anything. Open your EYES and EARS!!! Also notice that they have managed to "nudge" all of the social service organizations away from downtown. I thought that they wanted to draw MORE people downtown??? The social service organizations were drawing people downtown!!! Want to bet a shiny new dime that Hope House is next to be "nudged" (followed by some new "restrictions" on that type of business)??? As far as your “healthy” downtowns, point taken, if by “healthy” you mean “much like downtown Middletown, but with a bicycle shoppe, a candy shoppe, a coffee house, a book store and an ‘emporium’”. Then again, I guess that IS your (and city hall's) idea of a "healthy" downtown. (Throw in a "bistro" or two, for when someone else is picking up the tab.) ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 29 2011 at 5:07am
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By the way, SupportMiddletown, one of the Youngstown investors' name is Kevin Powell. Give him a call and ask him how Middletown's City Hall can keep someone from developing their property at the east end without "officially" stopping them, since I know that you won't believe me. Is that "specific" enough???
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Stanky
Date Posted: Nov 29 2011 at 2:27pm
| I think Kleingers & Assoc Engineering were sniffing around about the Swallen's building and tried to get some city help with renovations, to no avail. That is not to say the request was reasonable, but there have been entities interested in downtown but something, or someone, always seems to get in the way. |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Nov 29 2011 at 7:27pm
| Mike, all you present to me is heresay and assumptions. You are convinced that everyone and everything in Middletown City Hall is corrupt. Now I don't always agree with city officials and I don't always think things are done for the right reasons or in an appropriate manner, but the conspiracy that you and many fellow MUSA posters believe to be the case is just too wild for me to bite on. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 29 2011 at 9:32pm
Well, there you go again…demonstrating your infamous closed
mind after being confronted with the very information that you asked for. You wanted specifics.
I provided the specific case of the Middletown Area Senior Citizens, who
offered the city over $200,000 for the Swallen’s building. Their intent, as presented to city hall, was
to use the main floor for their senior activities and to remodel the upper
floor into apartments for senior citizens.
This would not only have brought hundreds of people downtown on a
regular basis, but also brought upstanding residents downtown, with a need for
pharmacy products, groceries, other sundries, visitors in the evenings and
weekends, and entertainment needs. In
short, the very things that City Hall claims to have wanted!!! Yet the denizens of Donham Plaza turned them
down. This is a
fact, not a conspiracy (or any other kind of) theory, nor is it hearsay, nor is it an assumption. Your declaring it as such is an assumption
on your part!!! It is easily
verifiable, if you were not so intellectually lazy. Lenny Robinson and the group of doctors is documented by the
recordings of official city meetings. In
fact, they have filed suit. Once again,
the only “assumption” is YOUR assuming that it is an
assumption due to your intellectual laziness or your fear of finding out that
you are wrong. It is easily
verifiable. I also gave you a third specific case and provided a
gentleman’s name in Youngstown. I guess
that I should have provided his phone number as well, as it appears that you
are either too lazy or too stupid to do the very same research that I would
have to do to find it. I gave you all
the information needed to go to the recorder’s website for the rest of the
information. In fact, as with the other
two specific items, all you really need do is ask one of your liberal friends
at city hall. They are very familiar
with these three cases. The very fact that you have now labeled these specific examples as “conspiracy theories” tells me that you have already asked your “buds” at city hall and found out that I am correct. Otherwise you would have spouted off to a greater degree. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 29 2011 at 9:48pm
|
By the way, SupportMiddletownGovernmentBlindly, the other
specific example I gave was the 6+ acre industrial park across from
Bicentennial Commons that the City bought via emergency legislation because it
had “added value” as a PARKING LOT!!! This was the very case that began my interest in Middletown’s
city government back in 1999!!! It was
the subject of my very first Letter-to-the-Editor of The Middletown Journal and brought me to the very first City Council
(City Commission at the time) meeting that I attended in person and at which I
spoke. This case is also
well-documented, if you weren’t either too lazy or too dishonest to look into
it. For you to label that case as
hearsay, assumption, or conspiracy theory is absolutely ludicrous!!! And while we are discussing CONSPIRACIES, let’s examine
which of us is posting under his REAL NAME and which of us is posting under the
anonymity of an ALIAS!!! Talk about conspiracy theories!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 30 2011 at 1:13am
|
Oooh, beware, SupportMiddletown!!! According to this excerpt from a December 13,
2009, story, The Middletown Journal must be part of the conspiracy against you: Lenny Robinson tells a little different story about his difficulties with the
city over his property in the C2 district near Interstate 75. He has been the subject of a recent lawsuit by the city of
Middletown regarding the signs still in place near the vacant Score car
dealership lot, which went out of business earlier this year. Robinson has been told to remove the
signs, which the city has deemed "abandoned," according to its
ordinances. But Robinson
maintains the signs are a key advertising tool for the property, for which he
hopes to find another tenant. "Why would the city take us to court over an important
advertising tool to help bring business to the city and increase
revenues?" he said. It's
just another piece of the ongoing puzzle of changes in the C2 district, which Robinson maintains will be detrimental
to the businesses already located there. Among the regulations outlined in
proposed ordinance changes are adding sidewalks and bike paths, and increasing
office and residential usage of the space. And while the old Score lot was once
a car dealership, new ordinances would not allow such a business to fill that
vacancy. "If the changes
make sense and are economically viable for our market, we would have seen this
already in the marketplace throughout the region," Robinson said. "(The ordinance changes) are probably better
suited for an urban downtown district ... but we are talking about a suburban
interstate district here, and I have not come across one business, one industry
that is demanding zoning of this nature." Judge James Rupert is in on the conspiracy against you,
too, since (just as I said) Robinson was involved in a law suit with the City and Judge Rupert ruled the
ordinance's definition was too vague in terms of when a sign becomes
dysfunctional, according to court documents. Oh,
and the Middletown Planning Commission is part of the conspiracy, too!!! Read the minutes of their November, 2010
meeting. The Planning Commission, the
other conspiracy nuts, and I have somehow ginned up the meeting minutes that
YOU can find and read for yourself to say that they shortstopped Mr. Robinson
and “Commerce Corner LLC” (the group
of doctors that I mentioned) from bringing in a business in the east end that
Kohler and friends didn’t like. And add the entire Middletown City Council and Betsy Parr to the list of co-conspirators, too, since you will find these same issues documented in council meeting minutes shortly after that Planning Commission meeting!!! So,
there you have it, SupportMiddletown!!!
For YOU to be correct that this is all “hearsay and assumptions…and a
conspiracy by me and my fellow MUSA posters”, then our fellow co-conspirators MUST
include: Mr. Lenny Robinson, The
Middletown Journal, Commerce Corner LLC (the doctors), the Middletown Planning
Commission, the Middletown City Council, Ms. Betsy Parr, and Judge James Rupert!!! Now just one question, SupportMiddletown: With co-conspirators
like THAT on my team, how in the
heck did I manage to lose a lousy Ward election??? ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Nov 30 2011 at 8:10pm
|
Perhaps I find too much delight in the agitation it appears that I am causing you.
The senior center was 5+ years ago. There is a new council and new administration. The statute of limitations is up. Same with the BiCo parking lot. Move on with your life.
I don't need to call someone for a specific example...a name for some unknown Youngstown resident is a comical example.
And I don't find sign regulations as conspiracy. They are just common sense.
|
Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Nov 30 2011 at 11:32pm
|
Here is another conspiracy theory, How does everyone like being treating like school kids with the laying off of firemen and police to help the budget,sounds like the same way the schools do when they want more money. Cut busing and sports instead of cutting the personnel fat.
I laugh when I watched old bought and paid for on the news last night explaining the reductions in public service but he fail to mention all the waste of money that he and his round table has pissed away on a art center that is opened one day a week, the bailing out of their buddy's dumpy hotel so they can mothball it,and I sure didn't hear him mention having the taxpayers pay for him to have olde timey lights on his and his cronies street. This doesn't include the stupid (hand shake deal ) with "That School" or the wasting of money on city personnel. I think I read where they were going to put another service levy on the ballot again next year. Everyone should know that even if it iscalled a service levy,it is not required to be use for that purpose by the State of Ohio which is the very reason we are at this point in the road.
|
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 01 2011 at 12:34am
|
“Just because specific business
types are targeted does not mean that others are prohibited. Please tell me
about a business that was turned away when they wanted to open in Downtown
Middletown? Be specific.”…SupportMiddletown,
28 Nov 2011 at 9:20pm. “The senior center was 5+ years
ago. There is a new council and new administration. The statute of limitations
is up. Same with the BiCo parking lot.”…SupportMiddletown, 30 Nov 2011 at
8:10pm. “Be specific.”…SupportMiddletown, 28 Nov 2011 at 9:20pm. “I don't need to call someone for a specific
example” … SupportMiddletown, 30 Nov 2011 at 8:10pm. “Every community up and down 75 regulates
these items, many times much more stringently than Middletown.”…SupportMiddletown,
28 Nov 2011 at 9:20pm. “If that were truly the case, answer this simple question: why can the City of Middletown advertise Weatherwax Golf Course on billboards at the next exits up and down I-75, but we cannot advertise it at our very own exit??? Riddle me THAT, Batman!!!”…Mike_Presta, 29 Nov 2011 at 5:06am. “the conspiracy that you and many fellow MUSA
posters believe to be the case is just too wild for me to bite on.” …SupportMiddletown,
29 Nov 2011 at 7:27pm. “I don't find sign regulations as conspiracy.
They are just common sense.”… SupportMiddletown,
30 Nov 2011 at 8:10pm. “Perhaps I find too much delight in the
agitation it appears that I am causing you.” … SupportMiddletown, 30 Nov 2011
at 8:10pm. “It
appears more likely that you find delight in making a fool of yourself!!!” …Mike_Presta, 01 Dec
2011 at 12:34am. “You are deluded if you think that you get me agitated. You simply provide me with an opportunity to amuse myself when I have nothing to do. The only “agitation” involved is in trying to decide how badly to embarrass you.”…Mike_Presta, 01 Dec 2011 at 12:34am.    ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 01 2011 at 6:26am
|
Mike...
Either SupportMidd is a gullible general city employee, who will defend the Gilleland disaster train no matter what they do, a blogger who has decided to sign up, evaluate who he/she can irritate the most, causing the greatest reaction, while having no interest in the city, the government or the decisions made by the inept leaders, or one of the city officials, who seeks amusement while attempting to throw a wrench in the gears of this forum. Whoever this person is, he/she is not worth debating, arguing nor doing combat with. No matter what you say, no matter what you present as evidence, this person will turn it around to make the MUSA forum members out to be the bad guys, while defending the city building/council people. Whether Support is serious or justs likes to agitate us, he/she is not deserving of a reply from you, nor any of us. Doubt if Support will go away. Likes to poke the bear too much. So do I, but in the opposite direction. Never know, Support might be Mort or Scorti. Might even be Gilleland or Kohler. They are all "fools for the city". (Que the song)  JMO
9:06AM- Mike, looks like we need to add Middletown29 to the list along with SupportMiddletown and label the folder- "Rose-colored viewpoints". For whatever reason, they can't seem to see how badly the people in charge are screwing up our hometown and are prone to overlooking their inabilities to make the correct, logical decisions concerning the welfare of this town. Sad. Don't understand how people can look at the same situation and arrive at the opposite ends of the scale on the evaluation of that situation. How can you possibly sanction what is going on in this town at this point in time? |
Posted By: Middletown29
Date Posted: Dec 01 2011 at 6:55am
|
Mike and Vet
You two need to take your meds. You see a bogey man everywhere you look. The City staff and elected officials are far from perfect no argument from me on that, however, you erase your credibility with the constant babble about conspiracy. |
Posted By: Richard Saunders
Date Posted: Dec 02 2011 at 4:14am
|
I was asked
by a coworker for a ride home from work in the wee hours of this morning. He lives across town from me, so after
dropping him off, I decided to take a geographically direct route to my domicile,
which took me through a section of Middletown through which I seldom have cause
to travel. That section is the so-called
“historic” Highlands district. I was
quite amazed to find that the streets in that “historic” district have brand
new, freshly laid, smooth asphalt pavement. Does anyone
else find it ironic that our so-called “historic” districts (Highlands, South
Main Street, and our “historic” downtown) either have or soon will have the
newest, modern paved streets in our city?
I thought that to be historically correct, these areas should have
rough, rutted dirt roads, or at best, bumpy cobblestone streets? Our three “historic”
districts mostly have “period” phony lighting made of the latest modern materials and
using modern electricity (paid for by the entire city) made to fake the look of
gas lights, smooth paved asphalt streets (the newest in our city), faked
facades (also made of the latest modern materials to imitate the look of days
gone by), and, smack dab in the middle of our “historic” downtown, we have an
art emporium with quite a modern look which holds a “certificate of
appropriateness” from the vaunted Historic Commission (the guardians of all things historically proper) which allows them to
accentuate their modern décor with a façade made of junk automobile hoods - -
and modern automobile hoods to boot! Yet somehow
the hypocrites such as SupportMiddletown and Middletown29 consistently accuse
others of “conspiracy!” What
sanctimonious fakirs! It boggles
the mind, does it not? |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 02 2011 at 6:17am
|
Richard....."Does anyone else find it ironic that our so-called “historic” districts (Highlands, South Main Street, and our “historic” downtown) either have or soon will have the newest, modern paved streets in our city?"
Nope, shouldn't surprise anyone who knows what the game is in town, Richard. The paved streets, the new lamp posts and lights.....all done for the friends of city hall. Jeff Michel is the leader in the Highlands area. He bought the sprawling ranch previously owned by one of the Finklemans on the corner. He came to town a few years ago, assessed where he wanted to be, made the connections, got on Clean Up Middletown, did some landscaping at the local parks and is now one of the MMF/city hall golden boys and inner circle members. Did a good job of fitting in with the city officials. His connection with the city (as well as others in the Highlands area) got the streets paved. Same with S. Main St. with one difference. The S. Main St. historical district has Mulligan, Kohler and other "dignitaries" drawing attention to their little world. It's "all in the family" as to who gets attention and who doesn't with the power cult downtown. The rest of us.......well.......we just sit on it and spin. As for Middletown29 and SupportMidd.....they're just on here to agitate and to disagree with most of MUSA's viewpoints. Probably directed to create interference by some upper level city scab and, like the good lapdogs they are, they are compliant.
|
Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Dec 02 2011 at 7:29am
| You folks need to do a little bit more fact finding on this one, grew up over in that hood and visit family. One half of one street was done this year and the ownership thing is not correct. A couple who used to live here by the name Pearce I believe bought Finklemans. |
Posted By: Middletown29
Date Posted: Dec 02 2011 at 9:57am
|
Vet, Mike and Richarcd just throw crap at the wall about whatever they want without real facts to support their muck.
It must be miserable to spend your life focused on any negative you can find on any issue you see. Come on guys (and Vivian) get serious. GET A LIFE! |
Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Dec 02 2011 at 11:07am
| No conspiracy theory - just facts in front of everyones face. If you don't think the buildings purchased downtown were nothing more then a Thatcher family bailout - you are an idiot. No one spends that kind of money when they do not have a signed deal with Cincy State. Downtown will never be what they want it to be (Lebanon, Miamisburg, Waynesville) - they would have to clean up the surrounding areas - Balitmore St, Charles - too much crime down there. However several of the individuals pushing for this happen to live inthe general area. They are just trying to raise their property values. |
Posted By: Neil Barille
Date Posted: Dec 02 2011 at 11:59am
|
Do you really think a few people behind this deal are really concerned with "bailing out" the Thatcher estate? Why would anyone put in the effort, time, hassle and $$ to try to intentionally benefit the estate? The reality is that the estate owned an asset that the city wanted. There was some negotiation to reduce the amount of the indebtedness on the buildings, I think.
The fact that the buildings were taken off the estate's hands, at a discounted price, may have been a nice result for the estate but it wasn't the goal from the city's standpoint.
Many of you have some great points about the way things can be done better, but like M29 said you throw so much crap at the wall, spew such bitterness, and make many unfounded accusations that you lose a lot of credibility.
|
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 02 2011 at 1:30pm
|
Neil, this discussion point is on a continuous, circle route. I made the point a year ago nearly, the rationale for downtown's revitalization, and the Main Street fire wall. The estate was worth as I recall $15 Mm. The city could have bought the property while the estate was being settled. Fine, you can drop the Conspiracy angle and simply admit, it was a decision fraught with poor business judgment by the city, and extremely poor timing. To my knowledge, all buildings sit, HEP has not made one acquisition, and I have not read one class Cincinnati State is planning on opening for the fall of 2012 to date---have you? Jeff Michel was the advocate who did the city's bidding to do way with the ward system. Forget about the Conspiracy theory again. Lets just call it a very unique coincidence, a relatively unknown individual, steps up to the plate, and gets the ward system voted on, and then asphalt shows up in Highlands. Its not on my street, and the homes in my neighborhood have a higher valuation than any property in the Highlands area. Okay, lets call it a trade, rather than a conspiracy. Get the wards done away, we'll take care of the street. Give us the Manchester so it isn't on the front page of the Cincinnati Enquirer being bull-dozed, and we'll take it off your hands estate, including taxes, legal matters, etc. Or maybe Neil you know something many don't, that Doug McNeil and the Atrium paid to have new asphalt put down in Highlands for lowering the property values after the hospital moved. I can emphatically assure you as fact, Roger Reynolds takes care of the Highlands area in property tax---the lowest in the area for size and sq ft, compared to any area in Middletown, almost 55% of tax value to actual market value on listings . Some call it a conspiracy (you Neil, M29, SM, others), most see it as fact--- its called favoritism, and a quid pro quo award. Just like Mr. Verdin got PAC, 0% interest, and the gala's paying for his variable utility bills. Nice favor IMO. Neil do you have any idea how many streets in Middletown have elected to be paved using the city's generous amortization funding plan? None to my knowledge. Also, on the Thatcher estate, from my recollection, if there are more than one benefactor in an estate, items have to be liquidated. How many years do you think Neil it would have taken the Thatcher estate to liquidate the Manchester and those buildings? 3-5 years? Yes, the city did the estate a huge "favor" by buying them and speeding up the settlement of the estate. The city wanted those buildings for what? To sit until Cincinnati State determines in 5 years, if they'll have more than 300 students? Some conspiracy theory on acquisition Neil. Neil, enjoy Asheville, NC. Why are you using the former Director's name whom almost burnt down, city hall? I remain mystified. Regarding your reference to crap on the wall, the crap is the city buying buildings, courting a two year community college, investing $1 Mm downtown or greater, to protect Main Street to to someday invite Forbes back to say. "see, we told you so, we weren't so bad after all." To state there is no cause and effect between downtown expenditures, Main Street, and city leadership and council members desiring to protect drastically declining property values in Middletown is not only naive, but disingenuous. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 02 2011 at 3:24pm
|
Anyone who honestly thinks that Council and Admin have any organized/strategic planning for the future of our entire community needs only to watch the Council meeting from 11/29/11.
As Councilmember Allen stated--I am out of here in a month. It's no skin off of my nose. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 02 2011 at 4:05pm
|
sj, good point. Familiarity breeds contempt. It is an odd coincidence how certain actions lead to certain outcomes, for certain people. |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Dec 02 2011 at 9:32pm
I second these thoughts. I am constantly overwhelmed by the breath of distrust that some on here have for every decision to come from the city.
|
Posted By: Richard Saunders
Date Posted: Dec 03 2011 at 4:25am
|
SupportMiddletown:
We are likewise constantly overwhelmed by your breath. It usually smells like B. S. Try some Scope
or Listerine. Ground Swat: I do
not mean to question your integrity, but the route that I took (from south to
north) was: Florence Street, to (right on) McGee Avenue, to (left on) McKnight
Drive, to Central Avenue. I assure you that
the full width of each of these streets has been newly paved (the line painting
had not even been finished as of Thursday evening) for every inch of that route
within the Highlands (so-called) “historic” district, and more. |
Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Dec 03 2011 at 5:50am
| You are correct- I apologize, driving that route many times a week I roll those three streets together. The section of Florence south of Sherman was done several years ago and has a terrible sink hole at the far south end by Grand. I just felt that it was a mis-representation since the district has several other streets. For those of us who use vehicles larger then a car to get around any repair to ANY street in this town is welcomed. I jumped in because I didn't qiute understand how this thread went from Cincy state to the Highlands. I had one of our streets repaved last year, we have a city employee living on the street I have several friends who work for the city who are decision makers did I get this work done as a favor? |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 03 2011 at 10:09am
|
SM, the city's decisions certainly do not bring about mistrust, they show incredible lack of depth in thought, reason, and practicality. I don't know any business person whom would not find it a horrible decision, to pay for property that may or not be used, and buying it several years prematurely. Furthermore, you have the former city manager, Bill Becker, arguably, the most outspoken critic of putting $$$ downtown, echoed by Dan Picard before he got on board with the whims of the city's desires. As sj stated, there is nothing about city hall, that is forward thinking and planned, all ad hoc. Arguably, if one were to do a traffic study, the area around the church, McGee, et al, ergo Highlands, is one of the least traveled areas in Middletown, yet got pavement at taxpayer expense. gs, only you would know the answer to your question and the reasoning your street was paved. Maybe you don't know it, and 60% voted on it?, |
Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Dec 03 2011 at 4:55pm
|
It needed it? |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 04 2011 at 7:59am
As do most of the streets in this town do, ground. There are streets in more dire need of paving than those in the Highlands and down on S. Main St. Ironic, these two areas are designated "historic areas" and get the attention 99% of the city doesn't get. Just friends of city hall getting to go first in line ahead of the rest of us taxpayers. Standard procedure for the special interest people in control these days. Barille, SupportMiddletown and Midd 29........another bullsh-- conspiracy topic for you to bitch about boys. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 04 2011 at 10:43am
|
Gentlemen The improvements in the Highland District are part of Mr Adkin’s 5 Year Plan that I have commented about several times before. The City is using CDBG Funds in areas that would not other wise qualify for this funding. Remember that Mr Adkin’s declared all of Here is the link from Aug 19, 2010 where we had the full discussion of the new 5 Year Plan http://middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3223&KW=HUD - As you will notice it just doesn't match the facts given earlier by Mr. Adkins about high crime and poverty areas. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 04 2011 at 11:07am
|
Considering the local economic malaise, it doesn't seem right for the S Main St and Highlands areas to have their streets done at city expense, while the rest of town has to petition and pay their own way.
Both above mentioned areas are higher income, and their roadways are hardly the worst conditions around. Plus--the Highlands is lightly travelled and hardly a major priority.
Look at the past Supthin St and N University debacles and the current boondoggles on Lefferson and in the Poinciana area between Rosedale and Central........
Don't care whose plan it may be. Mr.Adkins doesn't live here, has never lived here, and has probably never been on many of the sreets and areas in this city.
No conspiracies or cover-up--just good ole boy favoritism up front for those cronies who "want" and "expect" prioritized over those who truly "need". Good ole fashiond pay back back-scratching imo. Not to mention wasting more public $$.
No skin off of my nose--I don't care if they ever fix my poorly-maintained /poorly lit street.
The ruts and potholes and darkness slows down the traffic(which drives way to fast!)
|
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 04 2011 at 11:31am
|
Spiderjohn |
Posted By: Jack Black
Date Posted: Dec 04 2011 at 3:41pm
|
Ms. Moon, S.J. & Others, We've all lost track recalling how frequently Mr. Adkins informed us that the Feds weren't concerned with his bloated taxpayer-funded projects here. Remember the past two years of Mr. Adkins extravagant and wasteful expenditures involving millions in "schtimulus" dollars? I wonder what his neighbors in Mason think about him and his role in helping to escalate our national debt and how he is (NOT) revitalizing Middletown? |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 04 2011 at 5:55pm
|
Last year Ms Judy promised Gary Barge she would spend $200,000 to start the cleanup of the canal. The City spent $$$$ on downtown buildings that were not needed by Cincy State and to the best of my knowledge Mr Barge is still waiting for the cleanup of the canal… The City just keeps kicking these cans down the road. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 04 2011 at 10:10pm
|
Just a few quick words, since I am visiting a friend and using their computer. (My computer--new in July, crashed and replaced two weeks later, and the replacement repaired three weeks after that--crashed again Thursday night and is back in the hands of the Geek Squad.) $200,000 would come close to solving the canal problem, if the facts are as I suspect they are. (I requested some information to do a feasibility study--free of charge to the city--but never received it.) My preliminary estimate is about $300,000, plus about $5,000 of maintenance work every year, and about $50,000 of maintenance work every ten years. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 05 2011 at 4:01am
|
Mike
Why doesn't the City ever SOLVE the problems of the citizens?
The canal problem has been discussed for more than 8 years when do we see action?. |
Posted By: Richard Saunders
Date Posted: Dec 05 2011 at 4:15am
|
Mr. Ground Swat, You state: “I had one of our streets repaved last year, we have a city employee living on the street I have several friends who work for the city who are decision makers did I get this work done as a favor?” Please read your own post! You say that you “have a city employee living on the street.” So, no, I do not think that you got this work done as a favor. But what about the “city employee living on the street?” Can’t you see how, even though you may not be a “friend of city hall” (or FOC, as Mr. Presta refers to them), there always seems to be either a FOC, an elected official, or a high-ranking city employee involved in some way in all of these otherwise incoherent decisions? |
Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Dec 06 2011 at 7:35am
| Know one has to tell me the conditions of our streets, take a ride in a vehicle that is setup to handle 5-6 tons. As a matter of fact McKnight ,Mcgee and Florence were in horrible condition just like Ellen Dr. that just got done this summer. Got proof of paybacks or under the table deals then call them out on it otherwise it's all pot-smoke. The more you call them and bitch they will respond maybe not as fast as you like (Like for Ms. Pacman) but with enough involved you can get some attention. Want your street done? Start calling now and get them out to look and if your not happy with the results call the second floor and let her know how you feel, should it have to be this way? No but it is and you either adjust and be heard or I guess you just point fingers. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 06 2011 at 9:19am
|
ground swat--the proof is in the prioritization and actions. nothing more needs to be said. Streets prioritized and fixed fo'free b4 the bew policy............ Ornamental(and on-going expensive) street lighting........... Historic designation.......... open your eyes bro dem phone calls don't mean a thing--lip service but if it makes YOU feel better............ so much for history--what about the future?.
|
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 06 2011 at 11:21am
| The past city councils are different from current ones in one simple factor: they did not know what they were doing, and did nothing, or made poor decisions. This council and the one elected, does know what it is doing, and it is doing it for one reason- to protect property values for those whom lobby for it, and to protect the city agenda. |
Posted By: LMAO
Date Posted: Dec 06 2011 at 12:26pm
| I like to know one thing,Has anyone actually seen Cincy State sign on the dotted line? |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 08 2011 at 6:58am
 ):
Franklin businesses along I-75 allowed more signs FRANKLIN - City council adopted two ordinances following a pair of public hearings at its meeting Monday night. The first hearing allows the city to enact a new zoning overlay district that will permit additional signage to businesses along the Interstate 75 corridor. For buildings under 10,000 square feet, one additional monument sign or one additional wall sign can go on the properties or buildings facing I-75. Buildings 10,000 square or more will be permitted one additional wall sign and either one additional monument or pole sign to be placed on the properties or buildings facing I-75. A monument, or wall, sign will have to meet current unified development ordinance size regulations. Pole signs will be limited to no more than 10 feet higher than the highest point on the roof of the building. "We are trying to be business-friendly to help our industries along I-75 and let others know that Franklin is open for business," City Manager Sonny Lewis said, adding that the new overlay district effects approximately 25 to 35 businesses.------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 22 2011 at 11:19am
|
http://www.cityofmiddletown.org/docs/news/553.pdf -
City Manager’s Weekly Briefing
Great news! The Ohio Attorney General’s office has scheduled a meeting this week to review the |
Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Dec 22 2011 at 5:31pm
| Most ASS backwards deal of 2011!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At least in butler county. |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Dec 22 2011 at 9:08pm
Uh...you do notice that Franklin has sign regulations, correct? And this is a special overlay allowing additional signs only along the 75 corridor. Franklin regulates signs, yes sir.
|
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 22 2011 at 10:16pm
|
Uh…you would notice, if you drove up and down I-75, that
most communities do NOT regulate signs “much more stringently than Middletown”. (You can actually SEE the signs of most
businesses in these other communities from the interstate!!!) And…uh…you did notice that Franklin, in order “to be business-friendly” and “to help our industries along I-75 and let others know that
Franklin is open for business” is allowing more and even higher
signs??? HURRAH for Franklin!!! I wonder if Franklin City Manager Sonny Lewis
would consider a job change??? ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 5:57am
Contract close for
|
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 6:20am
|
Well gentlemen it seems that the “Downtown Dream” has been downsized again. Now we will not have the |
Posted By: Richard Saunders
Date Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 6:34am
|
The city has invested thousands of dollars into downtown when it purchased several buildings. Mulligan said, however, the building purchases were done so the city could “control the future destiny of some of the important areas of downtown.” But that is not what was presented to council by the city staff when the buildings were purchased, Mayor Mulligan. The council (and the citizens, but who cares about them, right?) were told that all of these buildings would be needed for Cincinnati State. There was no B. S. about "the future destiny of some important areas of downtown." That would've been (and still is) silly. Of course you didn't fool the regular readers of this Forum. They had you pegged from the start. They knew that your intentions for most of these white elephants had nothing to do with Cincinnati State! |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 6:55am
|
The city has invested thousands of dollars into downtown when it purchased several buildings. Mulligan said, however, the building purchases were done so the city could “control the future destiny of some of the important areas of downtown.”
Hmmm…I think you need to add a few more zeros to that number Mr Mulligan. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 8:52am
Yep, $450 thousand dollars or thereabouts, right Vivian? I like the vague, ambiguous, "encompassing all", general statement from Mulligan. "Control the future destiny of some of the important areas of downtown". And what would the preliminary plans be for the remaining buildings Lawrence the Third? The truth of the matter is, you nor any of the city leaders have a clue what you're going to do with the buildings CS won't use, do ya? Once again, as with property purchased in the past (and with the city saying they're getting out of the real estate business), we have real estate, purchased with our money, without our consent, that will sit and rot with no useful purpose. Why? More "public pacification" nonsense from Mulligan and company. Really is getting old Lawrence The Third. 
|
Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 11:36pm
| I know another word Mike that sounds like the (Third) . |