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VietVet View Drop Down
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Joined: May 15 2008
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Points: 7008 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 8:02pm
OK Marianne- I'll answer your questions as you have requested. Why the personal attacks? Because these people running the city have helped destroy what was once a very nice town. "HARMLESS comparisons often give me a chuckle .... it seems immature to me"- So all critics who use levity are immature to you? Who are you to judge the maturity level of the posters on this site? Do you think that you are operating on a higher level than us mere mortals? Do you consider yourself an elitist, because you demonstrate all the symptoms. Making these comments to the people in person? You bet I would. I would go out of my way to insult them in a more radical way than using this method. Hell, it might create SOME response from them other than sheer silence as seen at Council meetings and this fiasco called "Conversation with Council". I've been down the road at 60 and have been in a war. Do you honestly think that I am intimidated or care what these "ruiners of a town" think of me. They have no credibility to begin with so I am dealing with people who beg to be verbally assaulted. If these people would behave correctly and perform better , perhaps we wouldn't be using anger in dealing with the travesty they are creating or to alleviate frustration, levity, in attacking them. Bottom line, Marianne. People who deserve no respect, get no respect. Too harsh for you? Sometimes it's needed.
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Joined: Apr 20 2008
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Points: 3483 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by Marianne Marianne wrote:

Although admittedly, these are harmless comparisons and often give me a chuckle (more at the poster than the subject), it seems immature to me. 
I have to agree with Marianne on this one. Stop insulting the Three Stooges and Laurel and Hardy!!! 
 
Originally posted by Marianne Marianne wrote:

I also wonder whether the people who post these remarks would make these comments in person to the people about which they speak.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I would, and I have!!!
 
Originally posted by Marianne Marianne wrote:

I suppose this is one of the protections offered by posting on a BLOG: you can type things you would probably never say to someone's face. 
 See above!  Also, please note that I post over my own name, both first and LAST so that there will be no doubt who is posting.  But let me ask you this:  Exactly WHEN would you suggest that we speak to council members "to their face"????  They take great pains to make sure that the common man is prevented from doing so.  They have no good answers to many of the questions that many of us would ask, and several of them would be embarrassed if they had to debate some of the regulars of this board on an EVEN playing field!! 
 
I might also mention that in the past, council members would wait until AFTER citizens sit down from making their comments to council before responding (often erroneously) so that citizens cannot rebut their responses.  Isn't that nearly the same thing of which you are accusing us???
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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spiderjohn View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
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Joined: Jul 01 2007
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Points: 2749 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 8:29pm
Pretty harsh, Vet
Actually, these people hardly ruined this town.
The blame goes WAY back and is spread VERY wide.
These poor souls are simply the group not able to fix it all now.
It's not like the best timing for them either.
 
We have blamed enough already.
Time to move past the blame and fix it.
We will work at it  until we get it right.
This may not be the right group of people.
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Joined: Apr 20 2008
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Points: 3483 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by Marianne Marianne wrote:

And, to follow your logic, as my mom would say to me (whenever I'd use the argument with her that so-and-so was doing it, so why shouldn't I), if someone else jumps off a bridge, does that mean you should do it too?
Marianne:
For example:  When Ohio general laws are cited, and are clearly being violated, and council members respond: " 'All of the other cities do it that way.' so it must be okay for us to do it that way."
Is THAT the kind of logic of which you speak?
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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VietVet View Drop Down
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Points: 7008 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 10:23pm
Spider- It was meant to be harsh and said with genuine feeling of anger. I'll address your comment of "these people hardly ruined this town" by saying that they, along with Gilleland, have turned this town into a combination ghost town/ welfare town and have lowered the status and class of the citizenry/town itself. And yes, they have had help from previous administrations. These "poor souls" you refer to, are some of the most vindictive, secretive, elitist , exclusionary individuals imaginable. We have all discussed these issues at length on this site and in the Journal. As long as they occupy a Council seat, I see no reason to change my posture as to who gets the blame. "Not the best timing for them either"- I am having a hard time feeling sorry for their situation Spider. Fix it, you say? Only way to fix it is through their removal from participating on Council. Hopefully, that will happen in November. I agree, we need to work to get it right by voting off the newer people who turn out to be clones of current members over time. "May not be the right people"- Haven't they proven they are not the right people?
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lrisner View Drop Down
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Points: 330 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lrisner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 11:12pm
Spider is correct in that the blame goes deep and back many years, however just because you are not the one that shot the Victim in the head does not excuse you from ignoring the head injury and bandaging their ingrown toe nail instead. You still were/are incompetent in your assistance. 
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Impala SS View Drop Down
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Points: 136 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Impala SS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2009 at 3:55am
Irisner>     Waite just a minute, who are you calling incompetent? The people who blog on here are only telling the truth. I have no problem  telling any one of them what i have to say. In fact I have been told I talk to harsh to them, I just tell them in a way that will get there att. I believe in calling a spade a spade, if they cant take the heat get the HELL out of the kitchen. They knew what they were getting into when they ran for office. And also when they were sworn in they said they would work for the better of the city NOT destroy it. So could it be you are incompetent your self. And if you want my name just ask for it.
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Smokey Burgess View Drop Down
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Joined: Jun 04 2009
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Points: 172 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokey Burgess Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2009 at 5:21am
Impala  SS -
 
Middletown needs more people like you who speak from the heart and don't sugar-coat important matters in order to be politically correct!
 
Keep up the good work and God bless you!
 
Nelson Self
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Marianne View Drop Down
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Points: 165 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2009 at 8:18am
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

So all critics who use levity are immature to you? Who are you to judge the maturity level of the posters on this site? Do you think that you are operating on a higher level than us mere mortals? Do you consider yourself an elitist, because you demonstrate all the symptoms. Making these comments to the people in person? 


No, there are plenty of great critics who use levity.    H. L. Mencken was one.   Vladimir Nabokov, better known as an author, was another.

I didn't judge the maturity level of anyone on this site; I remarked on the action, not the person. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "higher level."

No, I don't.  I'm not sure what you mean by "demonstrate all the symptoms."

My comment regarding making these types of remarks in person was that they don't always seem to belong to the realm of civil discourse, and when I'm speaking with someone, I try to remain civil.  Given my Italian/Irish background, that can be difficult sometimes. 
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Marianne View Drop Down
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Points: 165 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2009 at 8:20am
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

Originally posted by Marianne Marianne wrote:

And, to follow your logic, as my mom would say to me (whenever I'd use the argument with her that so-and-so was doing it, so why shouldn't I), if someone else jumps off a bridge, does that mean you should do it too?
Marianne:
For example:  When Ohio general laws are cited, and are clearly being violated, and council members respond: " 'All of the other cities do it that way.' so it must be okay for us to do it that way."
Is THAT the kind of logic of which you speak?


I'm not sure how you get that from what I was saying, but I would say no.
I was referring to Steve's comment that seemed to essentially be "they make remarks about us, so we make remarks about them."
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lrisner View Drop Down
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Points: 330 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lrisner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2009 at 9:01am
Originally posted by Impala SS Impala SS wrote:

Irisner>     Waite just a minute, who are you calling incompetent? The people who blog on here are only telling the truth. I have no problem  telling any one of them what i have to say. In fact I have been told I talk to harsh to them, I just tell them in a way that will get there att. I believe in calling a spade a spade, if they cant take the heat get the HELL out of the kitchen. They knew what they were getting into when they ran for office. And also when they were sworn in they said they would work for the better of the city NOT destroy it. So could it be you are incompetent your self. And if you want my name just ask for it.



Calm down friend. I obviously did not state the point clearly.

I am/was trying to say that the incompetence of City Management and the damage they did, going back many years, did not excuse the current City Government from blame if they followed the same path of demise that has slowly destroyed this fine old City.
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spiderjohn View Drop Down
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Points: 2749 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2009 at 9:44am
Dr.C--I must disagree with you for singling me out on the topic of name-calling etc.
I don't believe that I have name-called any public officials by negative characterizations, and would appreciate you posting examples of me doing so.
 
Usually I get blasted for "flip-flopping and waffling" whenever I defend these officials as simply being human and not the villians as portrayed by many. I somewhat know these people(as well as most posting here), and realize their difficult position. They are part-time players trying to accomplish a more than full-time slate of issues. And the arrangemnent simply isn't working.
 
I personally deal with them in a positive tone, and realize that the only way to really move forward is by tearing down the self-imposed wall of separation. We must become more civil in our tone, comments and ?ing. "They" must become more open and available to promptly and honestly address citizens' valid concerns.
 
Otherwise, we NICELY but FIRMLY AND DECISIVELY remove them from their positions. I am not excited about the new slate of candidates , however I will vote and support the newcomers in order to change the face/attitude of our elected officials until we get more suitable representation.
 
I have become way too obsessed with this site, and need to walk away for a while.
Self-importance is addicting and contagious.
I have said enough about many things and about nothing.
 
In finality--any opinions or thoughts on the broadcast of the "Coversation" from Tuesday evening?
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Marianne View Drop Down
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Points: 165 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2009 at 10:27am
Originally posted by spiderjohn spiderjohn wrote:

Dr.C--I must disagree with you for singling me out on the topic of name-calling etc.
I don't believe that I have name-called any public officials by negative characterizations, and would appreciate you posting examples of me doing so.
 


Steve, not sure what you're referring to here. I was commenting on this earlier post by you :
"Considering the public shots taken towards the message board participants publicly at Council sessions and in print by exactly the same mentioned culprits, turnabout is fair play.
no harm--no foul". 

I mentioned you and a few others by name, because you had responded to my post.  If that's "singling you out for name-calling," well, I must have missed that.
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Smokey Burgess View Drop Down
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Points: 172 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokey Burgess Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2009 at 11:16am
Marianne -
 
When I moved here from Hot Springs, Arkansas in late 2006 to begin work as Community Development Administrator for the City of Middletown, I had no idea about the massive waste of HUD funds and mismanagement that took place before me.
 
I worked tirelessly to promote "true citizen participation" as evidenced by the significant involvement of real estate professionals, mortgage bankers and brokers, plus target area neighborhood residents.
 
Together, we took some bold steps to correct past abuses and to set in place reforms so that the City of Middletown would be a responsible steward of the taxpayers funds.
 
All of this came to a grinding halt about one year ago as certain senior City staff felt that it was not necessary for true citizen oversight and for government to be open and accountable.
 
So many things have been swept "under the rug" by these in charge.  Also, three members of the City Council are very well aware of these problems and remain silent.  This is also true of our local print media.
 
The past year has been a very difficult time for me professionally and financially.  However, I feel compelled to bring problems and issues to the light of day as best as I am able.
 
In reading this, I do hope that you will understand my frustration and disgust with our current system of governance.  There's much that the public needs to know and, those who failed to perform in their jobs need to be held accountable.
 
Nelson Self
 
P.S.  I now understand that an effort is underway for those "on the hot seat" to discredit me.  I am willing to face whatever trash that they may throw my way.
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Smokey Burgess View Drop Down
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Points: 172 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokey Burgess Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2009 at 5:24pm
Pacman -
 
As you requested, I went to the City of Middletown's website in order to view their proposed HUD Neighborhood Stabilization Progra (NSP) grant application.  Like two other active participants in MiddletownUSS, I also was unable to open the PDF file.
 
I did discover that the amount of the grant application that will be presented this coming Tuesday night will be in excess of $26 million.
 
If anyone can open the above-captioned NSP grant application file please send me a private message.  I would dearly love to see where the next batch of HUD "funny money" is going.
 
Nelson Self
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Impala SS View Drop Down
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Points: 136 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Impala SS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2009 at 6:05pm
Irisner >   I am sorry I got so upset, but Iam very ill and i hate the way they are tearing this city apart. We need people to stand together and say we have had enough of there wrong doing before it is to late.
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lrisner View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Impala SS Impala SS wrote:

Irisner >   I am sorry I got so upset, but Iam very ill and i hate the way they are tearing this city apart. We need people to stand together and say we have had enough of there wrong doing before it is to late.



Here, Here! Best of Luck!
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MadisonMom View Drop Down
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Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

OK Marianne- I'll answer your questions as you have requested. Why the personal attacks? Because these people running the city have helped destroy what was once a very nice town. "HARMLESS comparisons often give me a chuckle .... it seems immature to me"- So all critics who use levity are immature to you? Who are you to judge the maturity level of the posters on this site? Do you think that you are operating on a higher level than us mere mortals? Do you consider yourself an elitist, because you demonstrate all the symptoms. Making these comments to the people in person? You bet I would. I would go out of my way to insult them in a more radical way than using this method. Hell, it might create SOME response from them other than sheer silence as seen at Council meetings and this fiasco called "Conversation with Council". I've been down the road at 60 and have been in a war. Do you honestly think that I am intimidated or care what these "ruiners of a town" think of me. They have no credibility to begin with so I am dealing with people who beg to be verbally assaulted. If these people would behave correctly and perform better , perhaps we wouldn't be using anger in dealing with the travesty they are creating or to alleviate frustration, levity, in attacking them. Bottom line, Marianne. People who deserve no respect, get no respect. Too harsh for you? Sometimes it's needed.


THAT'S THE VIET VET I KNOW!!!!
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I have lived in this city all my life, my parents and their parents.  I am now 52 and must admit I firmly believe these members are not in this position for your interest or for the city.  Look at the members, they all have at some point in time personally benefited by the position.  There is usually a hidden agenda and there is in-fighting.  The exception to my statements is the Mayor and City Commissioner.  These two are really trying to serve the city, unfortunately, the membership on the council does not provide  the needed skills or competency to deliver this city from the current situation. 

 

It is hopeless unless we have council members that are willing to network with other successful communities, organizations that are outside Middletown.  They cannot be so proud (or know-it-all) that they don't seek out for help.  We need a 1-3-5 year strategy of substance.  Our members do spend time in the city, but the same of the same will not solve the problem.  There is a saying:  The definition of insanity is performing the same activity over & over and expecting a different outcome.

 

I don't mean replicating the same plan as in place today.  Extreme situations require a radical approach.  We must view this as a crisis and take decisive action.  The members have not fully demonstrated this attribute.  They continue looking for free money and governmental packages.  That will never be a long term solution, it is very shortsighted.

 

Since ASJ is quick to challenge others to research, when is the last time she connected to the internet to search opportunities herself.  What are other councils doing, who are the ones with great success.  When is the last time we invited and consulted with these individuals.  Show me a committee that was in the same situation that we are facing (and I don’t mean Las Vegas, or the like)  and successfully changed the outcome.  Are we talking to West Chester, Centerville, Springboro, even Franklin’s performance is better than ours.  This is very basic, yet, why do we hesitate to seek knowledge.  I am not trying to put down our council members, we need help and our council needs help.  They must 1st recognize this themselves.  It’s like we need to introduce them to “AA”.  

 

I don't mean to focus on ASJ, but her demeanor is fostering a repeat of 3 yrs ago.  Not just ASJ, but all council members should step back and change behavior.  Pursuing HUD funding is more of the same.  We need to look far beyond this approach.

 

 
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You are "RIGHT ON" with your observation. 

Just look who really showed up in the July 4th parade and look who did not.  There is an example of commitment.  Now, you may ask, where were the ones that did not ???

 

I know the one was mingling with the crowd near the starting point to secure her votes in the next election.  Again, it the personal agenda that just destroys any creditability.  Now we will hear all the excuses and that we are picking on her again, and, we will listen to her internalize her actions at the next meeting. 

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