sign ordinance issues?
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Printed Date: Nov 22 2024 at 8:47am
Topic: sign ordinance issues?
Posted By: spiderjohn
Subject: sign ordinance issues?
Date Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 10:33am
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lol Ms.G--you are spending too much time with Marty Koehler.
We debated the sign ordinance throroughly before it was approved.
The city was very selective in enforcing this ordinance, targeting small businesses while ignoring violations from the major retailers and the real estate sector.
I toured the city wirh Lauren Pack, who then wrote a MJ piece on the ordinance and enforcement breaches.
We have virtually no businesses to draw from outside our city for holiday shopping.
Local retail outlets are struggling like never before, and need every tool available to attract sales. Now is hardly the time to nitpick and harass any business entities. As always, Mr.Koeler seems to prefer empy storefronts with huge FOR SALE OR RENT signs in their windows over signage mentioning sale opportunities and bargains.
The signage issue is a very minor part of our community woes, and the general public has NEVER supported the restrictions(they were all Commission/admin originated). NOT ONE citizen or business owner spoke in favor of this ordinance at it's final reading.
When Ms.Mejias-Yancey left the city, enforcement ended completely. If this on/off inconsistency is to begin again, hopefully Mr.Koehler will have no involvement whatsoever.
You want to deal with blight and bad image?
Clean up the neighborhoods.
De-construct the brownfield areas that remain for decades.
Clean up the riverfront.
Make the Towne Mall functional and not an embarrassing eyesore.
Tear down Lone Star.
Concentrate on filling empty storefronts that consume every area of our city(and quit worrying about minor signage in existing businesses owned by citizens who pay personal and business taxes).
Hire a REAL Economic Development person this time and document their successes.
I have high hopes for our current city manager.
I don't like seeing her ideas for change shot down by Council, and I shudder at seeing her slowly shift over to the Dark Siders.
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Replies:
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 11:36am
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Spider this is the lets look like we are doing something when we really aren't because we can't afford to do anything. Every business in Middletown is in Survival Mode and we get this.
This morning I come to work and the same large sign from the windstorm, IN SEPTEMBER, is laying on the same sidewalk for the last going on 3 months. I'd pick it up except it's to big for my car.
The same guardrail at Elliott and Grand looks like a freight train ran into it for the last year.
Then while I am sitting at the light I get to see a gentleman walk out of the lovely outhouse at the entrance to Jacot Park zipping up his pants, this is not the first time I have watched this lovely act early in the morning.
And here we are worried about signs and busiensses that are just trying to survive.
Sometimes I just don't get it with Middletown.
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Posted By: arwendt
Date Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 11:48am
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"The signage issue is a very minor part of our community woes"
I agree. But in another sense I think it is a classic example of some very misguided policies from our "city hall". ------------- “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my http://wordsoffreedom.wordpress.com/ - Words of Freedom website. |
Posted By: Middletown News
Date Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 12:23pm
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Its really not a minor issue. Since it is enforced unevenly, some people get away with illegal signs, others don't.
The big losers in all this are the restaurants and retailers. Some signage should be allowed. For example, a grocery story ought to be able to put up Milk sales banners. ------------- Please like our http://www.facebook.com/middletownusa" rel="nofollow - Middletown USA Facebook Page |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 2:23pm
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Mr.Haller--I recieved a notice for doing exactly what you mention, except it was for Pepsi Cola and done professionally on Pepsi-created professional material. Yet Wal Mart and Meijers were permitted to do absolutely anything thay wanted.
I pointed this out, and Mr.Koehler didn't like that very much. Did city then evenly enforce the ordinance? Absolutely not.
As the ordinance reads:
I(or you or anyone) could fill your parking lot/yard/property with old broken refrigerators, autos and even junk. You could take a ragged piece of cardboard and write on it with crayon, and THAT WOULD BE LEGAL.
Advertising milk or soft drinks in a professional manner is NOT PERMITTED because the product is for sale INSIDE the building(a legal licensed business).
Then-Mayor Sonny Hill(RIP) thought this legislation was very anti-small business, and wondered aloud(at Commission during the public hearing) why everry business owner and citizen wasn't there to protest this uneven legislation.
Enforcement since has become a joke.
Why make legislation if you don't intend to enforce it?
It inly confuses the public, and a confused public is not a happy public.
People like rules when they are fair and evenly enforced.
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Posted By: Middletown News
Date Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 2:37pm
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You are living proof spiderjohn that this legislation in particular, has some unintended consequences. Hurting the smallest businesses, while helping larger ones.
I know we had to take down our 50' ComputerServiceNow.com banner. It virually stopped our walk-in business cold. ------------- Please like our http://www.facebook.com/middletownusa" rel="nofollow - Middletown USA Facebook Page |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 3:38pm
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With the messes going on in your neighborhood, and flagrant violations everywhere, I would put the banner back immediately(actually long ago), pending your landlord's approval.
We all need the business, and have to do what we have to do.
I still use small banners on my property.
Try it again--you would be warned and not cited.
And that might take a complaint to bring action.
No complaints--no action.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 9:12am
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actually Mr.Haller--restricting yours and my options as mentioned above was the specific intent of Mr.Koehler's thinking. He did not want those type of professional signs/banners used at all. He wanted expensive permanent signage instead, freezing out the small business options. The old "yellow Signs" are VERY helpful to draw business, but were ruled out.
As usual, the city's enforcement was very slanted against west end small businesses, while the major chains and east end entities were unchallenged. Then it deteriorated to no regulation at all.
During the public hearing regarding real estate signage exemptions, I requested the definition seperating real estate business from retail entities. Commission member Schiavone made a motion to table the hearing until such clarification could be given by the legal dept. Instead of providing such clarification and proceeding with the proper reading procedure, the legislation quietly returned next as an EMERGENCY, and was quickly passed without any further discussion.
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Posted By: John Beagle
Date Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 9:21am
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Sure the city does indeed look better with the clutter gone. But have we gone too far? Looks like their should be modifications to make it a more business friendly law. ------------- http://www.johnbeagle.com/" rel="nofollow - John Beagle Middletown USA News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio. |
Posted By: Middletown News
Date Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 9:40am
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Well, we have to follow the rules. So for now, no banners, less advertising, less business, less payroll tax revenue, less sales tax. Do we need change in Middletown too? Calling Obama ------------- Please like our http://www.facebook.com/middletownusa" rel="nofollow - Middletown USA Facebook Page |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 11:00am
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Schiavonne??? Banners???
Mr. Schiavonne, who actually voted FOR the sign ordinance, has been a flagrant violator of it ever since he opened his place behind White Castle!
He had at temporary "now open" sign (white, not yellow) for months inside the public right-of-way (probably over 400 feet from the store). He currently has a "temporary" banner and tacky lights out in front on his "patio dining area"!!! He was nearly finished with the remodeling before he bothered to get a building permit, and even then the "value" of the project was listed at around $18K, even though he had gotten a "loan" from the TAXPAYERS for nearly three times that amount!!!
PS: Also, they certainly did enforce the sign ordinance in the east end! They made a motel east of I-75 take down a banner advertising a special room rate. They made an east end car dealer remove the prices of the cars from the windshields of the cars (and this was while they were widening the road right in front of the dealership, and there was sand, gravel, concrete sewer pipe, and the like piled so high that you could barely even see the cars.)
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 5:27pm
Mike, I had to chuckle on the way home tonight....as I drive down Grand lo and behold I come upon several little signs on the side of the road advertising BBQ Junction.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 7:33pm
| One would think that our elected leaders would set a better example for the youth of Middletown than to be a blatant scofflaw. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Nov 27 2008 at 6:40am
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Spider
Denny Lumber Company has had numerous large supplier banners posted on the Midletown Cemetery fence for years. Isn't that the same thing? It's posted outside of their business and on City owned property.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 27 2008 at 6:51am
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Hey Ms.Moon
Denny Lumber is a well-respected quality local staple.
They run a clean operation and just do what is sensible.
Oury city admin is the group that is consistently inconsistent.
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Nov 27 2008 at 8:02am
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Spider
I'm with you on this issue.
I don't have a problem with the Denny signs. But like you said...Why some businesses and not others? I think their time would be better spent cleaning up the local neighborhoods. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 27 2008 at 8:08am
Personally I don't see any problem with any business that places a banner on their property as long as it is maintained and professionally done and not overly flamboyant. It is these little signs that dot the roadside that need to be done away with. When Public Works drives by one pick it up and toss it. I see them drive by them all day long. As Vivian said I can think of a hell of a lot more that needs to be done in the city than worrying about a banner hanging on the side of a building or a car dealer that advertises the price of his cars in the window, that is getting to the point of being ridicules. While we are talking about signs what about the ones I have seen for Light up Middletown.......
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 30 2008 at 10:38am
| Pacman- I view these "Barbeque Junction" signs and housing development signs in the same category as political signs. Isn't there a law in place for the timely removal of political signs in public right-of- ways after an election? If so, then why not business signs in a public right-of-way? Any laws for that? If so, isn't Davy in violation and shouldn't his worshipness be fined OR if allowed, shouldn't all businesses be allowed to place signs up and down Route 122, so that we can really gunk up the area? |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 30 2008 at 11:10am
| You are right Vet that is why I said when Public Works drives by one pick it up and toss it....as in the dump. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 01 2008 at 7:12am
| Article today saying Ms. Gilleland wants to step up sign enforcement.Businessess can't paint their windows more than 25% of the way with ads. Too many signs- as mentioned before, wonder if the inspection boys will make Schiavone/developers remove their signs along 122? Will be interesting to see if they're gone soon. |
Posted By: John Beagle
Date Posted: Dec 01 2008 at 11:45am
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Perhaps the city also ought to have a banner hotline, much like the http://middletownusa.com/view_news.asp?a=2983 - Pothole Hotline .
Full Statement from Ms. Gilleland: Sign Code Enforcement To the extent possible, with our limited inspection staff, we are stepping up sign code enforcement and attempting to take care of some of the blighting influences in our business community in terms of signage. While businesses need signs to attract customers, too many signs can have the opposite effect. In addition, some businesses paint their entire windows with signage, when codes permit only 25% of the window to be consumed with signage. A balance of signage in the community will have a positive impact. Source: http://www.middletownusa.com/view_news.asp?a=3885 - Weekly Update to City Council November 24, 2008 ------------- http://www.johnbeagle.com/" rel="nofollow - John Beagle Middletown USA News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 01 2008 at 1:38pm
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Sure--a new dept. to staff and fund, plus revenue from subsequent fines/penalties/fees.
Sign code enforcement
A new home for soon to be displaced city workers(health dept.employees?)
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Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Dec 01 2008 at 11:13pm
| Can I get on the new committee because I know they will need more input. Ha ha |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 5:53am
| Will the first place to be inspected be "Honest Dave's" place? Does he have a building permit for the outdoor dining area? I don't recall this variance going before the zoning board. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 9:22am
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Hey Mike--how about meeting me at the BBQ Junction for dinner?
Maybe a few others from here can join to support our local businesses!
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Posted By: John Beagle
Date Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 11:07am
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I think the Bar B Q Junction is a perfect example of what the city ought to let us business people do with little interference from the city.
Plus the food is fantastic. ------------- http://www.johnbeagle.com/" rel="nofollow - John Beagle Middletown USA News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio. |
Posted By: arwendt
Date Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 1:09pm
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I think the city should simply consider that any sign, no matter how shabby looking, on a living, breathing Middletown business is better than the most professional sign in the world over top of another dead and empty Middletown establishment.
As mentioned above this is "survival mode" for many Middletown businesses and not the time for this. ------------- “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my http://wordsoffreedom.wordpress.com/ - Words of Freedom website. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 4:16pm
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You folks are missing the point!!! "Honest Dave" was quick to pronounce signs "tacky" and legislate against them from his ivory tower seat on city council, but completely ignores the very ordinances that he helped to craft and pass.
Likewise, he ignores the rules on building permits, zoning, etc., when--as a councilman and so-called city leader--he should be setting an example of full compliance with such CITY regulations.
Then again, history shows that he always has acted as though the law only applies to OTHER people.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 4:22pm
LOL
 !!Surely you jest!! I would need to have you "taste" everything that was served to me!!!
 I would be pleased to break bread with you at any other local eatery, though, whether any of the others join us or not.
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spiderjohn wrote:Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Dec 03 2008 at 6:46am
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Sorry John but those little signs on the side of the road everywhere would just be a mess and a nusiance. You want to put up a sign or banner on your property hey I am all for it, but to litter the roadside sorry they need to go. Just drive up Grand and down Elliott Dr. to see the mess they create. BBQ, La Raza, Check n Go and a few others, To much.
And Mike we get the Point on BBQ. Last I saw the signs were still there.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 03 2008 at 7:04am
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Hey Mike--no way I volunteer to taste YOUR food.
Maybe pacman or Mr.B will do it.
Are you still a dedicated Fricker's guy?
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Posted By: arwendt
Date Posted: Dec 03 2008 at 10:31am
That's the problem with such an issue if you ask me. Everyone has thier own opinoin on what is a "mess" or a "nusiance". So I am not be surprised when the enforcement of such an ordance is viewed as selective at best.
------------- “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my http://wordsoffreedom.wordpress.com/ - Words of Freedom website. |
Posted By: Middletown News
Date Posted: Dec 04 2008 at 10:36am
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I have to agree with Pacman about those tacky little yellow signs. I saw one today on my way in from work. It was no where near the BBQJ.
Mr. Schiavone, tear down those signs... ------------- Please like our http://www.facebook.com/middletownusa" rel="nofollow - Middletown USA Facebook Page |
Posted By: arwendt
Date Posted: Dec 04 2008 at 10:41am
That's funny.
But you or Pacman or anyone else coming up with ways that limit how a business can promote itself will not create a single new job here or anywhere else, unless you want to count the pretend job of sign enforcement officer. ------------- “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my http://wordsoffreedom.wordpress.com/ - Words of Freedom website. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 04 2008 at 11:25am
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But Mr. Wenct...Schiavone was one of the ones who decried such signs, and helped to enact the city ordinance BANNING them!!!
I guess such signs were only "tacky" until HE decided to use them.
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Posted By: John Beagle
Date Posted: Dec 04 2008 at 1:10pm
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Ok, you guys are right. i wasn't talking about those tacky little yellow signs, I was talking about the banner on the outdoor cafe.
Also Mike I agree, Mr. Schiavone should follow the laws and regulations of Middletown. Especially since the sign law he is violating was put in place while he was mayor! ------------- http://www.johnbeagle.com/" rel="nofollow - John Beagle Middletown USA News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio. |
Posted By: arwendt
Date Posted: Dec 04 2008 at 5:48pm
Yeah I did not miss that. But to me it's not the important issue here. If anything, and if the little yellow signs do violate the ordinance, it's proof in my opinion that such attempts to restrict signage are a bad idea and impractical to enforce. But I have not read the ordinance nor do I know Mr. Schiavone or claim to be in any position to call him a hypocrite. So I just figured I would not go there. Like my dad told me a hundred times growing up: "son you have enough problems of your own without worrying about anyone else." It makes me laugh now but it was not funny at all at the time. ------------- “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my http://wordsoffreedom.wordpress.com/ - Words of Freedom website. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Dec 04 2008 at 8:04pm
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Mr. Wendt please provide you home address so that I might have some neon orange signs made up advertising my business and place them along the right of way in front of your house. And while your at it I am sure you won't mind convincing John to allow me to hang a Nice big professional banner from his building. I mean you are for allowing a business to do whatever they want to advertise right. Maybe I'll hang one off each side of the over pass on 122. Your "do as you want business owners" advertising campaign is impractical to say the least. As I stated earlier I have no problem with any business that wants to advertise on their property, but when they start littering the areas right of way and other peoples property with signs, I draw the line. Schiavone wants to put a cold air balloon in from of his place , go for it, but the little signs running up and down the streets are an eyesore and a nuisance.
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Posted By: arwendt
Date Posted: Dec 04 2008 at 8:57pm
Drawing countless rules that can not be enforced appears a lot more impractical to me.
So all I am saying is let's err on the side of allowing a business to advertise without undue fear of government reprisils by "sign nazis".
------------- “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my http://wordsoffreedom.wordpress.com/ - Words of Freedom website. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 04 2008 at 9:09pm
Spider:
I still stop at Fricker's once or twice a week for a bite to eat, and perhaps a cold beer or two.
However, it's not so much a "dedication" as it is the fact that there are very few places in Middletown where one can eat (inside rather than carry-out) after 11:00 PM. Also, at Fricker's, they keep the sounds down to a reasonable level. (The jukebox volume at most places would require hearing protection if they were industrial worksites.)
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Dec 05 2008 at 6:39am
What enforcement Public Works drives by, pull over, pull up the sign, toss it in the back of the truck, dispose of in dumpster, repeat as needed. They sure ain't fixing the roads or guardrails, of course it is now that time of the year when we have the fountains springing up in the middle of the roadways as we had on Manchester Rd. the other morning, damn water pipes.
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Posted By: arwendt
Date Posted: Dec 05 2008 at 9:47am
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If they want to drive around and pull up any signs let's start with the lazy bums who still have elections signs in their yard. I doubt the yellow signs will be there half as long as those things. Then of course why stop there? Let's grab that poor kid who has to dress up like the Statue of Liberry and toss him in the back of that Public Works truck too. Talk about an eye sore. An overweight Statue of Liberty standing on the corner by Frickers holding a sing and waving at cars, oh.. and smoking a cigarette - that has to be high on anyone's list of undesirable things to see.Next let's make sure we keep those Middletown hating snobs in Monroe from bringing their signs into town. I mean Riley Griffiths is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet and I wish his business the best but we can't play favorites.
And since you may remember I really can't stand gambling, I vote we ban all signs for the Fenwick Festival. Greek food never did a thing for me either so of course no signs for them in this crazy story...I could go on and on. : )
It's just a slippery slope and the roads and water pipes are much more deserving of our concern. Just my two cents.
------------- “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my http://wordsoffreedom.wordpress.com/ - Words of Freedom website. |
Posted By: John Beagle
Date Posted: Dec 05 2008 at 10:19am
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I agree, if you violate the law, you pay the consequence. Loss of the sign is about $5 to $10 each. A fair penalty for breaking the law.
------------- http://www.johnbeagle.com/" rel="nofollow - John Beagle Middletown USA News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Dec 05 2008 at 12:45pm
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Hey I have no problem with the Kid making a buck or two. When his day is done he cleans up and goes home. The signs stay for quite a while. If old BBJ wants to have a dancing Pig out front, hey Wendt need a part time job or maybe we get one of the....no I won't go there. Hahahahaha Arwendt you crack me up today. When in the hell was the last time you saw anyone from Middletown fixing Roads, last spring and then they had a hard time doing that, had to bring in backup. Yeah lets let them just stand around and wait for a new water pipe to leak, kind of like watching grass grow. I see them driving around every day of the week no reason to not pull up the signs. As far as the others, Fenwick etc. they usually police their own signs once it is over, just as Kmart does when they have a sale.
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Posted By: arwendt
Date Posted: Dec 05 2008 at 1:56pm
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I just drove past those K-Mart signs, and a few for some Middletown dating website and of course some Obama signs, and the BBQ Junction signs.
BUT the Cassanos Pizza I had for lunch was still pretty tasty and I hear OJ just got at least 15 years, so signs or not it's a good day. ------------- “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my http://wordsoffreedom.wordpress.com/ - Words of Freedom website. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Dec 05 2008 at 2:33pm
| I use to put one of those large cold air balloons in front of the Shopping Ctr at my last business every year at Xmas time. Every year I would get a Ticket on the First day, and I would ask, "how long do I have to get rid of it", he would say "10 days" and wink knowing that I had rented it for 10 days and it would be gone. |
Posted By: arwendt
Date Posted: Dec 05 2008 at 2:41pm
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LOL ------------- “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my http://wordsoffreedom.wordpress.com/ - Words of Freedom website. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 05 2008 at 4:49pm
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ya know--I cover this entire city virtually every day.
I honestly don't see much of an issue with signage.
Sure, there are the small masses of temp signs lining the streets occasionally in very poor taste. however they USUALLY don't last that long, and most of the businesses using them are on shaky ground.
BBQ Junction is a quality structure, operated by quality local people.
The food quality and service has been a struggle, though the place has top notch entertainment and potential to improve. It has a crappy parking lot, in a so-so center(soon to have a vacant Aldi in front), and is located a good distance from the roadway. If they use a few impulse signs out of code in an effort to stay afloat, I don't see the issue.
The REAL issue may be the city smokescreen towards employee re-classifications and new job description creations to give pay increases through re-classifying employees and shift them to new added areas.
Still--they will have to face the music when the funds are no longer there, like every other surrounding community and governmental area.
Do you really think we have serious signage issues, especially considering the brutal business climate today?
I just don't see it.
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Posted By: MadisonMom
Date Posted: Dec 09 2008 at 10:11pm
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I find this thread very interesting. I own a business downtown. We also do signs. Just became a member to this site.
I guess I really don't know what's going on around downtown and the east end. Even though we are involved with a couple of committees. And we have several clients around the same area. Just keep the information coming. Someone on this topic had mentioned, lots of talk and no action, so to speak. Yeah, that's exactly what I think, especially about the downtown area. Although I do have to say the Art Central Foundation has gotten a few business/building owners to clean up so to speak. Do you realize the quantity of traffic that is on Central Avenue from Eastern Bowling Lanes to across the St Rt 122 Bridge into Madison Township? How do we get these people to stop & do business in this area? There are businesses downtown that are thriving and some that are struggling. Can't quite explain it. We, as a Middletown Downtown Business, are trying to improve and support the downtown area. For a small business we can only do so much. We need to support each other. I could go on and on but since this is my first post, I will stop now. |
Posted By: arwendt
Date Posted: Dec 10 2008 at 11:02am
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MadisonMom, Something that I think is important to every business these days is taking advantage of the internet to increase their marketing reach. Though I do not know what business you are in, or how well that model may apply to your situation, we would be glad to post any marketing material or press release type of information about your company here on our website. If there is anything we can do to help please give us a call or an e-mail and we will see what we can do. Thanks again, Andy Wendt ------------- “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my http://wordsoffreedom.wordpress.com/ - Words of Freedom website. |