Santa Claus parade
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: Community Revitalization
Forum Description: Middletown Community Revitalization News
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5908
Printed Date: Nov 21 2024 at 7:42pm
Topic: Santa Claus parade
Posted By: middiemom
Subject: Santa Claus parade
Date Posted: Dec 02 2014 at 8:32pm
We went to the Santa Claus parade downtown this past Saturday and I must say to the organizers. Another job well done! It was nice to see all the people who showed up. Of course there were some less than desirables but it was easy for us to maintain a safe distance from them. The weather was nice and we even snuck some red wine in thermoses to keep warm  . It was nice to see all of the particiants in the parade grow from year to year. I also want to say kudos to Judy Gileand. It was nice to see you there still being involved in city functions despite all of the nay-sayers. Downtown is making a comeback! My girlfriends and I cannot wait to go to the new hot yoga classes at the old journal building (then sneak next door for a refreshment )! Again kudos!!!
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Replies:
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 03 2014 at 6:35am
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This will do no good as to persuading the rose-colored glasses folks to return to reality but here goes anyway from a "nay-sayers" point of view.... middiemom: "I also want to say kudos to Judy Gileand. It was nice to see you there still being involved in city functions despite all of the nay-sayers." middiemom, there is a mountain of evidence that has been documented, right here on this forum, that supports the facts that Judy Gilleland has done an incredible amount of damage to this city as city manager. Her relationship with the community, outside the inner sanctum referred to as "friends of city hall", is very poor. Her relation with her city building employees during her tenure was reported as very poor. She was a "my way or the highway" type of manager with a tyrant-like, dictatorial attitude with some nastiness thrown in. Hardly the way to handle people and get them to cooperate with you. I would imagine that her job performance would have been graded as very low if the community and her subordinates would have had a chance to evaluate her. middiemom: "Downtown is making a comeback!" With over a decade of attempts and millions spent on themes, gadgets and other PR disasters, along with a theme of arts that will never attract enough downtown to warrant a success statement, I believe the statement you made is a tad bit premature at best. If one were to drive downtown on any given day, one would immediately notice the empty stores, the lack of traffic indicating a lack of interest from most in this city. The outsiders brought in for the arts theme just aren't enough to present a "it's a busy downtown" picture as yet, therefore negating your response of a comeback. It won't "come back" with it's current arts theme. The arts are too limiting in interest and appeals to a small segment of society, especially in a blue-collar city like Middletown. The arts people just don't understand that you cannot change a town that has been, and will always be a working class, factory driven city and not an arts mecca as they would like to have. Again, wrong theme that will never fit nor be accepted in this town. I would be willing to bet that if they changed their focus and offered some entertainment/shopping that would appeal to the majority who live here, they would see a faster growth pattern. Your "new hot yoga classes in the old Journal building" may have very few in attendence as yoga and wine (interests from wanna be, egocentric upper crust, I've got a career, not a job, yuppies started long ago) have no interest with most who live here. In general, the people of this city are hard working middle/lower middle class blue-collar folks. Always have been. You can't bring, nor do they want, culture to the table. NASCAR, not horse racing. Beer, not wine. Burgers and fries, not a gourmet fru fru burger with a pickle slice and chips on the side for 15 bucks. The wages in this town just won't support high dollar arts nor specialty shops and food. One must understand the demographics of the city to offer what is of interest. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Dec 03 2014 at 10:31am
| Right on, V.V.!! |
Posted By: middiemom
Date Posted: Dec 03 2014 at 1:26pm
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"The wages in this town just won't support high dollar arts nor specialty shops and food." Vet, I'm sorry if you don't like the new Middletown and it's new establishments. Why do you care what my friends and I like to eat? We support these establishments. There are still Mc Donald's and KFC for those of you that don't like it. All the same old tired voices offering up nothing but negativism. Your solutions are what? More fast food chains? That's attractive when trying to lure new families into town
 ! Young people want things like what is happening in the new Middletown. People are trying. You all sit on this site and criticize people trying to make you so proud of your home town and what it can become. The new slogan says it all. There WAS a bright past but there IS A BRIGHTER FUTURE with or without you nattering naybobs of negativism. The future is young new families not grouchy old men. Even you can agree there is more going on downtown than ten years ago. I agree there should be focus on the east end by the highway as well. How about a collection of upper to high end restaurants and department stores by the highway? Might attract a lot of new people and young professionals. |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Dec 03 2014 at 2:57pm
| Sounds good. Opps, wait,Monroe is really getting THEIR ball rolling in that direction while Middletown sat on their hands when Auston Landing was being developed because Middletown Council couldn't see past their noses and the downtown.I sincerely hope that BRIGHTER FUTURE doesn't turn out to be an oncoming train. IMO |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 03 2014 at 3:14pm
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MiddletownMom, your post is quite amusing. Firstly, no educated young adult, or for that matter, and aged educated adult, is buying into the nonsense Middletown is coming back, downtown is ready to explode. The activity downtown is cloaked solely as a catalyst for growth and restoration because Larry Mulligan, Marty Kohler, Doug Bean, and others, live on Main Street and desperately attempt to prevent total financial valuation collapse of their property. Nothing more, nothing less. As they control the pocket strings, with help from the school system and others, a few dollars are spread over many establishments, each cannobalizing another's business, but not one entity is thriving. It is a waste of time and money to dream of young professionals coming to Middletown. The wrong people with the wrong acumen espouse the wonders of microbreweries, upscale restaurants, art, culture, bikes, and niche shopping to lure those young folks armed with J.D.'s, M.D.'s, MSc, et al. It isn't working and won't....for so many reasons already stated over the years, it is borish to be reptitive. As for pets with Santa, tearing down Sunset for a potential dog park, Middletown again puts its finger in the air, feels the wind blowing, and has a magical moment- young professionals will come running because of pets as they don't yet have children, the young yuppies driving their Lexus IS 300's, and BMW 3 xi's. Frankly, no one downtown gets it. As for marketing, the city and its surrounding posse of yes people, rose colored glasses framing uncreative minds, the continuation of throwing something out on the wall, hoping something will stick, continues. Look at the framing of the interstate exchange, where a big M adorns both north and south bound exits. One has to go up to Bob Evans to even comprehend its Middletown-----some marketing awareness! Whenever I read anything from someone espousing how downtown is comoing back, how young, educated adults are flocking to Middletown, I have countless discussions with others who have been in the city for generations, that all reach the same conclusion. And that is-----you don't know what you don't know. My first venture to downtown other than Stefano's was a week ago for a quick trip to the library. As I usually visit the West Chester library weekly, I was astonished how run down the library was, how poorly lit it was, and the composition of the people within, many homeless. There is a purpose for the cash being spent downtown, but attraction of young professionals is not it. And if it were, it would fail. . ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 03 2014 at 3:44pm
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middiemom: Why do you care what my friends and I like to eat? I DON'T middiemom: We support these establishments THAT'S FINE IF THOSE INTERESTED SUPPORT WHAT IS BEING OFFERED. MY POST SIMPLY MENTIONS THAT WHAT IS BEING OFFERED DOES NOT APPEAL TO THE MASSES IN TOWN. WRONG FORMAT FOR THE WRONG DEMOGRAPHICS. middiemom: There are still Mc Donald's and KFC for those of you that don't like it CORRECT BUT THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT WHAT IS OFFERED DOWNTOWN, NOT AROUND TOWN. WHILE YOU ARE ON THE SUBJECT OF MCD'S....YOU PUT A MCDONALDS DOWNTOWN AND IT WILL BE THE BUSIEST EATING PLACE DOWN THERE. WHY? BECAUSE IT OFFERS THE TYPE OF FOOD THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THIS CITY LIKE AT AN AFFORDABLE PRICE. IE...IT MATCHES THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE MAJORITY OF THE CITY POPULATION. middiemom: "Allthe same old tired voices offering up nothing but negativism" RE-PHRASE THAT. "ALL THE OLD TIRED VOICES FRUSTRATED AND FED UP WITH THE DIRECTION OF THE CITY, THE DESTRUCTION OF A ONCE PROUD, VIABLE. RESPECTABLE CITY REPLACED BY SLUM LORD SECTION 8 IMAGE DESTROYING POLICIES OF THE LAST 30 + YEARS. middiemom: "Your solutions are what?" 1. FIND OUT WHAT THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WANT FOR THEIR CITY 2. PLAN AROUND THOSE DESIRES AND START ATTRACTING THOSE TYPES OF BUSINESSES, EATERIES AND A JOB MARKET THAT TARGETS OPPORTUNITIES TO ADDRESS THOSE WANTS AND NEEDS TO HELP PEOPLE THRIVE HERE 3. COOPERATE AND BEND OVER BACKWARDS TO ASSIST ANY LEGITIMATE BUSINESS THAT WANTS TO LOCATE HERE. REMOVE THE BARRIERS THAT HAVE HINDERED GROWTH FOR NEW BUSINESSES 4. START A PR CAMPAIGN TO REPAIR THE DAMAGE DONE TO THE CITY AND IT'S IMAGE AND REPUTATION WITH THE SURROUNDING COMMUNITIES. START ACTING LIKE THERE IS A SEMBLENCE OF CLASS IN THIS TOWN INSTEAD OF BEING RECOGNIZED AS THE ATTRACTION MAGNET FOR ALL THE LOW LIFES TO FILTER INTO TOWN 5. LET THE ARTS PEOPLE DEVELOP THEIR OWN BUSINESSES AND STOP THE PRACTICE OF CITY INTERVENTION INTO WHAT SHOULD BE PRIVATE SECTOR DEVELOPMENT 6. GET NEW PEOPLE IN THE ECON DEVELOPMENT DEPT THAT ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THEY"RE DOING. WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS INEPTNESS DRAWING A PAYCHECK PRODUCING NO RESULTS WORTH MENTIONING....FOR YEARS NOW. 7. EITHER CHANGE DIRECTION IN THE CITY BUILDING OR GUT THE ENTIRE GROUP DOWN THERE AND START OVER WITH SOME COMPETENT PEOPLE WHO THINK LOGICALLY WITH THE INTENTION TO DO RIGHT BY THE PEOPLE OF THIS CITY 8. WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS, PICK A SUCCESSFUL COMMUNITY WITH LIKE DEMOGRAPHICS AND EMULATE THEIR SUCCESS BY DOING COPYCAT THINGS. THERE YOU HAVE IT middiemom. YOU ASKED FOR A PLAN. YOU GOT IT. middiemom: "Youngpeople want things like what is happening in the new Middletown" WHERE IS THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE THAT THIS IS TRUE? SPECULATION AT BEST ON YOUR PART. middiemon: Youall sit on this site and criticize people trying to make you so proud of your home town and what it can become NO, I KNOW WHAT IT WAS AND IT WAS A HELL OF A SIGHT BETTER THAN IT HAS BEEN THE LAST 30 YEARS. THE POWERS THAT BE HAVE SEEN FIT TO RUIN A ONCE PROUD ALL AMERICAN CITY AND HAVE TAKEN IT TO GHETTO STATUS AS WE SPEAK. I DOUBT YOU WERE AROUND IN THE 50'S AND 60'S WHEN THIS TOWN WAS A THRIVING HEALTHY COMMUNITY, RESPECTED BY IT'S NEIGHBORS. middiemom: The new slogan says it all. There WAS a bright past but there IS A BRIGHTER FUTURE with or without you nattering naybobs of negativism KOOL-AID DRINKING STATEMENT middiemom. DON'T BELIEVE THE HORSECRAP THEY'RE SHOVELING YOUR WAY. THEY HAVEN'T PRODUCED BUT A FRACTION OF THE PIPE DREAMS THEY HAVE BEEN SPEWING THE LAST THREE DECADES. THE SCHOOLS ARE IN SHAMBLES AS WELL AS THE COMMUNITY. THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE NO MATTER WHAT THE LEADERS SAY. IT IS WHAT IT IS. YOU ARE BELIEVING THE MAGICAL MYSTERY TOUR THEY ARE PRESENTING. middiemom: The future is young new families not grouchy old men "GROUCHY OLD MEN" HAVE PUT IN THEIR TIME AND PAID THEIR DUES. TRY RESPECTING THAT ASPECT OF THINGS MOM. THE ROAD HASN'T BEEN EASY. YOU'LL FIND THAT OUT AS YOU AGE. middiemom: Even you can agree there is more going on downtown than ten years ago NOT NECESSARILY TRUE. THE MAJORITY OF THE BUSINESSES ARE STILL UNOCCUPIED. THE ARTS COMMUNITY OCCUPIES A SMALL FRACTION OF THE BUILDINGS DOWNTOWN. CINCY STATE IS A SHELL OF WHAT WAS ADVERTISED AS TO STUDENT ENROLLMENT AND DOWNTOWN FOOT TRAFFIC. RESTAURANTS CLOSE AS FAST AS NEW ONES OPEN. EVEN THE SUB SHOP (CAN'T THINK IF THE NAME AND 59 DEGREES WERE SHORT-LIVED. NO REAL LONG TERM SUCCESSES IN ANY NUMBER DOWNTOWN TO DATE. WE WILL JUST AGREE TO DISAGREE ABOUT THE SUCCESS OF THE DOWNTOWN AREA. FAIR ENOUGH? ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 03 2014 at 4:09pm
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BOY O BOY I am happy that the downtown group did another Santa parade. At least someone did something(nothing from Kroger, Mejier, WalMart etc?). Vet, pal--u come off a little negative and grumpy here. Why rip the few trying to make that struggling area work? They are vested there, and doing what they should be doing. So let's give them respect due. I don't see much activity anywhere else here(and honestly not much there either). Do I see the former downtown area booming? NO I DON'T(I am there or pass thru most days). We have collectively paid for most of what has happened there over the last 20 years. It is time for the area to stand on it's own and make it or bust. I hope that it makes it. I have no problem going there, and like a lot of those trying to make it work. Are they lining their pockets? Hardly--for some it has been a lot of expense. The restaurants and bars are too quiet. The Pendleton seems to be struggling. The Sorg Opera House makes little sense for the $$ and may well be a pipe dream. But---you can't be-little and slam the residents and owners trying to make something work. It is seldom easy or quick. It WILL get better---not sure just how much or how quickly. Hey--it can't get much worse than it was. If the lady went there, supported the businesses and had a good time--then that can only be a good thing. Maybe Vet, acclaro and over the hill should meet me at the brew pub for a fancy beer(my treat)---middiemom is welcome to join us to see that we are all human wanting something enjoyable and better! on the subject of MIDDIES--went to the game last night. Huge crowd that should have had somewhere approximate to go afterwards. Downtown was locked up tight. Middies are an exciting work in progress. Jump on the bandwagon now, because it should be very good by mid-season. And nothing about the event in our sham of a newspaper--so disappointing--Luke in the house that Luke built on the Wade E stage--the strong Middie underclassmen---and the most incredible halftime show in my memory that was worth twice the time and cost of admission. I am disgusted by our division by neighborhood area. We need to support this community in it's entirety. One area alone probably won't be attractive/strong enough to bring us back. It is proven that the former downtown and arts alone won't do it. We have waited long enough. Time to support every area of the community, and those surrounding us. If a few make it and the rest don't, we all lose. jmo--flame me but remember--I am fireproof! |
Posted By: middiemom
Date Posted: Dec 03 2014 at 4:37pm
Well said Spider! It's hard to try when there are those that complain no matter what happens. I recently ran into an official who is trounced here on an almost daily basis. I was speaking to him about community involvement and if he reads postings on this site. He said he stopped because no matter what he does NOTHING is good enough. He said he could find a million dollars for every taxpayer in the city and people on here would complain.Spider I agee with you about not focusing on particuliar neighborhoods when all should be our focus. Just like our focus should be on the brighter future not the nostalgic past. I just get excited when there are new establishments that my circle of friends can frequent and right now those appen to be downtown. Spider you are a voice of reason, so many others are either stuck in the past or seem so wrapped up in other people and their lives. If these views about our current council, whether right or wrong, I suggest you stop complaining and do something about it instead of complaining about what one woman's opinion is. 
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 03 2014 at 4:57pm
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Spider: Brew pub??? Is it even open yet??? Is it open after dark??? Am I allowed??? (You don't have to treat, I'll buy my own...and maybe even spring for one for you!!)  ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 03 2014 at 5:17pm
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lol mike--they let me in(though some eyebrows raised), so you should be good. Flash a twenty and they will love you. I thought that concept might wake you up. middiemom--I was here for that nostalgic past--it wasn't that incredible but much more liveable and less dangerous than now. Just got my holiday hair cut, and upon leaving, walked right past a drug transaction involving a group of very nasty looking people. EVERYONE reads musa whether they admit it or not. no pity for city officials from me---their actions often defy sensibility. THEY have put us in this--not musa postings. Reading about raiding the public safety funds for the reasons mentioned chaps me to no end. I would like someone involved to come here and explain(since it won't show up in our newspaper). An explanation is not asking much, and should come without asking imo. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 03 2014 at 6:03pm
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And....perhaps someone can enlighten many as to why the city is approving $20 Kk for the city manager relo when they also extended his mandated move for many months.
------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 03 2014 at 7:18pm
Spider, I said my piece with as much civility as is in me as I deal with impossible management demands at work and the no-win situation I have at home. Work is no escape from home and home doesn't cure the working ills nowadays. Nowhere to run. (See Martha and the Vandellas song) You and alot of other people that have been around a long time know the situation. What it was. What it is now. We all can logically compare the change. It is only the people who seem to ignore the facts, figures and incredibly what their own eyes allow them to see. In reading your post, I believe we both said the same things, yours being more "kinder/gentler/diplomatic" which I don't believe in using. I did not attack middiemom on a personal basis. I did no worse than her placing me in the "grouchy old man" category. She will be there one day when she has seen enough nonsense in this city. Just not her time as yet. Having an upscale brew at an establishment downtown you say? Given my comments about the yuppie/artzy thinking, wouldn't that make me a hypocrite if I took you up on the offer? Still, I would enjoy talking to middiemom to understand why she sees the same situation in a totally different prospective. As a matter of fact, I would like to sit down with many who are on the other side of the fence to see why they think the way they do. Optimist/pessimist- glass half full/half empty ongoing battle I guess. Middiemom mentions that she has talked to a city official who reads the comments on here and who claims he can do nothing to please anyone here. Very simple concept. Start doing the right thing for the city and change your stripes and the criticism will stop. It is abundantly clear within the pages of this forum what many think is acceptable as to city direction. Still, the same person who has taken the forum abuse seems to maintain the posture drawing the criticism. His choice. Start doing what is right for the people and drop the city mantra which has proven to be a disaster for decades and he just may find he has more support here. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
spiderjohn wrote:Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 7:46am
| I'd like to make a small comment that no one else seems to have any concern over. The beginning of this thread had a statement by "middiemom" about "undesirables" and how she was able to stay separated from them for her "safety". While you're getting the "warm fuzzy" feeling from lording over those you feel should not even be allowed to attend a public event, it might not hurt you to remember that the family of Jesus would have fit your "undesirable" label. It seems that while trying to get into the "spirit of the season", you turned the whole event into a personal judgement about the merits of other people you don't see as deserving to even attend. Perhaps before worrying about the faults of others, you should look for the fault in yourself. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 8:00am
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Middiemom |
Posted By: sunwyn
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 8:22am
| So, what constitutes an undesirable? Are they poor? Are they a different color? Religion? I would love to know the defining traits that make one undesirable. |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 8:31am
| I think I too may have been misunderstood.. I AM also FOR ANY business downtown to be successful. I think a lot of our posts are really coming from total frustration. The lack of vision from city hall .If you don't have the answers then step aside or bring in new blood or at least LISTEN. The same old same old isn't working. I really do not think ANYONE on this forum would NOT want a business to succeed. Keep city hall out of it and let the private sector do what they do best. JMO |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 8:39am
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Well Sunwyn |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 8:44am
| GIVING CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DO: Congradulations to Sam Ashworth and Roger Miller for being recognized for their sharing of our history for us all to enjoy. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 9:44am
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I find it a puzzling paradox that the city supporters cry foul when criticism is levied against failures and disappointments, and yet the 'historians' that are recognized for kindling historic facts about Middletown's once proud past, are applauded. It is the historic recognition and comprehension of the past that leads to the overwhelming disappointment of the city today. In sum, that is point to be made.
------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 10:10am
Oh really? I think there are several biblical scholars that would disagree with this statement. |
Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 11:52am
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MiddieMom, I'm so glad that you enjoyed the parade and are looking forward to the opening of the yoga studio. Thank you Linda Morman for all the work you do to get the parade organized. Please don't let all the negativism on this site get you down. There ARE a number of GOOD things happening in Middletown and they need all the support we can give them. Success breeds success. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 12:06pm
| The "undesirable" label can be applied by anyone to anyone. Your biblical "scholars" look through the prism of anyone not Christian being "undesirable". That, in and of itself, would render the family of Jesus "undesirables" since they were Jews! They holy family lived in a state that was occupied by Gentiles which would again make them "undesirables". A woman about to give birth was turned away from the inn because there was no room? No room for a woman in labor? The real point is that to stand on a public street while breaking the law (yes, alcohol consumption on the street is illegal) and complain that there are people who shouldn't be allowed to be there because they somehow don't fit a persons definition of "proper", seems to defeat the entire purpose of the season. So unless you subscribe to the notion that Christmas is a secular holiday that is for making money, a parade to celebrate Santa shouldn't be turned into a referendum on who should be allowed to attend. |
Posted By: Stanky
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 1:59pm
| processor, we were hearing about success that would happen once the mall roof was taken off, we heard about success with Cincy St, we've heard about it with Stained Bistro, we've heard about it when the Journal Bldg was supposed to be "lofts". Years go by. Where is the success? In my opinion, there is nothing that will work down there and the city should just let the free market run with it. No more handouts. Facts on the ground speak louder than anything a handful of MUSA posters say. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 2:06pm
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processor, would you mind defining and characterizing all the good happening in Middletown now? I remain amazed those whom have an objective vantage and critique the obvious, are deemed '"negativism." From my perch, I see business as usual, a few who make money or fame from the city, shouting the city is returning, making a comeback, when the numbers I see downtown, just don't support such assertions. The foot traffic has not been notably improved, and saying it will be so, does not make it so. Of course, everyone wishes it was booming, and Middletown was Indian Hills, but it isn't. With apologies, but having an added gas station that Mr. Robinson sold does not characterize an economic boom. Frankly, Middletown is barely keeping pace with Hamilton in renovation. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 2:48pm
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The Santa Parade is one good thing. The Canal Street bar, Murphy's Landing, the BBQ place on Central. Granted all are relatively small, but they are a start. My point was that instead of celebrating MiddieMom's fun experience at the parade and her excitement about the Yoga studio, many on this forum, jumped on her and told her that Middletown stinks. That downtown is not making a comeback. That she's crazy for even thinking of it and for having fun. Come on, anyone can find fault. Acclaro...No one said Middletown is Indian Hill, or Wyoming, or Montgomery, or Mason, or West Chester. No one said Middletown has turned the corner...it hasn't...but the bile and unconstructive criticism on this forum just gets old. MiddieMom had fun at a parade in downtown Middletown, is excited about a Yoga studio, and feels that downtown is starting to come back around and people on this forum couldn't be happy for her. They had to tell her that she's wrong. My goodness. Attitude affects behavior which affects outcome. |
Posted By: Stanky
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 3:14pm
| If middiemom had simply commended the parade then that is fine. But her post definitely smelled of one of the downtown backers who are pushing an agenda. Saying how many good things are going on down there without mentioning the multiple failings and the treadmill pace of progress is in effect promoting the groundless feel-good hope and change that the downtown crowd wants to sell everyone. And the problem with that is it leads to muzzled voices and little criticism the next time an idea comes out of Donham Abbey (to borrow acclaro's phrase) or the Main St crowd. These decisions have been made with far too much fluff, hope, and desperation than anything resembling data or a business plan. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 3:30pm
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Well stated. This is spin and buzz....which is lacking in substance and support. Unfortunately reality doesn't yet, reflect whimsical dreams. Clifton and Manfield are to Middletown, as Upper Arlington is to Hyde Park. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 5:30pm
| The real problem is Middletown city leaders and the Main Street crowd blame the musa site for stifling the propaganda all the problems with the reputation of the city is caused by individuals, the wrong type of people, negative minded residents, instead of the city leadership neglecting fundamental services and spending cash for its management faster than it came in. It doesn't make the pig prettier by applying lipstick, the make-over, and the new and improved town, is on display. Any truth Joe Mulligan and Dan Picard got Thorn Hill Lane paved by the city before Joe bought his $275,000 residential house on the street. Physician friend said it was. Not sure. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 6:02pm
Likewise processor, it is equally difficult to sit here and read a post from a person who sees a town condition that, at best, is not even close to reality as to success. Why do you, middiemom and others who support the current gameplan not see the failure rate, the promises that never come to fruition, the constent rhetoric of embellishment on future plans while ignoring the facts that most of the group of people that you support have a very high failure rate that has been documented? I don't understand the thinking coming from your side of the fence. Denial of what has happened, denial of actual historical facts and denial of the poor condition of this city have taken the place of real world activity. The city is NOT in as good as shape overall as you would have us believe. Pray tell, why do you and middiemom see only what you perceive to be good and hide your heads in the sand from all the bad that has happened? Not logical and only fooling yourselves. It is like talking to Ms. Andrew and the school people. With years of low performance data in front of their nose, they still believe that there is measurable improvement, enough to make them to fantasize that the schools are actually successful to the extent that they would have the public believe. It is incredible what the supporters of this city leadership and schools will believe. It is NOT what they say it is. Embellishment is an easy method to identify as being nonsense. Just compare it to what is really there. You say anyone can find fault. Likewise, anyone can pretend that bad is good as is the case with those who choose fantasy over reality. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 6:30pm
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I would mention if Middletown was experiencing such a great comback, the Dickerson's would have had one of their two sons or daughter become successors in the distributor. The young adults want nothing to do with Middletown. Other private second-third generation companies moving in same direction. Selling. Not passing on to dis-interested legacies. |
Posted By: middiemom
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 8:56pm
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Okay Vet, you're right. No one should try. Everyone should just be grumpy, negative and critique those who try. It's a lost cause you're right. You people have never been happy, nor will you be, about any positive news. You criticize people for starting businesses, you criticize people for ideas, you criticize the new landscaping, even one stating that you have to drive x amount of feet to find out you're in Middletown. I guess the exit signs for miles just say exit 32 for miles both north and southbound on I-75 with no mention of Middletown. You b!tch about not having a gas station off the exit then when Lenny procures one you tell us to not get excited about it. Everytime you people post you prove my point. You post rumors as if they are true and everyone buys into it. Spider you and Mr. Presta have credibility because you have put your money where your mouth is. The rest of you.......... P.s. Spot on processor!
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 04 2014 at 9:38pm
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Middlemom, you must enjoy the reverse psychology of using negative feedback to blast those that express rage associated with the collapse of Middletown. You should be far more outraged over the waste of taxpayer funds, on salaries and using street funds, that have led to an utter disgrace and soiled reputation of the city. If you can't figure that out, or chose to ignore, its your problem alone. My statement about the big M off the exit was an objective, educated statement about branding. If you recall, Middletown at one time, contemplated renting truck carriers to promote Middletown, either by placing them near the highway, or driving tractor trailers up and down the highway. Middletown is a city of parity, not break away. There isn't anything distinguishable about Middletown's exit from any other lining 75. As for Lenny R., great he sold his property he listed. Not sure about rumors, but the facts are fairly overwhelming what has transpired over the years, and where the blame lies. Lets hope someone puts up the capital for a Graeters in downtown, and a pilate studio. I'd dig that instead of driving to West Chester. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 05 2014 at 6:31am
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middiemom: Okay Vet, you're right. No one should try EVERYONE WHO IS IN A DEVELOPMENT POSITION SHOULD TRY. BUT FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD, DON'T KEEP TRYING THE SAME OLD FAILED THINGS OVER AND OVER AGAIN. THE CITY PLANNERS KEEP RE-INVENTING THE WHEEL AND LEARN NOTHING FROM PAST MISTAKES. TRY NEW CONCEPTS AND DISCARD THE OLD ONES. EVERYONE WANTS TO SEE THE TOWN PROSPER LADY. SOME JUST REALIZE THAT THE CURRENT GAMEPLAN HASN'T AND ISN'T WORKING NOW. WRONG DIRECTION FOR THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THIS CITY. middiemom: Everyone should just be grumpy, negative and critique those who try. It's a lost cause you're right THERE YOU GO AGAIN WITH THE OLD GRUMPY NEGATIVE THEME. THESE FEELING ARE BORNE OUT OF FRUSTRATION WITH IDEAS FOR THIS CITY THAT HAVE BEEN TIME-PROVEN AS FAILURES. THE PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE SUPPORTING SHOULD REALIZE THAT WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS NOT WORKING AND MOVE ON TO NEW IDEAS. THE HORSE YOU ALL ARE RIDING NOW HAS BEEN BEATEN TO DEATH AND WON'T FINISH THE RACE. GET A NEW HORSE THAT IS MORE SUITED TO THE TRACK. middiemom: You people have never been happy, nor will you be, about any positive news. You criticize people for starting businesses, you criticize people for ideas...... FOR THE PAST 30 + YEARS, THE PEOPLE RUNNING THIS CITY HAVE GIVEN US NOTHING TO BE HAPPY ABOUT. MERCY, OPEN YOUR EYES AND LOOK AT WHERE WE WERE 30-40 YEARS AGO AND WHERE WE ARE NOW. THE CITY IS A SHADOW OF ITSELF NOW AND HAS BEEN TRASHED. THAT IS A FACT. ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED HERE SINCE THE 50'S WILL VOUCH FOR THAT. middiemom: you criticize the new landscaping, even one stating that you have to drive x amount of feet to find out you're in Middletown. I guess the exit signs for miles just say exit 32 for miles both north and southbound on I-75 with no mention of Middletown. You b!tch about not having a gas station off the exit then when Lenny procures one you tell us to not get excited about it. NOPE, WASN'T ME WHO CRITICIZED THE ENTRYWAY AND GAS STATION IDEA. BUT, WHILE WE'RE ON THE SUBJECT, I WILL MAKE SOME COMMENTS. AS YOU DRIVE UP AND DOWN I-75, IN EITHER DIRECTION, ALL OF THE ENTRYWAYS FROM MONROE DOWN TO CINCY AND FROM FRANKLIN'S 123 EXIT TO AUSTIN PIKE'S EXIT, ARE DEVELOPED AND MIDDLETOWN IS THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS THAT DESERTED, DESOLATE LOOK TO IT? IT IS A FACT THAT THE AUSTIN PIKE EXIT WAS BUILT FROM SCRATCH AND THE DEVELOPMENT AROUND THIS EXIT HAS GROWN ALMOST OVERNIGHT IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. I PASS IT TO AND FROM WORK EVERYDAY SO I KNOW THIS TO BE A FACT. ALL THE WHILE, MIDDLETOWN'S EXIT, WHICH WAS CONSTRUCTED IN 1958 WHEN I-75 OPENED (I WAS THERE FOR THAT TOO)HAS SAT IDLE WITH NO ACTIVITY....NOT EVEN LANDSCAPING. THE PLANNERS AT AUSTIN PIKE HAD THEIR ACT TOGETHER AND THE MIDDLETOWN CITY LEADERS HAD NO CLUE WHAT TO DO, HOW TO DO IT........THAT, IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN MIDDLETOWN. ALWAYS A DAY LATE AND A DOLLAR SHORT ON ANYTHING THEY ATTEMPT AND THAT IS WHAT ANGERS SO MANY INCLUDING ME. INEPTNESS IS RUNNING RAMPANT IN THE CITY OF MIDDLETOWN THESE DAYS. middiemom: Everytime you people post you prove my point. You post rumors as if they are true and everyone buys into it. SOME POSTS HERE MAY BE RUMORS BUT A LARGE PORTION HAVE DATA TO SUPPORT THE STATEMENTS. WE HAVE A FEW GOOD RESEARCHERS THAT POST HERE THAT ARE EXCELLENT AT PROVIDING ACCOMPANYING DATA. middiemom: Spider you and Mr. Presta have credibility because you have put your money where your mouth is. The rest of you.......... BETTER ASK THEM. BOTH HAVE BEEN ANGERED BY THE ACTIVITY IN THIS TOWN THAT HAS ANGERED ALL OF US AT TIMES. WE ALL HAVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF CREDIBILITY, THE AMOUNT DETERMINED IN THE EYES OF THE BEHOLDER. SPIDER AND MIKE AREN'T THE ONLY ONES HERE THAT PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTHS ARE. MANY SPEAK WITH EXPERINCE AND HAVE ACTUALLY LIVED IN THIS TOWN IN GOOD TIMES. THEY ARE CREDIDIBLE BECAUSE THEY HAVE A BASIS FOR COMPARISON WITH THE CURRENT CONDITION OF THE CITY. THEY CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCES AND CAN FORMULATE AN ACCURATE OPINION BASED ON LOGIC, COMPARISONS AND ACTUAL FACTS. YOU AND PROCESSOR ENJOY THE SHOW, DRINK THE KOOL-AID, BELIEVE THE CITY MESSAGE AND KEEP SUPPORTING THE CURRENT DIRECTION, AND, PERHAPS, SOMEDAY, YOU'LL SEE THE LIGHT AS TO WHAT IS ACTUALLY OCCURING HERE. THEY'RE RUNNING A GAME ON YOU BUT YOU DON'T REALIZE IT AS YET. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 05 2014 at 9:20am
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look at what u started middiemom u went there, patronized and enjoyed yourself--- how could you? lol u should have been at the middies' benefit scrimmage to see the girl jump-ropers I admit to stopping by the brew pub last night sparse, though beau verre was rocking with a wood carver royal blues at music club tonight blue Christmas next sunday vet is a good guy he is entitled to his opinion without insults also contrary to admin/boa opinion--everyone on this site does not think alike on every matter and we are blessed with the return of mtown29 to brighten our vision! happy holidaze! |
Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Dec 05 2014 at 9:43am
| My goodness. Such vitriol. All the lady said was that she enjoyed the parade and was looking forward to a yoga studio. All I said was that we should be able to help her celebrate her good time and excitement without bringing up what sorry shape the city is in. You all just demonstrated my point. |
Posted By: middiemom
Date Posted: Dec 05 2014 at 11:51am
All I did is post my feelings about the Santa Claus parade and look what you people turned this into!!!! You highjacked this thread and turned something VERY positive into rantings and ravings of councils past and present. Your every post proves my point. None of you could have said "that's nice" or "sounds fun. I'll try and make it next year".Someone says something positive and here out of the woodworks come people wagging their fingers screaming "yeah but". I'm sure you are all good people but my goodness the anger and negativism are drowning. You complain about the exit off I 75 being desolate. I reply that the gas station and new eatery are a good step. You post Lenny sold his land. Good for him. It's unbelieveable. Someone even posted something about Marcia Andrew on this thread!!!!!!!! What the H does she have to do with the Santa Claus parade?????? Nothing will happen with a snap of a finger and become a utopia. It takes baby steps in some cases. It takes no work at all to be negative. Being negative is easy. It takes work to be happy and optimistic. Spider I'll be at the Blues Christmas as well. Because I, as you, support local benefits and activities in this soon to be great again city. It's Christmas time people. Please for yourselves and your own health find something to be thankful for. No matter how much work it takes believe me it is worth it. P.s. I don't drink Kool Aid. I prefer a nice Cabernet.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 05 2014 at 12:03pm
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Your post wasn't about a good time. It was a billboard advertisement about yoga in a building with broken glass, mold, an empty shell, and applauding a 135,000 retired city manager for being in attendance. False narrative mom. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 05 2014 at 12:49pm
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Hope the building is ok, because my wife is excited about the yoga classes and plans to attend In the spirit. It wouldn't hurt anything if we tried to understand the reasoning behind each other's thinking and appreciated the good intentions of everyone here. Hoping and working for better will never be a bad thing. Neither will cutting through the bs and pointing out realities. Balance is healthy and necessary. I appreciate this site and its opinions and information, + I already received a phone call from a high-up about what I said in this heading prior. Trust me-- most DO read this site. Musa holiday meet/greet party at the brew pub? |
Posted By: middiemom
Date Posted: Dec 05 2014 at 1:49pm
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See? Me and my girlfriends being excited about something is a billboard advertisement. Are you going to rip sj because his wife is excited also? Why do you have to interject what Judy made? What difference does it make? I was simply stating it was nice to see her still showing support. Also I would think/hope that they would fix the windows in the old journal building. It would make it awful hard to have hot yoga classes in the winter!!!!! Also, I'm sure someone on here can enlighten me as to what the structure being erected in the Towne Mall Galleria's parking lot is going to be. Thanks!!
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 05 2014 at 2:53pm
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Dec 06 2014 at 1:06am
| MiddieMom: unless things have changed, it has been reported several times that the Cincinnati Bell building would be demolished, and a mattress factory outlet store would be built. just 1 chmoore. |
Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Dec 06 2014 at 11:25am
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^Are you talking about downtown or the former Cincy Bell store at the mall next to the KFC? The latter seems like it would be a likely case. MattressFirm recently has had an aggressive growth strategy. They have two locations at Dayton Mall within spitting distance of one another and they demolished a former Wendy's in Huber Heights at 202 and I-70 to build a store.
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Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Dec 06 2014 at 11:33am
Glad to hear it! Some good steps are being made towards a diverse, progressive, and desirable Middletown. It's not going to come fast, but step by step it'll get there if those in power are careful. I disagree with 99+% of posters on here that think downtown developments are a waste of time/money. I don't think anything could be further from the truth. Middletown needs to embrace what it is and build on it, not destroy it in the opes that it'll become some kind of "suburban wonderland" overnight after plowing down every building in town.One city is already trying that method locally - it's called Springfield. Ever hear about them doing well? I didn't think so. But Middletown has major quality of life issues with pollution. No one wants to live, work, or play in a toxic environment. So until Middletown addresses that, I don't think it'll be going anywhere unless it just wants to go full industrial, buy out its citizens, bulldoze their houses, and become a full-out industrial zone. But I don't think anyone in Middletown wants this alternative to happen. So let's start supporting what's happening down and throughout the city to make it a better place. We all know no one else will until we draw them in.
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Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Dec 06 2014 at 6:49pm
Apologies for the grammatical errors in the previous post. In bold are my corrections.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 07 2014 at 8:26am
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Trotwood: "It's not going to come fast, but step by step it'll get there if those in power are careful." Not going to come fast. You can say that again Trotwood. In the mid 60's, the downtown was thriving even though downtown stores where slowly migrating to the new Middletown Shopping Center on Breiel, built in 1958. Downtown slowly became a deserted part of the city with the infamous revival attempt, City Centre Mall, failing to bring it back in the 70's. (13 million to demolish it-don't remember the cost to build it).... Trotwood: "I disagree with 99+% of posters on here that think downtown developments are a waste of time/money. I don't think anything could be further from the truth." This is in response to your comment about plowing money into downtown. This and the millions for loans to businesses, facade improvements, taxpayer money used to start the Pendleton Arts building, the Rose Furniture building, etc....all not amounting to any measurable success. So far, the track record seems to indicate that it indeed, has been a waste of time and money. The results to date don't lie. Again, as always for the people who are seeing something that is not, it is what it is. Trotwood: "Middletown needs to embrace what it is and build on it, not destroy it in the hopes that it'll become some kind of "suburban wonderland" overnight after plowing down every building in town.One city is already trying that method locally - Springfield. Ever hear about them doing well? I didn't think so." Middletown needs to embrace what it is and build on it, not destroy it you say? Then you need to talk to the ex city manager who, under her regime, tore down everything in sight. Just look at the empty spaces around the downtown area. Look at the empty lots where Garfield and Roosevelt schools once stood. Look at Sunset Park and the empty land where the pool once was. All around town, this city administration is knocking down buildings and leaving empty lots. I don't know of one demolished site that has been built on and re-occupied. It looks like new city manager Adkins is continuing the Gilleland thinking. He is an integral part of the city looking as desolate as it does. He loves to destroy things, both run down properties as well as decent ones. Trotwood: (You must be an environmentalist. Always commenting on Middletown's pollution issues.) "But Middletown has major quality of life issues with pollution. No one wants to live, work, or play in a toxic environment. So until Middletown addresses that, I don't think it'll be going anywhere unless it just wants to go full industrial.This would include buying out its citizens, bulldoze their houses, and becoming a full-out industrial zone" A little history here. Back in the 50's and 60's, Armco Steel use to pour the red oxide smoke out the stacks. These were the days before the stack scrubbers were installed. I lived within view of the blast furnace on Grand Ave during that time and EVERYTHING was covered with the red dust. Wash the car and it would be covered with red dust in a half hour. Windows were rolled down on the cars- (usually due to no air-conditioning in cars back then). People still hung laundry out on the lines. People still went to Smith Park for the Knothole/Pee Wee football games. People still shopped, sat out on the porch and in the backyard. Plenty of outdoor activities going on back then. Wasn't a big deal at the time and people still went on living. Trotwood: "So let's start supporting what's happening down and throughout the city to make it a better place. We all know no one else will until we draw them in." Most would prefer to see progress made downtown. Most want more for this town as to job selection, shopping selections, restaurant selections, etc. Most would prefer to see this city grow again and be looked on in a favorable light. Most would prefer that the city go in another direction in doing it. What is happening now and for the last 20+ years isn't working well enough to make a dent in addressing these issues. The downtown has been in a state of flux since the 70's. No real major positive change has happened. Some people say the town is doing well. As a long-time (since 1948) resident, I just don't see that to be the case. Most surrounding communities have bypassed us years ago. Look at West Chester, Mason and Springboro, cornfields when I was a kid in the 50's. Middletown was the "big brother" back then.....and prosperous. Now, a 180 degree turnaround as to status. They have all become high end/influential communities and Middletown has taken on low-income ghetto-like persona. No, IMO, to support the current gameplan from the city leaders in developing this city is not the direction we should be going. They have had their chance and have been on this path of development for years now and it has not led this city into the light of day. Time to try new things with new thinking coming from new people. Time to fire the entire city leadership gang and go for some competence for a change. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Dec 07 2014 at 5:30pm
You bring up an excellent point that feeds into one I made earlier about the "suburbanization" of Middletown. The City Centre Mall (which yes I remember) was a classic example of failed urban policy, done in an attempt to make cities more auto-friendly, weather-resistant, and inorganic. What planners didn't realize is you can't take a city and make it a suburb, but this has since been learned. Downtown malls fail because they don't work in an urban environment. They don't connect well with the ways people in urban areas travel, and their attempts at connecting to suburban shoppers are futile since suburban areas have distinct advantages for handling automobile traffic. Here's one article on why downtown malls fail: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-11-26/cincinnati-wants-to-revitalize-dead-downtown-mall" rel="nofollow - http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-11-26/cincinnati-wants-to-revitalize-dead-downtown-mall In fact, general economics don't work in favor of many retail being viable in center cities. The exception is specialty uses which carry smaller products. I could bore you all on the reasons why not, but basically it boils down to the simple fact that people who walk to a location can only really buy as much as they can hold, so they make buy less at a time and make more trips. Malls don't support any of that. As an aside, here's some good pictures of the City Centre Mart: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=6184.0" rel="nofollow - http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=6184.0
I made a comment on plowing money into downtown? I'm in agreement with you on using taxpayer money. The economics should support re-use of these properties, not government funding. And that will happen if the price is low enough. What I (and assume you and many others on here) would be in favor is a % reimbursement for purchasers of these properties after repairs have been made. An expense report could be turned in, auditing could occur by an inspector checking to make sure the improvements occurred, and then funding could be paid. But not before. Regardless though, it seems somewhat hypocritical to rail on funding allocated to downtown projects and not on tax breaks to ventures like the jobless Power Plant or the demolitions occurring in town.
You would be right. I do not agree with what Gilleland did in regards to demolitions. I believe blighted and unused properties should be allowed to stand until the market finds a viable use unless they are damaged beyond repair (ex - major structural issues or extensive fire damage). And think about the fact that once the city demolishes these properties, the costs don't magically disappear. There is still the cost of maintaining the property, guarding it, paying any additional necessary taxes on it to the county, state, federal government, etc. It a zero-sum game.
I am. Growing up in Middletown is a lot of the reason why.
That sounds horrible. Just keep in mind though, who cared about the environment (or personal health, for that matter) in the '50's and '60's? No One. How do I know? Think about those decades carefully. Pittsburgh lived under a constant cloud of smoke so think that you couldn't even see the sun at high noon. People didn't realize smoking cigarettes was hazardous to their health, nor did they give a second thought about spraying chemicals in aerosol cans. The Cuyahoga River was so polluted, instead of thinking to clean it up people continued to ignore it and dump in more chemicals until it caught fire. Drinking and driving was socially acceptable. I could continue. So we know better now. People are more educated. They would realize the "red dust" is toxic - and would never want to live near it. So considering the fact that is now near impossible to get people to leave their houses (again, take a trip around your average Monroe subdivision and count the number of people you see out and about), there is no way in heck they would go outside in a polluted environment.
I don;t necessarily disagree with this. I think you have a good point. But I am wondering what the new plan would be.
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Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Dec 07 2014 at 9:28pm
| Well, why don't you ask Dougie he seems to have all the answers but he won't publish his plan that he presented at the city managers presentation. We are the people who live here but we don't deserve the curtesy of being told what the future plans might be. Maybe there maybe some on this forum that just might be interested in jumping on his band wagon .but his ego thinks we're not worthy and he's sooo much smarter that the rest of us. He needs to get out of that "Judy frame of mind" he may just find more people willing to help in his corner. IMO |
Posted By: Neil Barille
Date Posted: Dec 08 2014 at 9:05am
| Trotwood, while I appreciate your environmental concerns I must disagree. Among the 2-3 top reasons people say they don't want to move to Middletown is NOT the industrial presence. They mention the schools, poverty and crime. And as for Monroe -- not sure which part of Monroe you are referring to but it seems that the newer houses there are going for $200,000. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 08 2014 at 9:35am
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Vet, while I don't believe it is the reason Miami at Oxford is using to release itself from its two community schools, as I believe West Chester is still in the desired mix, I do agree that Oxford is a more challenging campus. However, many students who can't get accepted into Miami at Oxford right after high school can transfer after one semester, a 2.0 GPA, and 20 hrs of credits. A student can get into MUM without taking the ACT/SAT, or even having a transcript, just a high school diploma. So, this of the differences. At Miami Oxford, you'll need about a 3.9 GPA, a 28 or above on the ACT, to have a chance of acceptance, or bring a diploma stating you graduated from high school, take 20 hrs, make a 2.0 GPA at MUM, or MUH, and you are at Oxford. Quite a difference in standards after a semester. Students graduate from MUM or MUH with a degree stating its Miami of Oxford, including transcripts if one transfers. That is very advantageous if one wants to do a year at MUM, make good grades, then go to a top highly selective school like Furman, Vanderbilt, Duke, etc. Therefore, there is a diminishing of the brand at Oxford in their mind, when having no distinction from it, and the regional campus. My viewpoint is since all the state regional schools are now feeders or allow 100% transfer of hours from their program into Ohio U, Ohio State, Miami, WSU, etc., there is no real distinction between any of the schools. I add many Oxford students will take core classes at MUM OR MUH, to save the credit hour difference; as the regional cost per hr, is about .20 % of Oxford. Likewise, many fine students that start a semester at MUM or MUH, do exceptional at Oxford and every bit as competitive at Oxford than the student starting there direct from high school. Hence, I believe the real play at Oxford on the debate is more to do with making a distinction between the campuses, and in my opinion, it makes sense that so many regional campuses allow for the 100% transfer regardless of the state institution transferred, Ohio should probably put the smaller regional schools into one heading, probably Ohio State based upon size. Miami gets a ton of students from Chicago that could not get into U of Chicago, UW at Madison, Northwestern, etc., so I suspect they do want to free some space for the out of state students with the big pocket books. My wife's sorority when she was at Oxford, was about 65% very well to do Lake Forest, Barrington, north shore gals that could not get into Northwestern. I personally think Kenyon is the best college in Ohio. Regarding the bld within the Mall parking lot, I heard from an exec at Louisville Slugger, they were building a plant that would produce carbon fiber ball bats as the ash tree has died in so many states, and the company is forced to transition to an alternative from wood. There was even talk a smaller minor league baseball team might be coming to Middletown where the bats would be used, perhaps down on the river banks. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 08 2014 at 11:42am
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Oh yes I remember it well….those good old days In the summer the streets and parks were filled with kids
playing games and on really hot days the three pools in Trotwood, you are concerned about pollution? Do you know
what goes into making all the chips that run all of these devices that you just
can’t live without? Channel 9 News video |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 08 2014 at 12:16pm
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Vivian: "Pollution is not Middletown’s big problem Middletown is know for...Reputation….Schools…Crime…Poverty… " And Vivian, could you elaborate on how we got this reputation, poor schools, high crime and rampant poverty? It wouldn't be because we invited those elements to town and the aftermath of the ghetto development theme for revenue that brought the town to it's knees, would it? Wonder who could be at fault for that decision? ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 08 2014 at 1:07pm
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Vet |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 08 2014 at 2:03pm
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Vivian: Do you mean to tell us that the majority of the problems concerning reputation, crime, the poor school reputation and the perceived ghetto-like condition of this city, are a direct result of the actions of those who were placed in charge of running the city and the schools but were so inept in doing so that the city and schools are now a disaster? If this is true, I wonder why anyone would get on this forum and support those types of people who would intentionally ruin a once decent city because of their inability to guide the city using logical, progressive methods for the good of the people rather but chose self motivated means to use the city for their own selfish enrichment motives and those of a select few? Why, that sounds almost criminal in nature. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Dec 08 2014 at 3:37pm
| well, city hall, If the shoe fits...... |
Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Dec 08 2014 at 3:39pm
+1. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Dec 08 2014 at 4:22pm
Good points Vivian. I added an additional bolding in your first paragraph, because it highlights what I'm trying to illustrate well. Also, I was not able to access your video link - is there a hyperlink? Anyways, to your question - yes, I know exactly what goes into those chips. It's horrific. The best video I know of to show how exactly the process is destroying our environment is here (c/o 60 Minutes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCGEvOmKo98" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCGEvOmKo98 Please take time to watch the whole clip. It exposes a lot of evil. And yes, it'll make you think twice about buying the latest electronic gizmo. Yet another reason besides being a broke college student why I choose to spend as little as possible, and when I do make "luxury purchases" I normally use them for nicer meals and products from local vendors. Anyways, what Middletown was like 50 years ago or today is of course nowhere near as bad as shown in the video I linked, but I hardly find it an apt excuse for the pollution. Healthy communities aren't built around poison. Think about other steel towns, mining towns, heck, even logistics towns in today's society (check out this article for info there): http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicagarrison/how-our-shopping-harms-the-lungs-of-california-children" rel="nofollow - http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicagarrison/how-our-shopping-harms-the-lungs-of-california-children But back to the questions/comments you and VietVet posed - as I understand it, the basic philosophy is: 1. Middletown was great _____ years ago. 2. Middletown was killed by city leaders because _______. 3. Middletown is still being killed because ________. I hear a lot about steps 1, 2, and 3 but never about step 4 - the step where things get fixed. There are ways, as a community, to get things fixed. As noted earlier in this thread, this forum is an excellent avenue to make change happen. It gets a lot of traffic. With that traffic, maybe some action could be motivated. Like with Weatherwax was on the chopping block, I saw encouragement from John Beagle to go golfing there, but I never saw a "Middletown USA Golf meet-up to save Weatherwax", for instance. Ms. Moon, you as well take action by getting council minutes and posting them on here, which does make a difference in who is truly informed. But to get stuff done, why not take it as far as you can until you start to see results? Even if you all threw around a hey let's protest ________ at ________ time because ________, that'd be cool. Send your message by being present in the right place. It's easy to ignore one, harder to ignore 10, near impossible to ignore 100. Heck, if you threw a protest against wasting money on demolitions, I'd even show up! Complaining on here quasi-anonymously does only so much good. Especially when those whom you are complaining about might not be very receptive to criticism. But anyways, let me get back to your direct point - Middletown is known for... Reputation...Schools...Crime...Poverty. You're right, it is. And yes, right now those are probably the primary reasons why people don't want to move to Middletown. How is it going to get fixed? Hamilton is a great case study of this situation. 15 years ago, when I was in Middletown, it was run-down but overall not too bad of a place. Visually it looked fairly good. Contrasting with Hamilton, it looked far better, cleaner, and nicer. But now look which city is cleaner, nicer, has better schools and overall is doing better - Hamilton! (pun slightly intended). Why? Because Hamilton has done an excellent job capitalizing on the resources it already has, from its built downtown to its neighborhoods and diverse industry base. Admittedly Hamilton is not perfect, but it's to the point where on paper it makes just as much sense for a family to relocate there as Fairfield does. That's a long ways from Middletown, which honestly could not be considered a viable alternative to Trenton, Monroe, or even Franklin in its current state. Middletown could do the same as Hamilton if it took some bold actions. Like increasing taxes on heavy industrial users who actively pollute the community. Like reducing boulevards into two-lane streets with bikeways and other public spaces. Like saying NO to the new power plant and YES to allowing community gardens and public use areas, temporarily, on empty lots where houses and industry used to stand. Even following in the footsteps of Welcome Dayton would be a good start (again, I'm looking directly at Hamilton's sizable Hispanic population here). This stuff doesn't have to be expensive. In fact, it shouldn't be. What city leaders should try and do is build the best possible community for those who ALREADY LIVE IN MIDDLETOWN and stop worrying as much about trying to throw a bunch of money at things that don't improve quality of life, like the interchange landscaping, or at businesses without a plan. Having these quality of life amenities will draw people in, help give them a better life that doesn't revolve around the vices that are in Monroe, and succeed as productive tax-paying citizens. That's all I'm saying. The good days can come back. Sure, they'll look different, but with the right vision it's possible. Those walkable communities you referenced, the time where people actually interact with one another - it can happen. If you don't believe me take a trip to OTR in Cincy, Troy, the OD in Dayton, or Covington KY. It can happen, the infrastructure is already there. What it needs is use. And that requires supporting what your city already has and not tearing it down all the time. Unless y'all want to end up like the Inland Empire...
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Posted By: Perplexed
Date Posted: Dec 08 2014 at 5:34pm
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Over The Hill, Acclaro, Vivian, Etc. - I'm hearing that there may be financial ramifications involving the past Section 8 Program concerning the City of Middletown and HUD. Could this be true Herr Dougmeister and Mr. Fooks? If so, could the damage be in the millions? |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 08 2014 at 6:24pm
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Trotwood said: I hear a lot about steps
1, 2, and 3 but never about step 4 - the
step where things get fixed.
There are ways, as a
community, to get things fixed. As noted earlier in this
thread, this forum is an excellent avenue to make change happen. It gets a lot
of traffic. With that traffic, maybe
some action could be motivated. Like with Weatherwax was on the chopping block,
I saw encouragement from John Beagle to go golfing there, but I never saw a
"Middletown USA Golf meet-up to save Weatherwax", for instance. Dear Trotwwood, I have been protesting for years, probably
long before you were even born. I have painted enough signs to fill a small
house and walked hundreds of miles getting signatures on petitions for various
causes at local, county, state and national levels over the years. I have taken
many of the issues that I have posted about on this blog to the next level and
also helped others with the needed research to win their battles against City
Hall. I want those that read this blog to have the facts and be well informed
about how City Hall is spending their tax dollars. Even if you all threw
around a hey let's protest ________ at ________ time because ________, that'd
be cool. Send your message by being present in the right place. It's easy to
ignore one, harder to ignore 10, near impossible to ignore 100. Heck, if you
threw a protest against wasting money on demolitions, I'd even show up!
Complaining on here quasi-anonymously does only so much good. Especially when
those whom you are complaining about might not be very receptive to criticism.
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Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Dec 08 2014 at 9:10pm
| Trout wood, there are been many on this blog that HAVE taken up signs and even spoken before council. Some of those people have seen their businesses more or less boycotted afterwards. The click gets together and remarks are made and ...... and it begins. Word of mouth is your best advertisement and your worst. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 09 2014 at 10:32am
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ironically, Trotwood, if you addressed city admin/council with your issues, you would receive a cold silent stare, a "thank you for coming" and expressing your views, then you would be thrown on to the same "negative citizen/troublemaker" pile that the rest of us are in. First--our city must admit that these situations exist--be honest on the problems from past decisions--remove all responsible for these pas failed concepts and actions--and embrace a more broad group of citizens and ideas to collectively work toward solutions. After your anticipated pollution comments, the mic/camera would have shut off, and you would have been dismissed as another problem person that must be frozen out and ignored. We are the cheapest local area to pollute, and have been for decades. Any agreement? |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 09 2014 at 11:47am
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Yes on all of the above. Middletown will always be an industrial city, as is Charlestown, WV, Ashland, Mansfield, Detroit, etc. The city has been reactive for too many years, not proactive. From my vantage, any attempt downtown for revitalization is a head fake; a feeble attempt to show those whom the city doesn't want to leave associated with disposable income, the city is making certain amentities available, ergo, restaurants other than national chains, drinks, culture, available. Focus on keeping people in, not bringing them in from other communities. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Dec 09 2014 at 6:48pm
haha I would definitely believe it! Those who makes waves aren't the ones who make friends, as I've found out many times myself (if you can't tell from my track record on here haha). Definitely makes me have a lot of respect for Ms. Moon and her above comments about her history. Anyways, you do have a lot of excellent points. In particular I like the part I bolded in your above statement. You hit the nail on the head there - what's needed is more community involvement so following the failed plans can be stopped once and for all. As far as I know, you are also correct that Middletown is the cheapest place to pollute in the area at the moment. But if the right dis-incentives were in place (i.e. higher taxes, more regulations, etc.), the polluters would go to other places lik Colerain Twp. by Mt. Rumpke, SW Dayton, or even further away like Portsmouth or Gary IN. What I'm asking is that something you all want for your home? (I'm assuming most of you own property in city limits). I understand some dirty jobs have to get done, but why in your own backyard? I pose this question because I don't see, as a 20-something, how Middletown could ever be competitive as a residential city with all the polluters it currently has in town. So I see two options for Middletown's future: Option 1 happens when a livable, walkable, and social community is created, complete with amenities unique to Middletown and a distinct positive culture. All it would take to get to this point is pursuit of some of the current efforts, re-focusing on school quality, and a tough stance on pollution to get people out of their houses, on their feet, and walking/jogging/biking etc. in the community. Option 2 buys them out when (and only when) the market dictates low enough housing prices to justify wide-scale demolition. In the meantime, deterioration would occur. Then, everything in sight is bulldozed and converted to heavy industrial use. Minus the industry, a great nearby example of where this is happening is about 20 miles up Rt. 4 in West Dayton (and yes Trotwood as well, which is one of the reasons why I use it as my username). This option would also be easy to get to if the city continues down its current path of providing good tax incentives for polluters, demolishing viable buildings, and continuing to create a negative and hostile environment for its residents. That's why I've been frustrated with the negativity against some of the improvements downtown, because those are great strides toward Option 1. Sure, it may be a small group of Gilleand et. al. trying to seek personal glory, but at least those efforts provide good amenities for the people already in Middletown. I will agree that maybe throwing money at art isn't the best avenue, but the Manchester Inn plan would go a long way towards providing a more positive community. As does the brewery that opened up, park renovations, bike trails, etc. I think someone even mentioned a potential minor league team upthread - imagine the potential that could have! All it needs is some support. Look at where the Dayton Dragons are today - a story, originally, of unprobable success to the longest record of sold-out games in history (all 14 years of operation and counting!) So when we chat, I can see you all are very interested in the well-being of Middletown. And you all do a lot to support it. But the negativity at times is stifling - it stifles ideas, new thought, even the notion that progress could ever happen at all. And from our discussions I can almost be certain this is the attitude (or worse) City Hall gives to you all and everyone else in town now. So it might not be ideal, but all I'm saying is maybe if you guys were more supportive of what's happening downtown and more supportive of the city's future through visiting these facilities you could all make Middletown a better place. Because people would see you there, know you go and like ______ places, and they will go too. And then their friends in town do the same and so on. From what I've seen, that's the best way to really get involvement, motivate people, and make positive change happen. There's already a lot of great resources in town, show there's demand for more and better.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 10 2014 at 6:45am
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Ok Trotwood, for your understanding, from a long time resident of this city. These are my comments and don't necessarily reflect others on this forum.... Trotwood: "Those who makes waves aren't the ones who make friends,"...... I don't want to be friends with those that are running this city and don't care what they think of those who question their nonsense. They have done irreparable damage to this town and it should have been stopped a long time ago. They are not my kind of people. They are the enemy and a cancer and they need to be run out of town. Blunt, but truthful. I hate it when society thinks that those who make waves are the problem. Can't stand when the label of "disgruntled" is used without trying to understand why one may be disatisfied with the way things are. They may have good reasons but no one ever asked, but rather just labels them. Perhaps they don't want to know as it may indict their actions. History shows us that those who make waves have changed things for the better.....Example- the Revolutionary War. The protests during the Vietnam War. Some occasions of civil disobedience are necessary when things are obviously wrong coming from those in charge. IMO, it has always been an option to question authority when one believes them to be wrong. Of course, one risks the chance of paying the price for doing it, but sometimes it must be done or a correct outcome has no chance of happening. Trotwood: "That's why I've been frustrated with the negativity against some of the improvements downtown, because those are great strides toward Option 1. Sure, it may be a small group of Gilleand et. al. trying to seek personal glory, but at least those efforts provide good amenities for the people already in Middletown." The negativity is two-fold. First, they have wasted millions of taxpayer dollars on THEIR AGENDA. Secondly, they NEVER ASKED "WE THE PEOPLE" WHAT WE WANTED for OUR DOWNTOWN that was paid for from OUR TAX MONEY. They used our tax money, devised this nonsensical arts/culture crap for their OWN PERSONAL GAIN AND INTEREST, and left us out of the whole affair. Should insult most who live here. What has transpired downtown does not "provide good amenities for the people already in Middletown" if most are not interested in those amenities provided. If most are not interested in what's offered, what good is it? Trotwood: "So it might not be ideal, but all I'm saying is maybe if you guys were more supportive of what's happening downtown and more supportive of the city's future through visiting these facilities you could all make Middletown a better place. Because people would see you there, know you go and like ______ places, and they will go too. And then their friends in town do the same and so on. From what I've seen, that's the best way to really get involvement, motivate people, and make positive change happen. There's already a lot of great resources in town, show there's demand for more and better" But some of us don't like what is going on downtown and as such, will never support a thing it offers. WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE PROGRAM like others do like processor and middiemom. They like what is offered downtown and believe in the gameplan. I do not and think it is the wrong fit for the demographics of this city. The people downtown do not understand what the MAJORITY of people in Middletown are interested in or they would have offered it by now. IMO. the whole concept of development needs to be changed to accomdate a more middle-class,blue-collar crowd that would draw many more people down there. Cultural things are not what this town is about. Working class things are. Trotwood: "I pose this question because I don't see, as a 20-something, how Middletown could ever be competitive as a residential city with all the polluters it currently has in town. Trotwood, a little history here......Middletown use to be a heck of a lot more polluted than it is now. Armco was going strong. There was Sorg Paper, Wren Paper, Crystal Tissue, Raymond Bag, Black Clawson, Aeronca, and all the metal fabricators in town adding to the pollution. Back in those days, the EPA and all the new safety and pollution regulations were not in place. Scrubbers were not on the stacks. Chemicals were dumped in Dick's Creek or in a back lot pit on the company property. No control at all like nowadays. YET, MIDDLETOWN WAS STILL A HIGHLY DESIRABLE PLACE TO LIVE AND WORK. One of the better communities around the area for opportunities to enjoy a nice living and life. It didn't need to compete back then because it offered residents and people considering moving here opportunities. Bottom line......even with the worst pollution from industry here, it still maintained a decent population level back then. Question for you as an environmentalist.... If a town like Middletown would offer many industrial employment opportunities for people that included decent livable wages and a decent standard of living, do you think some pollution would keep them away? IMO, people will flock to where the decent wage and job opportunities are and "look the other way" if pollution is an issue. JMO ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Dec 10 2014 at 8:44am
^Lots of good points as always Vietvet. I'm currently in a time crunch, so I am sorry but I'll have to address your other points later. For right now though I wanted to address this point:
Nope, employment opportunities like that wouldn't keep people from working in Middletown, you are right. But they sure as heck wouldn't live there. As proof, I'll ask - how many employees who work at AK and can afford to live outside Middletown choose to do so? Want more proof? AK's HQ is now in West Chester, and one of the big reasons is because West Chester is closer to where AK's actual corporate employees live. It's also considered to be a more "desirable" community. I would assume the lack of pollution is a factor in this assumption. JMO.
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Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Dec 10 2014 at 10:04am
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Trotwood, In my opinion AK moved their headquarters to West Chester for four main reasons. 1. There is no income tax in West Chester 2. There were few amenities in Middletown for entertaining customers and the office was not in a pretty area 3. West Chester was closer to where executive management lives (east side of Cincinnati) and wasn't too far for all of the employees who still live in Middletown and the local area. 4. The executive management lost confidence in city government The biggest reasons were convenience for executive management and no income taxes again for executive management. I know many AK corporate people and don't know any who live in West Chester. Pollution had about ZERO to do with it. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 10 2014 at 10:54am
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Ahhh, Trotwood,
how I love the minds of young people. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 10 2014 at 11:08am
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Trotwood: "As proof, I'll ask - how many employees who work at AK and can afford to live outside Middletown choose to do so?" I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBERS OF AK EMPLOYEES LIVING OUTSIDE THE CITY BUT I CAN GUESS WHY THEY WOULD CHOOSE TO DO SO. I KNOW YOU ARE REFERENCING POLLUTION HERE AS THE REASON WHY AK EMPLOYEES WHO CAN AFFORD TO LIVE ELSEWHERE CHOOSE TO DO SO. HOWEVER, IMO, IF A SIZABLE NUMBER OF AK EMPLOYEES CHOOSE TO LIVE OUTSIDE MIDDLETOWN, IT HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH POLLUTION AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE POOR SCHOOLS, VERY FEW ENTICING NEIGHBORHOODS REMAINING, HIGH CRIME, POOR IMAGE, POCKETS OF GHETTO DEVELOPMENT, AND OVERALL GLOOMY MALAISE/INEPT OPERATION WITHIN THE CITY. IMO, POLLUTION PROBABLY WOULDN'T EVEN MAKE THE TOP TEN LIST OF REASONS TO NOT LOCATE TO MIDDLETOWN. I BELIEVE YOU ARE GIVNG THIS POLLUTION THING WAY TOO MUCH CREDIT AS THE CITY CULPRIT FOR TURNOFFS REGARDING THIS CITY. Trotwood: "Want more proof? AK's HQ is now in West Chester, and one of the big reasons is because West Chester is closer to where AK's actual corporate employees live. It's also considered to be a more "desirable" community. I would assume the lack of pollution is a factor in this assumption" YOU ARE CORRECT ON THIS. BOTH AK AND THERMO BLACK CLAWSON (I WORKED FOR THEM AT THE TIME), ANOTHER LONGTIME MIDDLETOWN INDUSTRIAL INSTITUTION, BOTH LEFT MIDDLETOWN FOR A SIMILAR REASON........THEY WERE CONCERNED WITH COMPANY IMAGE. NEITHER WANTED TO BRING IN CUSTOMERS TO THE MIDDLETOWN ENVIRONMENT. BLACK CLAWSON MOVED THEIR OFFICES TO MASON-MONTGOMERY RD.....MUCH MORE MODERN AND DESIRABLE AS TO IMAGE AND PROFESSIONALISM. SAME WITH AK TO WEST CHESTER. UPSCALE BEATS GHETTO SCOURGE ANYTIME AS TO IMPRESSING CUSTOMERS. AGAIN. YOU CAN THANK YOUR MIDDLETOWN CITY LEADERS OVER THE LAST 3 DECADES FOR THE DEMISE OF THE BUSINESS CLIMATE HERE IN TOWN. THEY SAT BACK AND LET IT HAPPEN WHILE HAVING A WINDOW SEAT TO OBSERVE THE COLLAPSE. INEPTNESS RUNNING THE ASYLUM. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 10 2014 at 11:09am
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Processor
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 10 2014 at 3:33pm
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AK Steel left Middletown as a top priority because the strike at the Middletown Works was such, they did not want to tether their corporate identity and reputation to a city getting such bad press, and a site getting bad press associated with a labor dispute. The other reasons cited are correct. AK knew years prior to many, what direction Middletown was headed----south, they wished to head north in reputation. TROTWOOD, if Middletown had no success in the years prior to the current effort in building downtown, ergo, the years it had a city mall with a roof, the years the roof was removed, why do you state it is important now? The city decline in population began 15 years ago, when the city was in its phased approach to build downtown a 2nd or 3rd time.. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Dec 10 2014 at 4:25pm
Income tax my guess was one of the biggest reasons. I remember Dickie Wardrop suing the city of Middletown on what he was required to pay because he was trying to claim days worked outside of Middletown (at other plants, offices, suppliers) should not have been included in calculating wages in which to levy the city's income tax against. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 10 2014 at 4:43pm
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The problem on local tax as a basis for a move would be it would only amount to a material benefit if the city he/she lives, did not claim a tax rate. If one did not reside in West Chester, you'd pay your locale taxes, if they were required. I believe Indian Hills does have local taxes. As Middletown has taxes, those that work in West Chester still pay the 1.75%. Therefore, taxes were a distant reason IMO. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Dec 11 2014 at 1:22pm
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Income taxes were one of the MAIN reasons. Indian Hill has a .6% tax versus 1.75% in Middletown. On $3,000,000 it's a difference of nearly $35,000. Some of the exec's live in a township where there is no tax. This is one thing that really bugged me about the AK HQ move. I'm convinced that a lot of the reason for moving was for the exec's convenience and not necessarily for the good of the business. I'm also told though that the upper management was encouraged not to live in Middletown so that they wouldn't get to know personally many of the people at the plant and this way wouldn't let emotions get in the way of business decisions. I don't subscribe to this philosophy but know many who do. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 11 2014 at 1:54pm
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I don't disagree any manager or employer would not want to take advantage of West Chester's dual 0 tax rate for payroll and residential living. But, Kurt Reich, who arguably is the no 2 exec as EVP of supply chain, procurement, lived in Middletown for years in the historic house in what is now the Highlands area and Nix is head of process innovation, and lives in town. Taxes contributed, but was not driver, reputation was, and ability to bring in new talent (younger management- engineers), that wanted better tax base and white collar base. IBM also pushed for move associated with ease of attracting high tech employees for the older employees they brought over from Armco when they began outsource deal.
------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 11 2014 at 2:02pm
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Processor I have heard executives remark that they were ashamed to bring visitors or clients to the Main Office because of the over all run down condition of They joked about needing to flying them in under the cover of darkness. |
Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Dec 11 2014 at 2:32pm
| No doubt that the miserable condition of Middletown contributed to the move. That was #2 on my list. |
Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Feb 15 2015 at 8:36pm
Better late than never, right? Sorry about the reply delay. I'll make a few points: Processor, you bring up excellent points. These are all probably true, not formally provable but I think we all could agree they would merit consideration if we sat on AK's Board of Directors. And this feeds into a larger discussion, one I think is summarized well by Fortune Magazine in these articles: http://fortune.com/2014/07/07/taxes-offshore-dodge/ http://fortune.com/2014/08/28/is-burger-kings-move-to-canada-a-raw-deal-for-u-s-taxpayers/ Or even by NCR's departure from Dayton, chronicled by the NY Times here: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/25/us/25land.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 Again, a discussion way outside the scope of a Santa Claus parade/ bringing life back into Middletown OH.
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Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Feb 15 2015 at 8:50pm
You have a good point.... building a better city requires having people who are invested in its future and are willing to put in the work to see it succeed. Poor/struggling people have neither the time nor the energy to do this. Or worse yet, these people actively demoralize the character of a city by committing illegal actions and being hostile towards others, etc. There's a million different ways to basically say that people who can afford to live away from undesirables will. But keep in mind that I say people who can AFFORD to live away from undesirables will. Who can afford to? People like yourselves, honestly - older, established or retired Baby Boomers (or even Greatest Generation members...) that have had their career. Millennials don't have any of those luxuries. We can barely get loans or jobs that pay above minimum wage even if we have technical training, or an associate's degree, or a bachelor's/master's in liberal arts. Even some entry-level engineering positions only pay $35-$40k a year. Labor no longer has the value it used to even 20 years ago. So where is labor in demand? $9/hr STNA's. Minimum wage Foodservice workers. $10/hr Hourly distribution center employees. And so on. Millennials don't have the money for suburbia. So where will they come? Places with more amenities, more community, more connectivity. Because why buy when you can rent? Middletown can pull off a transformation, most everything is in place. The biggest issue I see is AK, which yeah you all poke fun at me for but ask any Realtor or city planning consultant and they would tell you the same. There's a reason why Hamilton's urban movement is gaining traction in ways Middletown's isn't. And no I would place the blame on city government on this one.
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Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Feb 15 2015 at 8:58pm
I agree, for many pollution isn't consciously considered when moving to a location. But let me turn it around - would YOU, if someone tomorrow gave you $500k for your house and you accepted the offer, turn around and buy a new house that met the requirements for your $500k dream home, right next to Mt. Rumpke in Colerain? Pollution is an issue that should not be discounted. Sure, maybe if you live in the northeast end of Middletown it wouldn't be as big of a deal, but all of these "trouble spots" - the Section 8 apartments around Leffferson and Briel, the trailer parks around Excello, the neighborhood surrounding the former Amanda and Oneida Elementary schools of Oxford State Rd. - those sure as heck don't have high-dollar housing. Or a high property value, standing as houses or demolished for another use. If Middletown is going to turn around, ALL of it is going to have to turn around.
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Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Feb 15 2015 at 9:05pm
Demographic changes. Wealth changes. Mindset changes. Pre-recession, this economy was being fueled in large part by a seemingly endless demand for new housing. Obviously those days are over. Not only are people not buying new houses, they are actively wanting to decrease their responsibilities by buying smaller houses. Why? Partly because there's a lot less middle class wealth, and people cannot afford to buy as much as before. See my response to Vivian. Also, partly because of demographic changes. The newest generation coming up the ranks, the Millennials, is by far the most racially diverse generation ever seen in the US. Non-white individuals overwhelmingly prefer to live in urban environments. And often non-white individuals lack the capital and desire to buy new houses in platted developments. They are looking for community in a traditional neighborhood. So Acclaro, if done right, Middletown could become the desirable place to live once again. It's all a matter of putting in the right amenities, the right atmosphere, and the right incentives in place to get private businesses to do their part. School reform is necessary too, at least to be on par with Hamilton schools (which are doing quite well at the moment). It can happen with the right leadership and the right strategy.
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