True Costs Of the MCSC School Levy
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Schools
Forum Name: School Board
Forum Description: Discuss the board individually and as a group.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5692
Printed Date: Nov 27 2024 at 6:51am
Topic: True Costs Of the MCSC School Levy
Posted By: Dean
Subject: True Costs Of the MCSC School Levy
Date Posted: Apr 19 2014 at 1:56pm
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Ms. Andrew, I apologize for my dialatory response to your question regarding swimming pools and Oxford location. Although I did swim competitively in college, we would have been more likely to have bumped into one another when I swam in New Jersey as a Tiger on a pretty good P team, where one my fomer team members, about 10 years older, was Dave Voorhis, class of 69 I recall. Or, maybe when I was working out at the Highland Park Swim Club, but not at the Oxford Y. The odds were more favorable we would have passed each other in an Ephs lane, or Tiger, than a Y pool. I grew up in Lake Forest, right above Winnetka. Olson is a favorite Cincinnati 'W' guy, but no aqua-lunger. I thought we met at the Farmer School at a Board meeting, but it may have been someone from Fairfield's BOE. The butterfly was my stroke. To the levy. I would feel much better although I don't like the concept of rehiring, or bringing back retirees, if Gene Saylor put his stamp behind the Phase 2, and for that matter, Phase 1 numbers, than the folks brought in from Monroe, a district which broke away from Middletown at the same time Phase 1 was getting ready to be funded. I also do not like the funny numbers used to move this along. The backend use of a state match, without indicating what the taxpayer is truly paying. Here's what a collegue of mine ran: Phae 1 and Phae 2 combined, True Cost to Taxpayer Own a House Value COST TO PAYER 100,000 300. ANNUAL 125,000 375 ANNUAL 150,000 450 ANNUAL 175,000 525 ANNUAL 200,000 600. ANNUAL 250,000 750. ANNUAL 300,000 900 ANNUAL 350,000 1050 ANNUAL 400,000 1200. ANNUAL This is the cost daily of a cup of coffee.....if you are hitting Starbucks up for Quad caramel lattes about 10 times daily. |
Replies:
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Apr 19 2014 at 5:01pm
| Dean: my calculator is old, but I think it still works. I assume you were saying that at $1,200 year, the cost would equal 10 high-priced Starbucks a day. $1,200/year divided by 365 equals $3.29 a day---perhaps one latte per day. just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 21 2014 at 10:35am
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Dean, I don't know Gene Saylor. I will assume from your comment that he was good at his job and you trusted him. George Long is MCSD's current business manager. Although he does split his time (and pay) between Middletown and Monroe, we did not bring him in from Monroe. His last position was as business manager/HR manager at Springboro School District, where he supervised a school construction project. He has overseen the efforts of the architects hired by MIddletown and the Ohio School Facilities Commission to estimate the costs of the various options for middle school/high school project. I am assuming that you did not participate in/attend any of the meetings of the Middletown Facilities Commission or its open forums in which they described the different alternatives and their respective costs and asked for community input. If you have questions, why not call him and ask to sit down and have him talk you through it, and answer your questions? As to Phase I, the business manager for most of that time period was Frank Chapman, and then Milt Thompson. Phase I project was completed on time, within budget, and employed a very large percentage of local contractors. I cannot comment on the accuracy of your estimates of the tax assessment for the combined bonds for both Phase I and Phase II, because I don't know the tax per $100,000 of the Phase I bond. The Phase I bonds are already in place and show up on everyone's tax bills each year, so they are no secret. I would just note that there are very very few houses in Middletown with a tax valuation of $300,000 or $400,000.
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Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Apr 21 2014 at 11:38am
| Mrs. Andrew: as you know, all of the facilities' committee's information had been available on the MCSD's website. Perhaps Aflatkey/others would benefit by reading all of the pertinent information in those reports. I don't think it is currently available (on the site). Would you know how they could retrieve it? The information had the entire process that the committee went through. (Sorry Acclaro, for the sentence ending in a preposition). just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 21 2014 at 1:25pm
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chmoore1, the building PPT'S were put out on the website quite some time ago, I read every page. It was a high level, macro presentation that was countered by many architects and building (construction) project managers as being inflated and not offering an apple to apple comparison. I recall the feedback was akin to a math equation having the answer, and the presentation spent on a rudimentary justification. Fairly easy to formulate numbers giving desired effect. I believe "through" as used, would be an adverb, as it is used as a form of action. I would prefer "undertook", or initiated. But, my iPad misses the soft-keys so we won't worry about command of the English language. So sorry you had "guard duty" this weekend chm1, what a bummer over the holiday. I haven't reviewed Dean's numbers, but I believe they are low, but close. Phase 1 was about $60 MM, with 100 % of residential and businesses paying it, and Phase 2 is $55 MM, so in your head, easy to extrapolate the cost. BUT, it is not the figures your committee has been listing inaccurately. For a $59,000 house valuation, it would be $177.00 annualized. As opposed to taking out $1,486,486. MM annualized, over 37 years, with a sum of $55,000,000., imagine taxpayer how much cash would come into the economy locally without $1.48 MM per year spent on buildings having no impact upon learning. Lakota had an excellent weekend article associated with online instruction and effectiveness of teaching foreign languages online. Brick and mortar is a bad investment. Don't take out approximately $1.5 MM annually, from the local economy. for the next 37 years. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Iron Man
Date Posted: Apr 21 2014 at 1:27pm
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 21 2014 at 2:20pm
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Ms. Andrew, the original plan of the BOE was a project that would be a
total amount of $118,000,000. How did 118 MM become 156 MM? Most would call that scope creep on a project, but I will assume it will be called "higher construction costs over time" by the BOE. Also, if the rule of thumb is correct, which is a levy generates about 3x actually construction costs, the true cost with interest over time, is nearly > $ 450,000,000. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Apr 21 2014 at 2:42pm
| Acclaro: did I have "guard duty" this past weekend? Missed it, if I did. What was I "guarding"? It seems that the first phase was around $77 million, so the second phase wouldn't have been only $41 million (118 minus 77----41). Also, not "my committee." The 156 must include the state's portion---around 41 million. Please let me know when it's my turn in the barrel for guard duty, and, especially, what I'm supposed to guard. just 1chmoore |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 21 2014 at 2:55pm
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156 MM x .26- 40.56 MM 156 MM - 41 MM- 115 MM Same numbers. About a 7.5-8 mil cumulative levy (Phase 1, 2) Glad you aren't on the votemiddies.com team chm1. Guarding the truth : D Amortized pain---brilliant strategy. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Apr 21 2014 at 3:28pm
| You can't just add the principle amount of phase 1 and 2 and assume that the additional millage is proportional. The "payments" for phase 1 were accelerated so that there will be little additional cost for phase 2. The accelerated payments for phase 1 will be eliminated and a more standard bond payment plan will be implemented for the two phases together to keep the millage from increasing too much. I don't have the numbers handy, but the additional property tax may very well equate to one Starbucks coffee per day. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 21 2014 at 3:44pm
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processor, albeit accelerated or not, the cost would be as was indicated, or a close. Phase 1 was not matched, hence, we have principle costs, which now appears to be heavily front-end loaded (using the acceleration you refer), but I understand your point. But, if you look at LFI, the chasm/ variance, between Phase 1 and Phase 2 is negligible; about $ 5 Mm. On the top end (300-400 KK property value), paying about a Wildwood membership annually, .4 % Brown's Run, and about 1.6 of membership at Forest Hills---annually. ROI has to be there; pretty high numbers. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Apr 21 2014 at 4:15pm
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Acclao: you state: "Glad you aren't on the votemiddies.com team chm1." How do you know for certain that I'm NOT? just 1chmoore 
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 21 2014 at 4:55pm
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chm1;" Also, not "my committee." Reference to votemiddies.com NOT your committee? Levity, know you support the 'Starbucks' tax. Spirited debate, nothing personal. Heck, I'd like to see the monthly fee per day broken into CPM (Cost Per Minute). .29 cents an hour. .005 cents a minute. In other words, lets squeeze that number where it vanishes.  ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 6:28am
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processor: "but the additional property tax may very well equate to one Starbucks coffee per day" MIGHT BE HARD TO COME UP WITH FOR A COMMUNITY THAT CAN ONLY AFFORD A SPEEDWAY 99 CENT COFFEE PROCESSOR. THINK IN TERMS OF A POOR COMMUNITY, CREATED BY THE SCHOOL BOARD BUDDIES DOWN AT THE CITY BUILDING. YOU MAY BE ABLE TO AFFORD THAT ONE STARBUCKS AT KROGER. MANY PROPERTY OWNERS ARE TAPPED OUT, ON BUDGETS AND CAN ONLY BUY THE "GOOD VALUE" COFFEE AT WAL-MART. 10/4? ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 9:54am
| chmoore, the school district website was re-designed last year. We are looking to re-post in one place all of the documents from the Facilities Committee. In the meantime, one could go to the Board Docs page and search "master facilities" and a number of presentations to the board pop up. However, this only goes back to I think 2010 when we started using the Board Docs software. It won't show the process prior to that. |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 10:00am
| Acclaro, you ask why the project increased from $118 million to $156 million. It did not. When the district entered into the ELPP in 2004, the total master facilities plan project budget was $156 million, to be completed in two roughly equal phases. I don't know where you are pulling the $118 million number from. |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 10:11am
| Several posters keep stating, as if it is a fact, that the middle school building is in the shape it is in because the district has supposedly not spent any money on maintenance and repair of the building since the last "major renovation" of the building 50+ years ago. I asked our treasurer to pull information from the district's records as to amounts spent on repairs and maintenance at the middle school. Over the last 7 years (the time period available on the financial system) the district has spent over $100,000 per year on average on maintenance and repairs of the middle school. This does not include the time of salaried maintenance workers (before we outsourced maintenance to Sodexho 2 years ago) or the portion of the Sodexho contract attributable to the middle school (much routine maintenance or small repairs are done within the contractual payment to Sodexho). This is during a time period when the district has been deferring major repairs or replacements on the middle school once the master plan anticipated that the building would be replaced as part of phase two. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 10:16am
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Ms. Andrew; I am attempting to paint a historic evolution of the school levy, Phases 1-2. In 2001, as posted elsewhere, this was directly out of the Cincinnati Enquirer. My question was, how did 118 MM become 156 MM, and why? This project was approved by Ohio Facilities Commission for 118 MM when it began prior to negotiation. processor....I have been wrestling with your statement made yesterday on accelerated payments for Phase 1. I assume the Butler Cty Board of Elections archive previous ballot languages, but did the ballot state that was an accelerated payment, and by how many years was it accelerated? Or did the BOE make increased principle payments over time? I don't recall the reference made to the voters the levy was accelerated to lower the costs to Phase 2, but was perplexed by your statement yesterday. _____________ 2001 March Cincinnati Enquirer 'The board voted 4-0 Tuesday to cancel the 4.1-mill combination issue that would have provided a $30 million bond issue, and a permanent improvement levy that would raise $18.5 million over 10 years. The money was to have been used in a $71 million plan that called for renovating and repairing all the schools in the district over several years. In a March 9 meeting with school officials, the commission unveiled a $118 million proposal that calls for the closing of all elementary schools except Amanda. Those 11 schools would be replaced with five new buildings under the state's plan, said Edmund Pokora, treasurer for Middletown schools. Founded in 1997, the commission provides funds for districts to make repairs to schools or rebuild them based on a formula that takes into consideration residents' income, enrollment and property values. Under the formula, Middletown would be eligible for money in 2009-2011. “Their plan is more expensive and takes away neighborhood schools,” said board member John Venturella. “It closes some buildings and consolidates others.” ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 11:33am
Attention Voters....we have to take commercial break from one of our sponsors:Valentine's Day DinnerFebruary 14th, 2014, 5:00 p.m. - 7:00 p.m. Ms. Andrew; respectfully, you have made the case for the opposition, by stating very little maintenance was done after Phase 1, conveniently, teeing up Phase 2 replacement----"why bother with maintenance, we are getting a new car!" Also, this project was visioned by a BOA that did not want new buildings. The Ohio Facilities Commission authorizes alterations for any capital expenditures weighing new build vs renovation of old, above 66% of outlay. Movement to the east end is the driver, maintenance costs just along for the "ride." When considering the numbers leaving the middle school years and returning, they are very nominal when considering the capital outlay. The voters should vote this down in my opinion, and wait until MCSD sees improvement and in all probability, has a better state match than .26%, in my opinion. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 12:14pm
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Ms. Andrew: "Several posters keep stating, as if it is a fact, that the middle school building is in the shape it is in because the district has supposedly not spent any money on maintenance and repair of the building since the last "major renovation" of the building 50+ years ago" THAT COVERS THE MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR ASPECT OF THE CONVERSATION. NOW, YOU NEED TO DISCUSS THE MONIES SET ASIDE TO PERFORM "PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE" AS WE HAVE OFFERED. Preventive maintenance (PM) has the following meanings: 1.The care and servicing by personnel for the purpose of maintaining equipment and facilities in satisfactory operating condition by providing for systematic inspection, detection, and correction of incipient failures either before they occur or before they develop into major defects. 2.Maintenance, including tests, measurements, adjustments, and parts replacement, performed specifically to prevent faults from occurring YOU MENTION WORK AFTER THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE..... PLEASE TELL US IF THIS PROGRAM WAS IN PLACE OVER THE LAST 50 YEARS TO PREVENT MAJOR ISSUES. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 1:06pm
| Vet, maintenance and repair includes preventive maintenance. Repair is fixing something that has broken, maintenance is routine care and prevention, like oil and gas changes and tire alignments for your car. Both have been done. |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 1:12pm
| Acclaro, the article you copied from 2001 answers your own question. It is from 2001, several years before the Phase 1 levy was presented to and approved by the public based on a $156 million total master plan cost. The article says that the OSFC -- not the BOE -- proposed a $118 million plan, which the BOE did not like because it called for larger centralized schools, not neighborhood elementaries, which community surveys indicated Middletown wanted. There was obviously negotiation and revisions to the master plan between 2001 and 2004 when it was approved by the BOE, the OSFC and the Middletown voters. |
Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 1:37pm
| Acclaro, I don't remember all of the details regarding the higher initial bond payments and I don't know where to go to get the details, but in concept it was like two different bond issues. The largest one for full term and the bulk of the cost. The second one for 5 years, or so, for a smaller portion of the total cost. Since the second bond issue was a much shorter term the payments were higher than they would have been with a longer term. This "second" short term bond issue will go away and the new bonds for phase two will be at the max term allowed thus not adding much to the millage and to the yearly cost for property owners. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 3:04pm
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Thank you both for your responses. This negative trend is concerning, as well as the stability of AKS and a merger in the future associated with $ 55 MM and 40% that don't fund the buildings. As Ms. Andrew correctly stated, ther aren't too many 300,000 and above houses in the city. Both the middle school and high school were rated in bottom 3% in the state. Source- www. usa.com House ValueMedian Value of a Total of 11,753 Owner Occupied Houses in Middletown City School District, http://www.usa.com/rank/ohio-state--house-median-value--school-district-rank.htm?hl=Middletown+City+School+District&hlst=OH&yr=6000" rel="nofollow - #459
Median House Price Growth Since 2005-2009, http://www.usa.com/rank/ohio-state--median-house-price-growth-rate--school-district-rank.htm?hl=Middletown+City+School+District&hlst=OH&yr=6000" rel="nofollow - see rank
*The Middletown City School District median house price growth rate is since 2005-2009. The Ohio and U.S population growth rate is since 2000. Ranks: http://www.usa.com/rank/ohio-state--percentage-of-houses-with-a-value-of-50k-or-less--school-district-rank.htm?hl=Middletown+City+School+District&hlst=OH&yr=6000" rel="nofollow - $50K or Less , http://www.usa.com/rank/ohio-state--percentage-of-houses-with-a-value-of-50k-100k--school-district-rank.htm?hl=Middletown+City+School+District&hlst=OH&yr=6000" rel="nofollow - $50-100K , http://www.usa.com/rank/ohio-state--percentage-of-houses-with-a-value-of-100k-150k--school-district-rank.htm?hl=Middletown+City+School+District&hlst=OH&yr=6000" rel="nofollow - $100-150K , http://www.usa.com/rank/ohio-state--percentage-of-houses-with-a-value-of-150k-200k--school-district-rank.htm?hl=Middletown+City+School+District&hlst=OH&yr=6000" rel="nofollow - $150-200K , http://www.usa.com/rank/ohio-state--percentage-of-houses-with-a-value-of-200k-300k--school-district-rank.htm?hl=Middletown+City+School+District&hlst=OH&yr=6000" rel="nofollow - $200-300K , http://www.usa.com/rank/ohio-state--percentage-of-houses-with-a-value-of-300k-500k--school-district-rank.htm?hl=Middletown+City+School+District&hlst=OH&yr=6000" rel="nofollow - $300-500K , http://www.usa.com/rank/ohio-state--percentage-of-houses-with-a-value-of-500k-1m--school-district-rank.htm?hl=Middletown+City+School+District&hlst=OH&yr=6000" rel="nofollow - $500-1M , http://www.usa.com/rank/ohio-state--percentage-of-houses-with-a-value-of-1m-or-more--school-district-rank.htm?hl=Middletown+City+School+District&hlst=OH&yr=6000" rel="nofollow - $1M or More *Based on 2008-2012 data. View http://www.usa.com/school-district-3904440-housing--historical-house-value-data.htm" rel="nofollow - historical house value data . Housing Occupancy
*Based on 2010 data. View http://www.usa.com/school-district-3904440-housing--historical-housing-occupancy-data.htm" rel="nofollow - historical housing occupancy data . ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 3:10pm
NOPE. MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR DO NOT INCLUDE PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE. MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR HAPPEN AS A RESULT OF HAVING NO PM. (PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE) IF ONE WATCHES AND TENDS TO THE MACHINE (BUILDING IN THIS CASE) AS TIME GOES BY, PM IS DESIGNED TO LESSEN THE IMPACT AND COST OF MAJOR REPAIRS. Ms. Andrew, I will use a very simple analogy so that you may understand the difference between routine maintenance/repair and PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE.. YOU AND I OWN HOMES. THE HOMES HAVE A LAWN. THE LAWN REQUIRES WATER, FERTILIZER, WEED AND INSECT CONTROL AND CORE AERATION TO STAY ALIVE AND FLOURISH DURING THE GROWING SEASON/SUMMER MONTHS. IF YOU DO NOT SPEND THE MONEY ON A HIGHER WATER BILL IN SUMMER MONTHS, DO NOT INVEST IN SCOTTS HALTS FOR CRABGRASS, TURF BUILDER PLUS TWO FOR WEED CONTROL, SUMMERIZER FOR FERTILIZER AND INSECT CONTROL AND WINTERIZER FOR THE FALL, YOU MAY LOSE YOUR ENTIRE LAWN AND INVEST AN EVEN GREATER SUM OF MONEY RE-ESTABLISHING YOUR LAWN. YOU MUST SPEND MONEY TO PROTECT YOUR INVESTMENT AND TO PREVENT AN EVEN BIGGER CATASTROPHY...IE- LOSING THE ENTIRE LAWN.....OR BUILDING. SAME WITH VAIL. IF YOU DIDN'T SET UP, IN YOUR BUILDING BUDGET, A SUM OF MONEY TO TACKLE THE THINGS NECESSARY TO PREVENT SOMETHING MORE SERIOUS FROM HAPPENING TO THE BUILDING EACH YEAR OVER THE 50 YEARS WE ARE DISCUSSING, YOU INCURED LARGE REPAIR BILLS WHEN THE PROBLEMS CAME TO A POINT OF NO RETURN. IT IS WHAT FACTORIES USE TO KEEP THEIR MACHINES ON LINE AND RUNNING TO MEET PRODUCTION SCHEDULES. BEATS THE HECK OUT OF A MACHINE SITTING IDLE FOR WEEKS/MONTHS WAITING FOR AN EXPENSIVE REPAIR BILL TO BRING IT BACK ON LINE. AGAIN, WAS THERE A PM PROGRAM SET UP DURING THIS 50 YEAR PERIOD, KNOWING THE BUILDING WAS IN A SITUATION OF REQUIRING MORE ATTENTION AND WAS THERE A SPECIFIC FUND SET UP IN THE BUDGET FOR PM? IS THERE ONE NOW FOR ALL SCHOOL BUILDINGS OR IS THE PLAN JUST TO LET THEM FALL APART, TENDING TO THE MAINTENANCE ASPECT WHEN THE SITUATION BECOMES CRITICAL?...THEN ASK THE TAXPAYER TO BUY YOU A NEW BUILDING LIKE YOU'RE DOING NOW AND WITH THE ELEMENTARIES YEARS AGO? ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Marcia Andrew wrote:Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 4:19pm
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I believe Ms. Andrew indicated the lack of maintenance caused the school district to reach into funds set aside for repairs which are reaching an "exhaustive" state per Mr. Ison. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 8:43pm
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Marcia Andrew and fellow blogers pro and anti bond / levy Marcia Andrew has stated that the
OSFC is a reputable and accountable arm of our school funding system. http://www.clevelandchallenger.com/arkansas-man-behind-clintons-1992-black-son-scandal-silenced/" rel="nofollow - http://www.clevelandchallenger.com/arkansas-man-behind-clintons-1992-black-son-scandal-silenced/ state auditors failed to audit the Ohio School Facilities Commission. Why? Ohio's biggest Republican names will tumble like dominoes if the Ohio School Facilities Commission is ever audited and investigated It is an Ohio law that every unit of government must be audited no less than once every two years. The state auditor doesn’t have the option of performing the duty. State senators and state representatives passed laws saying they must do it. If a state auditor doesn’t audit or cause every unit of government to be audited no less than every two years, Ohio’s revised code calls their failure to perform the duty … dereliction. It’s a criminal offense. The penalty doesn’t carry jail time, although it can if added to other offenses. What it does is expose a politician or bureaucrat’s incompetence in performing the lawful duties of the jobs they hold. Derelict public officials and employees forfeit the job and can’t run or serve anymore. It’s a pretty good law when it’s consistently enforced. The problem is finding an example of a politician of bureaucrat of any party who has been charged, prosecuted and convicted for “dereliction of duty.” So the only state elected official who a Republican state auditor "special audited" as ex-Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell by Mary Taylor. So the only state elected official who a Republican state auditor “special audited” was ex-Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell by Mary Taylor. Yeah right! So let’s talk about the Ohio School Facilities Commission (OSFC) that has never been audited by any state auditor since its inception in 1997. That’s four state auditors since 1997: Jim Petro, Betty Montgomery, Mary Taylor and now David Yost. Yost is still within the time frame required to ensure that the OSFC is audited under his watch, but the clock is ticking. The OSFC was originally funded with $2.3 billion in 1997. It’s no secret that ex-Governor George Voinovich’s handpicked executive director, Randall Fischer, personally awarded 1700 contracts totally $1.8 billion without public bidding or commission approval. Compare the donors to Voinovich’s campaigns to the 1700 companies getting contracts from Fischer and the game they were playing becomes obvious. It’s why the 16 year lack of an audit trail is so glaring. Montgomery can’t claim she didn’t know Fischer violated laws at least 1700 times. She was the attorney general and the OSFC’s lawyer when Fischer’s misdeeds were exposed in the Monarch Construction v. Ohio School Facilities Commission 2002 decision. Montgomery was supposed to represent the interests of the citizens of Ohio after the agency was sued for the wrong Fischer had done. There’s no way for Montgomery not to know Fischer was violating public spending laws before she became the state auditor in 2003 after Petro replaced her as attorney general. The case was heard in ex-Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner’s court when she was a Franklin County common pleas judge. Read what Brunner said in the decision she ruled against Montgomery’s defense of Fischer and the OSFC’s equally derelict board members. “Nearly $2 billion of public money have been distributed through more than 1,700 contracts for the construction and renovation of schools throughout the state of Ohio, not one of which has been approved by a vote of the commission. The final word on all of these contracts has lain with one individual, who is not a public officer, has not taken an oath of office, nor is bonded. The public education of the state’s children, an essential government function, is threatened by the unbridled discretion unlawfully placed in the hands of one person, Randall Fischer. This is unconscionable. The court finds as a matter of law that OSFC has not only unlawfully approved the rejection of Monarch, it has abused its discretion in so doing.” Montgomery should have screamed to high heaven about Fischer’s 1700 crimes to any official who would listen, especially to the general assembly. As attorney general she should have reviewed every illegal contract Fischer handed out and reported back to the state’s citizens. She also should have blasted Petro for his dereliction in not auditing the agency that employed Fischer. Once Montgomery replaced Petro as state auditor in 2003, she should have minimally performed the required two bi-annual audits of the agency during her four term in office. But since Montgomery had first hand knowledge of Fischer’s crimes, she should have conducted a special audit and forwarded the results to the Franklin County Prosecutor. The same applies to Taylor, who’s now lieutenant governor. Neither of the two politicians audited or special audited the OSFC. Taylor did, however, conduct a special audit of J. Kenneth Blackwell’s “office” as secretary of state after he lost for governor in 2006. In fact, Blackwell has been the only state official to receive a special audit. We wonder why. OSFC employees and the agency’s commission members have spent an unscrutinized $13 billion since its inception. It’s understandable why Petro and Montgomery were silent as attorney generals since they would have exposed each other’s dereliction as state auditors. But their decision to cover for each other doesn’t negate the fact that a complete, thorough and retroactive audit of the OSFC is long overdue. The fact that it hasn’t happened is proof by itself of their dereliction and of Taylor’s. Only in politics do officials who fail to perform the duties of their elected offices get to hide their shortcomings behind fancy commercials and get promoted. State officials appear to have gone out of their way not to audit an agency that’s handled $13 billion since 1997. We think it’s because they know the cookie crumbs will lead to jail time for the party’s biggest names. A complete audit will expose such widespread corruption the cast of characters it exposes will make what happened in Cuyahoga County look like petty theft. Yost seems to be catching up on the backlog of audits his political party mates left him. Even this writer’s 2006 through 2009 audits as East Cleveland’s mayor were finally performed six years later in 2012, and nearly three years after he left office. East Cleveland’s previous financial audit was in 2001. That’s 11 years without an audit for a city being in fiscal emergency under the auditor’s supervision for 18 years. If Yost doesn’t audit the OSFC twice within his term of office, he’ll be the fourth derelict state auditor not to review how and who received $13 billion to work on Ohio schools. Real and not “bull____” accountability demands that Governor John Kasich immediately order an intensive audit of the OSFC and let the chips fall where they may on who is held accountable. Another indiscretion by OSFC http://www.ohioconstitution.org/2010/10/18/ohio-rico-complaint-filed-to-stop-school-construction-corruption/" rel="nofollow - http://www.ohioconstitution.org/2010/10/18/ohio-rico-complaint-filed-to-stop-school-construction-corruption/ Ohio RICO Complaint Filed to Stop School Construction Corruption October 18, 2010 1851 Center Lawsuit alleges Strickland administration and OSFC placed union financial interests and remaining in office above fiscal responsibility in building schools. COLUMBUS – Tax dollars have been wasted and continue to be at risk due to an unlawfully cozy relationship between the Strickland administration and labor unions, claim a group of Mansfield-area taxpayers. The residents today filed an Ohio Corrupt Activities Act complaint against Gov. Ted Strickland, Ohio School Facilities Commission (OSFC) Executive Director Richard Murray, the Laborers’ International Union of North America (LIUNA) and others. The suit will demonstrate members of the Strickland administration, organized labor, and Murray used the OSFC and school building construction contracts to engage in pattern of corrupt activities expressly prohibited under Ohio’s RICO laws. Click on the above link to read the whole story. Another indiscretion by OSFC http://thetruthaboutplas.com/2010/06/30/columbus-dispatch-examines-value-of-plas-osfc-director-loosens-corrupt-grip-on-ohio-schools/" rel="nofollow - http://thetruthaboutplas.com/2010/06/30/columbus-dispatch-examines-value-of-plas-osfc-director-loosens-corrupt-grip-on-ohio-schools/ Columbus Dispatch Examines Value of PLAs, OSFC Director Loosens Corrupt Grip on Ohio Schools 1 June 30, 2010 School Construction, State & Local Construction With Ohio Gov. Ted Strickland’s appointed director of the Ohio School Facilities Commission (OSFC), former Big Labor boss Richard Murray, under investigation for pushing school districts to use union-favoring project labor agreements (PLAs) as a condition of receiving funding from the OSFC, the media stands ready scrutinize these corrupt and wasteful agreements. Click on above link to read the whole story Marcia Andrew has stated that in her view I was irrational and incoherent with my post on the blog. Lets review the definitions, Irrational adjective 1. not logical or reasonable. reason / Reason is the capacity for consciously making sense of things, applying logic, for establishing and verifying facts, and changing or justifying practices, institutions, and beliefs based on new or existing information. synonyms: unreasonable, illogical, groundless, baseless, unfounded, unjustifiable; absurd, ridiculous, ludicrous, preposterous, silly, foolish, senseless incoherent adjective not able to talk or express yourself in a clear way that can be easily understood not logical or well-organized : not easy to understand 1:lacking coherence: as 2:lacking cohesion : loose 3:lacking orderly continuity, arrangement, or relevance : inconsistent 4:lacking normal clarity or intelligibility in speech or thought
In my view I hardly think that I’m Irrational. It is only rational thinking that gave our forefathers the idea that you could not have equal taxation with out equal representation. Taxing the land owners for the benefit of all taxpayers is discrimination. In my view I hardly think I’m incoherent. I have written and copy’d and pasted many opinions that state clearly and have simple language that gives a specific fact based opinion that land based tax in unconstitutional. Its your duty as well as the governments constitutional duty to “provide for a thorough and efficient system of common schools" common denotes that the school in Indian hills should be a carbon copy of the school in middletown. They are not because people like y the pro levy / bond lobby continue to violate our constitutional freedoms by propagating a illegal form of funding schools. Tha above paragraph shows that I have continuity in thought , that there is in fact logic to the argument as detailed by the supreme court in 1997. Threw out your country's history it has always been the case that one citizen or resident starts the process of renewed justice for all. It's is in many cases it's a life's work. Just look at the life of Martin Luther King. What do you represent as a upright, compassionate, benevolent resident or citizen ? I urge you to consider that looking the other way as the status quo indoctrinates discrimination as a form of legal taxation, that the unraveling of your own community will continue as social injustice will be the norm with no one standing up for constitutional principals and freedoms. And additionally with the favoritism used by OSFC in its distribution of state tax funds I suggest that all taxpayers land owners or not should reconsider the continued abuse of educational funds for the prosperity of the few. Do you as a tax payers want the continued abuse of your hard earned tax dollars to empower special interest groups that are selected by your politicians to receive the contracts for your institutions ? The above items along with other opinions that I have posted are relevant to the ideal that the current bureaucracy is tainted in many ways besides the fact that it dose not “provide for a thorough and efficient system of common schools funded by the state threw contributions from all tax payers, not just tax paying land owners.
Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as
Brevity is the soul of wit and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946) ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 8:44pm
|
fellow blogers, The Westerville effort marks the inaugural action of the 1851 Center in assisting taxpayers in using a previously obscure section of the Ohio Revised Code to lower their school district tax burdens, while forcing Ohio school districts to control spending and reign in labor costs rather than raising taxes. this is only the beginning of what citizen taxpayers can do with in the law to raise awareness that school funding threw property tax is unconstitutional. it is only rational thinking that gave our forefathers the idea that you could not have equal taxation with out equal representation. the current bureaucracy is tainted in many ways besides the fact that it dose not “provide for a thorough and efficient system of common schools funded by the state threw contributions from all tax payers, not just tax paying land owners. DeRolph
v. State was a landmark case in Ohio
constitutional law in which the Ohio Supreme Court ruled that the state's
method for funding public education was unconstitutional. Handed down on March
24, 1997, the 4-3 opinion said that the state funding system "fails
to provide for a thorough and efficient system of common schools"
as required by the Ohio Constitution and directed the state to find a remedy.
Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as
Brevity is the soul of wit and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946) ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 8:45pm
|
Charter school advocate wants to strip requirement for public schools from Ohio Constitution http://www.ohio.com/news/charter-school-advocate-wants-to-strip-requirement-for-public-schools-from-ohio-constitution-1.480752" rel="nofollow - http://www.ohio.com/news/charter-school-advocate-wants-to-strip-requirement-for-public-schools-from-ohio-constitution-1.480752 Published: April 14, 2014 - 10:50 PM | Updated: April 15, 2014 - 10:57 AM COLUMBUS: The phrase in the Ohio Constitution that requires the state to provide an adequate system of public schools would be stricken from the document if the head of a constitutional modernization subcommittee has his way. Chairman Chad Readler, a Columbus attorney who leads the Constitutional Modernization Commission’s schools and local government committee, wants to remove the phrase “thorough and efficient” from Article VI of the Constitution. Justice Francis E. Sweeney Sr., who wrote the majority opinion, scolded the legislature by calling for a “systematic overhaul” of public education, citing examples of unsafe buildings and poor academic programming in some districts while many suburban districts enjoyed great wealth. “Today, Ohio stands at a crossroads,” he wrote. “We must decide whether the promise of providing to our youth a free, public elementary and secondary education in a ‘thorough and efficient system’ has been fulfilled. The importance of this case cannot be overestimated.” If in fact our legislators are considering changing the system of public schools in our state, we need not invest any tax collected moneys until they have made a final decision. Click on above link to read the whole story
Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as
Brevity is the soul of wit and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946) ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 8:49pm
|
fellow bloggers Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as
Brevity is the soul of wit and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946) ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 22 2014 at 9:54pm
|
Ms. Andrew, I want to thank you for graciously investing time associated with the levy debate. While I disagree this is a 'once in a lifetime' opportunity for the matching grant at 26% as the new line forms if it fails, you have been an honest broker with information. I am stepping out of the fray and letting constitutional theory debate take over. I can handle Adam Smith and Milton Freidman on economics, but I am slightly overwhelmed with tea party purists to add much more to the debate associated with constitutional issues associated with property taxation. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 8:09am
|
acclaro, while i don't know you personaly , i do get a chuckle that ya all moved to a different location on the blog roster. I am definatly not a tea party separatist. How ever I cant understand why my opinions are so inflammatory to some. In true fairness to the tax paying citizen and resident I cannot understand why it is not logical for all to agree as our forefathers established the principal of equal taxation with equal representation. that principal should be the primary objective for all to consider. you need to be aware that if they do actually change the constitution as suggested all public schools would be privatized . why would tax payers want to invest 97 million in to the district when a private for profit propriotorship would reap the profits from the institution? Charter school advocate wants to strip requirement for public schools from Ohio Constitution http://www.ohio.com/news/charter-school-advocate-wants-to-strip-requirement-for-public-schools-from-ohio-constitution-1.480752" rel="nofollow - http://www.ohio.com/news/charter-school-advocate-wants-to-strip-requirement-for-public-schools-from-ohio-constitution-1.480752 Published: April 14, 2014 - 10:50 PM | Updated: April 15, 2014 - 10:57 AM the charter school lobby while not the strongest in the state dose have considerable favor in some districts, in fact there is one in the middletown district. As the health care system try's to repair itself from the laws that might not make it the singular cash cow it has been for 30 years , investors might well lobby for the privatization of public schools as a form of consistent investment return as vouchers will be part of the profit margin they can count on on a regular basis for investors. might sound crazy to some but the propagation of wealth in a economy where interest rates are almost dead low lead to the fact that the rich might be happy with a growth of 5 % consistently with out fear of the bottom dropping out. ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 8:48am
|
Inflammatory, no. Repetitive, yes.
------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 8:53am
|
aflatkey.... Been said before on this forum as well as other publications..... all the studies, all the reports, all the articles, all the research information, all the quoting, all the self-righteous talk, all the protesting we do here and is done elsewhere, ALL THE FACTS, will do no good if we, the people, be it local, state or nation-wide, just read, just listen and just watch, as our local, state and fed leaders do as they please, break the laws, have back room secretive meetings, fail to involve the people, keep it within the club boundaries, take kick-backs from behind the scenes sponsors, play the little political games they play, and GET THEIR WAY ALL OF THE TIME WITHOUT THE SLIGHTEST HINT OF RESISTANCE FROM THE PEOPLE, it will never change. And that's been a big problem in this city for decades. The people are mad as hell, but they won't get off their rears to do anything about it. TV and laying on the couch take precedent over organizing and storming the city building and council meetings to tell them what WE THE PEOPLE WANT rather than have them call the shots all the time. HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU GET THE PEOPLE OF THIS CITY TO PARTICIPATE AGAINST THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE LEADERS? ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 9:52am
| Well. VV I guess if we keep the pressure on council to do the right thing like the Bank One deal maybe the "leaders" will see just how corrupt some of the people at "Donham Abby" can be when they try to pull the wool over our eyes.When you shine the light in the dark the rats begin to scurry. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 10:33am
|
AKS is ripe for a take-over, and that would be catastrophic for MCSD and Butler County. Low interest rates, low stock valuation; X, are you watching and looking for a buy? Ms. Andrew should be city manager; keep day job at Taft and do both. She'd be excellent. A judge in the future perhaps.
http://quotes.wsj.com/AKS/financials/annual/income-statement" rel="nofollow - Income StatementNet Income
http://quotes.wsj.com/AKS/financials/annual/balance-sheet" rel="nofollow - Balance SheetTotal Assets
http://quotes.wsj.com/AKS/financials/annual/cash-flow" rel="nofollow - Cash FlowNet Operating Cash Flow
http://quotes.wsj.com/AKS/research-ratings" rel="nofollow - Quarterly Earnings and Estimates
Per Share Data
------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 10:34am
|
Acclaro, you write: "I believe Ms. Andrew indicated the lack of maintenance caused the school district to reach into funds set aside for repairs which are reaching an "exhaustive" state per Mr. Ison." I don't recall writing that. It is not true. I have repeatedly stated that the district has spent money on both maintenance and repair. There has only been a separate fund for repairs for 2-3 years, when the district designated .24 mils for capital improvements, and it provides less than $200,000 per year. The district spends more than $200,000 per year on average (I don't presently have a number as to how much more) on maintenance and repair when including ALL school buildings. Speaking only for the past 8 years during which I have been on the board, because I do not have personal knowledge as to earlier time periods, the district has done the best it can with the money it has available to maintain and repair its buildings. Mostly the money for this comes out of general fund operating dollars and competes for balance against the need to pay teachers and other staff and utilities and books. There is never enough money to do everything we would like. I am also not participating in the constitutional debate. In my view, it is fairly irrelevant, as the people in Columbus with the power to change school funding will not be moved by any "protest" no vote on the Middletown school bond levy. The only result it will have is to kill the solution that has been proposed by a community committee, the State and the BOE to address the facilities needs of the middle school and high school. Reducing the burden on local property owners to fund local schools will logically require increasing taxes on some other group or groups (who to some degree are also property owners), and there is no political will to tackle the issue.
|
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 10:56am
|
"I have repeatedly stated that the district has spent money on both maintenance and repair. There has only been a separate fund for repairs for 2-3 years, when the district designated .24 mils for capital improvements, and it provides less than $200,000 per year. The district spends more than $200,000 per year on average (I don't presently have a number as to how much more) on maintenance and repair when including ALL school buildings. Speaking only for the past 8 years during which I have been on the board, because I do not have personal knowledge as to earlier time periods, the district has done the best it can with the money it has available to maintain and repair its buildings" SO, WE HAVE ENOUGH REASON TO ASK THE VOTERS TO BUY US A NEW SCHOOL, BUT AFTER THE SCHOOL (S) IS (ARE) BUILT, WE DON'T BUDGET TO ALLOW TAKING CARE OF THEM IN THE PROPER FASHION. THE THINKING OF THE SCHOOL BOARD AND ALL OF THEIR SUPPORTERS.... 1. MY SCHOOL IS WORN OUT 2. VOTER/PROPERTY OWNER, BUY ME A NEW ONE WITH ALL THE BELLS AND WHISTLES 3. THANK YOU FOR APPROVING THIS LEVY AND BUYING ME A NEW SCHOOL 4. AT BUDGET TIME,WHILE THE SCHOOL IS NEW AND THE SITUATION IS UNDER CONTROL, I WILL BYPASS SETTING UP A PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE PROGRAM TO ADDRESS MAJOR PROBLEMS BEFORE THEY OCCUR AND WON'T CONSIDER APPROPRIATING ANY MONEY IN MY BUDGET FOR SUCH A PROGRAM 5. VOTER/PROPERTY OWNER, AS THE YEARS HAVE GONE BY, MY NEW SCHOOL IS STARTING TO FALL APART AND IS BECOMING A MONEY DRAIN BECAUSE I DIDN'T PLAN EARLY ON TO HAVE A MAINTENANCE PROGRAM IN PLACE TO PREVENT MAJOR DETERIORATION 6. MY SCHOOL IS WORN OUT 7. VOTER.PROPERTY OWNER, BUY ME A NEW SCHOOL A NICELY CONCOCTED CIRCLE OF FUTILITY LAYED ON THE TAXPAYER. AND SO IT IS....ALWAYS IN YOUR WALLET ASKING FOR THINGS YOU CAN'T AFFORD.....BUT THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT. THEY JUST WANT THEIR NEW SCHOOL. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 11:55am
|
Vet, your post does not accurately state what has occurred. I have addressed that elsewhere and won't repeat. But I am happy to hear that you will be the first and most vocal supporter of a new operating levy to pay for the most thorough, all-inclusive, proactive "Cadillac" level preventive maintenance and repair of all school buildings. The bond issue on the ballot actually includes a permanent improvement levy piece. |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 12:34pm
| Mrs. Andrew: I apologize for all of the requests that you get about the schools. Two questions, if you can answer without much research: (1) weren't there a number of "permanent improvement" levies voted down through the '70s, '80s and '90s? and (2) doesn't the OSFC require that money is set aside each year for upkeep on the new buildings? Thank you for your dedication. just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 1:33pm
|
Ms. Andrew, you are absolutely correct, you did not state there was a lapse in maintenance that would be absorbed by repairs. Although styled incorrectly, I was attempting to help explain as I understood it to be, an accounting mechanism which was eating more into repair funding, which I recall is what Mr. Ison had stated. This has been a good and productive exchange over the course of a year. Objectively, we know the following. When this initiative began, the BOE, which Ms. Andrew was not sitting at the time, desired to pursue renovating schools. There was an allocation the BOE had in mind, of approximately $ 71 MM. The state of Ohio, through Ohio Facilities Commission, felt it better value to build new schools, and had the formula if renovation was greater than 66% of a new school, it was mandated (bothersome paperwork, enhanced justification), to build new schools and to follow the state guidelines, which also meant taking advantages of the grant. Therefore, one cannot fault the school board then, nor now, for following the path laid forth by the state on new buildings when in fact, the BOE wanted to renovate them. Once the process began, known as the Master Plan, it is difficult to deviate. If Vail would be renovated, made into a shell, and redone, but same locale, re-model/ make-over the home (analogy), the state would be would have to approve a petition or request to do so, based upon expected time and delays. So...one cannot reasonably blame the BOE for adhering to the state's policy. The state advocate new buildings based upon the 66% calculation. Furthermore, it would be logical to minimize preventative care, based upon a Master Plan built on state guidelines starting as far back as the early 2000 period, although maintenance and repairs would be done and were, expecting a new middle school to supplant the old. Reasonable enough to comprehend. Fast forward to the present, and the choice is to move forward, build, take state's 26%, or it fails, and MCSD falls back in line as a LAPSED school. In time, the state will recalculate a % Middletown would be entitled to receive. In fact, there are several districts and BOE's, that decide to punt from receipt of the state match, and do it their way. Simply stated, they pass on the match funding from the Facility Commission. With these facts and background, I concur while not guaranteeing enrollment increases, nor performance, moving the middle school to a centralized site may have advantages. If private boosters had raised the funding for much of the LFI associated with sports, this would be an easy YES vote. As vouchers are being passed around to shop private schools to parents and students, providing choice, there are a number of serious issues facing the district. Inclusive in performance is the fact teacher numbers have declined, while teachers assistants have risen is MCSD. Will that effect performance? Maybe. A hard road ahead, all concur with this fact. Many states have been found to be unconstitutional regarding school funding, and the same reasons as was Ohio. These include Pennsylvania, Texas, Kansas, and others. This problem won't be addressed in Columbus, as property valuation will always be a form of school funding, with state funding, and federal. It is not an ideal situation Middletown has nearly 45% renters attending MCSD that pay nothing in funding, change will not occur soon, if ever. One could argue K-12 should be privatized, school buildings leased, teachers outsourced, districts mass consolidated. But, it will be decades before such re-engineering efforts take place, as the unions are strong, the system in place, and resistance too steep. As for history and renovation, while understandable to do so, you cannot blame this on the BOE. The state chartered the course, the BOE was mandated to follow, or at least to do so, to receive 26%. Forget about Middletown being a destination point; too much talking points coming from the neighbors at Donham. Moving the school near the high school can best be supported and sold by Ms. Andrew's point; it may uplift property values from the old hospital area (Highlands), east (my view), and may slow attrition in the middle school years. And maybe....a few parents will move to Middletown. The winner was the model of Kalamazzoo Promise, that some folks in Donham Abbey and the BOE, in my opinion, should be chasing Coates and Kasich around Columbus, and DOE, to make an initial Proof of Concept, to fund in Middletown. That is a 'plant it, and they will come," initiative. http://www.kalamazoopromise.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.kalamazoopromise.com/ ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 1:54pm
|
SLAY THE BEAST !! ( public education ) while you say it wont move the people in columbus to protest vote your bond / levy , there is a movement to privatize public education. http://www.ohio.com/news/charter-school-advocate-wants-to-strip-requirement-for-public-schools-from-ohio-constitution-1.480752" rel="nofollow - http://www.ohio.com/news/charter-school-advocate-wants-to-strip-requirement-for-public-schools-from-ohio-constitution-1.480752 To only get .50 value out of every dollar spent threw the implementation of public school fund distribution by the OSFC with no oversight or audit or fair bidding process is like condoning a heroin addict in there abuse of themselves and providing funds for their eventual death. I say send the OSFC to rehab were they can learn how to be fair in bidding and learn how to be accountable to the auditor of the governments choosing, and to vote as a coalition not let one man implement his will. For the OSFC to continue favoritism is like writing a blank check to the contractors that they prefer threw relationships with our politicians. thease claims are factual as stated in the newspaper postings i have contributed to this blog. Denial is not a river in Egypt ,its your unwillingness to accept reality. SLAY THE BEAST !! STATE WIDE !! AND MAKE OUR POLITICIANS LEGISLATE A FAIR , MODERN , EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM WITH EQUAL OPPORTUNITY FOR ALL DISTRICTS IN THE FUNDING PROCESS. START NOW, OR CONTINUE TO THROW MONEY IN THE TOILET. DON'T WORRY THE GOVERNMENT CONTRACTOR HAS A CATCH BASIN AT THE END OF THE SEWER PIPE !!! LOL !! Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as
Brevity is the soul of wit and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946)
aflatkey
------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 2:58pm
SORRY MS. ANDREW. COUNT ME OUT ON SUPPORTING YOUR SCHOOLS. NO VALUE ADDED FROM MY 80% CONTRIBUTION ON THE OLD PROPERTY TAX BILL. NO REASON TO INVEST IN THE SCHOOLS, AS THEY ARE NOW AND HAVE BEEN FOR DECADES. DO WITH WHAT YOU HAVE UNTIL YOU SHOW SOME CHANGE FOR THE BETTER FOR THE INVESTORS. BAD STOCK IN THE PORTFOLIO. TIME TO PURGE AND CUT THE DAMAGE DONE. THE SCHOOLS ARE WHAT THEY ARE RIGHT NOW AND NO AMOUNT OF MAKE-UP WILL MAKE THE UGLY TOLERABLE TO LOOK AT. THE SCORES, THE INDICATORS, THE DECADES IN MALAISE.... ALL WRAPPED UP IN NICE NEW BUILDINGS, MAKING NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL FOR THE MILLIONS SPENT FOR THEM. YOU SEE THE SCHOOLS AS "IF WE JUST KEEP DOING THE THINGS (NEW SCHOOLS) THAT WE THINK ARE IMPORTANT TO MAKE IT BETTER, IT WILL EVENTUALLY GET BETTER"- WHEN WE STILL DON'T KNOW. I SEE THE SCHOOLS AS "WE, THE VOTERS, HAVE ALREADY TOLERATED THE POOR RESULTS AFTER GIVING THE SCHOOL PEOPLE EMERGENCY LEVY MONEY, OPERATING LEVY MONEY, BOND LEVY MONEY, PERMANENT LEVY MONEY, "JUST ONE TIME" LEVY MONEY, ETC, ETC. OVER SEVERAL DECADES AND HAVE NOT SEEN ANY VALUED RETURN FOR OUR MONEY TO DATE. HOW MANY DECADES WILL IT TAKE TO MOVE THE INDICATOR AND PROFICIENCY NUMBERS OUT OF THE DANGER ZONE? HOW MANY EXCUSES WILL WE HEAR ALONG THE WAY AS TO WHY IT CONTINUALLY IS NOT ACCOMPLISHED? TIRED OF THE COMPLACENCY. TIRED OF THROWING GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD. IT IS A BLACK HOLE WHERE USEFUL MONEY GOES FOR NAUGHT. JUST WONDER WHY THERE ARE STILL BELIEVERS IN THIS SYSTEM GIVEN THE FACT THAT THE PERFORMANCE HAS BEEN DISMAL FOR DECADES. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY ANYONE WOULD LOOK AT WHAT WE HAVE GIVEN THE SCHOOLS, SEEN THE RESULTS AND COME UP WITH YET ANOTHER REASON WHY WE SHOULD CONTINUE TO DONATE MONEY TO THE CAUSE. GOOD THING THE SITUATION INVOLVES THE SCHOOLS. IF IT WERE A COMPANY, IT WOULD HAVE GONE OUT OF BUSINESS A LONG TIME AGO. ALOT OF MONEY SPENT, HIGH OVERHEAD, WASTED TIME OBTAINING AN ACCEPTABLE PRODUCT THAT IS APPEALING AND BELOW PAR END RESULTS. JMO ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 5:24pm
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chm1; I cannot answer your question directed to Ms. Andrew regarding previous levies and maintenance under ORC 3318.052 off the top of my head, but believe under the statutes under 3318 either at the time of the levy or a year thereafter, perhaps at the same period, maintenance funds must be included and approved. I recall and am doing this entirely from memory, the ballot language on May 6, includes a .25 mil for maintenance for Phase 2.
------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 5:39pm
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.26 mils, for permanent improvements to high school, not maintenance. Perhaps a % is captured in the 4 mils for new build. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 6:26pm
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chmoore (and acclaro)-- I can't answer the first question (way before my time!). As to number 2, yes, the OSFC requires as a condition to getting the state money that the district shows it has at least .5 mil of dedicated permanent improvement levy. As I mentioned in a previous post, a few years ago we dedicated .24 mils of existing millage for that purpose (a strange amount yes, but that was all that was within our authority to do). So, the bond issue on the ballot includes .26 of permanent improvement levy, so that together with what we already have, we would have the half mil required by OSFC. That is why it is combined as one issue to vote on -- if we don't pass the .26 mil permanent improvement AND the 4 mils for $55 million, the state doesn't pay its $40 million. And, frankly, it is hard to believe there are many people who would agree to 4 mils for the new buildings but vote no on the .26 to maintain them. Acclaro, the "Middletown Promise" concept failed for lack of private donors. I have been informed that there is a grassroots effort afoot to revive the idea using a different model that would require less up-front capital. We shall see.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 6:28pm
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aflatkey....this is how its done correctly. You can't be serious .5 for each dollar from OSFC goes to administration, the Red Cross is about 9%. Maybe for the next levies coming soon. http://www.educateua.org/" rel="nofollow - http://www.educateua.org/ ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 7:44pm
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what i said was To only get .50 value out of every dollar spent threw the implementation of public school fund distribution by the OSFC with no oversight or audit or fair bidding process is like condoning a heroin addict in there abuse of themselves and providing funds for their eventual death. i did not mean it cost .5 cents to administrate the fund on the dollar by OSFC. I meant that 50 cents out of every dollar goes to the contractors profit margin and there association with politicians donating to their re election like the In other words correlate the donations by contractors to politicians election or re election campaigns and then see what contractors got preference on billions of dollars of work that the OSFC dictates that local districts must adhere to if they want the matching funds. Another way to look at it is I don’t want my land tax moneys administered by the OSFC to a contractor to help re elect any politician in recompense of receiving contracts for public school construction. i think that is why they filed the RICO law suit against OSFC. I know that i am not the authority on these kind of things and am willing to endure correction. what you will not be able to correct is the association of politicians with the contractors and the billions of dollars that has never been audited by representative or senate appointed auditor. hope to hear from you soon. Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as
Brevity is the soul of wit and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946) ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 23 2014 at 7:48pm
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Thank you Ms. Andrew; it would help kick-start Middletown with the "Promise." Maybe there is a hook with the private equity firm that funds HEP and their initiatives. Some creative "crowd-funding" maybe. Your input has allowed this analysis to go far deeper than it would otherwise while also gaining a better appreciation of the challenges in running a school board. It is also clear there have been real, tangible cuts and oversight, fiduciary in particular, since you became a member and President. The location around the high school is actually quite appealing with a centralized campus concept. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Richard Saunders
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 3:16am
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Mr. acclaro: I think that I must dispute portions of your 1:33 pm post. The Verity building could, indeed, be rehabbed within the OSFC guidelines, and with a new addition could easily handle the student load required. The acreage owned by the MCSD at the Verity site far exceeds the need for middle school requirements (including any and all athletic facilities). Further, either rehabbing the existing structure (along with an addition) or razing the present Verity structure and building a completely new middle school would be cheaper by far than the proposal that is currently in front of the voters. The real fact of the matter is that, like the present Vail location, the Verity location is unacceptable to the school administration shot-callers because of the "neighborhood". I am saddened to say that it is that simple.
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Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 8:17am
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Richard Saunders , if what you said "The real fact of the matter is that, like the present Vail location, the
Verity location is unacceptable to the school administration
shot-callers because of the "neighborhood" is correct that particular view by the school board goes against the revitalization of down town middletown. We all know what a hot topic re vitalization of down town is. there are many who rally behind the idea and many who think it is fruitless. Consider this have you supported the new UDF downtown by getting gas or ice cream ? Do you think it has improved part of the down town area ? For the school board to think, if in fact it is true they can by statistical analysis desert poor residential areas of the district they serve just because of the quote "view of the surrounding blight" shows a discriminatory practice in my view. They should in fact get on board and consider spending, if approved, tax dollars collected to help revitalize a community that is a serious consideration for the redevelopment of improved neighborhoods in down town middletown. For them to abandon a neighborhood is proof alone that not all the powers of city government are on the same page in efforts to revitalize down town. if they abandon the neighborhood and merely say "we can bus that population to the new location" it reflects a intolerance by the school board of the basic reality's of economic and social demographics in our society. To think that there is no one that can see the idea that the school board is willing to educate the poor on the good side of town but not in a impoverished neighborhood is to selectively abandon the support of poor neighborhoods. Part of revitalization of any community would be to reinvest in the schools in that geographic location. They did it down on RT 4 a few years ago. if you travel out of town , south on route 4 you see a new helath center and a new school right in the middle of a middle class and poor neighborhood. this random philosophy by the school board if true is not in the better interest of the redevelopment of the down town district of middletown. so !!! Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as
Brevity is the soul of wit and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946)
------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 10:03am
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Richard Saunders, to be fair, and in the spirit of debate, as Ms. Andrew has been open, candid, honest, and factual, it is only reasonable to factually acknowledge her points, and the BOE, as she has the alternative view. That is what I indicated in my mini synopsis. I have great admiration for Ms. Andrew, and she is one of few people who will debate respectfully and factually. To spin on either side, isn't debate, its an argument, and that's a fool's play. I don't disagree with what you said, and indeed, stated the same in many posts. The statute under 3318 does allow renovation. My point, stepping in the shoes of Ms. Andrew, was the school board would have to put forth a laborious justification when a new school cost in comparison to a renovation, which if one fairly reads the costs for renovation, is > than 66% of the new build. By ORC 3318, the BOE, as Ms. Andrew stated, would have to write a compelling brief/ report, associated with the cost difference. Are renovation costs lower? Probably; but the point made and to objectively consider is the OSFC follows the statutes, the MCSD also is required to follow 3318, and must, to get any form of state assistance. For that matter, if they did not want 26% of the state funding, they could have renovated or maintained Vail, and had every right to do so, minus 26% from the state. As for the movement of Vail, lets also be fair and impartial to have a balanced debate. When Vail was built, 99.99% of students lived about 3/4 miles or less south on Main, and around the old hospital, and east up to Aberdeen. In fact, most of the east end of Middletown wasn't built nor developed until after 1960 from Milton, Rosedale intersecting Redbud, nor Breihel including Manchester. Vail would not be an ideal location for the % of homeowners living now in Middletown, and arguably the area around the high school would be central. One can't use the walking, mule, bike, or trolley distance from Vail to the mass of population when the school in contrast today, based upon the considerable expansion geographically, both north, and east, since the original construction. Therefore, when considering the current central point of students, and also the valuation of property, and ease to the highway; there are students that do commute through open enrollment, Ms. Andrew has presented a compelling argument associated with placement of the school and reasoning associated with building a new school. And that is, the state mandates new build when renovation is 66% of greater. Clearly, one couldn't say the movement to a eastern location was biased nor intended to discriminate associated with early 1900 demogarphics of population versus the present. aflatkey- I don't disagree with your point there is waste, margins, and politics associated with school buildings, interstate projects, healthcare, nor any corruption, politics, and power play associated with a group, entity, union, body, organization, has power of the purse. But, the state statute under 3318 requires competitive bidding, and most architects, construction companies, consultants, et al, are profit entities, not non profits. I have used many times, UNC Chapel Hill, working with McKinsey, as an example of effective process re-engineering to drive costs down. If there is waste in the machine, it can easily be exposed, but you need an organization like Texas has to put pressure on everyone involved, to peel back the onion for transparency, and to reduce costs. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 11:26am
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acclaro: Within the framework of the last few posts, you seem to be traveling a new path, one of sponsorship for Ms. Andrew and her new building team supporters. Are you now agreeing with the pro-levy people and have joined their team of yes voters? Getting mixed signals from you now as opposed to the outset of this discussion. You seem now, to be on the endorsement road at this point......and that would be disappointing, given that, at one time, you championed the tax oppressed portion of this community. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 12:25pm
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Mr. Saunders, in my post, I neglected to adequately respond to your point on Verity, and skewed it towards Vail; my apologies. I cannot disagree with your point on Verity being newer, and placed geographically in an area that had construction buildup post 1950. I assume your point was Verity had renovation costs < 66% vs. new, which would seem logical, as it is much newer than Vail. The consolidation would seem to have merit associated with a centralized approach, without inflicting too much pain on those serviced by the present location. I understand your point regarding "the neighborhood", but that would suggest Reverend Tyus, in particular, would support moving the building, and Vail, to areas with higher income----unlikely, in my opinion. And from a marketing vantage, there is a case to be made of the advantages of having the schools there, with MUM across the street. It is a valid selling point, to have the middle school, Miller Ridge, the elementary school right of Rosedale, and high school, in a location so convenient to a regional campus. Parents have Jill or Johnnie going to a public school, attend the two year regional college economically, live at home, save $100,000., and then transfer to Middleberry, Brown, Penn, etc. Now, to Vet. Yes, I respect and think highly of Ms. Andrew as a straight- shooter, not an empty suit, nor nebulous dreamer. She has been clear regarding the school's problems, has stated there are no guarantees, and laid forth why the levy has followed its path, accurately, factually, and honestly. No one knows anymore than she, MCSD has an imbalance number of lower income students, a decline in enrollment, nor the drop out numbers are high. She has acknowledged such. And, she has made valid, well supported points. In fact, she openly stated her viewpoint was that by building new buildings and passing the levy, the likelihood, with no guarantees, would be more parents would move into Middletown, less students would leave through the middle school age period (6-8), which in itself, was better than the outcome of an aged number of buildings creating a situation which only serves to worsen a rather dire situation. That's a fair position, and one reasonable to agree. My position on the levy is it should fail, but only so, based upon the following. I believe the decline in enrollment in the middle schools is associated with violence, or fear thereof, lack of discipline, and not associated with Vail, as indicated by others, location and a survey of parents as a basis for moving a student. I do not think Middletown will climb out of the continuous improvement rating for years. I also do not believe a school building does anything to stimulate performance, or at in this district's position, to leap frog from CI to Excellent. But, the main reason I would not support the levy is purely economic. This is not a " once in a "lifetime" opportunity MCSD gets to receive a matching contribution from the state. In fact, I think just the opposite. As the formulation for the OSFC is based upon a three average tax base, I would expect the match to be greater than 40% in a matter of 3-5 years, far better than 26%, and also give the district additional time to move results at least to a solid midpoint on the report card. The voter should keep in mind the OFSC only came about or about 1997. Middletown received a 26% match in the early stages of the program. It locked in under contract. The districts post 2006, are getting/ got, far better state allocations, than 26%. Also, when looking at tax base, MiCSD is richer than 66% of the Ohio districts, while performing at a level below 97% of districts. Something is wrong, and with these considerations, awaiting a few more years to gain a better state match, better academic ratings, is logical and sound. I also think it unwise to take $1.5 MM out of the local economy when Middletown as a whole is in nuclear melt-down, to spend $165 MM in buildings. The school board and city leadership are intertwined, and if the Titantic goes down, they both ride the ship down, as do the residents, and businesses. I respect and understand why many would support the levy based upon the state mandate with new buildings, and a desire to "minimize the bleeding", as well as one that would vote no, and await a higher state match, and better results. Either was, whatever happens on May 6, I see it having benefit. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 1:27pm
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Acclaro, Saunders -- I appreciate your statements. I understand that reasonable people can hold different viewpoints and opinions on the issue; my goal in posting on this site has always been to provide factual information and correct misunderstandings or misstatements of fact. My intent is not to try to force people to see things my way. Every now and then I may stray from facts to opinion but I try to clearly differentiate between the two. Reasonable people can disagree as to the best solution to deal with the Vail building. Whether to renovate or replace; where to locate the middle school; the scope of locally funded options. I have tried to explain that the school district had a process for identifying, evaluating, discussing and ranking all options and that we made that process as inclusive as we could. We invited any one interested to be on the facilities committee or attend its meetings and forums. Heck, even Mr. Presta joined the committee! (ha ha, no offense Mr. Presta, we definitely appreciated your time and input -- my point is this shows we were not excluding people who would not agree with some pre-ordained outcome). Mr. Presta commented on here about his participation in the committee process a year and a half ago or so when it wrapped up its re-evaluation of the the master plan. My recollection is that, while he was disappointed that more people on the committee did not share his views or his emphasis on minimizing the price tag, he felt he was given time to state his thoughts. The people on the facilities committee and the people who attended the open forums ranked the various alternatives, and the top 3 were brought to the BOE for consideration. Originally the Verity property had been chosen as the site for a new high school. Then, when input from the community indicated they wanted to keep the current high school at the high school and renovate it, Verity was chosen as the site for a new middle school. The BOE approved that plan. Then, there was a public outcry against that location for a middle school. This led the facilities committee to re-evaluate again, and find a way that a new middle school could be built on the same campus as the high school, and the majority of people were happy with that solution. (btw, the cost to renovate Verity would be 80% of cost of building a new building the size of Verity, and we need a middle school double the size of Verity). So, we had a process to discuss alternatives. It was long and drawn out with many opportunities for input. The time to say you want a different alternative has passed. We can only put one option on the ballot. There has also been some misunderstandings about what would happen if the bond issue does pass in May. A planning process would start, with another chance for the community to provide input on the functionality, materials, layout, etc. to be included in the buildings. Then the architects would draw up detailed plans and specifications. Then the work would be put out to public bid. The winning bidders would enter contracts with the Middletown BOE (the work is not awarded by the state OSFC). For the Phase I elementary buildings, the BOE made every effort to encourage and assist local companies to bid, so as much of the investment could be kept in the community. Then the building/renovations would begin. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 3:05pm
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Ms. Andrew, as this will be my last post associated with the levy, as there is nothing more of import I can interject of meaning, I want to thank you again for your service and ability to uplift the debate associated with the levy. If you endeavor to pursue options within the political realm outside the BOE, including the state, county, or region, I'd be privileged to lend support. If there was a box to check on May 6, that said: "I vote YES because I believe in Marcia Andrew, that box would be checked with unquestionable support. Your presence and participation in Middletown has made it a better place, and your viewpoints have probably moved the "on the fence" voter in the YES column, and if so, it is well earned. Ms. Andrew works for one of the finest law firms in Ohio, if not most prestigious. She attended two of the top schools academically in the nation, and most competitive to gain admittance. Private schools would be a natural option and choice for children within such a family, but she has been an excellent champion, and believer, in public education. She knows as do many, getting the school rating up is critical for the district and city as a whole. If there was an example of a meaningful virtual town-hall session, it has occurred. Whatever is the outcome May 6, after spirited and useful exchange of information, and debate, I can live with the outcome and feel positive either way. Many thanks for sparking hope, there is light around the bend. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 3:45pm
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very nice and quaint, the replies you have provided fellow blogers, Just as a reference for all ya all, if you ever felt like I was disrespectful to any of ya all , it was not intentional. It was collateral damage threw a healthy exchange of controversial ideas and opinions. I personally felt disrespected because ya all's pro levy wanted to tax me till my own death. I know all we have forward to look for is death and taxes , but really do we have to put it to a vote if we want to be taxed or not till death with one more levy / bond issue ?? have you watched that Chris Rock movie where he runs for president / he keeps on saying THAT AINT RIGHT !! SECURITY !!! Since many in society have had a epiphany as they grow older and ether want to contribute to the legacy of society or want to stop the purging that society puts on them economically you can see why a seast and desist attitude would grow threw the tax base as people just cant afford anymore contributions to the status quo. its not weather modern enmities, perfect geographic location, implementation of technologies in are schools are needed . It's when do you give your tax payers a brake as they have provided for the community for EVER as far as I can remember. I get it folks , i'm ok with paying land tax to pay for operations of the schools. I just am not ok with building them, back in the day that was always the states job. 100% you don’t buy a car and then rent it from your self. paying operating expense threw tax in my view is like renting the car. the state is like avis or hertz they own the schools / I uderstand the local districts do their local admin / with out the state they would not exists. So consider a alternate approach stop all funding, privatize the whole thing, if your state representatives or senators still believe in education provide a set voucher for all the districts children to use if they qualify and raise the moneys for the vouchers threw new legislation that provides equal taxation with equal representation. This opinion will not set well with many , but in fact it will stream line the waste and favoritism. As you know private colleges and other like educational institutions do not lack for cash or enrolment . profit and tenure by professors set the legacy for each institution. Let corporate Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as
Brevity is the soul of wit and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946) ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 4:14pm
First, I would like to echo Acclaro's sentiments regarding your willingness to join us here, field the questions, take the occasional verbal punch, and add to the discussion. You are to be commended for doing so. More public officials should do so, whether here or in some other public forum (if another were available where free and open discussion was possible). Now, to address the first of the two paragraphs that I have quoted above: Yes, even though I was on the committee, I did feel that I was in a minority. This is not to say that the committee was purposefully "stacked" as I have no way of knowing who else, or how many others, might have been invited and declined. (I was asked by Mr. Fiora to be a member.) Also, there was some misunderstanding about how the "voting" on the options was to be "weighted". One of the options that would've included a less expensive option using the Verity property very narrowly missed the "final cut". From my post-vote discussions with some of the other committee members, had we all understood the "weighting" of the votes prior to voting, at least one of the Verity options would likely have been included in the three options presented to the Board of Education (BoE). Regarding the second paragraph quoted above: To address the last sentence first, I would dispute the OPINION that renovating Verity as part of a new middle school would cost 80% of a new building that size. The information given the committee was that no formal inspection of the Verity building (with an eye towards renovation) was done! The consultant stated that the Verity building "MAY NOT" fit with what the BoE wants regarding configuration without extensive rework. My OPINION is that the structure could be renovated for 60% or less than building new equivalent square footage. (As you like to point out, we are dealing with OPINIONS, and not FACTS here, and I have not inspected the facility either; but my opinion is worth as much as theirs as I have over thirty years' experience in the engineering and construction industries.) More importantly regarding these two paragraphs and the "voting": While we did not take an "Oath of Office" to join the committee, I am familiar with that Oath, with basically says public officials must try to get the most bang for the public buck. The selection of "alternatives" to present to the BoE should NOT have been a popularity contest, at least not in my opinion. I cannot recall the exact figures (I have them here somewhere within the many stacks of papers that my wife wants me to toss) but two options using the Verity property were significantly less expensive than the options presented to the board,by well over $10 million dollars!!! If I recall correctly, one using a renovated Verity building with a substantial addition and the other razing the existing Verity structure and building all new facilities. Both left more than enough property for all of the athletic facilities required and plenty of acreage left over. It was (and still is) my very humble opinion that, as with all public officials, the BoE has a DUTY to at least consider the most economical solution that will provide an adequate outcome...and the committee should have provided the BoE with that choice!!! And who knows--a few hundred more voters might have checked the "YES" box last November if only it would've cost them a few fewer pizzas!!!  ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 4:25pm
By the way, just for the sake of full disclosure, I actually agree--in principal--with Aflatkey!!!  I just don't see how it can be done in time for Middletown to meet our own needs. Having said that, It is my sincere belief that we should proceed in a manner that will provide our children with ADEQUATE FACILITIES AT THE LEAST COST POSSIBLE!!! (And having said all of that, I'm beginning to like what Acclaro is saying about having our percentage recalculated when our turn comes around again in a few years.) ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 4:44pm
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I too would like to thank Ms. Andrew for her contributions on this forum. I wish the city council, Doug,Judy and Les could be as forth coming and informative. Ms. Andrew, you supply us with facts and truths we don't get that from city administrators. It's refreshing and appreciated. 
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Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 6:55pm
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Fellow blogers,
thanks for your kudos to my opinion, and remember you don’t have to meet the needs of public education. It is your constitutional right to have your legislators ( senators and representatives ) to in act the appropriate legislation so that all citizens, residents and legal and illegal aliens ( ouch ) get the free education that the constitution provides for. Your politicians have been warned by the supreme court 17 years ago to get this constitutional inconsistency repaired. I don’t know of any person that would want to pay for something out of their own pocket because of dereliction of duty by the politicians you have elected to represent your constitutional rights. if any would feel that what is available in the public educational system dose not address their children’s educational needs now , they should consider all alternates besides public school until the primary problem is fixed. That problem is the governments unwillingness to have equal taxation with equal representation for public school funding. It also goes beyond that , all schools irregardless of economic or social demographic should be carbon copies of equal opportunity for all children that participate in the public education system. You need to consider the fact that even now your children don’t have equal opportunity in public schools from one district to another. This levy will only give us real estate not equal and fair education across all districts. While some might have a urgency to solve this with your money ( land tax payers ) I suggest you throw it back in their lap, and have them legislate to fix it the right way. Like some say , it’s water under the bridge now , its down stream , cant cry over spilt milk , just clean it up. If your children need help now, its not up to public schools to provide what their educational needs are according to you as a parent with specific hopes and specific standards for their successful education. Since the wide stance of social and economic demographics dictate specific curriculums and goals for students in their own environments you will find that public education is really a safety net for the parents that don’t have any other recourse but to enroll their children in the system. Think out side the box , synergistic integration like the La Quitna inns commercial Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - - https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf
and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as
Brevity is the soul of wit and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946 ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 8:14pm
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Think out side the box , synergistic integration like the La Quitna inns commercial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIIBUksrfwo" rel="nofollow -
Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - - https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf
and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as
Brevity is the soul of wit and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 194 ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 8:29pm
 You have "lost your soul of wit" because you have lacked brevity and your redundency has left a flat key on us all. However, many will probably vote against the levy anyway. pn |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 8:33pm
Chaos Erupts After California Caught Illegally Taxing Residentsplease don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as Brevity is the soul of wit / and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946) ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 8:43pm
The relationship between property assessment and property taxesafter watching this video you can see people who have property that's high in value get a uneven burden of the tax bill. that is not equal taxation with equal representation. that is tax the rich guy more because he has a home with a higher value. remember of forefathers said equal taxation with equal representation. that statement is representative of the citizens as a whole not their social or economic demographic classification. please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as Brevity is the soul of wit / and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946) ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 8:55pm
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A week ago, I began this topic. To my amazement, the juxtaposition
of each side of Phase Two of school project for the Middletown system has been
carved, deeply dissected, and presented in a crystalized fashion. I was leaning NO, but after reading the posts of many, with
apologies to names I am unfamiliar, my family and I will be voting a resounding
YES to the levy May 6. For myself, and many others which fall into supporting
the levy category, we are driven by the words of writer Thomas Paine, whom some
who share an “anarchist” philosophy, may have read many of his books, including
Common Sense, and others which fueled independence from the British monarch. As
Paine said: “One good schoolmaster is more use than a hundred priests.” Schooling is critical in shaping minds of the future. It is
an act of benevolence to support those attending school today, as parents
supported the schools when I was growing up, as did parents before those
parents. Every child deserves our support, financially, emotionally, and
enthusiastically. The district project began over a decade ago, and to pull
back from funding schools at this fork in the road would harm not only the
district, students, and Middletown, but our economy and reputation. Our city
has taken some severe hits over time. But, we can’t just throw in the towel,
raise our hands in exasperation, and say to ourselves and our neighbors, “it’s
over, shut er down.” By delaying the
levy support, even five years, would move the district drastically behind its
neighboring communities. Dissenters have said: “come now, that’s parity, just
spending money to keep from falling deeper behind”. I say, so what! We must not fall further behind,
or we are biting our nose to spite our face. Some of raised objections that Vail is too historic to tear
down, and must be saved. The building was iron clad, “bullet-proof”, as I have
read many discuss car repairs and maintenance. It is evident all around us
history is important and protected. The old courthouse in Hamilton will cost
hundreds of thousands to restore. For many, its’ worth the investment. There is
a difference in a building like Vail, and its’ memories, former athletes risen
to glory, former students that rose to prominence, and a new building. A significant
difference. New schools have modernization, ease of expansion, and reduce
expenditures that add little to nothing to the instruction of education. A
middle school used by kids making the transition from innocence to raging
hormones, deepening voices, advanced curiosity, and transition to dating,
dances, and serious competitive athleticism creates wear, tear, and abuse. Remember
your first try behind an MG or VW bug trying to use a clutch, the manual
standard. You have vivid memories of missed gears almost stripping gears, the
worn tires, and the sweaty palms as you rolled back on a hill awaiting the red
light to change to green. That’s what these middle schools have endured, and
withstood, over several generations. We don’t withdrawal from progress, future
updates, enhancements, because we are stuck in the past. There are many reasons to vote this critically important
levy down, and there are as many reasons to continue forward. Both cases have
been presented. When you step into the booth, or send in the absentee ballot by
MAY 6TH, ask yourself two simple question. Did you have the support
of parents when you were in school funding the system you attended, and did
that education lay the foundation for your success today, your livelihood, and
ability to make good decisions throughout your life. Secondly, will voting NO serve
benefit to you as a resident in the community, as others looking to invest in Middletown,
to move to function as residents, students, and working professionals, or will
you cast a protest vote to change a system, or because you think you went
through the district when K-12 scrutiny wasn’t in place, and district report
cards were not measured on every possible level. Be a gladiator, get in the coliseum, and vote with a clear
conscious. |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 9:37pm
|
this video is a tad bit long but its shows a alternate view of the money funnel that the BOE manages to administrate to its purpose of public education. Since some many of you like statistical analysis there are many slides with all kinds of data and slogans that you might agree with or hate . in the end she points to the fact that accountability at home with parents is the key for a productive and fruit full education. new buildings , new teachers , new administrators , new technology , new enemities, perfect georaphical location, or other atributes will not produce the true positive educational experience with out accountability in the students home............ Published on May 28, 2013 "Why Public Education is Failing Our Children" by Dr. Kelly Kohls, President of the OSBLC (Ohio School Boards Leadership Council), with a focus on the Upper Arlington School System in Upper Arlington, OH. Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as Brevity is the soul of wit / and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946) ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 10:21pm
|
Dean i understand your plight. you think your responsible as a tax payer to provide what the Ohio state constitution is supposed to provide FREE of CHARGE to all citizens threw equal taxation with equal representation. you state "It is an act of benevolence" to support your school system. FREE WILL BENEVOLENCE is never suggested, administered, required, imposed, taxed, or expected. FREE WILL BENEVOLENCE is giving out of your kind hart with no recompense or salutation to ones work as a achievement in ones legacy. So if you are truly a benevolent citizen please fix the schools need for real estate and geographical location with your benevolent hart. We will respect your privacy as true FREE WILL BENEVOLENCE goes with a gladness in ones hart to help others in a time of need. In other words if you suggest that it is benevolent to endorse the school bond levy , and just by your suggestion that we should all co-operate with your concept, you have robed us of our FREE WILL from the benevolent act your propose. I imagine that might seem confusing, irrational, or incoherent, however it lines up with the teachings that have been handed down to generations of people threw BENEVOLENT doctrines around the world. True FREE WILL BENEVOLENCE is practiced with out recompense or influence on others.
Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as
Brevity is the soul of wit and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946) ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: Cooper
Date Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 3:57pm
|
Mr. aflatkey, I found many of your links filled with useful information. However, I need to correct what you say about property tax not being constitutional. I use the example the calculation you posted two posts above. It shows property taxes are constitutional. There is equal taxation, as you show in your example, at 27%. There is equal representation as voters would be given an equal chance to either defeat or pass the levy you show above. It is constitutional, as there is equal taxation, and equal representation. |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 5:34pm
 mymy opinion is that all citizens and residents should pay equal tax with equal representation. In other words to tax a person that has a higher value home more in public school land tax than a person in a lower value home is discrimination. All citizens should contribute equaly not based on their wealth or lack of wealth. In that video it showed that if property values rose a person with higher value home was paying more than his fair share. Equal representation for equal taxation is the thread that needs to be defined as in the video if local expenses were 1000.00 for the taxing district a equal share for 3 homes is 333.33 a year. Each house hold pays a equal part for their services. The minute you put property values into the equation it becomes unequal taxation of citizens because of the assumed value of their property. You see useing property values to overtax the rich is the unequality all citizens should be taxed the same amount of cash value for it to be equal.------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 6:02pm
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its one thing to apply a rate of taxation on income tax depending on your income level. that is a principal that can be addressed in a blog by itself. however property value as a guide to increased tax on different citizens for the purpose of equal education threw equal taxation is not fair. the rich child only gets a high school diploma like the poor child. why should the rich family pay more for the same diploma for their child as a poor child gets the diploma for less because his family pays less property tax. you see that is the unfair taxation with out equal representation.
think about it equality is every citizen pays a equal and fair share in respect to the population not the property value.
this change is what needs to be made so equality in taxation of public schools is fair to all citizens. ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: Cooper
Date Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 7:31pm
|
Mr. aflatkey, You are confused. It is equal taxation because it is based on percentage. Take Butler County for example. Tax rate is 33% for all properties, excluding non profits. The state tax level, for income, is about 3.5%, and that is equal, for all people. How do you handle the non profit hospitals with your plan? We'll leave the porch light on for you. |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 8:33pm
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The % is the problem, it should be a flat tax that represents cost of services divided equaly by districts population. That is equal dollar for dollar to each house hold. Don't leave a light on , I'm not comming over any time soon. LOL !! ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 8:52pm
|
I don't know a hospital that dose not pay its employees and the employees profit from their work there .additionally they keep on building more health care facilitys all around the nation. They must be making money as the stock market is invested heavy'ly in health care industry. It is a cash cow for the investors. If its a non profit hospital its now out of the new health care protocols. Just look at your health care cost. ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 10:31pm
|
Now that we have agreed aflatkey that it is constitutional to use property tax to fund schools, and you said there are no non profit hospitals in the United States, we should look at sales tax, and federal tax. Is it constitutional to pay sales tax in Ohio, and also the county tax, as that would be 6.5% in Butler county, and gas tax is 3.5% per $1.00 spent at the gas pump. That also is constitutional because the tax amount is equal for everyone, and that includes the sales tax and the excise tax on gas. You can't vote on the tax, but is an equal tax on all, as all can chose not to buy gas and to not buy items which are subject to a sales tax. In reality, everything you indicate is unconstitutional, is constitutional, using your own definition. Or would you have everyone pay the same for all items, groceries, would be limited to a flat 100.00, gas, a flat 20.00 purchase. It doesn't work. Aren't you trying to get a protest vote to defeat the levy when everything is constitutional? ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Cooper
Date Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 10:41pm
|
Mr. Aflatkey, Every state charges a different rate for tax for the use of a cell phone. But that is constitutional, because everyone pays the same percentage, and the user can choose not to have a cell phone. In Ohio, if I get use service, without buying an item, you still have to pay a sales tax. How is that constitutional when I am using a service, but am not taking ownership of it? We'll keep that porch light until you come over to the yes levy group.  |
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 10:42pm
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aflatkey, I couldn't resist the temptation to try to be funny. I hope you didn't take offense and will press on. You are adding a lot to the debate. Thank you. pn |
Posted By: luke
Date Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 11:40pm
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aflatkey, You have some solid ideas, you aren't getting the framing correct. States like North Carolina have higher state income tax, around 6.5-9 %, while Ohio is below 4%. But, Ohio makes up for it in much higher property tax, almost double to three times higher for the same amount of value. What Ohio should do is raise its state income tax, to about 7%, add .5-1% to sales tax, take those total funds at state level, minus budget allocations, set aside enough total budget for school districts in total throughout state, which is below 700, and divide an equal amount to each district. That makes a better equitable distribution, which is what you are trying to say. Agreed? |
Posted By: luke
Date Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 11:48pm
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aflatkey, Wanted to add, the chore in getting the higher state income tax rate is the Governors, regardless of party, like to keep the tax rate down as a gimmick, and let the local towns sock it to the folks with property tax. Its not until companies and residents get to Ohio do they realize how screwed up the system is. But, that's the fix. Doubtful it would happen, because unemployment would go up based up[on doubling the state income tax, but this is how states than do have a balance and everyone pays something works. |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 26 2014 at 1:57am
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Luke, and fellow bloggers, first off Cooper turn your light off please , I don’t like motel 6 as they have bed bugs , never going there sorry LOL !!!!!! while it might be true I don’t have the algorithm correct, and don’t know the specifics , I know that a high school diploma should have the same cash or educational value to the rich , Middle class , or poor citizens. Threw a % based land tax the rich pay more for their children’s education than the middle class and the poor. This parallel is in reference that each social demographic group most likely has property values that are reflective of their economic demographic attributes. To contend as a government that a rich person should pay more for the same high school diploma that the poor get is robbery !!! All citizens should pay equally for all public school services they get from their government. Luke what you state at least tries to reduce the burden on property tax payers. And yes it’s a legislative nightmare to get your elected representatives and senators to co-operate with out porking the bill up with ear marks they are trying to bring home to their constituents. Consider this report from http://www.sitemason.com/files/jWin6g/educational_funding_primer.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.sitemason.com/files/jWin6g/educational_funding_primer.pdf 26 % is from sales tax , 34 % is from state and government agencies , & 7 % is from other sources. This is a alternative. And don’t forget what %%%% comes from the That number or statistic ? never heard any one talk about that number ???? where’s that money fit in ? Show me the money !!! In other words are we to believe that that the Ohio School Facilities Commission is distributing these proceeds from the lottery with out audit or accountability that has been called for thru out many years. Can any body give statistical Analysis on how that lotto money is helping our schools ?? im sure with all the intelligence this blog has to offer some one can come up with a report that is available on the web to show how it helps reduce our tax burden. Yes I said REDUCE our tax burden. And don’t forget the county raised your tax burden this year. Im sure all ya all welcomed that with open arms Like that song from JOURNEY. Lets peal that onion and make some people cry !!!! These things being said , and the fact that there is reasonable concepts within my opinion why would you not want to fix it correctly? Or at least in a fashion that shows some fair play. To continue in the same rut is like funding a drug addicts habit till their own death. A alternative that shows some reasonable effort to distribute the tax burden would be more likely accepted. Also if you did not suggest a tax burden till death for the benefit of a failing school system, that might help as well. In any case I must continue in the pursuit of a equal and fair tax system that includes all tax payers and residents legal or illegal. Their kids go to our schools and they should pay as well. Or use contraception !! I take no offence to any jab at my written statements. It only strengthens my resolve to try to express my self in a way that might be better understood. I like jokes keep them coming Vote no on may 6 if you want to make a change in the current system!! Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - - https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as Brevity is the soul of wit / and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946) ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 26 2014 at 7:34am
|
aflatkey, you now are home, you have the puzzle complete. Before you were stating the right concept, you were simply basing it on the wrong theory associated with unconstitutional principles. It is not funding is unconstitutional, rather, it is arbitrary and inequitable. In Middletown, 45% that attend MCSD that have children in the system, don't pay taxes. That is constitutional, but it is inequitable, based upon 55% paying taxes for an additional 45% that pay nothing. Georgia, North Carolina,, Kentucky, and other states, have the same funding formula you wish to implement. With that, I agree with what your point to be. Hope it helps frame your argument. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 26 2014 at 9:45am
|
good morning Acclaro, and fellow blogers just to be clear , I don't wish to implement that formula , i just wanted to show that in some states sales tax helps re leave the burden from land owners. I don't have a bonefied solution to the problem . The unconstitutionality of the inequality in funding and inequality in common education are by the supreme count of Ohio a significant abuse of citizens constitutional rights. they relinquished jurisdiction because they could not get the state representatives and senators to in act legislation that would fix the unfair funding of districts that have favorable higher income demographics as well as poor neighborhoods not receiving the funding so they could have a rich mans public school. When a murderer commits his crime and the authorities can not aprehend the criminal it dose not make him innocent. The supreme court has notified all representatives, senators and citizens that the crime has been committed against your constitutional freedoms. your legislators need to aprehend the bogus legislation that produces this hanus propagating system and stand for your constitutional rights. What is the correct fix ?? well you can blog about that but if your legilators dont fix it, why should we continue to fund their unability to derive a positive outcome. stop all funding till they sit down and ratifiy something that is fair in funding and comon and equal in education. Stop giving the money just out of pitty that they canot come to tearms with a positive solution. Dont confuse the issue with the can of worms of income tax , federal , state , or local. that it self should be addressed in a blog by its self. I do like the language you have provided Acclaro " rather, it is arbitrary and inequitable" as it in some respects show the unconstitutional attributes that are in place. I know you did not intend for that particular use of the reference in your language, so I will be satisfied with your perception. at least for a few hours..LOL !! On a nice spring day like today all should consider that it is with in each season that the struggle for equality in social and economic programs have a renewed interest by concerned citizens. This is as well part of the process and constitutional freedoms this state , and country provide in the equitable solutions that citizens try to provide for all social and economic demographic groups. It is democracy in action and its by far not perfect . Renew your interest in a common goals with a ferver of a porcupine. Defend what principals you stand for from the predators of unconstitutional legislation. and get out and smell the flowers, its your freedom, enjoy Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to make a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as Brevity is the soul of wit / and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946)------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 26 2014 at 10:32am
|
aflatkey, I was hopeful you wre beginning to see the light associated with the true strength of the disparity of funding, than to continue to pain your position on unconstitutionality, which diminishes your position and support. When one examines Randolph vs. State, the Ohio Supreme Court did not state property tax was unconstitutional, but rather, the state funding inadequacy caused an imbalance between districts, whereas wealthy dstricts naturally had more money to put into education, and poor districts had less, as their tax base was lower. The redress became in Ohio, through OSFC, adoption of a formula which every 3 year interval, the state OSFC takes an average of the district tax base, and then calculates a percentile and contribution the state will provide, to balance disproportionate funding. A district like Oakwood or Upper Arlington receives almost, if not entirely, no state funding, whereas a district such as Springfield receives a substantial amount of state funding. That is the remedy, and the reason the Supreme Court no longer maintained jurisdicition. So, you presently advocate the Supreme Court did not go far enough. Then, the logical step would be the state legislation, which nothing has been done since the initial decision in Randolph. You were on the right track, but now continue to follow the wrong trail, walking in a circle when the path is due north. Taking your statements further, one would indicate it is unconstitutional to not be born equally, to have a rich family, a middle income family, and a poor family, because it is unfair, the rich family naturally has a better position for success, than the other two. Or worse, you subscribe to communistic doctrine, whereas the state compensates for inequalities, by making everyone equal, and having one work based upon the dictation of the state. You are walking in circles; grab a compass, and head due north. You will find what you seek, but only when following and walking on the right path. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 26 2014 at 11:46am
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ah tonto I see your your tipi in the distance, you do point out the basic problem of income inequality in districts. That is all I need.you mention that the osfc makes up for the short fall. Do you have a link to their audit ? Do they distribute the profits from the lottery? I imagine were on the same side in some respects, and I know for a fact you are knolageable as your post show some intuative thought. I just don't think from where I stand that the funding process is fair. I am not responsible for all the children in my district , they are not my family ,hell they don't even greet me at the dollar store. And walking in circles is good exercise. LOL ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 26 2014 at 12:12pm
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Well, lets just quit paying tax if our kids don't attend a school that is public, or when our kids are out of school. I am married but cannot have children, therefore, I should not pay for schools? Where is the tobacco money being spent from litigation in Ohio (class action), Lone Ranger?  ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 26 2014 at 1:34pm
|
There comes a time when a man should wear a mask LOL !! while the gentleman’s picture you post is humorous in fact his opinions show the lack of common good in the tax system. you should never pay for something you don’t believe in. how ever the government system binds you to pay for things you don’t agree with. its just a fact of a taxpayers life. So when ever you can stop the bleeding you should. The conceptual thought that it is society’s obligation to provide for what parents do not discipline in education in their own homes is a waste of taxpayers resources. You can bring a horse to water but you cant make him drink. The same applies to a camel. A ravens quest is to live of the disparity of all other animals in death. You can see this aptitude in your legislators urge for re-election. While they show their good side and proclaim justice for all their constituents, they continue in their political plight to save their political careers with what ever back room deals bring the issue or issues to rest in a favorable light for their re election. Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to make a change in the current system!! Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - - https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as Brevity is the soul of wit / and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946) ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 26 2014 at 9:15pm
|
Tonto (acclaro ) you stated "When one examines Randolph vs. State, the Ohio Supreme Court did not state property tax was unconstitutional, but rather, the state funding inadequacy caused an imbalance between districts, whereas wealthy dstricts naturally had more money to put into education, and poor districts had less, as their tax base was lower." you could argue that the in balance is provided by using property tax values to generate the inconsistency in funding- hence forth by useing property tax as a tool to generate the funding stream you are propigating the inequality inherant to each social economic demographic group threw out various districts. Dont fund it with property tax and WOW all of a sudden the rich cannot generate more than the poor. that levels the playing field for me. its not that property tax is unconstitutional. its that its use as a funding tool for schools generates unequal streams of funding depending on the social and economic demographic of each district. even when the OFSC chips in their two cents the thing is still not truly balanced , if it was we would not have to endure the pain of bonds and levy's that ask more from poor districts. and in my opinion that is one reason the use of property tax as a funding tool in unconstitutional. your friend the Long Ranger , we ride for justice, and justice is what you seek, Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !! Vote no on may 6 if you want to make a change in the current system!!
Visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf" rel="nofollow - and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.
please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as Brevity is the soul of wit / and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail. and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946)
------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: Cooper
Date Posted: Apr 26 2014 at 10:32pm
|
Mr. aflatkey, I must indicate you are trying to persuade many that are no voters, and on the same side, so you should be moving yes voters over, not those in the same infield as you. You again are back to where you started. The state set up the OSFC after the Randolph ruling, and it is the state that makes up the inequality of funding, not the property tax owner. If you check the county tax rate in 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, through 2014, it is the same percentage. It is the state which was found to be at fault, not the use of property tax. What made it unconstitutional was the fact poor districts did not raise the same taxes as rich districts. If I have 5 P & G's in my district, and your district has just a hospital and property owners, my district is richer. I don't get as much from the state as you do through OSFC.  |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Apr 27 2014 at 1:18am
|
Aflatkey: this is so funny that I literally fell out of my chair laughing! How many posts have you written---in bold letters, even with me poking fun at it----that DeRolph versus the state was a landmark decision, and then you respond RANDOLPH versus the state? Actually, the case for Randolph was the State vs. Randolph, citation: [Cite as State v. Randolph, 2011-Ohio-488.]: "Appellant appeals his conviction for complicity to bank robbery, entered on a finding of guilty after a no contest plea in the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas." I pulled this off of Wikipedia, one of the most reliable internet sites. If it's in Wikipedia, you are guaranteed that it's accurate: "DeRolph v. State was a landmark case in Ohio constitutional law in which the Ohio Supreme Court ruled that the state's method for funding public education was unconstitutional." Hmm. sounds familiar. just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 27 2014 at 2:55am
|
while you might be right in the respect of im talking to the wrong group of people , be joyfull that i am so fervent in the cause, I don't believe the OSFC is accountable for its actions and it has never been audited as far as i can find. if you think my post are stupid and with out merit that's fine. It is still my opinion . in my view property tax is a unfair way of getting equal portions from all taxpayers. and the court case states that their is no balance to the funding stream. To me its just that simple. all the % talk and other in depth details in relation to some equation that produces a specific result is irrelevant. a district has 4 citizens or residents legal or illegal, with or with out real estate property, public schools cost 100.00. all 4 tax paying humans pay 25.00 dollars. period. no other way but equal tax threw equal representation. not based on the supposed value of your upidy home, or your trashy home ,or your lack of home. and if the district dose not meet the cost then - witch is mathematically impossible then have the beurocratic OSFC throw in some money for good measure LOL equal and accountable by adult population. any one over 18 must pay their fair part of the bill. ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 27 2014 at 9:28am
|
Well played chmoore1; I planted the wrong case to see if aflatkey even recalled the appellee in the case and which county appellee was residing. You are correct on the Morrow case. alflatkey, friend, DeRolph is the case which you disagree, not Randolph, you indicated it was constitutional, yet you have in the tag line it is unconstitutional. I don't like it when gas prices rise, it is inequitable. Therefore, I am going to burn all gas stations. Isn't that what you are indicating? Son of Anarchy is a show some may like to watch, but dangerous to follow in the path when reasoning for anarchy is flawed. I am convinced now you are walking the infinity trail, taking you back to where you started without making ground in direction, but walking many steps, Call Sec of State H and ask about the audit----you will find what you covet grasshopper. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Cooper
Date Posted: Apr 27 2014 at 10:49am
 No to levy, but not because we shouldn't pay taxes, but because the benefit isn't worth the expense. Lets go shutdown the Federal Reserve, they print money with gold in Fort Knox, but there isn't gold in Fort Know. No one has seen it since the early 1960's. Giving the opposition to levy aflatkey.....  a black eye. |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Apr 27 2014 at 1:13pm
| Wanted to see if Aflatkey was paying attention. Remember: DeRolph vs. State was a landmark decision.... just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: aflatkey
Date Posted: Apr 27 2014 at 11:46pm
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fellow blogers,
After a 16 hour day at work , I return to view what has been contributed to the blog. I understand that most of you perceive me as one who might be irrational and incoherent with my postings. This is your right of perception and freedom in this country. As bloggers you have been a notable class of distinguished writers of opinions that have relevance to the subject in specificity as well as statistical and documental references. As the D day approaches in 8 days , for the final count down of votes on a subject that stirs all involved in different ways I have a few things I would like you to know. Im totally fine with falling home values – let the bottom drop out again. This lowers my tax bill. The rank of Not everybody can be a winner , there has to be losers for there to be winner. These statistical items have no impact on a students educational discipline that is instilled in the students home. As stated by several blogers if we get a lower statistic we will qualify for more money in a few years. That saves taxpayers money. You might say “ what do we do for the students now ?” as responsible parents that want their children to have a well disciplined education you need to invest in your children not expect the state or local district that is 49th in the nation to provide the results you aspire for your children. The answer is not in your BOE district its in your families ability to provide for your children. Some will not be able to do this type of realignment for their children because of social and economic demographics. This is not the first time society has had a short fall. While some might think I might be a anarchist or communist , I beg to differ. While it is true I like medieval history and enjoy the movies of those times, there is a specific Honor attribute to those times in history that you rarely see in society today. As for the one who thought I might be a communist in thinking, you might have to retract that idea as a communist dose not have the ability to think freely with out retribution from their communist government. I am not in fear for sharing my opinions of tax equality threw equal taxation with equal representation. In the end my motive was just to share my opinion. Much like the political adds you see on tv during election times. It was a campaign with no monetary resources that motivated people to interact, in positive and negative ways towards my opinions. The redundant repetition of concepts and ideas was a direct representation of all the political adds you endure on local tv that you eventually endorse or hate. I did it for free , your politicians spend millions to get elected or re-elected . these inconsistencies in our governments mechanics are truly a breach of the trust citizen’s put in politicians that take the oath of office. I bid all of you fare well as I will not return to this forum till after the may 6th vote. I have enjoyed all who have tried to change my opinion, and all who see some relative contribution that I have provided. Take it easy and be safe in your day to day activities. ------------- aflatkey |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Apr 28 2014 at 9:41am
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lol a-flat---you should NEVER post that "good bye" message--since u will most likely eat those words like most others do. While repetitive, I have appreciated your presence and strongly agree with your basic premise of defeating ALL property tax-based levys until the state formula is changed. I favor a sales tax increase of approx. 3% to spread the cost to everyone. If you spend, then you are taxed regardless of income or property ownership. I have no interest in your "race to the bottom" even though it would be a short ride for Middletown residents. Our property is depressed enough for reasons brought on by a national situation and local economic factors. It doesn't help that our local govt. has pretty much valued all commercial properties as worthless, based on paying people to take buildings in the area formerly known as downtown. Kinda silly to expect others to pay for properties in the vicinity. So--we have a city govt.and school system that both(in the last 15 years) went after increasing the Section 8 presence in the area....?? The city in order to get the fed $$$ which was probably initially mis-spent on pet self-serving projects(property grants to homeowners in the "historic" S Main area?) and on business owners in the same approximate area. Allegedly former school super Dr.Price wanted increased Section 8 in order to add to enrollment in order to receive more fed $$? If this double whammy is true, then the consequences that have followed call for clean sweeps of everyone involved in this process. The school system has suffered through test scoring,it's outside perception, and the shift of good students to private schooling and home schooling. The city has suffered economically as the local business system has dried up and shrunk to barely sustainable levels. It has now become a quality of life issue as to whether people want to move into this community, and sadly, those successful long-term contributors who now want to leave regardless of the cost. Look to the east end---we have a mall on the ropes with the worst pot hole thru way that I know of. I believe that a nice Target location will close this week. Look to the west end--despite strong efforts by a few locals + decades and millions, continues to struggle. Liberty went down, Stain went down, numerous Pendleton delis have gone down, Sugar Hi never opened, and At the Square seems to struggle. Retail barely exists above minimum levels and quality, I am committed to trying to bring things back for as long as I remain here. The schools must go on, and continue to raise their performance levels while significantly controlling expenses. Our city agovt/admin structure has to change, and will soon--particularly with the names, faces and priorities pursued. I truly believe that. It has taken a long time to sink this low--it will take a long time to make it better. We need to eliminate the cliques and pockets of special interests and priorities. We must become ONE community where everyone and every area receives equal concern and support. Every neighborhood/area is important, almost all are struggling, and they all need to be equally addressed. The "old guard" and their "old ways" aren't working, and haven't worked for 20+ years. We need 20-33-40-50yo tops progressive individuals to fairly and successfully bring us out of our old, tired and failed ways. We have an important election next week, and another more important election in November. If we don't bring in change, then we get more of the same. Is that what YOU WANT? |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Apr 28 2014 at 10:37am
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Spider |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Apr 28 2014 at 10:59am
| Well said Spider. |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Apr 28 2014 at 11:01am
| I can't seem to get the "emoticons" to work what am I doing wrong? |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 28 2014 at 12:44pm
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sj, I have always found your point of view and writing prose to be succinct. In fact, I find both you and Marcia Andrew to have an excellent ability to summarize points, and "net" with clarity, the underlying issues and present some semblance of a solution. I don't disagree with your position on there should be a better means of equitable taxation. However, I disagree with an approximate 3 % sales tax. I add; you clearly weren't presenting this as a solution, just a demonstration that you see a system broken and flawed. If one were to raise sales tax, it would stymie commerce in Ohio. Consumers outside Ohio would not buy products to pay a tariff on their imports to supplement Ohio's school system. It doesn't work internally, and it would not effectively work inter and intrastate. Both ebay and amazon are keeping the US economy from total collapse because they don't charge sales tax. In states which they are forced to do so, their sales are 9-10% below, the states which they legally aren't mandated to collect these fees during the online transaction. Your point is made; there has to be a fix, but sales tax alone isn't the proper fix, in my opinion nonetheless. You made reference to Dr. Price and increase avocation of section 8 vouchers. Airlines use load factors, and software companies use license fees associated with utilization. In other words, you state by allegations, Dr. Price used section 8 to fill seats in MCSD. I admit, I have heard the same allegation. Do you have proof of this assertion, although speculative? If so, the approval would go the Marty Koelher, and if true, that is disturbing city council is now undoing what was done incorrectly, 10-12 years ago, and would appear to warrant immediate action. I would also be curious what you mean by your commitment to turn Middletown around, and what fashion: running for office, investing, or recognizing problems to fix them? You also made reference to changes in city haul, council perhaps, and so forth. Your feedback would be helpful to better understand your position. There are overwhelming problems confronting Middletown. I see higher taxation the absolute worst remedy for the inflicted wounds you have delineated. Many are bailing in Middletown, you appear to be willing to stay on board through the perfect storm coming. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Apr 28 2014 at 3:18pm
| Acclaro: City council can't undue what's been done. They took the vouchers for the money. As Laubaugh tried to tell them there is ALWAYS consequences. There is always a trade off. Now they have decided they like the money but no longer want the vouchers but you cannot separate the two. I guess HUD has decided to move the program because they refuse to come in compliance so the money will go also. So Judy failed in her attempt to get rid of the vouchers. Wasn't that the reason she was brought here. |