razing the Manchester?
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown Community
Forum Name: About Middletown
Forum Description: History and information about Middletown, Ohio
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3837
Printed Date: Nov 21 2024 at 11:17pm
Topic: razing the Manchester?
Posted By: squeemy
Subject: razing the Manchester?
Date Posted: Apr 30 2011 at 9:51pm
| if it's found that the Manchester is too expensive to renovate or that renovation costs exceed those necessary to build new, would you support tearing it down? |
Replies:
Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 1:02am
I would be ok if they tore down the whole downtown area starting with the city building 
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 9:57am
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Slowly, this town is losing it's identity. With all the demo going on, the town is literally sending it's past to the dump in trucks. Problem right now is that when something around here is torn down, there is nothing to replace it with new construction. Look at what they have torn down since they started this mass demolition of the city. For the most part, empty lots, while "crossing their fingers" that something, anything, will build in the empty spaces.
No, with the track record of this city's pathetic econ. dev. plan (actually no plan at all) I don't wish to see another building fall to the excavator and dump truck. Not until they have a commitment to occupy the land that will be left when our history goes to the landfill and when they come up with a competent, doable plan to replace their mass destruction. How do other cities, who are as cash strapped as this one is, manage to save and rejuvenate their older structures with character? This city can't get out of the way of it's own ineptness due to incompetency from the city leaders. They are changing this city alright. And it ain't pretty and for the better either.  Disgusting.
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Posted By: squeemy
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 11:07am
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yep - not everything that gets torn down gets replaced with something better - Middletown's post office comes to mind. gotta love that parking... so the Manchester can come down but only if something better replaces it? not necessarily a hotel? |
Posted By: viper771
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 1:04pm
| Why did they tear down the old post office anyway? I saw some old post cards of it and it looked really cool. A lot of the old downtown is gone now, compared to what was there. The buildins from around Verity to Main are some of the last great old buildings that are left. The Seabald block is just a shadow of its former self :( |
Posted By: squeemy
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 2:01pm
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I just wish those at the time of the post office move had done a traffic study... but anyway, is there anything significant about the Manchester that would deem it irreplaceable? is it architecturally significant? enough so to warrant spending more to renovate than what it would cost to replace it? |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 2:20pm
| squeemy - Why is it so much more to renovate? More importantly, why are you going to tear down an existing building when there are empty lots across the street from the Manchester ready for immediate construction? What's the point in tearing anything down? |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 3:12pm
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Even if restoration costs more than new construction, there is a 20% federal non-competitive tax credit and 25% state competitive tax credit that could be leveraged to drop rehabilitation costs below new construction. The character of the end product will be much different that what you could deliver new.
Alternatively, if a new facility was desired, the Manchester could be rehabbed for another use such as senior housing. In Hamilton, the former Anthony Wanye Hotel (Hamilton's answer to the Manchester), was long-vacant and near demolition, but preservation groups saved the building in it last hour and it was converted 3 years later to senior housing using LIHTC tax credits and the federal historic tax credit.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 6:33am
Any reason why Middletown leaders couldn't do the same thing here if Cincy State doesn't follow through? |
SupportMiddletown wrote:Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 6:47am
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OK squeem, tony,vet,viper, others---
How often did you go there?
Once a week? month? year?
Events--how many did you attend?
How many of your friends/visitors that needed lodging stayed there?
Important building?
Your actions and choices are much more vocal than your rhetoric
The place closed due to lack of support from the public
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 6:51am
I guess seniors are just not the right kind of citizens that the master race...oops, I mean "Master Plan" calls for in Camelot...oops, I mean downtown Middletown. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 7:06am
I didn't go to the Manchester other than once every ten years for high school reunions.......Ok Spider, tear it down. Hell, tear everything that represented a better time down. The empty lot where Roosevelt school stood looks alot better and should stay empty for years to come. Let's just have a town with a few businesses standing coupled with some isolated areas of homes, both new and old,a deserted downtown area, two fast food rows, crumbling streets and infra., label the town as a bedroom community and all commute to work. Watcha say? We don't need no stinkin' history retained in this town.  Make 'er all empty lots and "greenspace". Gotta be a balance between tearing everything in sight down and preserving some of it, doesn't there?
If you could find another use for this building as Support Middletown suggested Hamilton did with the Anthony Wayne, why not at least try? JMO |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 7:27am
| spiderjohn - what is rhetorical about pointing out an empty lot?I'll ask again, what is the point in tearing down an existing building when there is an empty lot across the street? You don't have to spend money for demolition to start building on an empty lot. Don't we have a budget crisis in this town? Is it so important to put this culinary school at the site of the Manchester that we'd ignore the obvious (and obviously cheaper) alternative? I didn't go to the Manchester because I couldn't afford to go there so forgive my poverty. What does that have to do with not wanting the building torn down? The building closed because there was no need for a hotel downtown anymore. Perhaps if there were a reason for a downtown hotel the Manchester would still be operating. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 9:58am
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Didn't say a word about the future of the building/property.
I simply asked how often you(collectively) patronized that BUSINESS(it was not a museum!)
And as usual, y'all dance around the issue without a pointed answer, and want to dodge the message to conveniently shoot the messenger. Businesses close because the public does not support them--not because of some whim
The former property owners did everything that they could to keep it going, far beyond normal/sensible business sense.
Put up YOUR OWN $$--buy or lease a few of these "valuable historic" non-used properties and make something happen! In essence--put yer $$ where your mouths have been going or quit yer whining. You didn't support the place--it finally shut down--big surprise!
Would be no shock to me if Cincy St. really didn't want it because the fix was far too expensive.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 12:14pm
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Spider....ok, we understand your take on the Manchester being a business and not a historic landmark. We understand that it folded because no one was patronizing it. It is now a useless hulk, just sitting idle awaiting disposition. I answered your question on how often I went there. No reason to have company stay there as I have a home with ample room. No reason to pay the prices they were charging. I'm not a high roller and couldn't justify the prices for the portions. We all know the hotel lost all of it's business when Armco and other companies exited the city leaving the hotel rooms empty of guests. Not enough of the old guard left that were around when the Manchester was a destination for entertainment and a nice dinner meal either.
Now, I ask you, what is the harm in investigating a new usage for the Manchester. What is the harm in the city, like Hamilton and their Anthony Wayne hotel, that was in a similar situation to the Manchester now, applying for some grants or other funding available, to find a new life for this building as seniors housing........and, if that fails, tear her down and make another green space/empty lot. The old "put your money where your mouth is" only applies to people who have the extra income to make an investment like that. Don't know of too many people that can do what you are suggesting, do you? Most of us are just getting by in this lousy economy as you well know. Any problem with making one last attempt? |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 12:58pm
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vet--I pretty much agree with what you are saying, HOWEVER this property is now owned by the city, with only a hope/promise(?) that C St. might use it as a hospitality/culinary school/training center. That is after a minimum 10 million re-hab.
If this deal fallsthrough, absolutely other uses need to be researched and quickly. Probably should be done now, if we had a functional ED Dept.
Manchester was too pricey for everyone? I didn't go there because I never liked the food.
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 1:35pm
spider - I believe I answered your question.
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Posted By: viper771
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 2:15pm
| I never went to the Manchester bec frankly I had no reason to stay at a hotel when I just lived down the street. I didn't know they had food there. Did they advertise? Besides, I moved to Middletown full time within a few mths of it closing its doors. I am not staying it should be a hotel again. It could be something else. If Middletown did what OTR is doing with their empty buildings that need fixing up, I am sure that there could be a lot of interest in fxing up some of the old commercial buildings around the old downtown area. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 5:37pm
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So--the Manchester Inn was no longer a reasonable service option to those posting here for various reasons. If Cincy St. comes in on a large scale and finds the Manchester renovation unrealistic, could it be used as a dormitory for students(if there was a need)? We have enough low-class unkept senior high-rises in the area already, and those living in them can hardly spur an area economy.
People--we need businesses that can attract people with $$ on a regular basis, or we will have no business presence at all. Cash turns the wheeels to make everyone happy and everything better.
Y'all seem to expect every event and thing to be like a Broad Street Bash--free entertainment. Won't be much more of that if area business interests don't get an economic boost.
Will be very interesting to gauge the PAC first friday and 2nd look Saturday this week.
Will there actually be BUYERS or just a large crowd of gawkers and minglers?
Will we get true sales figures to measure our community investment?
Should I order in a couple of truckloads of mothballs?
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 6:02pm
| spider - there is no doubt that we need businesses not only in the downtown area but all over the geographic area of Middletown. I have no expectations for events or anything else. You make a great point that without economic activity spurred by business, nothing will happen. If you're expecting the PAC to supply that, you will be disappointed. Art is a luxury item; there simply isn't that kind of money in this town that can afford to splurge on luxury items. As for the mothballs, since we (the city) already own the property, it's either renovate or demolish. Demolition costs money which our city tells us we don't have. Once again we are out on a limb with no contract for what Cincy State is doing or going to do. The thread started off as a choice between renovate or demolish. Seems to me this is a test balloon to see what people think if the Manchester is not economically viable for the Cincy State project. As I stated before, why demolish a building when there is an empty lot across the street. Is this about Cincy State or another demolition project? |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 6:40pm
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Consider the Swallen’s building. This was also a large, city-owned building, structurally sound, in the heart of downtown, near Donham Plaza, and moth balled. The city turned down an offer of over $200,000 from the Middletown Area Senior Citizens, who desired to use the first floor as an activity center and the upstairs as housing for seniors. Years later, when our city budget could no longer afford the cost of keeping the structure mothballed, the building was demolished. If Cinci State decides against using the Manchester, you can look for the same fate to befall that structure. Why??? Because City Hall routinely violates both its own ordinances and the Ohio Revised Code regarding the disposal of City-owned real estate!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 8:51pm
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Spider says....
"People--we need businesses that can attract people with $$ on a regular basis, or we will have no business presence at all. Cash turns the wheeels to make everyone happy and everything better". I say we need decent paying jobs first. If businesses know that there is a town that has residents making decent wages and has disposable incomes, there will likely be more businesses to locate here. Spider is correct in stating that cash turns the wheels in any community. If people have income, they purchase things like furniture, cars, go to restaurants, purchase homes, etc. We all know and are concerned (except for the incompetents at city hall), that jobs are the key to start any recovery. To date, this city hasn't made one attempt to attract any meaningful employment for anyone living in this town with the exception of the new coke plant. That's as close as it has gotten to real employment in the last 15 years. Otherwise, it's been fast food, retail, service industry and other low-paying, non-survivable garbage offered. Until that happens, nothing will turn this town toward the proper direction. JMO |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 9:23pm
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correct--the families with serious cash have been leaving the building for decades now
with higher quality, variety and multiple options disappearing daily over the same period, why wouldn't they do so? Great housing is cheap here for a reason.
quality jobs bring quality people
we need both
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Posted By: squeemy
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 10:58pm
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I tried to get down to the Manchester every once in awhile - lots of wedding receptions the past several years, had a drink at the bar with the wife and got in one last prime rib Friday this past December. the hotel was a customer of mine and I got to see a lot of the building. what I saw wasn't pretty. if fact, let's just say for anyone left holding the bag, it's a nightmare of asbestos and completely defunct mechanical systems. it's going to be a very difficult sell for anyone for any purpose no matter how generous the discount to renovate. but I don't think the CS deal is contingent upon the college using the Manchester. at least I hope not. |
Posted By: 409
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 11:41pm
Think we missed the boat`
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Posted By: viper771
Date Posted: May 02 2011 at 11:44pm
| 409....I think you are totally right. MT had a parking structure and everything!!! |
Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 12:51am
Maybe this is the answer to Middletowns' problems just send us all the illegals (not the legal immigrants cause they all going to Detroit)  Bloomberg: U.S. Should Make All New Immigrants Live in DetroitPublished May 01, 2011 | FoxNews.com Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/01/bloomberg-make-new-immigrants-live-detroit/#ixzz1LGJHvSrg - http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/01/bloomberg-make-new-immigrants-live-detroit/#ixzz1LGJHvSrg Detroit needs residents. Immigrants want to live in America. Michael Bloomberg says he's got a simple solution for both needs -- send all new immigrants to Detroit. In a novel approach to immigration reform, the New York City mayor said Sunday that if he could have his way, he'd use the immigrant workforce to jump-start the Motor City's economy by requiring Detroit residency. "The population has left. You've got to do something about that," Bloomberg said on NBC's " http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/reporters/meet-the-press-martha-rountree.htm#r_src=ramp - "You would populate Detroit overnight because half the world wants to come here," he said. Bloomberg has long advocated for changes in immigration policy. He said Sunday that America's "superpower" status depends on its ability to continue letting immigrants in. |
Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 12:55am
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Check out some of these Grand old buildings in Detroit that are falling apart seems like such a waste of history. http://www.businessinsider.com/yves-marchand-romain-meffre-ruins-detroit-2011-2#fisher-body-21-plant-19 - http://www.businessinsider.com/yves-marchand-romain-meffre-ruins-detroit-2011-2#fisher-body-21-plant-19 |
Posted By: middletownscouter
Date Posted: May 03 2011 at 8:14am
| You know, if you're going to bring in a college campus in the downtown area, it is great that there's adequate parking in the area like a parking garage...oh, wait. Nevermind. |
Posted By: viper771
Date Posted: May 04 2011 at 1:15am
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: May 04 2011 at 4:08am
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Will the effect to city taxpayers, either costs of maintaining/mothballing buildings or the possible revenue from Cinci State, be discussed during the budget discussions during the special--or is it a continuation of the regular--meeting to be held Wednesday--or is it Thursday--and will such discussions be televised???
Or will we taxpayers be expected to "trust" whatever is later reported to us??? ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Voleye
Date Posted: Jun 15 2011 at 9:45pm
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One of the reasons the Manchester shut down is the lack of maintance. The owners have neglected the building, electric, HVAC and roofs for so long, that there is no more band aids that will work. I remember talking with several ballon pilots last year about the hotel. Lack of warm water, elevator would not work, no air conditioning in the rooms or ballrooms. So why would people visit the hotel and spend money there if the "experience" sucked? One stupid question. Dont you think the city would have done a study to see how much the building would have taken to repair BEFORE they took ownership of it?
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jun 16 2011 at 12:42pm
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Voleye asks....."One stupid question. Dont you think the city would have done a study to see how much the building would have taken to repair BEFORE they took ownership of it?"
Excellent question. Might ask the same thing about the other three or so buildings the city purchased from the Thatcher estate and helped Sherry Garrett out from under properties that she couldn't unload in her lifetime. They are all sitting there decaying with no reason to assume that any monies are available to bring them up to date. Mold and other public health issues abound. They are all outdated for a modern business climate. No business will take them off the city's hands, especially in the current condition of both the buildings and the economy, plus the location is a definite negative. We are all wondering why the city bought these derelicts in the first place. One of many in a long line of screwups in city decision-making. JMO |
Posted By: Voleye
Date Posted: Jun 16 2011 at 4:16pm
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The buildings better not decay too much. I would hate to see the city get a letter from city code enforcement, telling them to make upgrades to the buildings. |