Issue 5-Collective Bargaining
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Outside World
Forum Name: News, Info and Happenings outside Middletown
Forum Description: It might be happening outside Middletown, but it affects us here at home.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3685
Printed Date: Dec 22 2024 at 11:08pm
Topic: Issue 5-Collective Bargaining
Posted By: VietVet
Subject: Issue 5-Collective Bargaining
Date Posted: Feb 22 2011 at 7:24am
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From the Journal....
Local firefighter says proposed bill would knock him out of the middle class MIDDLETOWN — Firefighter Mark Pelfrey said a proposed bill that would alter collective bargaining rights for public employees would essentially knock him and thousands of other public union employees out of the middle class. “(Public employees) are struggling to stay in the middle class as it is,” Pelfrey said. However, Middletown firefighter Jon Harvey, president of Local 336, said the bill threatens to take away the employee’s ability to negotiate. Look, we in the private sector have a hard time agreeing with the public union stance. We are paying, out of our paycheck, approx. 21% of our benefits premiums with the employer picking up the rest. As I understand it, the public union worker is paying approx. 9% out of their paycheck for premiums. We are enchancing our 401K's to the tune of 5-10-15% out of our paychecks to "beef up" our retirement. Some private employers match that. How much do the public union people pay into their retirement? Anyone? We, in the private sector, have no one to negotiate across the table for us. When raise time comes, we are given a performance appraisal, and handed a little slip of paper that tells what % raise we will receive for the year, if any. In the 40+ years of working in the private sector, I have been given as little as a 0.5% raise to as much as 3% when company profits were good. What is the average raise negotiated each year by the unions? Bet it was never 0% or 0.5%. Hard for me, with my workplace experiences to agree with the unions. They seem to have been on the greedy side over the years. As for being left behind being middle-class......welcome to our world, union people. We started being left behind in the 70's as to wages keeping up with costs of living. You need to appreciate some of that gravy you have enjoyed all these years IMO. Your employer, the taxpayer who is providing your salary and bennies package, can't give anymore in taxes to afford your Escalades, your bass boat and your home in the upscale areas. Your towns, like Middletown, can no longer afford to spend 21 million out of 30 million on salary and bennies costs in their budgets. You have outpriced yourself and it has now caught up with your demands. There ain't no more money left to afford you as your demands over the years have outpaced city revenues. I'm a working middle-class person myself but even I know the money is not there for lavish pay....public or private sector. |
Replies:
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Feb 22 2011 at 10:30am
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You do realize that public service employees don't pay Social Security, right? That benefit package was originally designed to get good people to choose public work over private sector jobs. It was always assumed that you would pay a competitive wage and benefit package to a public employee to get the best people to be your firemen, policemen, teachers and other public servants. It seems that the public at large no longer agrees with that philosophy. Unions haven't done themselves any favors. My understanding of unions were that they assured a quality employee; well-trained, professional and dependable. Now it seems that unions want nothing more than more members to pay dues to prop up the salary of the union leadership and their political clout. If unions want to regain credibility with the electorate, they will have to do a better job of assuring quality instead of protecting their worst members. That would go a long way in justifying their collective bargaining stance.I disagree with one aspect of Viet Vet's post, that there is no money available for the lavish pay in public or private sector jobs. To denigrate public employees who own a bass boat or a Cadillac is to miss the point as to where all that lavish pay is really going. The top posts in public service jobs are where the lavish salaries can be found; from the top posts in city and county government to our elected officials who start out as "one of the people" and end their careers as millionaires with lavish public pensions. That is no different than the 2%ers in this country who get tax breaks while their bought and paid for government lackeys scream "we're broke"! There is money available, the problem becomes everyone wants a bigger slice and only the 2%ers have the power to get it. If you haven't seen the widening disparity in income distribution, then you have fallen for the distraction that the wealthy have perpetrated. Divide and conquor; keep the lower income classes fighting amongst themselves while the rich get richer. Working people need to demand an end to this charade; the only thing keeping progress from happening is greed!!!
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 22 2011 at 12:31pm
| You are correct Tony B......I am wrong when I say that there is no money for lavish pay in public/private sector jobs. I should have said that cash-strapped cities can no longer afford to deal money to lavish pay the way they did in the past when they all had adequate revenue. There are union folks who work "on the floor" who can afford Escalades, bass boats and live next door to company VP's in upscale neighborhoods. Seems to me that the pay is mis-aligned with responsibility. When a person who is responsible for his/her own little job on the floor is living the relative same lifestyle as the VP, responsible for a greater portion of the company operation, it would appear slightly out of kilter, wouldn't it? This same union floor person is certainly living at a higher level than most non-union shop workers, doing equivalent work in a non-union environment with no collective bargaining power. Heck, back in the 70's, I worked for a company in Columbus where the owners said they would shut the doors and no one would have a job, if the workers insisted on going union. That's about as close as I have come to being in a union all these years. Just think they have gotten too big for their britches with their demands over the years and now it has caught up with them. They are pricing themselves right out of the market of affordability. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Feb 22 2011 at 6:22pm
| VietVet, I could not agree more about current unions and what they have self-inflicted. The point about a union worker living at a higher level than most non-union workers doing equivalent work is actually a good reason for unions. Equivalent work, equivalent pay? The true strength of union membership should be about the quality and productiveness of the worker and the ability of those workers to ban together to have good pay and good working conditions. Where the unions screwed themselves became membership instead of the quality of the work done by union members. It became job banks, where workers who didn't work got paid the same as those doing the work. Benefits from companies were so workers didn't ask for higher wages. That caught up to manufacturers when insurance companies found a way to siphon money from both the union and the company by raising premiums each year. Now the company can't pay the wage or the benfits. They can move their manufacturing overseas, though; they'll figure out a way to make money. To top it off, we pay for unemployment insurance so that we can not work and still get paid. If we want to make infrastructure improvements, why don't we take the unemployment insurance money we pay and put these people to work building hi-speed rail and other improvements? As for the VP in your example, either he isn't very good at his job or he isn't a very good negotiator! |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 6:40am
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TonyB- you state "the true strength of union membership should be about the quality and productiveness of the worker...." The thing that has worked against that statement is the Teacher's Union. They have this little thing called tenure and it has been noted that some teachers, NOT ALL, get their years in and "float" to retirement-usually early at 55 or so. Look at the Midd. school district performance overall. (proficiency tests- poor indicator numbers) Based on your statement about productiveness and quality, should MOST teachers (and admin.) in the Midd. system receive a raise? Probably not if the criteria is based on merit, quality and being productive. Yet, the school board keeps negotiating with the teachers union and admin. positions and still awards raises based on their demands. Time to get tough. Eliminate step increases, eliminate/reduce automatic raises if poor quality and productiveness has occured, go to the merit system and eliminate tenure which MAY foster slackers once obtained. Wonder if this same culture occurs in the fire, police and city worker unions? Perhaps.
My point about the VP-union worker comparison wasn't about how good the VP is on the job or being a good negotiator. It was to emphasize how the union wages have allowed some union members, who occupy "floor jobs" and not higher management positions, to increase their standard of living to the point where they are living at the same level as a position much higher and with much more responsibility than their job requires. How did private companies and public positions get to the point where the unions have negotiated regular, non-management floor positions to be on the same level as middle management? (Can't believe I'm on the side of management on this one- always disliked management in general)  I just see the overall union mentality as being too greedy, to the point of bankrupting cities and employers (salaries make up 75% of the Middletown budget), especially in today's world where revenues are drying up, job creation is null and void, (especially in Middletown) and most people are cutting way back on what they spend, not knowing if they'll have a job tomorrow. Haven't heard what any union would be willing to give up from all these Issue 5 protesters. Would the police, fire personnel, city workers, teachers and admin. be willing to give up a few years of raises, pay more than 9% on the premiums for their benefits and pay into their retirements like those non-union workers are doing to save the city, employer and the taxpayer some money in these hard times? Don't know....they haven't talked.
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 11:00am
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Viet-Vet, The statement about unions being about quality and productivity is a "should be" not is. It is obvious that anything automatic based on time must be changed. The merit system has to relate to the profitability of a private venture but how do you judge merit for public service workers? if a teacher's raise is based on student test scores, what kind of education will those students receive? Do police get merit raises on the number of tickets they write? Firefighters on the number of fires they extinguish? Something else that concerns me is the state of mind of the public employees. You are going to call teachers in a union slackers and then send your child to be educated by this person? What about the police officer whose told that he makes too much and doesn't work hard enough and then you want that officer to put his life on the line to help you? It's the same with a firefighter. We want good people in public service jobs but we don't want to give them wages and benefits that will retain them in these jobs. I agree that slackers, poor performers and those just not suited for the demands of public service need to be weeded out. How to do this without villifying those workers is a problem that collective bargaining should solve. Unions have already said they would be willing to compromise; take them at their word and negotiate.
IMO, the real problem stems from a lack of true leadership. We need ideas that will work in the 21st century, not those that succeeded in the past but are no longer effective given current realities. I don't see any leaders, Democrat or Republican, who have a clue about how to solve these problems. A real solution will require sacrifice and imagination; do we have the political will?
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 12:35pm
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TonyB- How do you evaluate teachers for merit? Percent of students taught by the teacher and % passing all proficiency testing. Have a qualified group of "class instruction auditors" who will evaluate in-class instruction for each teacher on an unannounced date. Evaluations will include content/preparation/accuracy of data, content delivery for effectiveness, class participation, interpersonal skills with the students, coordination of class activities, contributions to the school outside the classroom, etc. Auditors may include an assist. principal, a state level rep. qualified in classroom instruction, the principal, former retired teachers of distinction.....hey, I'm just throwing this out for a suggestion on how to evaluate teachers for merit increases rather than a blanket, negotiated increase with no evaluation or performance appraisal like we receive in private industry. The raise becomes too automatic with no verification of earning the raise when negotiated.
Police and fire.....how about the same concept with them. An outside auditor, coupled with input from local police and fire reps/management. They could demonstrate some of their on-the-job techniques for an evaluation team....something similar to an ISO audit like we have here at work. Periodic testing on job functions to ensure knowledge....ways to evaluate for merit raises. Got to be a better way than to just sit at a negotiation table and give blanket raises to everyone. The Teachers Union, Fire, Police and Public workers need to be evaluated individually and actually need to demonstrate job knowledge and contributions individually in order to receive a raise......again, just like we do in the private sector. You'll get your good people if job proficiency is demonstrated. JMO I realize union people would never agree to any of this. Puts them on the spot and might expose weaknesses to gain raises. Drastic, preposterous suggestions? Perhaps.....but what do we have now that would work? You mention "we want good people in public service jobs but we don't want to give them wages and benefits that will retain them in these jobs"....actually, IMO, we give them as much, if not more in wages and bennies than most comparable jobs in the private sector. I see their salaries in print. In some cases, I believe that the wages have exceeded what was originally intended. I don't mind them having benefits. I object to them paying only 9% of their premiums as opposed to 15-20% for the private sector. There is a significant difference in wages between a non-union manufacturing floor position and a union manufacturing floor position. Has been for years. Non-union shops have always lagged far behind union shops in pay. A non-union job would pay $12/hour when a comparable union job would pay $25/hour. JMO |
Posted By: middletownscouter
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 2:20pm
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Vet - Teachers at MCSD do get evaluated on their performance. The principals in each school already do the evaluations on the teachers (I believe at least annually). But the problem is what happens when the principal is incompetent or does not like the teacher they are evaluating?
I think evaluations should be performed by third party auditors, whether it is getting a separate group of people who travel around and whose sole job is to do the evaluations entirely, or getting the principal from one school to do the evaluations at another. For instance, get Dr. Suiter (Central Academy principal) to do the evaluations of the teachers at Miller Ridge Mr. Lolli (Miller Ridge principal) to do the evaluations of the teachers at Highview, and Ms. Stokes (principal at Highview)...well, she has no business being principal of a dog obedience school let alone an elementary school so she should just get fired. Anyway, you get my point. |
Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 2:46pm
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Vietvet,
We currently train twice a month, fire and EMS. A lot of training includes hands-on wherein we have to show we can perform to the level the department requires. Doctors, surgeons and EMS staff from the hospital routinely teach these classes.
We don't have the option of not being able to perform, that is why we train so frequently.
The State proposed that exact scenario with an outside auditor, state evaluator and area reps/management. It was ultimately rejected because those would probably be Union jobs and the mass of Ohioans would object to the cost involved.
(Be advised, the previous paragraph was satire and not true. Humor was the desired intent)
As far as merit increases, we already have a system in place to reward individuals that perform above the rest of the department, we call that the promotion process.
I would like the posters here to give me a salary range that they would like to see fire fighters make.
Ashkicker
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 2:58pm
IF the principals do the evaluating, why is it necessary to have collective bargaining negotiations? Shouldn't the raise the teacher gets be on the principals evaluation on a individual basis rather than a blanket contract for all? What purpose does the principal's evaluation serve if the teacher's union and school board negotiate? Please explain. I had suggested an independent auditor group to do the evaluations as you have also suggested in your post. |
middletownscouter wrote:Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 3:30pm
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ashkicker quote- "As far as merit increases, we already have a system in place to reward individuals that perform above the rest of the department, we call that the promotion process."
IMO, there is a difference between getting a promotion and receiving a merit increase. Receiving a raise happens when one meets or exceeds expectations with a higher raise going to the individual who exceeded expectations based on the importance of the accomplishments to the company. A promotion happens when a position opens up and there is still a need to fill that position. Sometimes one can continually outperform the rest of the department, but if there is no promotion openings, the high performer must be satisfied with the raise, transfer to another department that may offer a promotion opportunity or leave the company altogether for greener pastures. One does not always get promoted just because they continually receive high merit increases. Sometimes positions are not created just to promote someone. Might be done in your world of public employment but doesn't necessarily happen in corporate America. A salary range for a firefighter? Let's see, you do some medical functions on your job...is your pay in line with a similar level in the medical field? Part of your job involves risk and is dangerous. Is your pay in line with the AK workers who work in a dangerous environment each shift? Part of your day is cleaning up your facilities, sleeping, cooking meals, going to the grocery, washing fire equipment, training, etc. Is your pay in line with people who do this type of work? OR- do you think that you are at the high end or have exceeded most of your counterparts in each of these categories? All total, I think you probably do well as to bennies and salary and are in the high end category for a non-management position, living better than most in the area who are not high rollers. My guess- $45,000 to $55,000. You asked- I responded ...it's JMO. |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 4:29pm
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I don't necessarily have a problem with most of the salaries (except those of the redundant and unnecessary leadership spots), rather it is the generous healthcare and pensions that are really the issue. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 4:48pm
| Viet-Vet, How much more dangerous would that AK job be without union negotiations for safety? Involving workers in the decisions that affect their employment is a relatively new idea. Are you really advocating an end to all unions? Would you like to go back to the 12 hour work day? 6 day work week? That AK worker workes for the the company and himself. That firefighter works for the public!!! That teacher works for the public!!! You don't even bring up police; is there an equivalent private sector job? Why do you begrudge anyone a better standard of living? Equality of opportunity does not guarantee equal outcome. Do we really want the lowest possible common standard of living for workers> |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 6:50pm
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"Do we really want the lowest possible common standard of living for workers> "
One of the protestors made this point while also saying "we should be trying to raise the 3rd world up to our standard of living not the other way around". Bunch of mularkey. How exactly is that attainable? I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that day to come. And while you wait, be sure to watch the public sector workers inch up to the upper middle class, relative to the median income in this country, which will surely be declining in the years ahead.
The public sector has no idea about competition and job insecurity. Just look at how our city admin recoils in horror at the mere suggestion of cutting a few jobs in city departments. Or how our MCSD will cut bussing, special programing, anything to avoid trimming any personnel while Princeton just got rid of their Athletic Director. It's like a death in the family to them. Meanwhile, the rest of us know better than to keep any personal pictures or trinkets at work, knowing we could be downsized out the door at any minute.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 8:55pm
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OK TonyB- here's where I'm coming from so that you know how I developed my thinking. I have said before that I have worked for eight different companies ranging from 400 workers (Crane Plastics in Columbus) to 100,000 worldwide (P&G), General Cable and International Paper- big time players in their respective businesses. None were unionized. This has covered over 40 years working in research in paper, plastic, automotive and beauty care technologies.
In 1994, after 10 years at P&G, I was one of the thousands "downsized". P&G let me make the call when I wanted to leave and I stayed on another two months. In 1999, at General Cable, I came in one morning and started working at 8:30AM. At 10:30 AM, I, along with 340 others, were called to the front conference room and told that because of bad business decisions made by the CEO that quarter, they were recouping costs by letting people go. I had one hour to clear the area. In 2002, at Black Clawson here in Middletown, they closed the research center over on Jefferson St. and all of us techs headed to International Paper to work the next week. I have been downsized three times since 1994. Question for the union supporters and you.......Have any of you union people had to worry about coming into work and being told that you had one hour to clear out your desk and leave? Have you ever worried about being downsized? THAT is one big difference in the world you live in and the one we in private industry live in. Not to mention the lower wages for comparable skills and more out of pocket costs for our benefits than typical union shops. All I'm saying is that the union picnic may be coming to an end. It may come to pass that the union people will now be required to live in our world. When we non-union people do what we do and are paid what we are paid and see what union people do and what they are paid, there is bound to be comparisons made and those comparisons may not register well with non-union folks. No, I'm not trying to advocate the end to unions. Unions need to readjust for the times in their demands, albeit temporary. I'm advocating the possibility that reality might hit the union people at some point down the road and they will be brought to the reality that their employers (be it company, city, township or county)can no longer afford their demands. The party may be coming to a close on upscale bennies at minimal cost and upscale wages gathered over the years because there has been no checks and balances in negotiations. No one has represented the taxpayer footing these bills and the tax revenues are now flowing at a trickle for cities who still must pay out salaries and bennies meant for better times. School Boards, county commissioners, city councils in the past have given in to many union demands. Now, they are finding out that they can no longer do that financially and the union supporters don't like it. Both sides need to change the thinking. You ask... "Do we really want the lowest common standard of living for workers?" I reply...No, the best scenario is to provide the highest standard of living THAT WE CAN REASONABLY AFFORD. Not "begrudging anyone a better standard of living".....all should benefit from the highest standard of living possible WITHIN AFFORDABILITY FOR THE PERSON PROVIDING THAT standard of living. Will do no good to keep asking for more if you end up bankrupting the hand that is feeding you, will it? How long do you think you can keep raiding the till before it empties? Demands/expenditures up and revenues down = bankruptcy. Is that what the union people want? |
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 9:31pm
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Vet,
What an important and pertinent point. It is a question of affordability and we should all be honest and deal with it instead of the strawman issues.
Paul Nagy
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Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 10:32pm
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Let's switch this situation around just for the fun of it. Let's say that the private sector salaries were paid out of union dues that were collected from the public sector and the private sector only paid 2-3 percent toward health insurance , didn't pay toward retirement,and received step raises regardless of any expectations that was sought from the public sector. Let say each year the unions lost members for what ever reason, but the ones left were ask to pay more dues so the private sector could receive their annual and step raises just because they think that they deserve them and has always got them.
After years and years of this continous pattern the unions are running low on monies and can't afford other amenities for their members which are footing the bill.
If the situation above was for real,(which it is for private sector),would the public sector want this to continue or would they want change? You make the Call.
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 11:32pm
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Viet-Vet, thank you for the post and the background behind your reasoning. It is refreshing to find someone not only willing to express there opinion but give the background on how those views came to be. It shows that you have gained these views through your experiences in life and in the workforce. I think it only fair that I reciprocate.
I, like you, am a vet; however, I was fortunate enough to serve from Dec of 79 to Dec of 83 and missed both Vietnam and the Gulf War. I have worked in both union and non-union manufacturing and retail; worked as an independent contractor, drove a taxi and was a non-union employee of the City of Middletown. I've also worked for a non-profit education organization and the Cincinnati Museum Center. I've worked for minimum wage, salary, union scale and non-union wages. I've had no benefits, great benefits and everything between. It's a long rap sheet but such is the life of an anonymous artist (at least, that's what I like to tell myself).
I will tell you that my experiences in a union are not good. I was very unhappy with what I thought was very little help from the union in regards to working conditions. They got my dues, I got to chase a union rep around to get the runaround. My issue is that good unions provide labor with some leverage in regards to pay, benefits and working conditions. Worrying about losing your job isn't just a non-union; private sector issue. Union membership in the private sector is way down and based on current trends is not going to rebound. I don't even want to speculate what is going to happen with these bills. The public unions have already expressed a willingness to pay more for benefit and take less in pay. This bill actually takes their right to be in a union! There doesn't seem to be any negotiating in that point.
My question is who gets to decide what is "reasonable" for a standard of living? Do we decide that "3 hots and a cot" is all anyone can expect? If you haven't noticed, everyone is asking for more. America is the land of "Great Expectations". How do we provide the next generation a better life than the one before? If there are no jobs, whether workers are unionized won't matter.The wealthy are the ones deciding now what kind of living standard we enjoy. They make the money and leave the rest of us to fight over what little is left. Take a look at these charts and tell me what you think about this: http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph - http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph
Mr. Nagy, forgive my ignorance but what is a "strawman" issue. I don't understand the phrase.
Bill, thank you for your comments as well. Let me explain something; I could care less about raising the standard of living anywhere else in this world, the 3rd world , or any other. I'm not one of those protesters and I don't belong to a union or am I currently employed by anyone in the public or private sector. I'd recommend you take a look at the link that I posted: you'll see how wide income disparity has become in our country. This is where I'm interested in raising the standard of living, Middletown, Ohio, USA.. It's up to people in their own country to provide for their own standard of living. Quite frankly; teachers, police and firefighters should be among the best paid workers anywhere!!! They also should have the highest standards when it comes to honesty, integrity and professionalism. I'd like to think that this quote from Teddy Roosevelt says it all: "To whom much is given, much is expected".
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 24 2011 at 6:52am
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TonyB...thanks for the chart and info. on the wealthy. Surprised to find the ten most wealthy in Congress were mostly Dems. Wonder if Kerry's wealth is his or is his wealthy wife's (Heinz ketchup people, aren't they?) income included? The .01% down to the 1% range is staggering. Still not bad at $164,000+ for the 1-10% group. I'd take that and still feel poor compared to the 1 percenters. Looks like Wall Street and the CEO's are the big winners with the rest of us taking a bath on properties and income. Mercy this is so skewed and makes one angry to look at. No wonder there are alot of people who hate the rich. Where's Robin Hood when you need him? Thought the Bush tax cuts were to help the rich free up money to create more jobs for us lowly peons and to stimulate the economy. Also doesn't look like that is happening does it? Also looks like the people, who can afford to be taxed the least are giving the most and the corporations, who certainly can afford the taxes more than the people, are giving the least. This is bass acwards. Looks like we are taking it on the chin in payroll taxes too as they have ramped up over the years. This is opposite what it should be too. Need to put more money in people's bring home pay to create more spending and help with that higher standard of living you are talking about. Stats do make you want to hate the rich, don't they?
One more comment about your post.....I'd like to amend one of your statements if I may......you mentioned- "Quite frankly; teachers, police and firefighters should be among the best paid workers anywhere!!!"...insert high performing before the word teachers in this statement. I don't believe we should offer the best pay to any of these categories unless they are top notch. For example, based on the performance of the Middletown school district, I wouldn't necessarily be inclined to offer all teachers in this district the "best pay". Some haven't earned it. And just because a police officer or firefighter "places his/her life on the line every working day" doesn't necessarily automatically qualify them for "best pay" either IMO. They still must perform for that distinction. Military personnel, like the police and firefighters, "place their lives on the line (especially in a war zone)everyday" and you see what kind of pay they draw (even when you include combat and hazardous duty pay). JMO |
Posted By: Richard Saunders
Date Posted: Feb 24 2011 at 8:22am
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After all these years, if the union workers are still discontented perhaps their anger is misplaced. Perhaps it should be more directed towards the union officials who have obviously failed them, and less towards the taxpayers who are in the same, or often even worse, positions.
Likewise, it would be interesting to see where high union officials rank on some of those charts. I'd hazard a guess that they rank right up there with politicians.
And speaking of the rich, and getting richer by the day, politicians: Most were put in place by the hundreds of millions contributed by union leadership (paid for, of course, from union members' dues, whether the union rank-and-file backed the same pols or not.)
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Feb 24 2011 at 9:50am
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Vet, I agree wholeheartedly that best pay should be for best workers. That is the American way. It gives incentive to be better in your profession.
Mr. Saunders, you are on target when you say it is officials of the union that have failed their members. When you price yourself out of a job, you obviously don't have the best interest of your members in mind.
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Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Feb 24 2011 at 11:49am
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Vietvet,
Would it be possible for an employee to be promoted "when a position opens up and there is still a need to fill that position" and receive less pay than the employee who chooses not to move up but continues to earn merit pay?
Do you know the salary ranges of any of the career paths you have cite, medical, AK or housekeepers? I don't but would be interested to find out. More than once I have responded to AK and watched AK workers running from the building the public expects me to run into. I am not knocking the AK workers for protecting themselves, I am glad to see everybody out of harms way.
I've paid the $50/hour plumbers bill, the $75/hour furnace repair bill, paid the scalpers price for tickets to a Reds game (with players making millions) and even spent my $7 for a movie ticket (with actors making millions). While you may not have a problem shelling out money for other professional that do their jobs, you complain that police and fire jobs should pay lower wages (including benefits).
I know, it is your choice to spend money on tickets and you don't have a choice when it comes to how you tax money is spent. I have to believe a lot of those people in the stadiums or movie houses are the same ones complaining about my wages.
Do you have the same enthusiasm when it comes to the top of the food chain? I seen where Kaisch is the 12th highest paid governor. Shouldn't he be around 25-26? His political appointees will be making more money than their predecessors (I believe one post is a $44,000 increase). How do Ohio legislators get paid. Is their raise automatic? If merit pay is important, they shouldn't get a raise until the budget is balanced. Doing away with collective bargaining alone is not going to balance the budget.
$45-55K. Base salary is at the top end of your range presently. I guess my benefits put me out of your acceptable pay range.
Ashkicker
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 24 2011 at 12:49pm
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Ok ashkicker- here goes the response....
"Would it be possible for an employee to be promoted "when a position opens up and there is still a need to fill that position" and receive less pay than the employee who chooses not to move up but continues to earn merit pay?"- an actual example that happened for you....my grandfather at Armco Steel years ago.... he was a 4 high temper mill roller in West Processing. He was Zone 24 pay-highest you could go.(He was there 46 years so he worked his way up the ladder)- he was offered a Foreman position which would have been a promotion, but he told them no. He could make more money than the foreman with bonuses and overtime even though the Foreman position was higher on the totem pole and would have been a promotion to lowest level management. "Do you know the salary ranges of any of the career paths you have cite, medical, AK or housekeepers? I don't but would be interested to find out. More than once I have responded to AK and watched AK workers running from the building the public expects me to run into. I am not knocking the AK workers for protecting themselves, I am glad to see everybody out of harms way."...Guessing here- AK range for floor worker-25 thou to 35 thou (non-union)-(union) 35 thou to 60 thou base perhaps-medical...LPN- maybe 25 thou to 40 thou-RN....35 thou to 60 thou perhaps Just guessing here. Not my career field. Might be way off. Housekeepers- low wages at hotels I would suspect. "I've paid the $50/hour plumbers bill, the $75/hour furnace repair bill, paid the scalpers price for tickets to a Reds game (with players making millions) and even spent my $7 for a movie ticket (with actors making millions). While you may not have a problem shelling out money for other professional that do their jobs, you complain that police and fire jobs should pay lower wages (including benefits).".....I have paid them for these services too. Not all of this cost goes in their pocket. They have business expenses to cover for a portion of that hourly charge-truck upkeep/insurance, parts to install, paying employees,business taxes, building rent if not owned, tool costs, etc. What does that leave them per hour that is really theirs as take home pay? Have not been to a movie in years and went to my first Reds game in 30 years last year. Another party paid for the whole event- too expensive for my wallet even through a scalper. "Do you have the same enthusiasm when it comes to the top of the food chain? I seen where Kaisch is the 12th highest paid governor. Shouldn't he be around 25-26? His political appointees will be making more money than their predecessors (I believe one post is a $44,000 increase). How do Ohio legislators get paid. Is their raise automatic? If merit pay is important, they shouldn't get a raise until the budget is balanced. Doing away with collective bargaining alone is not going to balance the budget."....Nope- don't like the high rollers either. Think most of them are overpriced and get in the way in the workplace most of the time. Think most managers are corporate drones, have no common sense, are a pain in the a-- and have no people skills. If the state legislators work like the feds, they vote themselves a raise and no one is there to tell them they can't. Kasich can pretty well do what he dam pleases as to passing out the money to his boys and girls in his area. Voters forget that every time at the polls and re-elect the clowns time and time again. Assinine thinking IMO, but then again, none of us common voting people have a real choice that would be decent, do we? That's why we get stuck with the same 'ole same 'ole. As the Who said....meet the new boss, same as the old boss on the "Won't Be Fooled Again" song- Who's Next album. " $45-55K. Base salary is at the top end of your range presently. I guess my benefits put me out of your acceptable pay range."- wasn't considering the cost of the bennies package. Knew that would add to the overall picture. Just made the guess at an acceptable salary based on wages only. Again, you asked the question and I responded. If 55 thou is the base salary, and the pay could go up to what????? 65 thou- then IMO- yes, too high. Remember- you asked me to take a shot at a fair salary. Obviously, it was not what you wanted to hear but as I judge what you do, in comparison to other jobs that may or may not be close to your vocation, I would place the value where I did. If you are at 55 thou, then you have exceeded research pay for techs who have been working for large companies for years already. Very few techs will reach that level of pay be it large corporation or small company, no matter how long they work before retirement. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 24 2011 at 1:02pm
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Ashkicker, this topic really isn't worth the debate. Kasich is taking care of the overpayment and unfair ollective bargain mess in Ohio, Walker will do the same in Wisconsin. Ohio is losing or lost, 600,000 jobs over the past decade, second only to California and Michigan. You are paid very nicely with benefits, lifetime job security, and really face no more threat in terms of your life than me driving down the interstate daily to my office or get to the airport.
You cite $ Mm athletes make---they get it because they are entertainers, you are not. You wish to leave public service---do som go work elsewhere, you have that right. Our city manager is not worth her pay, nor the city management. They contribute so little to Middletown, including the law director. Their benefits are as good as what the state employees get in Wisconsin, coming to an end soon.
The union provides the security blanket, and promotion, its how all rise in rank albeit force or police. I know so many top executives who work ungodly hrs in the private sector, manage tens on $Bb in revenues, and last about 5 years, not because they aren't dedicated, not because they aren't bright, but becuase of constant resizing, downsizing, m'a's. You could easily wipe out 40% of the Ohio school system and national, and not miss a person's contribution.
The reality is, the only union that remains the least bit strong, is the public sector. The behavior and importing of the protesters from other states to Madison has been laughable, they are acting like morons. While others cling to their jobs, or have already been hit making $125Kk-$200Kk in the private sector, the Governor wants no cuts. They could care less. They are fat, dumb, lazy, and content. Just like Middletown.
I can't wait to vote for that public safety levy to be reduced, but pray I am out of this God awful town before hand. The rape, pillage, and burn has caught up with the public sector, and no one is going to allow the US to become Greece, with the execption of the union and Obama.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Feb 24 2011 at 3:29pm
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acclaro--how long have I been saying this on this forum?
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/24/opinion-wisconsin-exposes-deeper-state-budget-crisis/ - http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/24/opinion-wisconsin-exposes-deeper-state-budget-crisis/
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 24 2011 at 5:49pm
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spiderjohn, you were the first not only on this forum, but as far back as the old Middletown Journal. You pronounced properly, it was unsustainable, the double dip was wrong, and it would crash. You saw this coming I add, before the September 2008 real estate crash, a credit to you and the vision of these outrageous expenses.
You also pointed it out not all in the city, but also the school district. Teachers today with Masters think they have the educational prowness of a pHD from Harvard, with tenure and all the perks. I have many family members whom are educators and also in public safety, but simply put, these benefits are outlandish, and will bankrupt the city and the state. The country is already heading in that direction.
And what makes Middletown a particularly bad city? Because its a city filled with a bulf of unionized public servants, from MUM, to city hall, to AK. They pass these horrific levies, give no benefits at all, it took me a year to get Becker's attention to fix a storm drain before some young kid would drown and the city be held responsible, because they just won't give the citizens benefits. Its an outrage, and no one is taking this anymore at the stte level. Maybe enough will wake up from the slumber, and put a stop to what is happening in Middletown as well.
You have people with high school degrees, retiring with >100,000 incomes, and double, triple dipping. Its outlandish, they have little, if any pressure, and are truly treated as if tenured for life. Think about it---what has the city manager produced? Nothing. The same with the law director---other than ramming cases through the courts to get a $60.00 fee, its disgusting.
Well, at this stage, Middletown has put itself over the cliff. People know how poorly service is, the head fakes on PAC, Cincinnati State, and the utter lack of pride it takes one woman with enough strength to clean up a cemetary, then be spit on by virtually everyone at city hall, until its a week before a state hearing, then, its showtime, we need to get the $$$ in to match the Foundation, etc.
Middletown, you are a dead city. Many factors killed you, entitlement and feasting the beast, instead of starving it, led to its demise.
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Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Feb 28 2011 at 8:43pm
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Vietvet,
I'm sorry I posted some incorrect info in the last post. Here are the pay numbers for 2011.
Starting fire fighter salary -- $45,071.56
Top fire fighter salary -- $60,152.60
As far as health care, several years ago the city wanted to remove health care from our contract. We realized health care costs were rising and agreed to participate in the health care plan the City gives to non-union employees. Collective barbaining worked.
As far as merit pay -- to receive their step increase, the employee must reach certain certifications.
New employees start at Step A. To move to Step B, they must pass a written test identifying streets and landmarks.
From Step B to Step C, they must obtain a state certification for paramedic. This is now a moot point because every new hire must have a valid paramedic certificate before they are appointed to the department.
From Step C to Step D is a freebie.
From Step D to Step E, they must receive department certification to operate an engine.
From Step E to Step F, they must receive department certification to operate a ladder truck.
No employee can be promoted until they reach Step F. We have had employees that missed a step increase because they did not meet contractural obligations. We have had employees that never reached top pay.
"Binding Arbitration" -- The Union filed a grievance and won through the arbitration process. The City filed a lawsuit and won in court. Binding arbitration is not always binding.
We have willington taken 0% pay increases in the past (without going to arbitration) and have offered concessions in the recent years only to be rejected by the City Manager.
I don't understand the tech comparison and how I make more than they will ever make.
Acclaro
Have you ever been a fire fighter? I can only assume you have not been from your comments. I respectfully disagree with your road trip to the city and my vocation has having the same degree of danger. If you truly believe your comparision, you will never fully understand my profession.
I believe you make my point when it comes to athletes making millions. The public has no problem paying entertainers large salaries but feel those individuals that protect your life and property deserve a small a wage as possible.
Lifetime security -- The City has fired fire fighters in the past. I am always subject to discipline which could include termination. I know of no fire fighter terminated and returned to their job because this Union filed paperwork.
When it comes to retirement, fire fighting is a young man's game. I don't believe you would want 60 year old fire fighters dragging you out of a burning house. Therefore, we have a retirement system that allows us to retire after 25 years of service.
Ashkicker
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 28 2011 at 9:54pm
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Ashkicker, this is a circuotous argument that Kasisch will address, but I will offer a few comments. I have a relative that was one of the "Dirty Dozen, got nearly 40 years in, and pushed 63 at retirement. I have another relative who was fire chief in another large county by 71. I have been in fire fighting families for decades, and can tell you one of the "dirty dozen's" most dangerous deal was being trapped once in a burning building, that he realized he needed to follow the coupling out, as he could not see, you know what I am saying as you are trained. That's one time in nearly 40 years. I have personal friends who flew from Brazil to the US on consulting jobs, who had coronaries in air, and died. Middletown, with all due respect, is not New York. As for salary, your base is better than 30 year nurses with MSN's who work at Butler Cty, in fact, you have them beat starting out by $4Kk, with their 30 years, and Masters in Nursing. Middletown's head of health works part-time, and makes maybe, $26.00/ hr. You also have overtime, which you did not include. Throw that in, and you are up to an average of $55,000-$60,000 easily. The police have even a better gig. I have 4-5 generations of teachers that draw pensions better than OPERS, about $2600. mo, plus the Aetna insurance anyone would die to have. One in particular, got early retirement at age 55 associated with "stress". In the private business sector, he'd have been given short-term disability, returned to do the job, or be out of a job. The good life is over. An airline stewardess makes $21,000 starting out, usually has a BS degree, and fully certified in depth equivalent to a fire fighter, must speak at least two languages, and has no collective bargaining rights. |
Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Feb 28 2011 at 10:47pm
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Acclaro,
Life in danger once in 40 years, that's pretty lucky. Is that the only time they were in danger or is that the only time you recall. As for coronaries in the air and death, your last paragraph state stewardess' are "fully certified in depth equivalent to a fire fighter". Didn't the stewardess' do anything to save your friends? A stewardess' main job is being a stewardess. My main job is saving lives and protecting property. Middletown is definitely not New York, hey, we found something to agree on!
I make about $22.70/hour for a full time job, almost $3/hour less than the head of health working part-time.
Overtime is never a given. Sometime there is overtime, sometimes there is not.
Currently retiring fire fighters will pay approximately $1000/month for insurance for them and their spouse. I don't know how that stacks up against a teacher's Aetna insurance. Let me know.
We have had a few guys injured on the job, reabilitated but could not return to duty. Those individuals were forced to retire. I do not know what their disability pension amounted to, but the minimum was based on years of service.
Ashkicker
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 01 2011 at 10:29am
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Starting fire fighter salary -- $45,071.56
Top fire fighter salary -- $60,152.60 Looks like I was in the ballpark on salary. "I don't understand the tech comparison and how I make more than they will ever make" Very simple....if you are making a salary in the range that you have stated above, at $60 thou- top fire fighter salary, you are above where research technicians (my vocation) make. Some techs, with over 10-15 years in research and working for a large company like P&G or International Paper will make your starting salary of $45 thou. $50 thou is too high for large or small companies in a tech position. These "step increases"....are they in addition to the regular salary increases or are they the actual salary increases, just called a different name? If in addition to the actual salary increase, unheard of in private industry. |
Posted By: stewieboy
Date Posted: Mar 02 2011 at 12:00am
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The fire fighter starting salary is higher than a typical person with a Bachelor or Masters degree. I know because I have a Masters and didn't make that much after paying for 6 years of college.
The step increases are given out yearly. They are supposed to be based on performance but from what I have seen the bar isn't set very high and almost everyone gets it when it is their time. The step increases comes with a pay raise which is in addition to the raises that are bargained for by the unions.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 02 2011 at 12:17am
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These heros don't get overtime, don't strike, don't complain, and don't have collective bargaining. Who is overpaid in comparison?
http://youtu.be/9zI3lXSOt3c - http://youtu.be/9zI3lXSOt3c
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 02 2011 at 6:36am
| So stewieboy.....if true that the step increases are in addition to the regular negotiated raises, in essence, they are getting two raises per year. Wonder what the percentage of each is? The last 5 to 10 years, in the private sector, the raises have been anywhere from 0% to as much as 3% on average from my experiences. If they are doing better than this, it is another advantage that the union folks have been enjoying that the private sector has not. What are your thoughts on this subject ashkicker? In addition to the 9% union folks pay toward their benefits (to around 15-22% for private sector) and this "step increase" in addition to the regular raise per year, I'd say you folks are doing just a tad bit better than we non-union private sector people. I'm sure you can understand the reluctance to support your point of view from our vantagepoint.(assuming all this is accurate of course) |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Mar 02 2011 at 7:15am
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Ashkicker, thanks for all your comments and the work you do in our community. This whole argument makes me wonder why people in the public sector have been targeted as the problem to our budget crisis.
I did want to correct one point in one of your previous comments. You state that the public has no problem paying athletes and entertainers making millions. I don't have a problem with it because it's not tax money. If an athlete or entertainer earns his corporate boss $100 million, I see no reason he shouldn't get a good part of it. By the way, athletes and entertainers are union workers. As a matter of fact, all those talking heads you see on TV and hear on the radio spouting off about how unions are destroying the country, they ALL BELONG TO A UNION!!!. You cannot be on TV or the radio unless you are a member of the union; it is one of the strongest unions in the country!
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 02 2011 at 9:00am
| TonyB, you must have a son or daughter working in the department? FACT- 30% of the average public workr makes 30% more than private sector. FACT: the average public secctor makes >50% in benefits such as insurance, etc., than public. THAT's WHY they do their work and enter the field. Nice gig if you can get it. |
Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Mar 03 2011 at 8:53pm
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acclaro,
So you are related to Chief Brewer, huh?
Middletown fire fighter with a wife that is a nurse. She has been a nurse for 12 years with NO BSN, NO MSN and just a nursing certificate. She makes in 12 hours what her fire fighting husband makes in 24.
Soldiers heroes? You are DAMN right! (More common ground between you and me, that's scary) Am I mistaken or do soldiers sign contracts when they enlist? When I enlisted in the Marines, I had to sign papers. If they do, that makes them federal employees with a contract. Do they get a full retirement and benefits at 20 years (could be as young as 38) while I have to work a minmum of 25 (at 48) and possibly 30 if I started at 18? The City doesn't give me a signing bonus and pay for my education expenses. I recently attended a welcome home party for a soldier that was a cook, I thanked him for keeping me safe and he laughed at me! Don't get me wrong, soldiers deserve everything (and more) they get.
Working as a Chief isn't anything like working the line. The physical exertion isn't there.
How does my $1000/month retiree insurance stack up against that Aetna plan for teachers?
Overtime -- my overtime is based on a 51 hour work week which is much lower than the 40 hour employee. So, if we both made the same weekly rate and worked overtime, I get about 78 cents for every dollar you make.
Vietvet,
Step increases are given on a employee's anniversary date. Contractural raises are given however the CBA is structured. That usually equates to January 1st. In the private sector, is there a top pay? Do most employees reach that top pay? How does the private sector employee reach top pay? I would image the private sector employee gets a raise annualy until they reach top pay. My point is at some time the younger employee is going to get larger or more frequent raises to reach the same pay as the older employee.
I currently pay 10% into my pension and it has been discussed to raise that to 12.5%. Family plan medical is around $100/month, I think. I have agreed to pay up to $112.58/month into the insurance plan. If I pay LESS than what I agreed to in the contract, why is it the Union's fault?
Fire fighters and research techs are two totally different jobs. Two times in my career, I have met with the Critical Incident Stress Debriefing team. I can only image the stress of knocking over a beaker. Talk to me again when you go to work and a mother puts her dead baby in your arms and expects you to do miracles. I'm not complaining or whining, just giving you examples of how fire fighters and lab techs are different.
I have listened to people complain that I donate money to get candidates elected. Those elected officials then give me whatever I what when contract talks come around. What about the companies that donate huge sums of money to get the candidates elected so they will pass management friendly laws passed to line their pockets. Don't give me that tax breaks for businesses will create more jobs. With the bailout money given, we should be importing workers for the insurance companies, the auto industry and the mortgage companies.
Ashkicker
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 7:27am
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"Step increases are given on a employee's anniversary date. Contractural raises are given however the CBA is structured". So we can assume that you normally receive two increases per year? One increase per year in the private sector, if you're lucky nowadays. Has been for the 40+ years I have been working.
"In the private sector, is there a top pay?" Yes. In my experiences on a floor factory job and as a research tech., each level has a pay range. That pay range may overlap the next highest pay range. A highly rated "T-1" may be making more than a low rated "T-2" for example. If you do not get a promotion and are highly rated in your current level, you may receive a small increase in pay as you reach the "topped out level" in your pay grade. On the factory floor, the jobs have a range of pay, depending on the skill level required and the responsibility of that job. A machine operator is going to make more than a person packing parts on a prod. line. Takes more skill to run a machine than to put pieces in a box and seal it. If there is no opening on the floor for a higher paying position to apply for, you stay where you're at and receive small increases if you are near the top of your pay range. You must wait until a position opens up to move higher. Sometimes, that never happens if there is little turnover in the department. "Do most employees reach that top pay?"- At Crane Plastics, a line operator (lowest operator position on the floor) spends some time in the position running simple jobs until his lead man thinks he is ready to test for "A" operator. He tests and if he passes, moves to starting range A operator and begins to run harder profile jobs. This happens for Senior Operators also. Each position has several steps to warrant a merit raise. If you produce, have few defects and little scrap on a continual basis, it helps in the promotion process. You "top out" at the highest level of Senior Operator after 15+ years if you are proficient and pass all tests in a minimal amount of time. Lead man is the next level- IF a lead man position is available. They just don't create a lead man position just because a Senior Operator is topped out. If not available,then you stay a topped out Senior Operator with small increases up to a certain point- then nothing more. (or you transfer out of the department if something opens up or you leave the company for a better paying job and opportunity somewhere else. "My point is at some time the younger employee is going to get larger or more frequent raises to reach the same pay as the older employee"- Nope. Everyone gets a raise once a year at performance appraisal time (or if they pass the tests to the next level, but not two raises in a year) Based on merit/accomplishments/value to the company. Younger employee doesn't get more frequent raises over the older employee. Older employee may be the "A" operator and is slower and not as skilled at learning as the younger employee. The younger employee will go right past him. Everyone learns and progresses at a different rate. The younger employee may have demonstrated "A" operator skills long before the older one did and will make Senior Operator faster if he can demonstrate the skills needed better. "My point is at some time the younger employee is going to get larger or more frequent raises to reach the same pay as the older employee".- not if he can't demonstrate the skill levels to move up the ladder, he won't. Age has nothing to do with it. Demonstrating skills to achieve the next level does. How you perform matters- age does not when it comes to raises. Everyone gets the same raise/same frequency within the skill level attained whether you're 20 or 60. "I currently pay 10% into my pension and it has been discussed to raise that to 12.5%"- yes...we can select 0-5-10 or 15% out of our paycheck to go to retirement. "Family plan medical is around $100/month, I think"- that's cheap- my paycheck sees a hit of $300 per month for medical and $160 per month for dental coverage.(that's in addition to what the company pays) The medical is excellent with Anthem and I need it for my wife's many major medical issues. Otherwise, we would be bankrupt. The dental coverage sucks with a max. coverage cost of only $1000 per year. Hell, a root canal eats up $800 of that. Nothing left for fillings, cleanings, etc. Anything over a $1000, I pay for out of pocket, after forking out $160 a month to boot. Crappy coverage. "I have agreed to pay up to $112.58/month into the insurance plan."- company supplies my base salary as insurance. I purchased supplemental coverage at 4 times my base salary and have the premium taken out of the paycheck every two weeks. "Talk to me again when you go to work and a mother puts her dead baby in your arms and expects you to do miracles"- yes, you have the human element in your job. My job is the cold, hard fact of creating new ideas through research that will enhance the possibility of the company making more money. No human emotions involved other than to daily tiffs with the scientists and engineers of course.
"I have listened to people complain that I donate money to get candidates elected. Those elected officials then give me whatever I what when contract talks come around. What about the companies that donate huge sums of money to get the candidates elected so they will pass management friendly laws passed to line their pockets"- ok, what's your point? People in the private sector AND public sectors make political donations all the time to try and get the person who they may benefit from elected. Those elected officials who "give me whatever I want when contract talks come around" would be our city council who is suppose to be representing the taxpayer who is providing the funding to "give you whatever you want". I would hope (but know otherwise) that they would not "give away the store" at negotiation time. If they are,they are screwing the general public who is supplying the money they are giving away and are catering (caving in) to the union demands while ignoring the majority of the tsxpayers. Salary and bennie costs are 75% of the city's budget. Gotta lower that cost to get the budget in line with the poor revenues in this city. The city just ain't bringin' in as much as they are spending. The bailout money?....I think most of us know that was wrong to do. It was done by Obama and the Dems to support the unions for the purpose of gaining more votes at election time. I noticed that we taxpayers weren't asked if we wanted the feds to use our money for these bailouts. They probably wouldn't have liked the response. Wanna know the kicker....I voted for Obama and am a registered Dem. Don't agree with alot of his thinking nor where we're headed. Don't care for Repub Boehner nor Mitch McConnell either. More and Independent now than either major party supporter. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 7:37am
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VietVet - You are wrong when you say the bailout money was done by Obama and the Democrats. Which bailout? The one for the banking industry was done before Obama became President. Not that it matters because Obama is just "Bush Light". The stimulus package at the beginning of Obama's term was his doing.
Acclaro - I don't have any children so your comment makes no sense; not to mention that your so called "fact" isn't referrenced to any source. List your source, then we can discuss your "fact".
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 10:25am
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Now, I am not trying to start an argument. I am just presenting a few facts, and then offering a different point of view. (The compensation and political donation figures are from the Center for Public Integrity website. You can find them here: http://www.publicintegrity.org/articles/entry/2964/ - http://www.publicintegrity.org/articles/entry/2964/ )
Now, if you do the math, all of the above easily adds up to over $25 million, and these aren’t all of the public employee unions by a long shot. Next consider that some of the people may not want to belong to a union, but they have no choice--they are forced to join (or, in some states, at least to pay the dues). And yes, I am familiar with the argument that they enjoy the benefits of belonging to the union. But look how many of these union big shots earn as much, or more, than the evil, rich bankers and corporate officers!!! Talk about taxing the rich??? You folks are PAYING the rich, and doing so with money that first came from the TAXPAYERS!!! And another thing: out of the millions of your union brothers and sisters who are members of these unions, don’t you think that there is a substantial number who are NOT of the Democratic Party persuasion??? They may be Libertarian, Green Party, Constitution Party, Communist Party, Independents, or even <gasp> Republicans, and yet neither they, nor YOU have any control over where (or how much of) these MILLIONS of dollars in political donations go. Yet the money goes to nearly ALL Democrats!!! And again, these political contribution first had to be taken from the TAXPAYERS to be passed through you on the way to the wealthy union officials!!! I’m not saying whether this is right or wrong, I am just saying that this is DIFFERENT than the private sector. If I don’t like Walmart’s social agenda, I can shop at Target. If I don’t like General Motors’ political leanings, I can buy a Ford, etc. But neither you nor I nor any other citizen has a choice whether or not to pay taxes, so somehow my tax money ends up in Andy Stern's pocket and helping to elect Barack Obama (neither of whom are even my Facebook "friends", let alone listed as dependents on my IRS-1040)!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 10:32am
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A perfect example pertaining to what we are discussing.... today's Journal
City, union contract mediation talks fail At the water treatment plant in Hamilton, he said a Class III operator is paid $30.51 per hour — $5.85 more than in Middletown. Workers were asking to be paid $28.99 — an increase of $4.33 per hour, with no additional increases in the next two years. However, Mills said the city does a comparability with every union contract and it found Middletown workers are paid more than those in Fairborn, Lima and Warren, Ohio. If the workers de-unionize, the city would likely re-examine wages and other terms of employment to see if it compared to other nonunion city workers, Mills said. $28 to $30 bucks an hour to run a water treatment plant metering chemicals into the water system. You could contract this out in a non-union capacity and the city would be paying $15 to $20 bucks an hour. Article doesn't say anything about their benefits. Gotta include the cost of those also for the city. Asking for $4.33/hour on top of the $24.66 they are earning now to reach that $28.99 level. Quite an increase. The employer would laugh at this proposal in the private sector. City won't help trim the budget honoring this type of request. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 10:50am
| TonyB- all I know is that on the evening news, every night for a period of time, the discussion always focused on the bailouts for GM, the banks, AIG and other companies that were run into the ground. Don't agree using taxpayer money, without taxpayer permission, to bail already failed enterprises out of trouble. Some of these shops were union and with the bailout, continued to excessive wages, bennies and retirement programs. We're back to were we were with some of these companies before the trouble began. What good did it do to help the very same people who failed miserably before? And, why should some companies be kept afloat with taxpayer money help while others go under and the very same people who's taxes went to save some, ended up losing their jobs anyway? Look, I'm not anti- Dem/Obama. I'm not pro-Republican/Boehner and their agenda. I'm anti- all Washington, Columbus, Middletown government people. All levels have really overspent in relation to revenues in and have played their special interest game so long, it has caught up with them. All levels have really screwed this country up. The PEOPLE are the only ones left with level heads. The problem has always been who the people select to run the show for them. They are special agenda idiots who sell the people out each and everyday. There are no politicians who think like the people do. JMO |
Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 11:11am
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Mr. Presta,
So if I by drugs with my paycheck, I can blame my drug addiction on the public because they were silly enough to pay me?
When I gave my children a bowling bowl for Christmas or their birthday, I don't expect to be able to tell them which bowling alley to use it at.
Look, Unions have good points and Unions have bad points. If you think draconian steps won't be taken by the City, you are mistaken. One example, three Captains take a promotional exam to fill two Deputy Chief positions. After the order is established by testing and a very competent employee comes in second that has had run-ins with management, the second Deputy Chief position is eliminated.
Vietvet,
For two employees hired years apart that do the same job to make the same money because they perform to the same level, the younger employee HAS to get either bigger or more frequent raises.
Where do you get you information on the salaries of water treatment employees? I believe a lot of this argument is based on jealousy. I believe this legislation is a payback against the Unions.
Years ago the City contracted through Anthem for our healthcare. A committee researched other providers and found United Health Care would provide similar benfits at a cheaper rate. Subsequently, the City changed to UHC and saved money. All the Unions had a seat on that committee. Maybe changing providers would save you money.
Ashkicker
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 11:57am
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ashkicker-
"Where do you get you information on the salaries of water treatment employees?"- from the journal story today. "I believe a lot of this argument is based on jealousy. I believe this legislation is a payback against the Unions."- Not jealousy...just measuring what I believe a water treatment plant person does from a high tech standpoint and assessing what they make based on the info. in the article, that's all. Legislation is a payback against the unions.....perhaps. Could also be a legitimate attempt to help hold the city budget in line and curtail costs as much as possible. Being a union person, you will always view any change in the reduction of your current situation as an attack. I, as a non-union worker, may view that same situation as the city attempting to hold down costs to help the strained budget or an attempt to bring the perceived bloated union perks in line with the rest of the working world. "Years ago the City contracted through Anthem for our healthcare. A committee researched other providers and found United Health Care would provide similar benfits at a cheaper rate. Subsequently, the City changed to UHC and saved money. All the Unions had a seat on that committee. Maybe changing providers would save you money". No ashkicker, you don't understand. My employer provides the healthcare choices for me through the Human Resources Department. THEY shop around and get the healthcare package for all the employees. We select the plan from the healthcare program they have selected for us, that best accomodates our situation. We don't have the option of selecting our own healthcare provider. We employees don't have a "seat on any committee" to help make a selection. "For two employees hired years apart that do the same job to make the same money because they perform to the same level, the younger employee HAS to get either bigger or more frequent raises."- No...again... I told you before, AGE DOESN'T HAVE A DAM THING TO DO WITH IT. If you have a young person who is a level 1 machine operator and an older person, hired years before, who is also a level 1 machine operator, BOTH (young and old) will be making a wage that is somewhere in the pay range of what a level 1 machine operator makes. The "bigger and more frequent raises" you mention has nothing to do with AGE. It has everything to do with one performing better than the other. The older person may receive the larger raise if they are PERFORMING better. OR- OR, the younger person who hired in at a later date, started higher on the wage scale as time went by. Pay is constantly being adjusted to reflect what the current market is yielding for a comparable job in the area. Employers are always checking the prevailing wages in the area to make sure they are offering a competitive wage. The young person may start out at what the older worker has built their wages up to over the years. Adjustment of the standard of living as it increases as time goes by. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 12:18pm
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Ashkicker,
I repeat:
"I am not trying to start an argument. I am just presenting a few facts, and then offering a different point of view." "I’m not saying whether this is right or wrong, I am just saying that this is DIFFERENT than the private sector."
I especially do not want to argue with you on this. You and I have common ground on most issues (at least in my view, from what I've read), including many aspects of this subject. I just feel that in some aspects, the relationships between management and public sector unions are DIFFERENT from the corresponding relationships in the private sector, and therefore are much more difficult to properly fit into the equation.
Another example is the fact that public sector unions are able to help select (through elections) the people with whom they must negotiate, and who will approve, or deny, their salary increases. Can you imagine AK employees being able to elect the people who call the shots (for the management side) during their contract negotiations, and eventually approve their contract??? I doubt that there would've been a lock-out, don't you agree. I am just saying that it puts a different slant on things.
I was NOT trying to say that unions should be abolished or that I am in favor of "draconian steps" or anything else. I was just trying to point out a few specific items that may (or may not) be worth some consideration.
How much does the top person at your union make, and do you think he/she deserves it??? ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 1:30pm
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Unfortunately none of the posturing here matters at all.
This is beyond local or state--it is universal. NO MONEY is a very finite answer. Public sector workers will deal with the same health care/retirement meltdown as experienced by the private sector. Ash,vet,acclaro,Tony,spider are not to blame, yet we are ALL to blame for kicking the can down the road instead of facing the gorilla head-on. We ALL knew that this was coming, and it would be foolish to think that this can be easily fixed. denial is more than a river in Africa. Is the Republican response somewhat draconian(a term first used right here by myself when these statehouse rumblings began)? IMO yes. Is this what the general public wants? A very dangerous even split. Not that it matters, since now we can't afford anything less than this realistically. Ash buddy-- u tell me how we can fix this mess now. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 1:52pm
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Kick the Can is the right description, a fun game for kids under a street light, but a dangerous one which is bankrupting the country and others, states, and cities. When I re-read Ms. Moon's post in the other thread, it speaks of the "temporary" free-up of dedicated infrastructure funds by Kaup, and its positive benefit to the city, to have those funds (to pay payroll and such). 23 years later on that kicking the can downstream, the city infrastructure has crumbled with projections that it would have taken, what....>50 years to bring the streets up to par, and the sewers, at a cost of about $130 Mm.
The problem in Middletown not only is it affected by the statekicking the can downstream, but its own culpability, deliberate, calculated, that has left a crumble in every facet of infrastructure. The city needs to have that 1.75% increase reversed to 1.5%. That's a start.
A detective in Middletown makes $140,000 with OT, and these perks that F100 executives don't have in med and pension. In 10 years, the real affect of these actions will be apparent to all---including those in their head in Donham saying its even a brighter future.
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Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 2:32pm
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Vet,
Maybe you can suggest a committee to help alleviate your cost. If the company will only pay a certain portion of your health care, they have no incentive to shop around. For example --
The company finds a policy for $900/month and agrees to pay $600. You pay the other $300.
Company B's policy is $850/month. Again the company will pay $600. You pay $250. The company has no incentive to go with Company B because they have the same cost. Some people think the sun rises and sets on Anthem.
Younger doesn't necessarily mean age, especially in my analogy. (My mistake for using vague terms)
Employee A hired in 2000 starts at $1000 /week. In '01, '02 '03 and '05 he gets a salary increase of $25/week. In 2010 he is making $1100/week.
Employee B is hired in 2005 at $1000/week. If he gets a raise '06, '07 and '09, employee A gets no raise during employee B's raise years.
I don't view every reduction in my benefits as an attack. I make a good wage and I, like you and your vocation, feel I earn it. Can we reduce some costs? Yes. Can my pension be restructured to hold down costs. Absolutely. I have been on both sides of this fence. I have lost a couple of jobs when the companies I worked for went out of business. Was I happy? Hell no! I've walked the picket line in the private sector for better wages. The modest increase we received took about a year to cover what we lost during the strike.
Would it be acceptable to you if both sides would have sat down at the table and discussed this issue looking for a solution to benefit both sides?
Mike,
I am not trying to argue and I appreciate your support from recent posts. Unfortunately, some people feel everything written on this blog is the gospel. Before you know it, people will demand fire fighters live in the City because THEY pay my wages. Oops, some people already think that! (I am NOT referring to you)
Some people in the City still think the City gives fire fighters a stipend to buy food each day. WRONG
Some people think I make overtime every week because I work 51 hours per week. WRONG
Some people think fire fighters want to viewed as "heroes" WRONG Most fire fighters will tell you they are just doing their job. A sincere thank you is accepted and greatly appreciated.
Ashkicker
P.S. What is up with the Enquirer's front page story about Shannon Jones today?
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Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 3:07pm
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Spider,
Ok, here we go........................
Lets start with pensions. In the recent years, the pension board has clamped down on disability pensions. Less disability pensions will help free up some money. I don't how much that move has or has not saved. The pension board has steadily increased the amount retirees pay for insurance. Again, that has helped free up money. When our pension system reduced the retirement age from 52 down to 48, there was a large amount of police/fire fighters that retired and I believe that had a detrimental effect on our pension system, i.e increased costs. I believe the retirement age should be bumped back up to 52. (I believe the pension is looking at that possibility) Pensions should be figured on base salaries, not an inflated number skewed by overtime compensation. Some Members of my Union (just a few and years ago) had suggested offering overtime first to those Members within their last three years of employment to "bump" up retirement earnings. While the Members here rejected that move, I would not be surprised if some Unions do this exact thing to "bump" up thier Members retirement benefites.
In a recent contract, the Union offered to take a 0% pay raise which was rejected by Landen and Becker. That would have saved the City money. I would not be upset with a raise tied to the cost of living. Again, I make a good living and am appreciative of the money I receive. I think there are innovative ways to schedule off time to help reduce overtime. As I posted earlier, I pay less than what I am contracted to pay for health care costs and I personally am not above paying more for what I see as good insurance. I would not object to benefits and pay being doled out as pieces of a pie. By that I mean if COL dictates a raise of $500/year, we could mutually agree to $500 in wages or $300 in wages and $200 in healhcare or certification pay, etc.
Contrary to to what some people think, I DO care about Middletown's financial condition and what goes on here. Blanket statements about Dems, Reps, fire fighters, cops, teachers etc. only make people look foolish in the end. What Shannon Jones and the Republicans have done is no better than doing nothing at all.
My ideas are not a cure-all but it may be a start.
Ashkicker
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 4:33pm
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Come on Ash
Your answers are a finger in the crack of a dike bursting at the seams. We have waited too long to try minor adjustments. There is no money for future obligations, and nowhere to get mo money. The end is not down the road--it is here now. I don't expect you to like my thinking--I don't like it much either, however the truth is very painful to everyone. Your system has collapsed. Whomever is in charge of managing and maintaining it sold you down the river--just as happened with the private sector 401k/Ira/health care/stock market meltdown. much of your future went away at the same time. they just didn't want to tell you. Welcome to the club! We are all in this together |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 9:21pm
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Ash, I gotta follow sj lead's again. This debate really is not what will happen in Columbus, we know that outcome. Kasich has that covered. Its the council members AJ and the rest of the gang gotta spin to keep the train on the track. That should be an easy sell in Middletown and city hall, they sold out the citizens 25 years or so ago.
Ol Deputy Chief Brewer wouldn't bother with the Chief position, he knew the money was better with OT, and not the desk job. When I graduated from college, the private sector was where the action was. The pay was better, you still had some semblance of life-time employment if you kept your nose clean, and a pension. By 1985, those days were gone, re-engineering, downsizing, cost containment, continuous improvement, were the buzzwords for running lean. Add on 2-3 global companies constantly consolidating, and then reducing staff, and 401K's, and that game stopped 20 years ago.
The public sector though, continued on the feast. Retire after 30, hit 50, begin the double dip, even triple, and now you got a $150 Kk gig, benefits, what a life. What you seem to miss here Ash, is the economy is in shambles. Middletown as bad or will be soon, as about everyone is trying to move out. Without revenue and reducing property tax, who pays the tax that brings in revenue, that pays for staff? Look at AK, that is the case study in doing what is required to stay afloat.
Taxpayers pay the tax that brings in the revenue. In other words, the taxpayer is the boss, not the city manager. When the well is dry, which it is in Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin, they can't compete, industry and individuals leave. Do you know how many states don't have collective bargaiing, and function just fine?
Well, welcome aboard the "reality" club and the world of 401K, and seniority means natta.
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Posted By: Middletown News
Date Posted: Mar 06 2011 at 3:59pm
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Here is what he said last year. ------------- Please like our http://www.facebook.com/middletownusa" rel="nofollow - Middletown USA Facebook Page |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 07 2011 at 6:43am
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OK ashkicker and other union supporters.....from the Journal-Columbus Bureau.......
From the Buckeye Institute- A CONSERVATIVE based outfit- "The answer is not so clear-cut. “It is clear no matter how you slice it, that the total compensation package for state government workers far exceeds their private sector neighbors,” says a study released in July 2010 by The Buckeye Institute, a conservative think tank that advocates for smaller government". "The Buckeye Institute, which has posted searchable databases of government employee pay on its website, found that the median state government worker makes 24.6 percent more than the private sector peer — $36,858 compared with $29,586". HOWEVER.......we have conflict..... From another "think tank"-nonpartisan.... "A report by the Economic Policy Institute, a nonpartisan think tank focused on low- and middle-income workers, came to a different conclusion: Full-time state and local government employees in Ohio are paid 5.9 percent less than comparable private sector workers, according to the EPI. When accounting for annual hours worked, they make 3.3 percent less". Benefits.... Benefits of public vs. private workers Public employees do enjoy greater fringe benefits. "State government workers pay 17 percent of their health care premium costs while Ohio private sector workers pay 23 percent, according to the Buckeye Institute. Local government workers pay an average of 7 percent of their premium costs, according to the State Employment Relations Board". Quite a descrepancy in benefits contributions...7% for local gov. workers to 17% for state to 23% for the private sector. (Can you understand my lack of support for your cause with these numbers?) Retirement age... "Current rules allow teachers to retire after 30 years on the job; police and firefighters may retire as young as 48. Almost unheard of in the private sector, especially in positions lower than middle management. Most workers won't be able to accrue enough for early retirement with the wages and bennies they are given at that early age. 55 would be the earliest, IF you watched every dime and plowed the maximum allowed into investments from when you started working at age 19 to 25. Most can't do this as they are pursuing a home, a couple of cars, having kids/saving for college for the kids....no money left to invest or save for retirement. No vacations, no bass boat, no membership to the country club, no "extras" would be affordable if the desire is to retire early. Pensions/retirement accounts... "Workers instead often are given 401(k) programs that do not guarantee a pension amount when the employee retires. Also, private sector workers must wait until they’re 67 before they can collect full Social Security benefits". Actually, according to my Social Security yearly statement listing all the years I worked and the salaries made each year, if I retired now, at 62, I would receive approx. $1385 per month. If I retire in 5 years at 67, I receive approx. $1835 per month. If I wait and retire at 70, which I will do (if I last that long), I will receive the full SS retirement benefit of approx. $2400 per month. (All of my 401K's from the current and previous companies won't be enough to suppliment the SS check each month without working to 70- they've lost too much money over the years) The article is wrong by stating the full retirement benefits are realized at 67. Not true. It is at 70 according to these numbers and my yearly SS work history. Just some info. that helps re-enforce my thinking that we need to bring the union shop wages and bennies in line with the majority of the working world nowadays. |
Posted By: Middletown News
Date Posted: Mar 07 2011 at 10:47am
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Great Post VietVet! I'm ok with unions, but when total compensation packages get way out of line with my non-union brothers and sisters, then I have to say unions and their membership have crossed the line. ------------- Please like our http://www.facebook.com/middletownusa" rel="nofollow - Middletown USA Facebook Page |
Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Mar 09 2011 at 9:28pm
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For my final post, I offer the following:
Pay,
"When I graduated from college, the private sector was where the action was. The pay was better, you still had some semblance of life-time employment if you kept your nose clean, and a pension" So I guess back in the day you guys were complaining to the state and our Governor about the low wages and benefits in the public sector. Probably not. Funny how when you were doing good, that was okay.
Benefits,
Okay, I'll try is one more time. The City comes to us with concerns about rising health care costs. We remove the bulk of our health care language from our contract and agree to pay the same as non-unioon employees. Collective bargaining worked. While my contract allows the City to take more than what the non-union pays, they choose to take less than the contract amount. How is that my fault? If you pick up an item at the store that is on sale, do you demand to pay full price at the register? No Geico commerical will ever convince me the answer is yes.
Retirement,
Could you climb a ladder at 70? Do CPR for 15 minutes at 65? Breathe air and drag a 200 pound man out of a 1200 degree house at 60? I doubt it. However, if you would like to give it a try go to the fire house on Tytus and tell them you would like to try the Combat Challenge. Give me a heads up because I want to be there when you try it. The other day we had medic unit that ran their normal runs throughtout the day and around 2:30 in the morning starting running again. They got back to the station around 6:30 that morning. Somehow I don't think sitting at a desk compares.
Pensions,
Image paying into Social Security and receiving a monthly check in the amount of $0. Yep, each paycheck I receive in the private sector has taxes taken out that I will never see. Since you are all about fairness with the public sector, please write your legislator and get this changed immediately. After all, if you work your regular job and a part time job, you get credit for all those taxes taken out. I'm sure Kasich will address this issue as soon as SB5 passes.
How about a couple of other issues. Why is Kasich the 14th highest paid Governor in the US? Since he has never been Governor before, shouldn't he have started out at a lower salary like fire fighters do? What is going on with his cabinet appointments? Some of his appointees getting almost a $50,000 raise over their predecessors? Image all the jobs he could have created if he hadn't given out those raises.
I have to bargain to get a pay raise while State Legislators vote in their own pay raises. ORC 101 gave legislators as much as a 3% AUTOMATIC raise from 2002 to 2008. How does that saying about the fox and the hen house go? I'm sure you know.
Sick time is a benefit I have to bargain to get. What do our legislators get for sick time? From the Guidebook for Ohio Legislators, Chapter 3 -- "A member who is absence from session due to illness or other reason can continue to receive a paycheck if the absence is excused by formal action of the appropriate house." I wonder how many of the excuses were ever turned down. I know all you guys out there in the private sector get the same benefit and I am jealous.
What happens to the legislator that dies in office? Again from the Guidebook for Ohio Legislators, Chapter 3 -- "If a member dies in office, the law provides for the continued payment of the member's salary to certain individuals. As implemented by the House and Senate, any portion of the salary that has not been paid to the member is paid in monthly installments to his or her surviving spouse, children, mother, or father, in that order." So a legislator is in Columbus for a month and passes away. You and I are on the hook for 47 more months of salary in addition to the full salary of his/her replacement. I hear P & G, Lowes, Bob Evans and the Middletown Journal have implemented the same policy.
Legislators pay 10% into their pension and have the option to pay in an addition 4% to "receive an additional annunity on retirement." I remember several posters here having the same option in their company plans.
Recently I spoke with a House member and he said something had to be done to the collective bargaining process. His example was teachers in Ohio don't pay anything towards their health care. I asked him how much HE paid for health care. Hold onto the arm of your chair, don't let your mouse get away from you and adjust the screen brightness .........HE PAYS 0% to his state provided health care. I wonder what fairness smells like, probably the same as the bull barn at the fair.
Bottom line, House and Senate members can pass legislation to bring themselves into line with the Union members that are killing this state. There will be no protest, pro or con, no members fleeing the state to avoid a vote. Kasich won't have to get on TV and explain how legislators are killing job creation in Ohio. He won't have to explain how this legislation will give control back over to the governing bodies.
Will that ever happen? No, but Ohioians that go to work every day and risk their lives? Scourge of the earth! Blood sucking leeches! Heartless individuals!
Well, I guess it's time for me to retire to my palacial estate located on the lake overlooking my boatslip. The new bass boat will be here tomorrow. Since the BMW won't pull it, I will have to purchase a new truck to do the job.
I have always posted what I believe to be the truth, even when it didn't put fire fighters in the best light. If you want any more information you will have to call Chief Botts or Union President Harvey.
Elvis (in the form of ashkicker) has left the building! The music fades, the lights dim.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 09 2011 at 9:50pm
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Elvis, when times are good, there is revenue flowing into state coffers. When we have the worst recession, really a depression, we just don't have the complete Wall Street collapse, the issue becomes when the servants the taxpayer pay are making more than the public they serve. No more needs to be said.
As time went forward, it became wag the dog day. Collective bargaining and putting people in office became the tit for tat. Public servants got great pay and benefits, elected officials got put in office from those passing the collective bargaining legislature. That's when the train wreck began. This just didn't start a year ago, the problem has perculated for years.
Kasich will put a stop to it. Maybe we'll see you in Graceland soon. Thanks for the debate.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 10 2011 at 3:05pm
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ashkicker-last reply to your responses....
Pay- "back in the day" in 1972, I left the military as an E-5 S/Sgt making a whopping $360 per month. Went to Crane Plastics from 72 to 79 and left making $113 per week. Most of the pay over the last 30 years has been in the $30,000 to $40,000 range at all the non-union companies I have worked for. Exactly when will that "funny when you were doing good" thing suppose to start for me? Benefits- city taking less than the contract allowed. If so, they weren't looking out for their budget woes nor saving the taxpayer any money were they? Doesn't make any sense for a city to take less when they are strapped for money. Retirement- I ain't 70 yet but I can still climb a ladder when painting the house. I ain't 65 yet, but could do chest compressions for 15 minutes. I'm 62 and think I could still drag 200 lbs. around-probably not in 1200 degrees of heat though. That's for young guys like you to do. How many times a year would the medics run this schedule? Few and far between I would imagine. We all have worked excessive overtime hours in our lives. Hell, from 1972 to 1979, I worked every summer at Crane from 7PM to 7AM for 12 straight days, then two days off (spent sleeping) then back on 12 straight. Wanna know the real kicker on this? The pay...worked Mon- Fri straight time. Sat. was time and a half..Sun. double time, then on the next Mon.- Fri. straight time again because it was considered a new week even though we were on our 8th consecutive day the following Mon.
Pensions- don't understand your statement of "paying into SS and not receiving a monthly check. Did you not pay into it enough years to earn any income from it? Funny, I receive a yearly statement from the SS advising me of the income I earned since high school and what my SS monthly payment will be at 62, 67 and 70. Most get this statement. Why would it be any different for you? (again, unless you didn't pay into the system long enough) Sick time...never had sick time hour accumulation until I started working where I am now. First time in over 40 years I had this benefit. If you quit, you lose it. If you're fired, you lost it. Currently, I have over 240 sick hours accrued. Can only use 24 at a time per occurance. Probably never will use all I have accumulated. Only have 7.5 years to work. The legislator who dies in office gets his salary passed on? Never happens in the private sector. You die, the company cuts the money well off right now. They would never think to keep paying your salary to anyone in your family. The only money your family gets when you die is the life insurance claim payment. You are just a piece of cannon fodder for any companies nowadays. No feelings, no allegiance, just a paycheck and waiting for retirement. That's the world they have created now. ALL public sector employees, INCLUDING POLITICIANS, need to pay a portion of their healthcare package.(and into their retirement) To be fair....15% to 20%. This includes teachers, admin, police, fire.....everyone. The taxpayers can't be paying 15% to 20% on their healthcare package at work AND paying to finance the public sector's bennies through taxes. You're killing us! ashkicker says... "No, but Ohioians that go to work every day and risk their lives? Scourge of the earth! Blood sucking leeches! Heartless individuals!" No, none of these descriptions.... but I'll go along with the statement "you are enjoying better wages and benefits at less cost to you and IMO, your sector needs to be brought back in line for the sake of the finances of the cities you work for and to give us taxpayers a break in affording your services" Ash...we just can't give anymore-tapped out....broke......raise starved and behind about 20 years on being able to afford the cost of living all these years. As to the politicians you mention......I can see no other solution in dealing with them except euthanasia.
"Well, I guess it's time for me to retire to my palacial estate located on the lake overlooking my boatslip. The new bass boat will be here tomorrow. Since the BMW won't pull it, I will have to purchase a new truck to do the job". Now you've finally come around to our impression of you public workers and your country club lifestyle. Was that so hard to admit? Why did you insist on fighting us in this discussion?
Farewell ash. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 10 2011 at 3:20pm
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Elvis, I have to add to put the icing on the cake. The secretary to the Chief in the Fire Department started out at $44,000 and is now > $50,000 annually, with all those gravy benefits the city gets. Compare that to the Director of Nursing, Butler Cty Health, MSN, >30 yr Nursing, UNC grad, $42Kk base, Director of Epidemiology, MSN, >30 yrs Nurse, Miami, UNC grad grad, $42,000. Hell, the secretary for the detectives makes over $50,000 and Betsy Parr, a clerk for council, she is near $70,000. Look at Rhonda Freeze down in Butler Cty, filed complaint when making $83,000 tamed to $69,000., plus her Mayor court fees and cash. The RN's in Butler Cty make about $35 Kk annually and haven't had a raise in 5 years. Compare that to the pay range for a Middletown water worker, wanting $30/ hr, 240. daily, 1200.weekly, or about $65,000 annually with OT. It has ended. At least you got the annuity in Graceland coming to you. |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Mar 10 2011 at 3:25pm
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Vet, a polite suggestion to place your comments in bold or italics to distinguish from Ash's. Hard to follow. Anyway, Ash mentions that some posters have the option to pay in an addition 4% to "receive an additional annunity on retirement." Not sure that I saw anyone comment on that. Who out there has an "annuity" on retirement other than public employees?
And the comparison to the legislators is off target. Yes, they are getting too much and that should change, but their perks are small potatos compared to the unions.
In the end, would anyone of us making...say $20/hour go ahead and hire a house cleaner at $30/hour?
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 10 2011 at 7:42pm
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Thank you Bill for the suggestion. I will try that in the future.
My employer will allow us to place up to 15% of our wages into our 401K in a given year. Periodically, we have the option of changing that percentage back to 10 or to 5% if we choose. They match up to a certain percentage up to 10% I believe. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 25 2011 at 11:04am
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From the Soundoff in the Journal on Monday, April 25th......
Regarding the April 18 article “Public workers fare better than private with benefits”: This attack on public workers is getting shameful. I wish The Journal would post the fact that public workers don’t live as long as private workers because of all the stress and headaches. Now The Journal is just adding to the stress and headaches with attacks on public workers. Yet The Journal hides an article in the back of the paper about how the super-rich had their taxes lowered. If the United States and the state (budgets) are so bad, why are they lowering the taxes on the super-rich and why is it on the back page? People should be more outraged about that than some public workers having some benefits so they can live out a few years before they die. It’s shameful. We now have a public worker that is claiming that public workers have more stress on the job than private workers do. This claim comes despite the fact that private workers can be fired on the spot and downsized at any time, have no collective bargaining and take what the boss wants to give them, must pay 15-24% in payroll deductions for medical and dental benefits premiums, pay anywhere from 5-15% into their retirements while public workers pay a fraction of those costs and usually enjoy a higher hourly pay range for a comparable job. Nope, just can't buy into the claim this public worker is making. The facts and numbers don't support the claim. Hard to justify that public workers bust their hump when you walk into any government office and see how fast they're moving and the overall climate of the working environment when they stare at you, the client, with this blank look in their eyes and lack of enthusiasm to help serve you. Sometimes, I'm thinking of buying them all plumbobs to tie to their belt loops to see if they're moving or not. I find it real comical when the caller says that the public worker doesn't live as long as a private worker due to stress. I see that public stress with the state of Ohio workers along the roads with five people standing around watching the backhoe digging the ditch while the supervisor drives up in the yellow bubble light pick-up truck to supervise the hole diggin". Good comedy.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 29 2011 at 7:10am
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Today's Journal...
MIDDLETOWN TEACHERS ASSOCIATION Keynote speaker tells Middletown teachers: 'the governor hates us' Middletown teachers hear strong rhetoric against Gov. Kasich at the banquet. MIDDLETOWN — The festive atmosphere of the Middletown Teachers Association’s dinner banquet was briefly put on hold Thursday night after the event’s keynote speaker stepped to the podium. Bill Leibensperger, the vice president of the Ohio Education Association, spoke to attendees about the “battle” against Senate Bill 5 and the march toward a voter referendum. “The governor hates us,” he said as a hush went over the union crowd. “I don’t think I’m overstating that. It’s not about jobs. It’s not about balancing budgets.” Guess 'ole Bill and the teachers just don't get it either. It is obvious that the country, the states and most cities are cash poor, cutting services, reducing personnel, cutting back on purchases, etc, yet, VP Bill and some of the public employees in all sectors can't see the light. No, they are all upset that their cushy ride is coming to an end, they will finally have to pay what the rest of us are paying toward bennies and retirement and that the taxpayer has had enough, especially if that taxpayer comes from the private sector. Too full of anger to see the truth, I guess. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 29 2011 at 7:59am
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Vet - Public workers and "the cushy ride" ; sounds like a novel. especially since it would be classified as a work of fiction. Let's face it; everyone thinks their job is hard and everyone else has it easy. After all the venom about how public workers are the problem, is it any wonder that they perceive they are "hated"! I keep hearing the gloating about how public workers are "getting what they deserve" yet the real crooks; the leadership of this state, are seen as saving the state. How are they saving the state when Kasich gives unearned raises to staff who haven't done anything!? If you can't see that; then I'd say you are the one blind to the real truth; these bastards have workers fighting over scraps while they plunder and rape the taxpayer!!!
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 29 2011 at 11:23am
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Ok Tony. let's give this a ride again....
Cushy job for public workers (any government/union worker) when: 1. They have been paying 9% or less toward their benefits out of their own paychecks when private sector has been paying 15-24%. 2. Have had the taxpayer pay for their retirement packages AND they usually retire at an earlier age as an added slap in the face of the private sector taxpayer. I know some teachers that have already retired when I'm still working at 62 and still trying to build up my private sector retirement accounts to an acceptable level before I can even think about retiring.....AND. to boot, part of my taxes went into a fund to help these teachers retire early. Another boot up the keester for the private sector. 3. Union/public sector workers have had, for years, people that go to bat for them in wage/benefit negotiations and the wimps doling out the money to them, usually give in. Don't have anyone going to bat for us in the private sector. You are given a % raise and you take it or leave it. PERIOD No "negotiating" allowed. 4. They are trained and assigned a job. They only do that job and no other. They are not required to ask if anyone needs help doing their job if they are not busy. (this may have changed, but that's the way it was) Is the private sector jealous? Hell yes. If you were in the private sector all these years and saw the playing field being as uneven as it has been ....all these years, you would want this change to even it out also. We're tired of footing the bill while the public unions lap up all the gravy. We'd like some gravy too bud. Like I said, the public worker's bubble has burst and the gravytrain is over......and they don't like it, but want to blame everyone and everything else but the fact that their greedy negotiations over the years have finally caught up with them, IMO. They have priced themselves right out of city, state and fed budgets, IMO. As far as everyone thinking they have it hard and everyone else has it easy....Tony, I see what the fed government workers do on a day to day basis here at Wright-Patt. It would anger you too as a taxpayer. Layers and layers of un-needed/duplicated positions, mostly papershufflers and meeting-goers.....just like middle managers in the private world. They are all un-needed/costly waste, IMO. I'm sure Kasich has his share of deadwood in the statehouse too and should not be giving any unearned raises in good or bad times. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 29 2011 at 11:59am
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Vet - Let's continue this ride! It isn't the public workers bubble that has burst, it's the AMERICAN WORKERS bubble that has been deliberately stolen from them by inept management and the greed of the wealthy and their bought and paid for representatives. What I continue to not understand is that the people who created ALL of this mess are the ones getting the free ride! Who created the public worker system? That's right, politicians! Who signed all those "free" trade agreements? Politicians. Who downsized all these private sector workplaces and sent the jobs and investments overseas? Wealthy corporations who pay no taxes aided by their bought and paid for politicians! Unneeded and costly waste? Should not do something? Has that ever stopped politicians and their corporate masters? The gravytrain is over for everyone without power and influence. Look at what is happening in Michigan. Autocrats appointed by the governor that can usurp the democratically elected representatives to do as they please and think that their doing us a "favor"!!! Think Kasich won't be looking at that and licking his chops? Taking more money out of the public school system to support private profit and religious education is already happening. I AM ANGRY AS A TAXPAYER AND CITIZEN!!! I'm not angry at public workers or private workers; I'm angry at politicians who have allowed this to happen, the wealthy corporations whose only concern is making more money at any cost and the media who are complicit in this "rape" of America and the American worker!!! By the way, I lump the big unions in with the greedy corporations because while they claim to represent workers, they have contributed to the problem by shielding poor performing workers and with their outrageous rules that reward unproductive workers at the expense of others. Vet, I understand the anger and the frustration but I believe it is misplaced. If we don't fix this problem at the ballot box and soon, there simply won't be anything left to fix. We are headed headlong toward autocracy (if we aren't there already) and nothing short of a people's revolution can restore America and our democratic republic. These little cosmetic changes and all the blame and finger-pointing is a smokescreen. IT IS TIME FOR AMERICANS TO WAKE UP, TAKE BACK THEIR GOVERNMENT AND VOTE THEM OUT!!!
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 29 2011 at 12:24pm
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Tony B....
"IT IS TIME FOR AMERICANS TO WAKE UP, TAKE BACK THEIR GOVERNMENT AND VOTE THEM OUT!!!" And vote for whom? Can't get the candidates that we need to run and really change things. The people we need that will really make a difference are those that have other obligations, don't have deep enough financial pockets to combat the current cancerous people in office, or would be swallowed up in local, state or fed gov. in Washington by the corrupt climate in each level. When we all vote, do we really have a choice? Aren't the choices on either side of the aisle going to give us more of the same? The very nature of the make-up of a politician today requires a certain amount of corruptness and being able to be bought off by the lobbyists or they wouldn't last a week in Washington. Perhaps getting rid of the lobbyists and corporate influences in Wash. would allow the politicians to work for the people again. Never happen though. Been going on too long and the corruption is too entrenched to get rid of it. Would just like to see one politician say that they will not talk to nor take money from any lobbyist or corporation and really mean it. Hasn't happened yet, has it? |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: May 01 2011 at 2:29pm
| Vet - who is it that you want to run? Anyone who has the time to run either has deep pockets or has no job. My suggestion has been to vote for anyone that is not a Democrat or Republican. I haven't changed my mind about that. I agree with you about a politician who doesn't take campaign money from corporations or lobbyists might be the only hope. I guess we need to find us a lottery winner!!! lol |