The next big thing!
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: Community Revitalization
Forum Description: Middletown Community Revitalization News
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3406
Printed Date: Nov 22 2024 at 5:59am
Topic: The next big thing!
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Subject: The next big thing!
Date Posted: Oct 23 2010 at 2:31am
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This may be scuttlebutt, as I heard it at one of the local watering holes. But it came from a usually knowledgeable source, who didn’t realize that I was sitting in the next booth. There was a good bit of noise, and as many of you know, my hearing is not “20/20”. Also, I was NOT trying to eavesdrop. However, here is what I am sure that I overheard: The City plans to “give” (context?) the former Senior Citizen’s building, as well as other downtown property, to Cincinnati State Technical and Community College, for purposes in addition to the “culinary school“. Other downtown structures were mentioned during the conversation, but I am not certain of the context. These may or may not have been in conjunction with Cincinnati State, but the entire part of the conversation that I overheard seemed to be about that subject, so I tend to think they were somehow connected. There was a price paid for my clandestine activity. Since I was not giving full attention to the conversation at OUR table, I must have uttered one too many absent-minded “uh-huh” and somehow agreed to pick up the tab!!! Now some of you may think that this will be a good thing (I’m talking about Cinci State, not my picking up the tab--me picking up the tab is always a good thing!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
) others may not be so sure, but if I’m not mistaken didn’t the Middletown Art Center (MAC) have their eye on that former Senior Center building??? Bad luck for them!!! Oh well, we have Pendelton. We don’t need MAC so much anymore, do we???Replies:
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Oct 23 2010 at 6:20am
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Mike
The Manchester Inn will be closing at the end of the year and I believe the City will move heaven and earth to keep this building from becoming vacant. (Nothing like looking out the 4th floor windows of City Hall on a big brown empty building) What a view!
After the give away deal we handed to PAC pray tell me why Cincy State wouldn't just sits back and wait for our desperate City to give them whatever deal they request. The new owners of the Manchester will need some big bucks to restore the building...Sooo will the City give them a grant (gift) to sweeten the deal? While many thought the PAC deal was a great addition to the downtown it also tells outside investors the value of other real estate downtown. However just last year the City paid over a $100,000 each for properties just down the street so they could demo them....hmmmm So what is the real value of downtown real estate ? Well Mike we shouldn't worry because PAC will be having their Grand Opening in about 30 days. |
Posted By: TANGO
Date Posted: Oct 23 2010 at 8:33am
| I do not agree with giving tax payers money or property to private business, other local communites are doing the same and offering money to get business in. |
Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Oct 23 2010 at 10:23am
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I wouldn't consider what the city is doing as "bringing in business".
If no one has a job how will they spend money at these new "business" locations ?
People on section 8 and welfare,low income families are not going to culinary school or rent space in an art studio. People at city hall that are making $130,000 per year are either delusional or having some major grandiose thoughts or both. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Oct 24 2010 at 8:42pm
Why of course not!!! Are you crazy??? Our city does NOT give "grants"!!! We cannot afford to give "grants". It would be irresponsible for the city to give grants, especially with our worsening budget outlook.
We do, however, give "forgiveable loans" that never have to be repaid under ANY circumstances, but those are NOT "grants".  ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Vivian Moon wrote:Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 7:23am
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The creative giveaways for this project will make the PAC look like very small potatoes.
Has considerably more up-side potential though.
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Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 8:51pm
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I am very suspicious of city council or any government agency giving grants, loans, or the like to private industry, but I might bring up the example of Armco--Mike, I think you might remember this:
I am pulling from my memory, which also isn't what it used to be, but as I remember it, according to "True Steel" by Christy Borth, on or about the year 1900 Middletown city council agreed to give $25,000 to George Verity's American Rolling Mill Company if it agreed to locate in MIddletown, provided that the payroll reached some certain level (that level was either not mentioned in the book or it escapes me at present). Now of course, $25,000 in the year 1900 is probably more like $2,500,000 in today's dollars, so it was a pretty sizable grant on the city's part. I think it's safe to say that grant turned out pretty well for the city. What would Middletown be today (or ever been) if Armco had not come here?
As I said, I am suspicious of governments giving grants or favorable loan terms to businesses, but isn't this just effectively a tax break on the city's part to entice a business to locate here? And given that the business/entity will generate payroll taxes for the city coffers, isn't this just an investment in future tax receipts on the city's part? When viewed in this context, grant money for business investment is about the best possible use of city funds, since it represents an investment in future cash flows back to the city, as opposed to simply paying city employees, which could be defined as "consumption" on the city's part. This is assuming that the city makes prudent use of grant money, of course. And if they give some vacant or nearly vacant buildings as enticement for Cincinnati State to come here then I think it's a no brainer that they should pursue this. What is the true cost to the city?
So I think it behooves all of you to not rush to judgment one way or another on this issue--it may turn out to be a great investment on the city's part. Time will tell. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 9:52pm
| I thought it was more like $75k. |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 10:05pm
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Perhaps it was $75K; if so, consider the city's grant to be about $7,500,000 in today's dollars. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 11:46pm
Yes, I did read "True Steel" back in the late '60s. Great book, in my humble opinion.
Yes, the "gift" to Mr. Verity paid off handsomely to the citizens, but did you notice the STRINGS that our early city leaders had the foresight to attach to that "gift"??? I must've missed any similar proviso attached to the "forgivable loan" to PAC. Can you educate me, please??? ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 9:47pm
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Mike,
Yes, I agree it was wise to attach a string like that in the grant to Armco. And I know of no such proviso in the current forgivable loan to PAC. But if you think about it, having a forgivable loan is actually a better position for the city to be in than the deal offered to Armco. If Mr. Verity's company had reached some certain employment level, and then he decided for whatever reason, to shut down the Middletown mill, the city would still, under the terms as you and I understand it, have had to give him the money.
In the case of the PAC, the city can forgive it or it can simply hold the note for as long as it likes. Is this forgivable loan simply a grant disguised as a loan--a wolf dressed in sheep's clothing, as it were? I don't know. But, combined with the Cincinnati State news, it seems possible that some semblance of a downtown revitalization might take place. And spending the money (is it $400K or so?) to get something started downtown actually doesn't bother me when compared to the other ways that the city spends its money, since this will hopefully represent an investment in future tax receipts to the city rather than consumption on the city's part.
What does this money (say it is $400K) buy us elsewhere in city services? I guess for $400K we get about 4 firefighters for a year, we get some short street paved, or we get some grass cut. In my opinion, it is well worth the risk to try to entice an institution with somewhat of a proven model (PACs in Cincinnati and Ashland, Ky, I believe) in order to spur some development. After all, it isn't as though anyone is beating down the doors to invest in Middletown.
In closing, I will say I am skeptical of things like this, that some dunce(s) on city council will be duped by some "investor" with grand plans for some enterprise in Middletown, but in this case there seems to have been some vetting and there is something of a proven track record of success. Again, time will tell. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 9:50pm
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And Mike, you questioned the city's logic on PAC, which I think should rightfully be questioned, but this forum started out as being about Cincy State.
Are we to assume that, based on what we know so far, you are of the mind that the city made a good move in that Cincy State deal? ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 3:41am
Well, I have thought about it, and this city’s idea of a “forgivable loan” is in no way a better position for the city to be in than the deal offered to Armco. In the case of Armco, if Armco failed to live up to their end of the bargain, the city was in a position to seize all assets, sue their pants off, and at least attempt to recoup their investment. In the case of PAC, the “forgivable loan” is a “loan” in name only. There are no terms or requirements for “repaying” the loan EVER, under ANY circumstances!!! (Yes, I have read the contract documents included in the workbook and made part of the legislation.) The “loan” is $200,000 that Verdin gets to use, in addition to the money already spent by the city, to upgrade, remodel and outfit the property as he sees fit. All PAC has to do is to “remain in operation” for ten years and not only is the “loan” forgiven, but also Verdin gets free, clear title to 7 N. Broad St. There is no definition of “remain in operation”. If PAC “ceases operation” during the ten years, the property reverts to the City, after Verdin has 30 days to clear out everything of value and “vacate the premises”!!! There are absolutely NO TERMS for payments of ANY KIND under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!! Referring to this arrangement as a “loan” is akin to referring to the Grand Canyon as a “ditch”!!! Verdin either sticks around and ends up owning the property, including the taxpayer-financed improvements, or he washes his hands and walks away whenever he feels like it. PAC can “remain in operation” without ever having even ONE employee, or the city seeing even one red cent of tax revenue!!! All he need do is lease out a few “studios” to “artists” who can then choose to sell their wares (or not) WHEREVER they care to sell them. As far as the “proven track record of success”, I believe that I wrote about the differences between Rising Sun (a rural location with two casinos that bring in thousands of visitors EVERY DAY with HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of dollars of disposable income) and the PAC Cincinnati location (an area which also has THOUSANDS of visitors, commuters, shoppers, lawyers, etc. EVERY DAY and is within a short distance of DOZENS of other art galleries, art schools, and the like, etc.) before, so I won't bore the regulars by repeating. Comparing these two locations with Middletown is simply NOT apples-to-apples. The most apropos comparison is Ashland, KY. Do you know anyone who has actually BEEN to PAC, Ashland??? I have…about two years ago…and I just did NOT see all of the development that others speak of, and goodness knows that, after PAC closed on that Friday evening, my wife and I desperately looked for somewhere to dine and perhaps have a few drinks. We gave up, settled for fast food, and went back to our motel. I might note that we had no trouble finding a park within fifty feet of PAC’s front door that Friday evening, and I didn’t even take the “handicapped” spot, though I am able to legally use one. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 9:56pm
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Mike,
I will grant your points about the suspect nature of the loan. But it's $200K--I would ague that it's not that bad a deal for the city. And if we elect leaders who are smart enough to hold PAC's feet to the fire about remaining in operation then I think it's worth a shot to bring them to town. We will better know if it was worth it in about 5-10 years.
But back to my next question--what are your thoughts on Cincy State? Is this fundamentally different than PAC? If so, why? If not, why oppose PAC but not Cincy State?
I am beginning to think that you avoid answering the difficult questions, questions which challenge your reasoning and assumptions...a shame that would be if someone as clearly passionate as you are won't reply to questions that aren't easy to answer. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Oct 29 2010 at 4:50am
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First, let’s be real and stop throwing around the word “loan”!!! This is NOT a “loan” by any stretch of the imagination. There are no terms for city leaders, smart or stupid, to hold Pac’s “feet to the fire” over. They either stick around and keep a few studios rented, or they pick the place clean an walk away whenever they so desire. In NO EVENT are they EVER required by ANY terms to repay anything. And it is NOT just the $200,000. There has also been an unreported amount spent before that just preparing for the remodeling (cleaning, mold remediation, etc., which I have heard totaled a 6-figure number, but cannot verify.) There is also a matter of nearly $200,000 in back property taxes that must be paid before the city can provide clear title.
However, this IS “fundamentally different than PAC”!!! CSTCC is a public college under the authority of the Ohio Board of Regents. Pendleton Art Center is a private company. If I have to explain this fundamental difference (and the use of public funds in the support of the two) to you, there is no use continuing. Was this intended as a “trick question”???
YOU, for example, chose NOT to consider the subject of recall until you know who will be running for the recalled seat. Others think that the decision “to recall or not to recall” is the first step. I, personally, do not think that waiting for a little more information on the Cincy State matter is ducking the question by any stretch of the imagination. Heck, I may end up being completely against it, or I may end up donating to the cause. It may depend upon how badly City Hall screws up a good thing. Will they insist on putting some of their “FOCs” (Friends Of City hall) in a position to profit??? Who knows??? But I will say this, I post on whatever topics I choose to post. I do so under my own name. I present the same views in public, when appropriate, and have offered to debate public officials, or anyone else in any forum ON AN EQUAL, LEVEL FIELD if they disagree!!!I extend the same offer to you!!! Name the time, place, and suggest a moderater!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Oct 29 2010 at 5:14am
Heck, the best info I have so far, I overheard in a local bar!!! Do you want me to take a stance based on THAT, and then be criticized by all of the local muckety-mucks for spreading rumors??? (Although I must admit, everything I heard matches what has been reported so far in The Journal...but THAT doesn't make it so.)
PS: You can "assume" whatever you'd like. That doesn't make it so. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 1:19am
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From a Middletown Journal story updated 11:48 PM Friday, October 29, 2010:
This also matches what I overheard last week in a local gin mill.
If “Sonshine Products” is the building on the northeast corner of Manchester Avenue and N. Main Street, I believe this property is owned by Manchester Enterprises, Inc., so I believe that it, like the two bank buildings, is at least partially owned by the estate of Mr. Thatcher (or his heirs or assigns). If the “lot at 105 Main St.” is the parking lot next door to this building, it could be likewise owned, or is possibly already owned by the City of Middletown.
So the question remains: How much will it cost the cash-strapped citizens of Middletown to acquire these properties and prepare them for Cincy State??? Of course I agree with the general idea of another institution of higher learning in our city, but we have not heard any details. Criticize me and call me a “naysayer” if you’d like, but “cheerleading” for this venture while having no idea of the price tag is a questionable stance at best. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 6:59am
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I agree that it is too soon to get too giddy about this news. When will the other shoe drop? I have a feeling once news concerning the financing of this venture are made public we're not going to like what we hear.
And now they're talking about using the other bank buildings downtown? I guess it's good news but I feel like we're trading all of downtown for a venture that will not SIGNIFICANTLY enhance the tax base.
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Posted By: PattiGal
Date Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 7:22am
Hey Mike...sometimes I also hear a tidbit or two out there...most recently I've heard that Cincinnati State is just ONE thing...there are more really good things to come. Wouldn't that be amazing? I could applaud for Middletown even louder!!!  ------------- "Because nice matters..." |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 7:58am
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Patti,
I'm all for good news. This town could certainly use some.
However, the devil is often in the details. "Good news" from One Donham Plaza is often like those internet emails that that begin with:
It isn’t until after about four or five flowery paragraphs describing how fortunate you are and how wonderful it will all be, that it is finally revealed that:
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 11:22am
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Mike,
No trick was intended in my question about whether Cincy State was different than the PAC deal--I simply wanted to know where you stood on the issue. I wanted to see whether you are against all transfers of city assets without some type of sale or auction mechanism in place, or whether you are ok with the transfer of city assets to other government entities--in this case, Cincy State. While their is a clear distinction in government vs. private use of these assets, it wouldn't be unreasonable for a person to be opposed to the deal on the grounds that the city is giving up too much (although I don't think the city will have to give up all that much relative to the scope of the project, given the propensity of government-sponsored educational institutions to spend as if money grows on trees...but that's another matter. So I'm fairly confident Cincy State will come, and will bring their checkbook with them.
I am also acutely aware that PAC is a private enterprise while Cincy State is public (but being "public" often times burdens the taxpayers far more than private enterprise, given the heavy state subsidies on public higher education). But again, to my points about the size of the grant/loan (I am with you that it may be a grant in a not-very-good loan disguise, so I don't understand your agitation with regard to this point), since you have provided a $200K figure over 10 years, this amounts to $20K/year, plus the remediation/other costs. $20K/year is not worth losing sleep over, and frankly it's a good use of the city money when you consider what else the city can buy with $200K (two firefighters for a year, etc)...which brings me to my point about the best possible use of city dollars. The best possible use of city dollars is an investment that brings in future cash flows to the city in the form of income tax receipts, which may be spurred in part by such grants. Your point about how the city could have sued Armco over its grant is incorrect, since as we both seem to understand it, the terms of the grant were that once Armco met a certain payroll level, the city would fork over the cash to Armco. Thus, there would have been no recourse for the city under those circumstances, but in the case of PAC if the deal is first arranged as a loan then the city does have some leverage. Also, your analogy with the Grand Canyon is an invalid one, since the reference to the funds provided to PAC are not questions of size and scope (the dollar amounts are largely known) but rather the questions center around the true nature of the funds--is it a subsidy, a loan, a grant, a tax incentive? All are financing in one form or other, and each presumably has its initial investment (cash outflow by the city) and each has its cash inflows (in the form of future income tax receipts or loan/interest repayments). So don't confuse the nature of the matter at hand.
I will applaud you for being willing to wait until the full details are known, but again, you seem to be selectively choosing your points to make, since I had said "based on what we know so far," what is your position. If you can't make up your mind based on the facts known, then ok. It is perfectly fine to wait until the full details are known. I have been part of no executive sessions, I have no secret wiretaps to reveal, I have nothing to offer other than what has been in the Journal and what has been posted here.
To your points about being willing to answer the difficult questions--no, I am not new to Middletown and I have not read all of your one-thousand, seven-hundred, twenty-one posts on this site, nor do I intend to. I raised the point about you being unwilling to answer difficult questions for a couple of reasons--in another discussion you seemed to reference people in the historic district getting grants/funds from they city for use in their homes--when/where/how much did these transfers of cash occur? You did not answer that question to my knowledge, and I am genuinely interested in knowing more about this issue. In addition, I was curious to know why you went off on a tangent about PAC in a forum that began about Cincinnati State, since you are reluctant to give any credit to the city before the full details of the Cincy State deal are known but you are quick to jump on the city's case about PAC before the full details of that deal are known (you yourself brought up the remediation costs, which are not known, and the final outcome of that deal seems to be in flux, given the fact that PAC may in fact repay the loan in full).
As far as your "generous" offer to debate anyone, anytime, anywhere, isn't that what we're doing here? Aren't we already debating the issues and facts? Does debating in person with known identities change the outcome or the reasoning behind the debate? No, it does not. The facts are what they are, the issues remain as they are regardless of the nature of the forum. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 1:37pm
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VOR, while wild exuberance permeates throughout Middletown on PAC and Cinci State, lets use facts as a basis of summarizing the rationale which compelled these events to materialize.Middletown hs lost thousands of jobs and has been unconscionably behind in every major trend in the past 30 years, causing suffering and economic calamity to its residents.
As an outcome, with literally block after block of empty property and an eyesore from corner to corner with particularities to the downtown, the city is giving property and making sweet- heart deals to many entirties; the most recent PAC and Cinci State. Hence, to suggest credit is due the city for giving buildings and property away or making sweetheart deals to bring in a few entities that would be an alternative to buildings sitting like a wasteland is hardly deserving of merit and hoopla. The realsim is as Cinci State would be the first to state, there is still $15 Mm which may need to be invested (or >), and this is not a done deal. And if it does come to fruition, it will only be attributed to Middletown being in such a poor economic state, that PAC and Cinci State realize the deals may be so attractive, they should not walk away from such "sweetended" deals.
Using your logic, city council and city hall should be applauded for creating a wasteland downtown, but be praised as an outcome, for virtually giving property away,or creating such low leasing arrangements (recall---the city will not pay property tax on the buildings and neither will PAC nor Cinci State associated with lease agreements), based upon two Cincinnati entities having a northern presence. In my mind, that does not constitute praise nor "job well done."
In allprobability, it saves the Manchester from being saved the pain and anguish of the wrecking ball, and the capital loss associated with capitalized upgrades and expenditures. While delighted Middletown and more importantly, students, may have the benefit of not driving to Cincinnati, the recourse provided in this chain of events was give away property and make leasing dirt cheap, or have the wrecking ball bring the buildings down.
Many would call these actions having a "fire sale", but others call it progerssive "regionalism". At least the audience for thesummerconcert series The Bash will have a few more patrons, with the Cinci State deal doesn't collapse. I remain suspect as to how many students fill up the campus, however than getting Pell grants and loans.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 2:43pm
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Now that this conversation has broadened, I would like to throw in my $.02 worth of layman thinking.
IMO due to un-necessary haste, pressure and paranoia, the "city" dived into this situation ass-backwards.
When comparing the Cincy State project and PAC, PAC is truely small potatoes or less.
With all indicators well-known that C St was a deal strongly in the works, and the properties involved also well-known, if patience had been put into play resolving the C St. situation first, the "city" would have had a much stronger hand to play in the PAC deal. No huge desparation giveaways, Council theatrics, or rendering other adjacent area properties less than worthless(actually C St. will be another much more worthy beneficiary of private property "giveaways" at the public expense). PAC would have had put a LOT more skin into play to get into this game IF they REALLY wanted to be here. Actually--with C St coming, the PAC deal probably wasn't necessary or important at all.
As C St comes to fruition, that PAC property would have been much more marketable,. Still--the only properties that will have changed hands so far have been either "city" giveaways + many more $$, and private properties "gifted" by the "city"(after they are purchased with taxpayer funds of course).
Our ED Dept. and city staff, as "experts", are obligated to serve the citizens in the best fiscal manner. Seems that they might be taking the quick/easy way by giving us away un-necessarily.
The PAC project has been unusally quiet since the big deal. Anyone have an update on this?
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 5:43pm
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Look, “Voice of” (and I am beginning to wonder exactly whose voice you are being), it is YOU who is continuously “confusing the nature” of at least one “matter at hand”!!! YOU keep spreading the illusion “that PAC may in fact repay the loan in full”!!! Please enlighten us with details of how you see this happening, since there are no terms for this to happen in any agreements with the city. What YOU and City Hall keep calling a “loan” never calls for any repayment of any kind, on any level, in any way. You are correct that the City is reluctant to reveal the environmental remediation costs of the PAC building. See if you can find them. Also see if you can find out the final costs to the City of remodeling according to the mysterious “Exhibit C”, which were never made public. These costs were rumored to be in excess of $250,000. I anxiously await your revelation of the terms of repayment of the “loan” and the final costs to the taxpayers of the other improvements to 7 N. Broad. Then we will discuss the next items on YOUR AGENDA. After all, we wouldn't want to "confuse the issues", would we???------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 9:25pm
| I am sensing that all this give-away is just a plot by our city leaders to get all of their buildings renovated with taxpayer's money. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 11:39am
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While the city is making sure certain property is protected or given away, check out what's happening to residential property in Middletown. A 2.3 acre estate, beautiful rustic carriage style home with brick (ranch) with 3800 square ft at a March tax value of $245,000. sold in August for $150,000. Folks you house values are down to about .5 of where they were before AK and the hospital moved out. 3701 Rosedale, 2.3 acres, 3800sq ft- $150,000. Middletown is hardly on the rebound.
But, betcha city hall pounding Columbus an saying they gotta have that train stop to move all in Cincinnati up ti see PAC, and the students who will be commuting.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 12:12pm
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VOR--you keep ?ing here about the federal funding possibly used a few years back in the S Main historic district. You should probably go straight to the source to ask Mr.Kohler about the particulars. Also theMJ archives. Current city officials don't seem to want to discuss this situation--stating that they don't want to re-visit decisions and actions made in the past(ever wonder why?).
I personally like Mr.K and see him as potentially a tremendous asset to city admin if directed properly. Simply tell him what and how you want something approached, and let him follow that plan. He is very knowledgeable and capable.
The Cincy St. transition is extremey important, with any private property transfers being handled by the city to be very open and at minimal expense to the citizens. For the most part, these properties have been under-utilized or dormant for years, and honestly have little value to anyone outside of their ownership. After watching the serious over-payment for the alleyway cabinet shop property, the old Office Outfitter complex + all of the land tranfers/demos associated with the Duncan project, and the structures adjacent to the Studio/Strand theater, I hope that there is no bail-out for the current owners of properties eventually to be transferred to Cincy St. Property values in that area have fallen, and outside of municipal giveaways, there has been little to no action in that area. The gift to the PAC has not resulted in a rush of business movement into the area, despite the show put on before Council to encourage the gifting, forgivable loans and expense funding. VOR--you continue to mention "conditions" of the PAC project and "holding Mr.Verdin's feet to the fire", however I am not sure what actual conditions exist. Could you direct me to exactly where I could read those terms and conditions? V]
jmo
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 12:39pm
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If you think your property values are bad now just wait until this time next year. |
Posted By: Nelson...Himself
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 12:49pm
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SpiderJohn, Miss Vivian, Acclaro, Tomahawk35, Etc. --
Your comments (and those of others) underscore the plight of numerous Middletown home owners.
That's a reason why factual data is needed about how City staff spends our federal/state/local tax dollars.
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Posted By: Mtown
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 1:46pm
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You MiddletownUSA regulars are pitiful.
All you do is gripe. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 4:57pm
| Mtown- give us an overview of what you would like to see done in this town. What would be your gameplan to fix the many problems we have? Convince us why we should stop complaining about the multitude of problems that have not been corrected in over 30 years around here. If your ideas are concrete, perhaps we will lighten up on the criticism. If not, you have no valid reason to criticize the forum. It's in your court now. |
Posted By: Mtown
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 6:37pm
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Most every City in the country that was reliant on manufacturing is struggling today. Vivian, Steve (spiderjohn) and company act like the issues in Middletown are unique to Middletown and they aren't.
Instead of offering constructive critism and positive ideas MiddletownUSA is mostly a bunch of unhappy gripers.
If you don't like the way things are then work to change it. Get off you butts and away from your computers and make something positive happen. If the MiddletownUSA crowd spent as much time working on making things in Middletown better as they do writing about their negatives we would all be much better off.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 7:18pm
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Mtown- your response did not attempt to answer my challenge to you to present your gameplan to change the city. Your response only continued your bashing of the people on this forum while offering not one thought as to how you would handle our city problems. The theme to all of your posts has been to scold the posters of this forum, telling all of us to start acting on improvements and stop the complaining and negativity. We get that. Now, again, for the second time, I will ask you, what is your plan to improve this city and what changes would you make, short and long term. While we may be guilty of non activity toward our discontent, you are as guilty of criticizing us with no plan of action yourself, other than to complain about our negativity. Neither is palatable is it?
We do have a habit of discussion with the occasional "let's do something about it" tacked on. To date, we have not gathered to discuss, as a team, how to approach the recall. Will we let this idea die or act upon it either now or after the elections? What say you forum members? Is Mtown right? Are we a " do nothing" group of complainers with no intention of acting on our frustrations? |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 7:35pm
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hold on mtown--while I have been doing more than my share of griping, I am still working long hours at keeping a long-running local business in operation, and still finding time to attend most public forums(without "griping"), serve on countless boards and commitiees, donate/participate in countless public/private/official/un-official efforts around here.
I am no "outside expert" however I have been here long enough to see a lot of things happen good and bad.
I see myself as pesimmistically realistic.
Hopefully what happens will inspire many to become inspired and positive contributors.
Sure--I could do more.
Could you?
Same as everyone else
Get off of your ego mission, and participate in a more positive manner.
Can you actually say that you have been a constructive or informative member of this forum/family?
Fair ? ?
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Posted By: Mtown
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 8:29pm
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Vet
This whole recall thing is a perfect example. Spend a lot of time and energy talking about recalling local elected officials for what? The fact that you disagree with them? What makes your opinions more valid that the total city electorate? If you don't like what they are doing run for office against one of them and make your case to the voters. As far as spiderjohn, as I understand it all you do is complain and gripe on the boards/commissions you served/served on. My entire point is many (a majority) of the MiddletownUSA regulars do nothing. Except bitch and complain. Must be miserable being so unhappy that you can't approach life and your community with a more positive approach. |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 9:21pm
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Mtown, you make some good points--in particular Middletown's situation as an old manufacturing town that has declined, not at all unlike other old manufacturing towns--Hamilton, Dayton, Toledo, Cincinnati (to some extent), Detroit, Pittsburgh, Flint, etc. The list across the U.S. is pretty lengthy. Do all of these cities have terrible leadership, like Middletown, and that is the sole reason for the decline (I'm laying on the sarcasm pretty heavily here) or is it the case that larger economic forces outside the control of a single city's leadership are at work? I'd say clearly it is the latter.
Acclaro, you said that based on my logic the ciy leaders should be appluaded for letting downtown become a wasteland--please fill me in, how did I suggest that they should be appluaded for this? I don't believe that my logic suggests this in any way. The basic premise of my logic is that the best use of city dollars is to be put to use to attract private, job creating investment in the city--this would then have the opposite effect of making downtown a wasteland; rather, downtown would be full because so much city money is going towards attracting additional investments in the city. And based on my comments agreeing with Mtown in the previous paragrah, the downtown's decline probably started about 40 years ago, when none of today's leadership was anywhere near elected office.
------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 9:55pm
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Ok mtown:
Served on Citizens Advisory Board from beginning--was appointed interim chairperson, then elected chairperson for most of my tenure. put up with Mrs.Williams' bullying and threats, Mr.Marconi's muzzling, police distrust of citizen members just to keep that dead horse alive. that is one of the many boards that do not need to continue. served 2terms on Health Board, also appointed to the dept.licensing and review board. turned down chairing the Health Board. had good relationship with all past health Commissioners and staff + fellow board members. currently on Master Plan Steering Committee--appointed by Council Turned down a position on CVB I do not miss meetings. I do not sit silently just to vote yes on cue. I do not like to waste taxpayer monies. I ? The cronyism and air of superiority from many who have dragged us into the current mess. I have a lot of experience in many subjects and strong familiarity of our community. Other than by your crew, I am not viewed as disliking our city. Many think differently. |
Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 10:54pm
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 11:08pm
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VOR and Mtown, you both convey similar sentiments so I may assume you are the same. Really makes no difference, just fascinating how the logic becomes so easy to unravel. Its easy to state Middletown is just like any other community making the transition. Or, the new council is making progress. Hell, property values are so low right now, it will take Middletown 20 years to get rid of existing stock.
As for the problems, lets start Mtownand VOR with turning back the clock and dedicating those funds misappropriated from roads and infrastucture. You talk about progress and in a 5 minute emergency session, council will allow non residents to sit on committees (I reiterate I don't care---its just more than suspicious "outsiders" are so desperately needed to fill the void, but in a year, not one council member, including the three renegades, have made no effort nor set a motion, to reverse this terrible situation which has been in existence since 1988.
Give me a break on the whining about the city and the transformation to a new economy. What's that economy going to be? Taxes are outrageously high, the roads are a disgrace, the town a slum, and houses a year ago on the market for $415,000. are now $275,000, and still plunging. Go take a peek at Dr. Ionna's house and ask his realtor what the price is today. With the city in shambles, other than the fat union workers in the city and school district, what new economy is moving into town? Oh...I forgot, its the Paducah clan ready to sell their paintings at the PAC.
Yet, the city can still sit on Weatherwax, although its taking funnds from the general fund, sitting on the airport....in the name of "regionalism" of course, and anyone who voices dismay over this constant "two steps back" is not a team player for the shills of city hall.
MUM can't compete with the enerollment of MUH, and Cinci State will take additional enrollment from MUM. You can't give away a house in Middletown, and yet the UDF, an art facility, and a two year community college is going to revive the city from its roots in paper pulp and manufacturing? You establish the most consistent excuse given repeatedly as a talking point for the shills: "we gotta have time, we are a rust belt time, we need time to turn it around."
The city is dead. It was killed by individuals who have their head in the sand, blame others for not grabbing a broom and soap, and living in the past. All you have to do is see what is occurring around Austin Springs in Miamisburg, Mason, West Chester. It all is bypassing Middletown. Only a city employee wouldn't be disgruntled and outraged by the mismanagement that has been the norm in Middletown over 30 years, and in spite of the attempts, even the most basic of needs and commonsense couse correction has not been made---simply getting street funds reset aside, instead of letting it go to the city payroll and other wasteful projects.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 01 2010 at 2:31am
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Yes sir-ree Bob! For years everyone could see that Middletown was the obvious meeting point of the “Cin-Day” corridor and was touted to be the choicest interchange on I-75. Yet, thanks to the corruption and provincialism of our city hall and puppet masters such as MMF, we are not only the very LAST interchange to see development, but real movers and shakers have actually built NEW interchanges rather than deal with our “business-friendly” group of scoundrels. And Kohler continues to resist, and Gilleland and Council turn a blind eye. Build those “enhanced gateways” with Marty’s “water features”, folks. The successful communities will just build more interchanges and continue to prosper while Middletown crumbles!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 01 2010 at 4:17am
Excellent idea!!!
Mtown, Voice of Reason, and all of the other elitists out there:
I'll sacrifice my place for the 1998 price that I paid!!! I'm sure that the Mayor's bank will finance the full amount for you, just as a public service. You should be able to find plenty of folks around town that will co-sign the loan just to get rid of me. (I promise to move out of Middletown!!!)
All of you high-falootin' folks that think our city hall is on the right track---here is your chance!!! The Journal should even be happy to advertise for co-signers for FREE, not that I think any of you actually would need a co-signer. (I know that you all have money to burn.)
Heck, at the closing I might even pop for a couple bottles of that fancy wine you guys like. (Leave your plastic cups at home--we have actual wine glasses that we'll throw in on the deal--but the check MUST clear first!!!)
PS: Our original artworks do NOT go with the property!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 01 2010 at 4:23am
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For all of the REAL Middletonians: After the closing, we'll throw a beer and cheeseburger party at a local pub on our way out of town!!!
(But the check MUST clear first!!!) ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 01 2010 at 6:50am
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mtown--I was also asked to consider filling a term on Planning commission--turned that idea down
2nite I will be awarded a certificate from the BOE for serving as principal for a day.
Council forums/conversations?
I attend them and ask relavent ?s--not branded negative by Councilmembers
Where have YOU been?
Helped pay for those 10-0 t-shirts handed out to the players and coaches on the Middie football team(which I have financially supported for decades--along with countless other school programs).
Remember the local basketball team that finished a close 2nd in the national Gator Bowl tourney a few years back? I have the trophy bowl and a signed game ball in gratitude of my support for that trip and the program.
Walls and drawers full of plaques and certificates, thank yous and recognition from so many worthy organizations. I try to selectively help those deserving who really NEED assistance--not those who want, expect and demand $$, while honestly not needing it.
I did not seek any of these positions or leadership roles.
I was recruited by Council,staff and community leaders.
Still waiting for you to put up some facts and #s to back up your talk, other than your consistent attempts at degradation and intimidation. Maybe it is YOU that has come with "the chip", while being nothing other than extremely negative.
So--if you continue to choose me as your poster boy, go right ahead. Leaves plenty of opportunity for others proven to be very capable.
Not being able to silence or control this forum might be too much for you.
Actually, negativity seems to be YOUR chosen method and specialty.
Your form of repression simply won't work here.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 01 2010 at 6:59am
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Mtown- You state "What makes your opinions more valid that the total city electorate?"- what makes you think the MAJORITY of the city electorate doesn't agree with our points of view on this site? Have you polled them for their opinions? Doubtful
"If you don't like what they are doing run for office against one of them and make your case to the voters."- Ran in the 90's for school board. Was going to examine the school budget and internals and make public. Was the third to declare for three positions open. Next day, your side gathered five more candidates to dilute the impact of the non-club people. Club members filled the seats. In the 90's, Dems used my name on the ballot to run against the incumbant to offer token resistance. 70-30% loss, but didn't leave the house to campaign. I had a real job that didn't allow me to take off and no money. Now, have a wife with a stroke which is another full time job besides my regular job in Dayton. No time to attend forums, campaign, etc. or I would run for council. They wouldn't like me, guaranteed. Have you or VOR run for any office or are you totally satisfied with the crap going on here? Could you be one of the many court jesters downtown dancing for the queen? You STILL haven't answered the question after asking twice now. For the third time, what would you do to change the town? Present your gameplan to us so that we all can "see the light" and understand the reasoning for the city leader's decisions on many issues we currently disagree on. Convert us VOR and Mtown. Show us where our thinking is flawed. All you have done so far is complain about our complaining. You've shown us nothing to support your positions. Why should we support the way the city is being run? Again, in your court. Incredible!!!! "Must be miserable being so unhappy that you can't approach life and your community with a more positive approach." - Mercy!!! Not miserable at all. Frustrated perhaps concerning how the city is being run, but not miserable. Approaching life and the community with a more positive approach requires a situation where people are allowed to feel as if they have some control of the destiny of their life and the town. Personally, I feel neither right now. My life is now controlled by my job and the care of my wife with little time for me or anything else and the town is controlled by a group of exclusionary people who have an agenda they would rather keep from the general public. For years, they have not listened to the people nor asked what the people want for their city. They do not want to hear us as evidenced by the citizens comments at council meetings. They could care less for the citizens, hence we regard them as the opposition. How do you keep a "positive" attitude under those conditions? |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 6:16am
| Still waiting Mtown. Part the waters and lay some of that wisdom on us as to your gameplan to improve the town. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 7:24am
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hey mtown--
I also was appointed to the local Census committee, approved by Council and along side many diverse locals,non-locals and municipals. Was awarded plaques, certificates and pins.
Worked along side Ms.Andrew, Ms.Alberrico, Mr.Allen, Mr.Packert, Mr.Sawyer, Mr.Kleingers and many others on the school levy renewal. No issues there and got the job done.
Did you see the 10-0 t-shirts distributed to the Middie players and coaches after last Friday's game?
Who do you think paid for those shirts?
Since you continue to call me out personally, stating:
"As far as spiderjohn, as I understand it all you do is complain and gripe on the boards/commissions you served/served on."
maybe you can provide some of yer facts and incidents where I wasn't active or helpful to the group upon which I served.
Pretty big talk to not follow up with specifics.
All that u seem 2 do is bitch and complain about the postings and posters here.
Pretty scary personality trait--unhappy in your life--jealous of others?
What really scares you and draws you here?
. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 10:06am
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What scares Mtown and the other shills?
ANSWER: truth supported by facts and numbers.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 10:41am
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correct acclaro
compounded by the continued frustration over not being able to control and censor this site
which is gaining in popularity
while Council/Admin and Admin continue to downplay and attack this site, they are also obsessed with what is going on here..
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Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 10:49am
| Mtown, tell us...are you or your family employed by the city? |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Nov 04 2010 at 9:29pm
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Mike, I will take it as a compliment that you call me an elitist--you are the first person to anoint me with that title, but there is a first time for everything, I guess. But I should ask--what is your definition of elitist? And please give me something better than Merriam-Webster, since I can find out that for myself. I'd much rather hear how a deep and clear-thinking man such as yourself defines the term.Also, what is a "Real Middletonian?" Someone who blames city leadership for all of Middletown's woes because there is no other place to direct his frustration in life? Someone who wakes up every day with the uncanny ability to tell other people what not to do but without any ability to provide specific, original ideas for improving the city? Someone who epitomizes the term "armchair quarterback?"
You have no idea who I am, but somehow you are able to conclude that I like fancy wine; for the record, my drink of choice is Budweiser (not Bud Light) and I rarely drink wine. I like a good cheeseburger as much as the next guy, and so I hope to be invited to your going-away party.
Acclaro,
You cite the decline in home values as support for MIddletown's decline--have you noticed what is going on around the rest of the country the past few years? Do you think Middletown is the only place with declining property values?
As far as other areas like Mason, West Chester, Miamisburg, etc, that have grown in recent years, I would argue this has very little to do with any enlightened leadership in their city/township. I would argue that starting in about the 1970's and continuing on today, many people who had the means left the urban cores of Cincinnati and Dayton and in doing so fueled the suburban boom of the last several decades. Again, there were economic forces at play larger than any city council could overcome.
Does this mean that I think city council has done everything right over the years? Absolutely not. I will agree with you to a point that the city's infrastructure is hurting and should have been better maintained over the years, but, to my point about the current crop--what exactly could they have done about it 20 years ago? But on the other hand, if you've driven in any "city" recently, such as Hamilton, Cincinnati, Dayton, Chicago, Boston, etc, you'd find that their roads are at least as bad as Middletown's. But of course, fixing roads and improving infrastructure takes money--money that is mostly going to city police and firefighters. There simply isn't a lot of discretionary money in the city budget for improvements for roads, but I do believe that some cuts are necessary to free up cash for this purpose.
VietVet, you asked for specific ideas, so here they are:
--Keep the city income tax at its current level or, under ideal circumstances, lower it by 25 basis points
--Conduct of thorough review of the city fire department and see how many positions can be eliminated. I have a great deal of respect for the public safety employees--it's not an easy thing to risk your life as part of collecting a paycheck, but in times of need tough choices have to be made and frankly, there isn't much risk of a lot of people dying in fires. I would prefer to keep paying good salaries to fire department employees in order to attract and retain good employees, but the total payroll must go down significantly. That is, I would keep fewer but better paid firefighters on staff. I suspect there are a lot of actions the city can take to reduce its expenditures here. For example, work towards a county-wide fire unit and cut overhead and administration, and cut out unnecessary fire functions like accompanying ambulances.
--Keep police at or near its current staffing levels, since police/security are a prerequisite for any economic development to occur.
--Drastically reduce or eliminate Section 8 subsidies. This gets complicated since one of the darlings of the democrat/liberal establish, HUD, feels like they have to support everybody who asks, so I know there are hurdles to overcome here. Perhaps stopping Section 8 it is as easy as flipping a switch, but I seem to recall hearing that there are complications to this.
--Enforce strict zoning rules. If you look at Mason or West Chester as models you can't help but notice the manicured streets, curbs, and development. While I am generally in favor of government having a very light touch, if you want Middletown to be prosperous, you must insist on zoning regs and codes that force developers to spend extra money and not just build as cheaply (and as ugly) as possible. There is a counter to this point, that this regulation discourages development, but I would argue that having restrictions on development helps ensure that new but soon-to-be blighted houses and buildings don't drag down poor Mr. Presta's home value. (And for the record, I likely couldn't get a 1998 price for my home, either, even with some improvements).
--Lock up the Cincinnati State deal. This may be expensive for the city, and it may take a while to gain traction, but this could be big for downtown. As I have said in my previous posts, there is no better use for tax dollars than using them to attract investment in the city and job-creating development.
--Build a new interchange at Manchester Road. I agree with you here, Mr. Presta. We could use an additional exit from I-75, but this will take federal dollars, as we just don't have the money in our coffers. I think this could happen (and I seem to recall council authorizing a study on this, so wouldn't you applaud that move?) but it is, regrettably, years in the making.
So that's a few ideas. Dissect them if you'd like and tell me where I'm wrong.
Many of you are frustrated with MIddletown's lack of progress, though your criticisms seem to be directed at actions taken years ago by people who have no connection to today's city leadership and employees.
Every leader will always get too much credit for the successes that occur during his tenure and too much blame for the failures--this is simply a fact of life. The key, in my opinion, is to consider all viewpoints and consider the constraints facing leaders (such as the huge proportion of city funds that are contractually tied to police and fire employees, the decisions made by past councils, macroeconomic forces, etc.) and then come to a determination on their performance while keeping those constraints in mind. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 05 2010 at 6:57am
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VOR- thank you for the suggestions. I had originally asked for Mtown to generate a list at least 3 times, but no response, so your list is appreciated. Apparently Mtown has no ideas, just MUSA criticism on the negativity and a need to agitate.
I noticed that in your suggestions to cut firefighters and to maintain the current level with police that you didn't mention looking at city building positions and city employees in general to see where cuts could be made. Was this an intentional oversight on your part or a more deliberate one? IMO, there could probably be some cutting at the city building. Last time I saw the Public Works hierarchy, they had a Director, Manager, Supervisor, Team Leader, Lead Operator, Admin and two operators. IMO. way too top heavy in management for such a small department. I would imagine that if we took a look at each position, we could find many glorified, overpaid paper shufflers that could be eliminated and those left behing could double up on some of these job responsibilities if they are really needed. You state "Lock up the Cincy State deal"..... "This may be expensive for the city".....but COULD (speculation) be big for downtown. Really??? So you are willing to lavish these education people with over $500 thou in funds to buy buildings for them to sign a lease to stay for how long??? And what happens to the empty buildings the city is stuck with after they leave? As it is now, there are no guarantees that they will stay for any reasonable length of time. They could leave after two years. Could stay for a lengthy amount of time. We simply don't know yet if the city has negotiated a contract with them as to commitment, do we? Throwing money into the fray, setting them up with a sweet deal just to lure them to town to have SOMETHING downtown with no contract for commitment is stupidity at it's finest. We've already run the risk of going stupid with the Verdin deal as there was no lease commitment signed there either. Verdin could close shop in less than a year and the city is out $250 thou on the building rehab that will sit idle for years and has the potential to become another vacant eyesore. Now, you want to do it again??? Illogical. No time like the current time to do the Manchester interchange. Got alot of construction equipment setting out on I-75 right now. Would help me immensely getting out to 75 to go to Dayton each morning instead of up through Franklin. Section 8- agree- reduce it to the correct level and send the other Butler County communities their fair share ASAP. We long time residents are frustrated by the way the city has been run since the 70's. We usually direct our wrath toward the current admin. with a sprinkle or two sent in the direction of past admins. This and past admins. have had their own agendas and it never has meshed with the wants of the people. To compound the resentment, the current and past admins. have ignored the general populace and concentrated their efforts toward making a small contingent of people in this town happy. We believe this small group of people are the same as those people in the MMF circle of influential friends. Council seems to be accomodating this small faction of closed-loop inner circle wanna-be elitists and acting like anyone else in this city doesn't exist. That is our frustration. That's why we talk about recall once in a while. We older citizens are tired of the many years of a small contingent of people running the city. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Nov 05 2010 at 8:19am
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I think we need to step back and take another look at this I simply do not trust the City in this unknown multi-million dollar deal. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 05 2010 at 8:56am
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VOR, you generalize and defend Middletown on all its problems and leadership as if its a national epidemic. Say what you will about housing decline, but Middletown property in all corners, has dropped by at least 50% or more. That is not a national trend. You further neglect to state the problems with the city have been around for decades, associated with entitlement of the unions and a reactive mentality. Whoever has an idea, then Middletown follows. Doug McNeil says by consolidating with the Premiere Group, a massive biomedical campus and growth will come. That has and will not occur. The ER has a poor reputation, and I have been there many times with family members and many floors have been at very low occupancy.
Simply because the stained glass facility downtown has a few clients, the focus has evolved to making art a major focus. Its always follow someone else to success. That led to PAC and thoughts Middletown is the meccas for the art world in the city of poverty. I think Cinci State is a very fine institution. I am not the Dean as mentioned elsewhere, so he/she will have to live with that decision. I view that situation though exactly as was referenced above, a baii-out for the Thatcher estate, just as buying the land for Mr. Thatcher for the Atrium (chump change for the Atrium) was expended.
The reasons for the growth around Mason and West Chester are attributed to lcale to 275, 75, 71, and more importantly, low or no tax. Compare that to Middletown. Compare that to the reasoning of AK leaving, compare that to the desire for Middletown Regional Hospital to move.
You are not a reader of this forum or others routinely. If you ad been, you would have hundreds of ideas you could bank, well though, highly constructive, and innovative, regarding what could be done to enhance Middletown in all facets. Not one has been exercized by the city, nor embraced. Rather, its paving a bike track, maintaining assets which no city in such decline, should own, an airport and a golf course, as well as others. You negate to consider the impact of the school rating has on house depreciation, the street infrastructure mess, and the general knowledge Middletown has abundantly poor leadership and vision.
While you state no constructive ideas have been offered, I argue there are probably 40 pages of well thought and conceptulized ideas presented by many on this forum. Instead of embracing them, in usual fashion, the city and council run to others, as they have no clue what is occurring in their midst, and embrace the new all encompassing buss word "regionalism", hoping they can ride the ideas and back of another part of southwestern Ohio, to come up with anything they can throw out there, which may have legs and which might stick.
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Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Nov 05 2010 at 10:30am
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It was my understanding that the old Bank One building has a major mold issue. If this is the case who would be resposible for the clean up?
I completely agree this is a bailout for the the Thatcher family, would be nice if they would help bail out some of the homes in foreclosure before they get to the point of no return. It is really hurting the property values in Middletown.
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Posted By: Dead man walkin'
Date Posted: Nov 06 2010 at 10:17pm
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Where's Mike Presta been and why hasn't he commented on any of the events of the past week or so? Not a word on the budget crises, or the sewer/EPA, or the Cincy st. matter. Don't tell me that some city big shot offered him enough for his house to shut im up, and he sold out the regular citizens of Middletown.
They say that everyone has their price, so was his the 1998 cost of his house?
Sad. I wouldnt have believed it. ------------- "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil" (Psalm 23) |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 07 2010 at 6:29am
| Dead Man- Mr. Nagy posted that Mr. Presta was out of town. |
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Nov 07 2010 at 6:51am
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Thank you, Vet. Mike Presta is out of town but I've talked to him twice and he is up on everything and will be rarin' to go as soon as he gets back.
pn
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 08 2010 at 4:09am
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Thank you, Vet and Paul.
Yes, I have been out of town consulting with Leonardo about our city's troubles, and I am happy to report that I will be back shortly with a brilliant new plan to cure all of our ills.
Please be patient. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Nov 10 2010 at 9:59pm
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Acclaro,
You cite 50% reduction in home property values around Middletown--what is your source on this? I still maintain that home values have dropped substantially all over the country and that Middletown is likely in the middle of the pack with regard to this fact. See Stockton, CA, for instance.
I neglect to mention the problems with the city have been around for decades--what are you talking about?!? Did you read what I posted here? Didn't I offer up the point that many of the problems that Middletown has been facing were decades in the making, and that it isn't appropriate to blame the current council for all the problems facing Middletown? Re-read my previous two posts in this topic if you don't believe me--this point is right there in front of you.
As far as your low/no tax argument--I seem to recall reading an article in the Journal (so taken with a grain of salt, of course) that Middletown's income tax rate is 1.75% or 1.50%, which is less than some local areas but more than others--I believe that Dayton and Moraine were at 2.00%, Franklin and Miamisburg may have been at 1.50% or 1.25% or so (and Franklin was voting to raise theirs). I simply don't believe the fact that 25 basis points makes a difference on where to locate a business. The labor base has much more to do with this, and Mason and West Chester's higher proportion of college graduates greatly enhances their attractiveness to employers.
And if you want some basic city services like police, fire, road re-paving, etc., some nominal income tax can be somewhat in terms of improving the infrastructure. And I say that with the firm belief that it is government's job to keep taxes competitively low across the board. And I will press the point further--what tax rates exactly are you comparing?
And I don't believe that I said there were no ideas on this forum--but please point them out to me, as I am relatively new and I will admit to being unaware of these ideas. Where are these good ideas for improving Middletown?
As far as some other items go, like locking up the Cincy State deal, everyone who reads this let me be clear--I am not sure of any details about it other than what I've read in the paper and on this forum. But it should be very obvious to everyone that opportunities like this don't come along very often, if ever again, really, so the city must be aggressive in closing the deal.
Here's another piece of "news" for all of you--the city must compete with other cities to land deals like this, and offering incentives and tax breaks, loans, grants, etc., are part of the battle being waged with other cities. So if you oppose this deal, please tell me--how exactly will it happen that any other potentially large deals will come our way again? What company or institution today would be so close to establishing a major presence in Middletown as Cincinnati State? America's days aggressive growth in manufacturing industries (the way that Middletown grew up as a city) are behind us and a new service-based and information-based economy is behind us. I am very much a pro-manufacturing sort of person, since manufacturing companies tend to pay well and greatly support a local economy, but the reality is that there will be no more Armcos or Sorg Papers setting up shop in MIddletown any time soon, if ever again.
Those of you who oppose this deal are simply standing on the sidelines waiting for something magical to happen that just won't. The city must take risks, it must be willing to compete for jobs and do what is necessary to land deals like this, because I assure you there won't be another one like it for quite a while. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Nov 10 2010 at 10:06pm
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And Acclaro, to your other points about the airport and golf course--if the city kept these or sold these, it wouldn't make a great deal of difference to the well-being of the city. So to me, they can keep them (at some cost to the budget, no doubt, but a small portion of the budget) or sell them. Whatever.
As far as the schools go--I agree with you here, a school district's performance has a major impact on where a family decides to make a home. But what control does city council have over that? I have my problems with Middletown city schools to be sure, but that is a whole other issue unto itself.
Also, to VietVet's question about cutting city employees in general, in addition to firefighters--this was an oversight on my part. It would be my idea to apply the same principle to city bureaucrats as the police/fire employees: employ fewer, but well-compensated employees and you'll get the most bang for your buck. The total city payroll can and ought to go down. There is nothing wrong with having well-compensated city employees that add value to the city's services, but of course there is something wrong with having too many well-compensated city employees. I will agree with anyone who says that cuts ought to be made to the city bureaucracy, it's just a matter of where and how much, exactly. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 11 2010 at 7:27am
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VOR- I'd like to respond to some of your observations concerning Middletown.
The most recent property evaluation by the county auditor revealed a drop in my property value of approx. 20% in the last 5 years. Not close to 50% as you say acclaro has cited. Perhaps there are properties in Midd. that have dropped in value by that much. Don't know. You accurately mention the fact that the Sorgs and AK's won't be coming back. Not coming back to any town. Steel and paper have gone to China. They occupy the leader position in these disciplines and have for 10+ years. Black Clawson, a paper machine manufacturer to the paper companies saw the US market dry up in early 2000's. Now, their main customers are the Chinese, who are building new papermills. I worked for Black Clawson back then and know first hand how the customer base vanished in the US for them. I would like to see Robinette and his Econ. Dev. Department go after some communications companies. How about some fiber optics, corporate research and development centers, corporate warehousing operations, software manufacturers, electronics manufacturing, anything lighter than steel or paper. The emphasis for the Midd. city government should be to provide job opportunities to its residents. It has failed miserably in the last 30 years to supplant the loss of paper and steel in this town. Not only have they not kept pace with the companies closing or moving elsewhere, it appears they haven't even given it much effort at all. JMO There are many good ideas interspersed within these pages. It will take some searches as they are not concentrated in one area. As expected, the locations of these town-improving ideas are tied to the topic of interest. Pick a topic and you will usually find some solutions attached somewhere in these posts. Most of us probably realize that to entice a potential employer here, concessions must be made. We must practically give away the land, give tax breaks for years in advance, wine and dine them and basically kiss their behind to overcome the competition. I just wonder how often this has occured in the last 30 years. From what I have seen over the last 30 years, its always the "other towns" that have lured the new employer to town with no indication that the Middletown gov. people were even aware they were in the area to look, much less being in the running to land them. I question Robinette's Econ. Dev. department's effort compared to the surrounding area's econ. dev. Midd. just doesn't seem to be as aggresive in its pursuit of new employment and seems content to keep it "business as usual" around here. JMO I would have felt a little more "giddy" if the new kid on the block was an electronic manufacturer rather than an arts center to locate here. I see much more potential in the electronics manufacturer producing viable opportunitites and money flow to this town than I do anything an arts center could provide. Coffee shops? Surrounding restaurants? They pay little (with little to no benefits package) compared to a decent manufacturing job. I don't understand why council and the city leaders don't want to provide decent job opportunities to the citizens of this community? No effort at all on their part to even try as if jobs, money flow, payroll/corporate taxes aren't important revenue for the city.  Too much concentration on fed money revenue from handout programs than to do it the right way with revenue from company/worker taxes. Apparently easier to get revenue by soliciting gov. funds taking on gov. programs no one else wants for their cities than to make an effort to attract jobs like most other towns do.
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Posted By: Storm Ahead
Date Posted: Nov 12 2010 at 9:25am
To vet was originally a /wiki/Horse-racing - horse-racing term, referring to the requirement that a horse be checked for health and soundness by a /wiki/Veterinarian - veterinarian before being allowed to race. Thus, it has taken the general meaning "to check." It is a figurative contraction of veterinarian which originated in the mid-17th century. The colloquial abbreviation dates to the 1860s; the verb form of the word, meaning "to treat an animal," came a few decades later—according to the Oxford English Dictionary the earliest known usage is 1891—and was applied primarily in a horse-racing context. ("He vetted the stallion before the race," "You should vet that horse before he races," etc.) By the early 1900s, vet had begun to be used as a synonym for evaluate, especially in the context of searching for flaws. #cite_note-0 - [1] Wikipedia I think we'd be better off if we let our veterinarians do our vetting. My daddy says it's been the same old group in Middletown forever, and as the good ones died off, they were replaced by elite wanna-bes, who have served their own egos and pocket-books. Look at their track record. They hand-picked their boys and gurls for commissions and councils. Daddy says the requirement was that they look good and do as they were told. There are no Verity's left in Middletown.
All I know is I want the local schools to give my children a solid education! Vet that! ------------- Stormy |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 12 2010 at 11:07am
| Storm- your daddy was a very observant, intelligent person who hit the nail on the head with his take on what's happened in this town. He is right. The good leaders who really cared for this town died off/retired and left and the new wanna-be/no ties to the city/could care less about the city airheads, void of any common sense at all, became firmly entrenched in running this town into the ground. Hence, we see what we see today. |