Allen, Picard, Becker,Mayor
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: City Council
Forum Description: Discuss individual members and council as a legislative body.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3396
Printed Date: Nov 27 2024 at 6:24am
Topic: Allen, Picard, Becker,Mayor
Posted By: randy
Subject: Allen, Picard, Becker,Mayor
Date Posted: Oct 20 2010 at 5:02pm
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Can you explain why you voted to allow outsiders on our broads and commission to have a vote as to what happens in Yes I understand that there are business owners that live outside the city and have a vested interest in Middletown, fine make an exception to the rule * If you live outside of Middletown, but own a business in Middletown you can serve on a broad or commission. You sat there last night and made arguments as to why we should allow out of towner's to serve, but never answered why they can’t just be an adviser with no vote....Explain it!! It sounds like to me we have a few people already serving on broads and commission that are from out of town, even through our laws say that we were not allowed to do this, care to explain this Mr. Mayor? ------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Replies:
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 20 2010 at 9:24pm
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It sounds to me like they do this precisely because of a lack of volunteers to fill the Board posts, Randy, not because there are people they are trying to keep off the boards. Additionally, I would MUCH rather have a business owner, who has some perspective on how to run a successful enterprise (but happens to live out of town) than exclude the business owner in favor of some yahoo whose only credential is that he happens to live in Middletown.
The point I'm trying to make here is that a person's residence does not mean that they're automatically the best person to serve on a Board, particularly if the MIddletown residents who want to serve on the Board are neither qualified nor competent. I am not speaking about anyone in particular, just in generalities. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Oct 20 2010 at 9:46pm
| VOR there was no requirement to own a business in Middletown to serve on Boards/Commissions it is basically open to anyone who wants to be on one no matter where they live. Also the main Board that was discussed was to have someone serve on the Cemetery Board who is an expert at running cemeteries, as Middletown doesn't have an expert. I heard no mention of a lack of people to serve. |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 20 2010 at 10:38pm
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I realize that there was no requirement of owning a business to serve on a Board, I was responding to Randy's example of a business owner as a person who might be interested in serving on a Board even if he didn't live in the city.
And then I offered the lack of people willing to serve (who are capable and have the right experience/skill set--not just anyone who happens to be from Middletown) as a likely reason why the idea of opening all Boards to non-residents isn't a bad idea.
Consider this--we pay non-resident city employees (police, firefighters, and others) to carry out the business of the city, so why not let unpaid volunteers also carry out the business of the city?
I realize that perhaps service on a Board can involve setting policy, which police and fire employees do not do, but the ultimate authority on spending and policy will still rest with City Council, which is (rightly) comprised of residents, elected by residents. So in this case the final check is with council, where it belongs. If a knowledgeable outsider wants to serve MIddletown (free labor for the city) then so be it. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: Kelly
Date Posted: Oct 20 2010 at 10:39pm
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Voice of Reason-There are no lack of volunteers for Board posts; however, there is a lack of volunteers suitable for the "4" on the council and Ms.Gilleland. Trust me - a member of my family is on one of the boards and there is never a lack of folks who want to get "on board." Are they experts? No...but then the only 2 criteria for President of the United States is to be a US citizen and to be at least 35 years old...but... I digress. There was also the instance when this family member wanted to be on more than one board but was told they could only be on one board...period. After research, obviously there are those who serve on 1, 2 and even 3 boards. We did this research a few years ago and discovered at the same time (much to our surprise) that there were several on boards/committees who were not from Middletown Proper. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Oct 20 2010 at 11:13pm
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Voice of Reason:
Let me, once again, paste an excerpt copid EXACTLY from the City of Middletown's actual
"APPLICATION FOR CITY BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS": Please use the following space to identify any information which may assist the City Council in considering you for appointment, keeping in mind that most of the Boards and Commissions do not require specialized skills other than a strong interest in and desire to serve the Middletown City Government and the citizens of this community. Please note that the "emphasis" (the underlining) was NOT added by me, but was copied EXACTLY as it exists on the actual City application form!!!
Perhaps the four council members who insist on all of this "expertise" should direct the "maker of forms" to revise this application form so all of the inept Middletonians will stop applying!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 20 2010 at 11:25pm
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Mike, I don't deny that officially the only requirement is "a strong interest in and desire to serve..., etc." but, unfortunately, there are likely to be a number of ill-qaulified people who think they are capable of serving on a Board but who wouldn't do the city any good. It wouldn't make much sense to have a form that said: "If you're stupid, don't apply to be on one of our Boards, even though you may have a strong interest in and desire to serve..., etc."
And all else equal, what would you rather have--an out of towner with specialized skill/high intellect on a Board or a local who is of average (or below average) intelligence but really wants to be on the Board? I would vote for the well-qualified non-resident and leave it up to Council to have the final say on policy that the Board sets.
By the way, who was it that told your relative that she could only be on one board? ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 20 2010 at 11:30pm
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My last question was for you, Kelly, I realized later that I wasn't clear on that. And to your point about candidates who are suitable for the '4' on the Board--what if their judgment is correct in most cases? I think it is reasonable to assume that these 4, with their experience as attorneys, bankers, and police chief would actually make pretty good selections to most Board posts. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: TANGO
Date Posted: Oct 21 2010 at 6:42am
| VOR is this why the4 could not handle the cemetery on 1st and had to make a board for that. They may be good at their job but not at policy making. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Oct 21 2010 at 6:47am
| C'mon VOR. You state- "I think it is reasonable to assume that these 4, with their experience as attorneys, bankers, and police chief would actually make pretty good selections to most Board posts."- Really? Considering the decisions that these "bankers","lawyers" and "police chief" have made to date, it would appear that the profession of the councilperson/board member has nothing to do with competent decision-making. Because a councilperson/board member is a so-called "professional" doesn't give them a license to reign as a decision-making guru. There are many people out there that are not considered "professionals" nor are "college educated" that are perfectly capable of understanding what is presented to them, asking the appropriate questions and making rational, competent decisions just as effectively as any "professional". Doesn't common sense and logic trump "professional status" in matters like this? Perhaps we should get away from stereotyping a person with leadership skills as having a higher education as a requirement. If we continue to do that, don't we limit our selection and exclude some potential logic being injected into these boards? In over 42 years, I have worked around many "highly educated" people in the corporate world. Some had no clue what common sense nor logic was about. Most were Chem E's at Procter. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Oct 21 2010 at 8:54am
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Ok we will use the However after 60 years it is now clear to the citizens and family members of those buried in this cemetery that the City is not willing to solve the many problems concerning this cemetery. In 1995 Mr. Wehr (THE EXPERT) and others started restoration at the cemetery and at that time Mr. Wehr (THE EXPERT) explained in detail to the City what needed to be completed at the cemetery…30 days later the City stopped the project and ignored all of Mr. Wehr’s (THE EXPERT) advice, requests and suggestions. The Middletown Cemetery Committee during 2005-2010 sent photos and detailed lists to the City requesting action on many of the problems at the cemetery. We were ignored and the City refused to take action to solve the problems. We contacted Mr. Armbruster since the cemetery was in the 1st Ward and he took no action. The family member called and emailed council members and the City Manager and their requests fell on deaf ears. The Middletown Cemetery Committee in 2009 presented a petition with 250 signatures to City Council and this request also fell on deaf ears and no action was taken. In 2009-2010 the City met with Mr. Wehr (THE EXPERT) numerous times concerning the problems at the cemetery and once again they choose to ignore his expert advice. So we now have the Middletown Cemetery Board with NO POWER and NO BUDGET and a board that has been hand picked by City Council. Again the families of those buried in this cemetery will have no voice. To now require that the laws of Middletown be changed so Mr, Wehr (THE EXPERT) can be chairman of the Middletown Cemetery Board is a joke since the City has INGORED his advice for the past 15 years. Does anyone on this blog believe that the City will now take action on the problems at the It is my opinion that the City wanted the laws changed for other reasons and simply used the |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Oct 21 2010 at 9:56am
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Voice of Reason For the past 60 years we have had council members from many professions and not one has been able or willing to step up and solve the problems at the cemetery. In 2005 when I presented my 3 Year Restoration Plan for the Over the past 6 years while I have been researching and correcting the official burial records of the In 2009 when the City needed to know about the storm damage at the ...and yet the City is not willing to take my advice because I'm not an EXPERT on the Middletown Cemetery.
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Posted By: Nick_Kidd
Date Posted: Oct 21 2010 at 11:10am
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I don’t think anyone that doesn’t live in Middletown should be on any Middletown board. One reason is that if you don’t pay all local taxes it is easy to suggest spending other peoples money. Another reason is that if you don’t have to live with the consequences of your proposals, you may take the easy way out. Just look what our city has become by having a bunch of carpetbaggers making the decisions. Middletown being the section 8 slum capitol of Ohio on top of the Forbes fastest dying list is no problem for the carpetbaggers because they go home to Mason, Monroe or somewhere else where they don’t have to live with the destruction they have forced on Middletown. ------------- Government is not the answer to problems, government is the problem. |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 21 2010 at 10:04pm
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VietVet, I do not deny that an education is not necessary for making sound decisions; however, AJ has prettty clearly made some very poor decisions in his short span as a council member--his vindictive comment about the city employee's death, the bizarre encounter he had with the police and his sister, to name a few instances.
As far as the other 4 go in terms of representing the city and making policy, consider this--if a representative of a major company, say an auto manufacturer or other company was considering Middletown as a site for a new location and wanted to meet with some members of city council--which 3 members of council would you want representing the city at such a meeting? I would much rather have any of those 4 represent Middletown and be the face of the city than the other 3.
There are some very revealing qualities about the others that I think are enlightening. First, why didn't Scott Jones ever finish law school after attending for 2+ years? It's not as though you have to be a lawyer to make good decisions (I agree with you there, there are plenty of bad leaders that get elected that are lawyers), but to go for more than two years and never finish is bizarre--it's not as though you only get one chance, you can always finish up at some point in the future, but it is a total waste to not finish and not pass the bar somewhere.
Also, I seem to remember AJ saying that he would get a "degree" and be firefighter. First off, attending a 6 week course at Butler Tech/Sinclair or wherever he finished up is not a degree, and it is very illuminating about AJ's lack of awareness and understanding of matters if he considers that a "degree" on par with a college degree. Secondly, if he does wish to be a firefighter, why does AJ seem to have antagonized Becker so much in the past? Doesn't he realize that Becker is so well connected to all the local police/fire leadership? Becker could black ball him for life if he wished (and maybe he already has). It strikes me as foolish for someone to act that way, even if he doesn't really care for Becker. This is pretty basic, and AJ's lack of foresight tells me a lot. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Oct 21 2010 at 10:45pm
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Voice of Reason wrote:Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Oct 21 2010 at 11:00pm
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Posted By: Anita Scott Jones
Date Posted: Oct 21 2010 at 11:02pm
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Voice of Reason,
I went to law school because I had been working in the District Attorney's Office for quite some time and decided to take some law classes. I never had any intentions of practicing law. I did not finish law school because I was in accident where my car was hit by an 18 wheeler. I spent two years in therapy and could not attend classes. After that, I severed my achilles tendon and spent another two years learning how to walk again. After recovering, my life took a different turn and then I moved here to assist my mother-in-law who was ill at the time. When I moved here, I opted to obtain my MBA and pursue a Doctorate in Education. There are plenty of people with law degrees who have never prosecuted a case or been in a court room. As for my colleagues, at least the seven of us got in the ring and at some point, we all displease someone. We are individuals with differing viewpoints and I trust that my colleagues and I will get past this bend in the road and move forward.
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Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Oct 21 2010 at 11:10pm
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Posted By: Anita Scott Jones
Date Posted: Oct 21 2010 at 11:14pm
| As far as finishing up law school at some point in the future, it depends. If you attended law school inone state and move to another, you may have some credits transfer, some not. Also, you must take each sttes bar exam. They are different. I never intended to practice law. Ii worked for nearly 20 years in the District Attorney's Office and I always like learning, therefore, I decided to take law courses. As for the chip on my shoulder, you are entitled to your opinion. I have always and will continue to be accessible to the people I serve until I exercise one of the three options I have next year, or a recall is initiated, or life takes a different turn. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Oct 22 2010 at 7:09am
| No mention of that huge chip residing on the shoulder of Mr.Picard? |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Oct 22 2010 at 7:39am
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I believe that chip is of a different material, usually found on the Great Plains or in the stockyards. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Oct 22 2010 at 7:45am
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VOR- For cryin' out loud! AJ is just starting out in life. He has made some poor decisions, certainly. Hell, I'm 62 and still make some poor decisions. There is no age limit on poor decisions being made. We ALL do it, including you. As I understand, the AJ/ sister thing was reported as AJ defending his sister in an altercation and his insistance that it be handled by the courts with his arrest. He is a public figure and made known to the public, his business. He hid nothing. Give him credit for that, at least. He has a right to defend his sister, doesn't he. Wouldn't you if this were your situation?
Again the difference between you and I. I would choose from the group of 3. There is a major non-trust issue with the group of 4. I would have no problem at all sending Ms Scott-Jones, Mr. Smith and Mr. Laubach to the table to represent the city to sit with a new employer and entice them to town. Could any be any more offensive than what Mr. Picard demonstrated the other night? Could any of them be any less animated and disinterested than Becker or Allen? Could any of them be anymore unable to make a decision than what Mulligan demonstrated in refereeing the argument on council the other night? Doubtful. How do you know that Becker could "black-ball" AJ for life"? How do you know that Becker has the overwhelming respect in the police/firefighters community. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that he wasn't that popular with the personel in the police department when he was running the show. He doesn't have the personality to persuade or influence people. I would venture to guess he turns many people off with his attitude and personality and he probably has many detractors out there in the police/firefighter professions. He doesn't have to stay in this area to continue his quest to be a firefighter, does he? Ms. Scott-Jones and her degree? That's her business. It she has an MBA, she's done much better than I. |
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Oct 22 2010 at 7:54am
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Voice of Reason,
Reason with this! Anita Scott Jones does more for this city in any one week than all of the council members combined do in a month. She obviously is well educated and is the VOICE OF REASON for our citizenry. She also is obviously not a puppet like the other four you seem to want her to be.
When I was young, I started out to be a lawyer and took a semester of prelaw. When I listened and observed the lecturing judges and attorneys, It was obvious to me that I couldn't be a lawyer and die and go to heaven. So, I decided to turn my education in another direction and have never regretted it . No, we need more of the character,integrity, ability and energy of Anita Scott Jones. Also, you mistake the chip on her shoulder for the block in her brain that says , "do no harm to my city and its citizens".
Paul Nagy
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Oct 22 2010 at 9:42am
AMEN to that post Mr. Nagy 
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Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Oct 22 2010 at 2:26pm
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VOR, you say that in the end having a outsider to Middletown sit on our broads is no bid deal because the final decision rest with council, when it comes to any changes that this person a may suggest. Well when the council is split 4-3 and the 4 deciding with this outsider I say it does matter. When you people open your eyes and see what is happening in this city. ------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 9:47pm
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Ms. Scott-Jones,
I was out of line in my previous post, and I apologize. There was no reason to make it personal against you and I was clearly out of line. I did not know your personal circumstances, and I commend your decision to care for your family members. I do think that you did yourself a disservice by not crossing the finish line of law school after you were in the home stretch, but that choice is yours and yours alone to make, of course.
Perhaps I was having a bad day, or perhaps I let my blood pressure get too elevated after reading some of the posts on here, but I do get very agitated with those people who make stupid --repeat, STUPID--comments about Mr. Landen's size or Mr. Mulligan's facial expressions. Such comments reveal just how ignorant and stupidly emotional some people can be--and I let myself become one of them. I always try to judge people on their actions and character, not on something as petty as their looks or other non-substantive reasons.
It seems that a lot of people seem content to whine and b*tch about anything and everything without offering any of their own ideas or time. And some of what's posted on here smells a lot like jealousy--the 4 members of council seem to get piled on for anything or everything they do, and that, to me, reveals some pettiness and envy on the part of those who write the posts.
But again, in the future I will be sure to reserve my comments to matters of policy and I will withhold judgment on personal issues. I do hope you read this, Ms. Scott-Jones. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: Anita Scott Jones
Date Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 11:37pm
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Voice of Reason,
I accept your apology. We all get passionate about what we believe. I have no problem with people getting to know me better. As far as the law school goes, I learned what I needed to learn but I am where I am supposed to be. Have a blessed day. Anita
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 5:18am
You are not the first, and I doubt that you will be the last, that expresses sentiments such as those, and you are certainly entitled to your opinions.
I always enjoy the chuckle.
 ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 7:07am
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VOR- Realizing you sent this to Ms. Scott-Jones, I'd like to offer a response to some of your comments directed to the rest of us. Quote from you. "I always try to judge people on their actions and character, not on something as petty as their looks or other non-substantive reasons."
The irony with your statement is that you know none of us that well to know our character. Your criticism in your post, of us "ignorant" and "stupidly emotional" people (your words) is just as demeaning as our "comments about Mr. Landen's size or Mr. Mulligan's facial expressions". This is the "people in glass houses- throwing stones thing revisited. Some here dislike the "group of 4". We occasionally disagree with what the "group of 3" do also. Some here find the thinking in the "group of 3" to be more "in tune" with what is needed in town. Some believe that the "group of 4" do many things that are detrimental to the town. Some are skewed to the 3. If you read back through the posts and topics, I believe you will find many posts that offer solutions and ideas to place the town on the right track. I don't think this forum is void of ideas at all. That's why I believe your claim that "a lot of people seem content to whine and b*tch about anything and everything without offering any of their own ideas or time" is not accurate. Jealousy concerning the 4 members of council????  Hardly. IMO, there are no redeeming qualities between the four of them as to positive accomplishments toward growing this town. To be clear for your benefit.....I am not attacking them for who they are, but rather, for what they have done to date on council.
Oh, one more thing.....you need to stop being so dam pious, thinking everyone is as concerned about feelings as you seem to be. Little barbs are dropped on people everyday, especially in the political arena. Fun is made of government officials everyday. It is one way for the people to exact revenge on leaders that are not above board and hurt the people. Anything goes between the people and their leaders when the leaders don't listen to what the people want. Sometimes, a price is paid at the polls, in the newspapers and in forums like this. That price is ridicule in the form of vicious humor and constant criticism. |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 9:00pm
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VietVet, you say I need to be less pious, I say you need to have a sense of class and tact. I would much rather err on the side of being overly pious than crass and low brow. You have made clear which side you would rather err on. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 12:33pm
Please elaborate on this...  |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 9:31pm
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I'm not sure if the article can be found on the Journal's website or not, but I am referring to the article that discussed the 4-3 split among council (published sometime last week, I believe). In that article, if memory serves, AJ somehow tried to connect this split on council with the failure to fill a firefighter trainer position, which in turn led to the death of the city employee at Air Products due to lack of training by the firefighters.
AJ, who wants to be a firefighter, is clearly pro-firefighter causes, and thus he tried to spin the council split to suit his polical purposes, and was thus way out of line, particularly given the fact that they are likely to be pending legal decisions--lawsuits-- regarding the death.
His comments seem to suggest that the city was negligent by not having proper training in place, comments which are both 1) wrong (the firefighters were trained on confined space entry--it was their failure to properly execute the training that may have led to the death, and nearly their own demise as well) and 2) irresponsible, for the reason cited above of pending litigation.
Thus, I would call AJ's comment vindictive and politically motivated. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: angelababy
Date Posted: Oct 31 2010 at 10:59pm
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Middletown being the section 8 slum capitol of Ohio on
top of the Forbes fastest dying list is no problem for the carpetbaggers
because they go home to Mason, Monroe or somewhere else where they
don’t have to live with the destruction they have forced on Middletown.
------------- Welcome to my paintings website - http://www.wholesaleartmall.com - Wholesale Art Mall . |
Posted By: Nick_Kidd
Date Posted: Nov 04 2010 at 9:11pm
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The whole uproar about non-residents on city boards doesn’t make sense. The ordinance council wanted to change was just a reaffirmation of the City Charter. The City Charter can only be changed by a vote of the citizens of Middletown. Since everyone on council and/or part of the administration takes an oath to uphold the Charter, was this Charter violation incompetence or was it criminal? Once again our city “leaders” will not let the Charter, the law, ethics, honesty, integrity or anything else get in the way of doing what they want. From our Charter: Section 260.03 RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT. Every member of any City board or commission shall be a resident of the City. ------------- Government is not the answer to problems, government is the problem. |