Are we getting our Monies worth
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: City Manager
Forum Description: Discuss the city manager administration including all city departments.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2844
Printed Date: Nov 25 2024 at 10:11am
Topic: Are we getting our Monies worth
Posted By: Pacman
Subject: Are we getting our Monies worth
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 6:57am
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Replies:
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 7:00am
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Start your day off right and check out the latest salaries for City Employees as of 2009. Then ask yourself are we as taxpaying citizens getting our monies worth from the city and the Schools and Library.
http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/middletown-news/search-salaries-find-out-how-much-public-employees-made-in-2009-593148.html - http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/middletown-news/search-salaries-find-out-how-much-public-employees-made-in-2009-593148.html
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 7:39am
Some are listed as Fire Deputy Chief and some as Deputy Fire Chief. Just a typo or some inconsistency in title names? Are these the going rates for these public service positions around the country? Would be interesting seeing a comparison of similar position salaries in a town like Middletown with approx. 48,000 people. Might find Middletown is overpaying these people when compared to most town's the size of Middletown. How about Gilleland's salary for a town this size? Any comparisons out there, you researchers? Old Marty Kohler has certainly earned his salary driving off his share of business opportunities for this town with his $89,013 salary, hasn't he?  Ms. Judith better watch it.....old Walter's right behind her, a few bucks short of topping her salary. Time for a raise for Judy, right Council? Wouldn't want old Walter to outpace her, would we? Hey, how about David Tieman, GOLF DIRECTOR, at $75,091? Alot of training and overall importance to this job to warrant that kind of pay. Surprised he doesn't have an assistant like Leslie has? He's gotta be swamped this time of year. Arthur Delliger, TREATMENT PLANT OPERATOR, coming in at $72,427. Atta boy, Art! Must be a he-- of a "smooth operator"! Another surprise....we have Beth Potter , a dispatcher, at $66,682 and Karen Shyers at $64,380! Medical dispatchers for ambulances in Tucson were making $11/hour. No, from the looks of this list, it looks like the taxpayer is getting the shaft on the salary payouts here. Way overpaid in some positions. JMO Need to start over on the salary requirement for these jobs IMO. Need to be taken down a notch or ten.
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Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 9:27am
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Wow !! Things must be really good down at city hall !! I shouldn't expect a levy for anything anytime soon should I ?? With salaries like these there shouldn't be another levy for anything for at least another 10-15 years. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 9:35am
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Pacman, thanks for putting this info up. I read this Sunday and absolutely got ill. This is another reason the economy is in the tank and the arrogance so prevalent down in Donham. Ms. Gilleland got an increase, maybe a cost of living adjustment that most companies aren't paying, that put her at > $130 KK. Recall, she started about 125 KK. Magistrate Newlin's son and retired Sergeant Jeffries daughter (nepotism is the only to get a public job in Middletown is alive and well), was a process server just 5 years ago, nice to be tied to the court where his Dad works, and now makes $75 Kk as a Sergeant. Ms. Jeffries was in Oxford and now in Middletown---how nice she could move over and back home where the pay is better.
The deputy chief pay, what a gig, most turn down the Chief job so they get that overtime. If you make above $125 KK, with additional bonuses, you are making the equivalent of a Director level salary in a Fortune 250. There is a double dipper in Hamilton that runs the Health Department that did not have a degree ( sound familar as in the new EMT chief sitting on council) that retired and makes $>70KK today in same position, drawing a pension.
The real significance is these salaries across Ohio, within the city, and the country, are just too high. They now have the best union (about the only union remaining), get > benefits, get off early, have limited to no achievements, and pull down a cushy $100 Kk a year salary---its revolting.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 10:09am
| Simply put, the eaxct reason the capped levy will be brought back down to 1.5% in what---two years, when its voted on after 5 years in place? Safety better, fire performance better? Paraphrasing John Boehner: "Hell no!" Time to implement real change Milddletownians, let it begin in May on the school and library levies. |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 10:52am
| stunning to think of how many top level cops and fire guys there are making over $80k...and a dispatcher making $66k? I got into the wrong business. |
Posted By: rngrmed
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 11:03am
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Uh Oh, better check where your wives have been if you're complaining about police and firefighter salaries. At least that is what I am always told. I must be mad because some policeman or firefighter has slept with my wife at some point.
Or maybe we are mad that we couldn't become cop or firefighter...
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Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 12:18pm
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With cops & firemen making this kind of money I think it's time the city quit giving in on union demands and find someone who knows how to deal with unions.
It's apparent no one at city hall knows how or even cares to know how to deal with negotiating contracts. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 3:59pm
| could we pull a reverse-outsourcing and hire out our police and fire to a Chinese or Indian company that would bring in a crew making $15k per? |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 5:32pm
| Next Public Safety Levy that will be a "No" vote to the continued Unions getting 2-3% a year while the rest of us get zip and are lucky to have jobs. The city had better start looking into some type of alternatoves or get busy raising the revenues by creating some jobs rather than increased taxes on the poverty sticken city they created. |
Posted By: NRS
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 5:49pm
| Is there an absence of transparency and accountability in Middletown's government? Yes or No? |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 5:58pm
| NRS when I looked at Adkins earlier this morning he was at $74K as he is now. I don't know when his raise took affect and if it is included here. |
Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 6:33pm
I'd be all for this ! They probably wouldn't be as cocky as the over-priced cops we have now.
How soon can we get this on the ballot ?  ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Bill wrote:Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 7:26pm
2008 for a comparison ole Gilleland did alright compared to the rest of Middletown.http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2008/City%20Of%20Middletown/ - http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2008/City%20Of%20Middletown/http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/ - Public Salaries / http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2008 - 2008 / City Of MiddletownClick on a column heading to sort the current page of results. Page: 1 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2008/City%20Of%20Middletown/2/?sort=-income - 2 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2008/City%20Of%20Middletown/3/?sort=-income - 3 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2008/City%20Of%20Middletown/4/?sort=-income - 4 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2008/City%20Of%20Middletown/5/?sort=-income - 5 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2008/City%20Of%20Middletown/6/?sort=-income - 6 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2008/City%20Of%20Middletown/7/?sort=-income - 7 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2008/City%20Of%20Middletown/8/?sort=-income - 8 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2008/City%20Of%20Middletown/9/?sort=-income - 9
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 8:32pm
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These salaries are staggering for the lack of effect and accomplishment associated with any of the positions. Most if not all, went up $10 Kk in less than two years. look at these salaries for providing limited benefit to residents. The plum jobs are those which have the gravy salaries near or over a 100 KK plus overtime---deputy fire chiefs, detectives, lieutenant on police force (detectives), Duritsch--he would not be a $100 Kk civil engineer unless he owned the company, and these few IT guys, getting paid what a DBA makes at a Fortune 500.
When you vote, when you hear these nonsensical pleas for more money, how slim pickings everything is, just look at these salaries and raises. These people feel so entitlked you'd think they were tenured profs at a university. the school system is exactly the same.
One day the majoriy will wake up, but look at all these stack ranked, awaiting for their $100 KK - $400 KK payment for unused vacation, etc., when they retore and begin the double and trifecta dip off the system. In two years, they'll have the Finance Director above $100 KK, probably more than Murphy makes at the Atrium. Well taxpaers, her's what your .25% increase bought.
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 9:30pm
http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007/ - http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007/http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/ - \Public Salaries / http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007 - 2007 / City Of Middletown Click on a column heading to sort the current page of results. Page: 1 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007/City%20Of%20Middletown/2/?sort=-income - 2 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007/City%20Of%20Middletown/3/?sort=-income - 3 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007/City%20Of%20Middletown/4/?sort=-income - 4 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007/City%20Of%20Middletown/5/?sort=-income - 5 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007/City%20Of%20Middletown/6/?sort=-income - 6 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007/City%20Of%20Middletown/7/?sort=-income - 7 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007/City%20Of%20Middletown/8/?sort=-income - 8 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007/City%20Of%20Middletown/9/?sort=-income - 9 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007/City%20Of%20Middletown/10/?sort=-income - 10 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007/City%20Of%20Middletown/11/?sort=-income - 11 http://projects.middletownjournal.com/publicsalaries/2007/City%20Of%20Middletown/12/?sort=-income - 12
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Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 10:13pm
| Hey Mgrmed, After looking at those salaries, I come to the conclusion that our wives aren't the only ones getting screwed. |
Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 11:21pm
The average starting salary for a civil engineer graduating with a 4 year degree is over 50k right now. The average salary for a civil engineer is nearly 80k. My source of the Bureau of Labor Statistics for 2009. Therefore, I don't think your statement that Mr. Duritsch would have to own the company in order to make what he's earning is accurate. He's a supervisor of a department, and I assume his duties go beyond the work of a civil engineer within a firm. I don't know how many years of experience he has in his field, but obviously this would be a factor in his salary. I'm sorry, but all this talk about salaries seems like a lot of sour grapes. |
Posted By: NRS
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 11:31pm
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Is there an absence of transparency and accountability in Middletown's government? Yes or No? |
Posted By: transplant
Date Posted: Mar 23 2010 at 11:56pm
| What I find striking is the number of employees the City of Middletown has over $60,000 versus Fairfield. 164 to 101. Hamilton though is outrageously high at 431!! From looking at all these, it seems like the smaller cities do a much better job at keeping salaries in line with the "real world" and most are nicer communities as well. |
Posted By: rngrmed
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 1:00am
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Anyone notice this? Not to single out Chief Sorrell, but these are some huge raises: 2007. $95846, 2008: $107,718 and 2009 he made $130,535.17. Are Deputy Chiefs available to make OT? That would explain it. Would think they are salary.
As far as Dave Tieman (Golf Director at Weatherwax). I've brought this up before. Retiring and coming back to teach is one thing, he teaches at Miami on City time. I have witnessed. "Holds classes" at Weather Wax students play/practice there while he supposed to be managing the course. Not on his days off either..While he is on duty. As far as being a bitter student..nope..got an A.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 1:50am
They may or may not have any relationship to an individual's current pay grade due to overtime, recent rases, or promotions. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 7:03am
Marianne for me this has absolutely nothing to do with "sour grapes" and everything to do with the financial viability of the city.
Middletown is:
1) declining in population
2) declining in Middle class population those are the people that actually produce the bulk of the tax revenue for the city.
3) Middletown has an increasing poverty level
4) Tax revenues have been down for a number of years now and declining.
5) Jobs are leaving Middletown at an alarming rate, just look at 160+/- from First Financial leaving town, further decline in tax revenues.
6) Property Values are dropping
7) unemployment is at an all time high.
8) People in the Private sector are not getting raises and in many cases are taking pay cuts.
9) we are in a recession not seen since the Great Depression
10) the city is unable to provide and perform even basic maintenance on its infrastructure and services
11) the city is laying off non Union workers to just maintain Union workers who are getting 2-3% raises at a time when the city can not afford them and at a time the private sector can not afford to pay for these raises and most likely will not pass any new Levy's to do so.
The city just added about $600,000.00+/- in new wages over the next 3 years for Police contracts. I believe the Fire Dept contracts are coming due soon and the city can not afford at this time another $600,000.00 in additional wages/benefits.
The city is going to start pushing for a renewal of the Public Safety Levy and Mulligan hinted that an infrastructure levy attempt may be coming. The city is not operating in the real world currently with its wages, this is not West Chester or even a close 5th or 6th place to West Chester. Until such time, if ever the city turns itself around belt tightening in the Public Safety area is going to be a necessity.
This is about what can Middletown afford in its current condition, which is not even treading water, not about "SOUR GRAPES".
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 7:31am
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Who participates in the performance evaluations for these people besides the city manager? Who is qualified to give an assessment of how well these people performed for the year beside the city manager? If there is and "evaluation team" during these appraisals, and if these are public service positions paid by public funds, shouldn't there be some public input as to how the public views how they performed their jobs and a public assessment of how much value the public receives from the job performances? Why isn't there public representation and why is the whole rating system not made known to the public and controlled by just one individual? Alot of "public" involvement in this post, ain't there?
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Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 7:52am
Pacman, I agree with much of what you post regarding the economy, but I do not understand the logic used here with many of the posts regarding what individuals make. Acclaro commented that what Mr. Duritsch makes is unreasonable, and that only a civil engineer who owned a company would make 100k. I disagree. Duritsch oversees a significant budget, a large number of employees, and has years of experience. From my perspective, 100k seems reasonable. You can't just look at someone's job title and decide that you think he or she makes too much. (Well, you can, but you may be speaking from a position of ignorance). You have to understand the circumstances of the individual's job. A listing of public employees salaries in the MJ does not provide any context for this. That's why I don't think those lists are very useful except as a lightning rod. |
Posted By: transplant
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 8:29am
| Marianne, what you can do however is compare city to city and from my perspective Middletown should not have this many employees making over $60,000 as compared to Fairfield especially in this poor economy and with so many issues as others have listed. These salaries when combined with the benefits they receive are not in line with what is happening in the real world. This point really cannot be debated. |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 9:15am
| my question is why does he manage so many employees? I could see if we were a vibrant growing community (with a "bright future") with a lot of business activity but why in the world does he oversee a "large number of employees"? What in the world do all these people do in this dying town with virtually no economic activity? |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:08am
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Marianne, I don't know you nor what you do for a living, but I have been in the private sector for greater than 30 years, inclduing many at a Fortiune 10 company. A civil engineer is the easiest engineering major to obtain and the least paying. I won't bother pulling up countless documentation, as that i not my point. My point is this are tenured employees where no ciuts have occurred, where no meaningful performance has been shown, that includes Duritsh behind the crumbing infradstructure. The have great perks, cetainly don't work hard, have limited if any stress, and have lifetime employment gigs. The city mamanger has transformed Middletown in any fashion---give me a break, and got a $10,500 increase. Duritsh would be lucky to have a job today in the economy as not much building is occurring, other than road construction thanks to Obama's payback to the union. The Planning Director---nearly $100 Kk, what are earth has he done? Many of these people have high school degrees, high school degrees!
Let me explain the difference. I know the average salary for a Fortune 500 for an executive runinng > $200 Mm SBU is about $150KK, and they get additional bonuses for performances. They can be fired at any time, and many times are. You don't seem to comprehend the difference in salary between these incomes and a senior executive are not that much. The execs in the private sector make it up by performance bonuses, still face termination at anytime, work 7 days a week, and have enormous stress. These indivdiuals have no stress, sit back, many walk to work, and pull down a six figure income.
They are overpaid, perform below mediocrity, and exemplify how the abuse of the system continues. They have a golf pro making $75KK when the city floats money to keep it open. I now am totally against the City of Middletown Health remaining a stand-alone entity. Let them merge with Hamilton, where 35 year nrses with Master's R.N. make $35KK annually, and the Director makes about $47,000 vs $66,000 in Middletown.
What Pacman has shown, is the Beast of Middletown. It needs to be salin, and it begins in May. Who would trade a 7 day a week position with all the hassles, air line travel, need to perform, mae revenue, EBIT, and such for a little more money, than bring the coffee mug and work 8-5 within walking distance of the hoime, pulling down $100,000 or greater annually, especially those with the high school degree. I know a kid who graduated from Fenwick, went to Wittenburg, graduated in 04, and makes >$85,000 as a police officer in West Chester. This is vulgar and it must be stopped.
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Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:14am
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Out of curiosity I looked up New York city stats to see what a police officer makes there compared to Middeltown. Now this is a comparison of populations of 50,000 versus >8 million with a tax base far superior to Middeltown.
Are police over paid in Middeltown ? You decide................
New York city.....police officer starting salary $ >35,000
5 years seniority with ALL benefits - overtime...longevity pay...holiday pay...nigh shift differential...etc...$ 65-$76,000 !!!!!
Top paid officers excluding upper management.....$ 65,000 - $ 125,000
Remember...this city has a population of more than 8 million people. Middeltown has about 50,000. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:20am
| Take a look at the Public Works Department that Davy D manages and see how many employees he has. Last time I saw this department's manpower laid out was in the street repair committee meeting a few years ago. I remember his position(actually Ginger Smith's at the time)....Director....an assist manager, a supervisor, a team leader, three machine operators and an admin. That's approx. six or seven in this department alone. Some positions, at that time, were not filled according to Smith. Is he in charge of any more departments" If so, how many employees are involved? If DD only has this one department of approx. seven, from a "number of people to manage" standpoint, IMO, he is overpaid. If he oversees multiple departments, he is probably drawing a fair salary. It's the Golf Course Director's salary of $75,000 that baffles me. Same with the dispatcher's salary of $66,000 and $64,000. This seems quite high from other dispatchers salaries I have seen in other cities. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:25am
| Hermes- how about a comparison of Newark Ohio to Middletown? Lived in Newark from 1979 to 1984 and Middletown and Newark could be sister cities. Same demographics, town atmosphere, industrial based, population, etc. Would be interesting to compare how Newark pays their police, fire, city manager, and other city positions listed on Pac's list. |
Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:44am
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Vet - The reason I checked major cities was due to the demographics. If a city the size of NY is paying what Middeltown does then something is wrong. Either NY city is under-paid or Middeltown is -over-paid.
Another one is Chicago. The mayor makes $ 216,000 & our city manager makes about 40% of that ? Governor of Illinois - $ 150,000.....patrol officer (Chicago) $36,000-$73,000 (with all benefits). And Chicago has a population of almost 3 million people.
I don't know about everybody else but I see a problem when our city manager makes almost what the governor of Illinois makes. Especially in hard economic times. And police making the same pay or more as some major U.S. cities ??!!! ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:52am
| this thread alone has convinced me to vote no on any city tax initiative -- roads, etc. |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:52am
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Why does Middletown have:
1 Fire Chief
5 Deputy Chief's
5 Captains
8 Lt.'s
39 Fire Fighters
In particular the 5 Deputy Chief's and 8 Lt.'s.
I would think a Dept. this size could do with 2 Deputy Chief's and 6 Lt.'s.
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Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:59am
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Vet - Newark,Ohio.....population a little more than 43,000
Full time cops....100....salary $±56,000.....fire department pay...77 firemen @ $69,000 yearly.
Government Administration....average salary $ >35,000
Newark has a monthly payroll of $ < 2 million. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 11:55am
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Soooo.... looks like the town size comparison is close.(within 5 thou or so) Looks like the fire pay is comparable. Same with the cops pay. Newark has 100 cops? How 'bout Middletown numbers? The biggy here is the government administration with the average pay of approx. $35 thou. Now, do these Newark salaries of 35 thou include the director/manager/dispatcher/golf course director/etc. positions, or does this 35 thou just apply to the workers/admin. in each department? You know.....as Leona Helmsly once said.....the little people.
What is Middletown's monthly government payroll compared to Newark's "less than" 2 mil? Will we be able to say that Middletown is significantly higher in salary costs than Newark when comparing cities that are similar in most categories? Not in police or fire salaries but maybe in government salaries perhaps? Marianne- would this be a fair comparison for you, and, if true, convince you that our comments are based on facts rather than "sour grapes" IF....IF we can show any difference? |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 1:55pm
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Hmmm----Marianne says its "sour grapes" for taxpayers to state city employees are vastly overpaid, provide no services of importance and indeed have cut back services, and its the taxpayers who pay for the benefit of a public servant to be employed, and yet we have a 'sour grape" mentality associated with those whom work for us? Something amiss from this logic? Middletown is simply in another solar system---no "normal" group of citizens would not see this as outrageous, but in Middletown, comments about "sour grapes" of those paying the bill are a daily occurrence.
Its caled entitlement, the union mentality. Too many think what the hell, I could have worked at Armco, but took this city job, so I'm entitled to make a large salary, provide no benefit, make great perks, because I'm a union man or woman. Comin, look at Armco, think I'm not going to get my share of the apple? That's why a school like UNC-Chapel Hill, can provide instate tuition with room and board for $11,000 vs Ohio's instate deal of about $27,000. The union effect lingers.
"Sour grapes"? You bet so when the city leadership has destroyed Middletown, keep cutting back on services, and pay salaries in a city which property values have declined among the lowest in the state, and a few residents who must also be in public service, communicate a comment about the one paying the bill being jealous of the great packages the people who work for us get.
Beward those of you looking to move to Middletown, you will encounter the most resistance to change and clinging to entitlement than any city in the country.
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Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 3:28pm
You're right: you don't know what I do for a living. For all you know, I could be one of "those people" who "just" have a high school degree and earn 100k a year. Some of those people with "just" a high school degree are a lot smarter than people with advanced degrees. The blanket statements about the working conditions as well as the mindset of city employees exemplify what I stated earlier. You have no idea about the stress levels of employees at the City Building unless they've communicated them to you. Many walk to work? Do you follow city employees home from Donham Plaza? And what's wrong with *walking* to work? Wow.... what a post. |
Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 3:39pm
Vet, I have no problem with people expressing concern about what goes on in this city, and I understand it's human nature to wonder why people earn a certain income. I've just found many of the comments on this thread regarding the personal and professional situations of employees at the City Building to be baseless unless those individuals posting know something more about each employee's situation, how their income was earned, and what their responsibilities are. Acclaro's comment about Mr. Durtisch's salary and civil engineers was, at least from my reading, incorrect. I'm in a position to know something about what engineers make professionally; I posted statistics from the Labor department regarding average salaries and pointed out that Mr. Duritsch does not function soley as a civil engineer in a firm. His counter was that civil engineering is an easy degree and that civil engineers can't get jobs now didn't refute my points. Instead he follows that with comments about city employees with "just high school degrees!" who lead stress-free lives and walk to work. Sorry, that sounds like sour grapes, or perhaps silliness to me. Just my opinion. :) |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 4:04pm
| Marianne- you can think its normal for a clerk to make $100 KK a year, and think each of evryone of these individuals earnm every dime of their pay- good for you. The city employees are overpaid, two cities reveal that Balanced Scorecard comparision (you can look the term up). You appear to be a cheerleader for the old network and pay which is outlandish for the benefits provided, again, the Neward annd NYC was quite convincing. If you don't mind paying it, more power to you. The majority get it, know its out of hand, and will defeat the coming levies, and rescind the 1.75% down to 1.5% in a few years. I'd pull up Hay Point scales but why bother. You think coity hall is worth getting paid 25% more than their contemporaries evidently. I ran a $100 MM business unit a few years ago, and didn't even invest in an Executive Assistant. Call Jim Kleingers and ask what he pays his civil engineers if you wish to "bench-mark." There must be some remarkable achievements I just haven't been privy to in the last few years. Gee...what was is? Oh, the loss of First Financia, the loss of AK executive payroll, the loss of Middletown Regional Hospital, the stagnation of the school district and failure of the land grab. But, its going to be bright in the future, that's priceless. And so is the school district (humor me---priceless?) |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 4:45pm
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Which is more galling than the comp of entrenched, upper end city employees:
o Their overly generous pension
o The absolute job security regardless of market conditions
o Their performance, silly!
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Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 4:46pm
| I'm also guessing the city building is a ghost town at 5:01pm.. does anyone put in extra time in light of their "exempt, salaried" status? |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 4:53pm
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Marianne are you saying pay should be based on the stress level of a job?
Marianne states, "You have no idea about the stress levels of employees at the City Building......"
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 5:07pm
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clearly option A, Bill.
That is the lead weight destined to break the back(and bank) of our city,state and country.
With these employees retiring at an early age at these high pay rates(so they can double dip), and living much longer today(though Obama's health care program could seriously shorten lifespans), there is absolutely no way the few still working(for less) can sustain this system.
Do the math Marianne--do you REALLY think that it can work?
Stress here?
With these retirement conditions?
lol
What about the private sector with benefits nowhere approaching this bloated level, and no guarantee of getting anytthing down the road from struggling businesses and funding?
Obviously the fire dept. has too many chiefs for their staffing, and is far out of line.
A public safety renewal will be a VERY hard sell, understandably, since even that .25% can't sustain the up-coming retirement expenses.
Obviously municipal, govt. and education system employees need to be brought into the Social Security system, Medicare/Medicaid and new health care programs. Good enough for us--good enough for them, especially since we bear the cost burden.
jmo
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Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 5:23pm
No, I'm saying that acclaro has no idea what stress levels are experienced by city employees unless he is one. He made a claim about city employees not having any stress; I question how he can make such a claim. |
Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 5:25pm
Not sure how you come up with this question based on what I posted. I'm not even sure what you're asking. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 5:44pm
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Marianne- city employee stress? LOL! These are tenured employees, they'd have to commit a felony to be fired. Look at the years they have and how rapidly they zoom up th payscale. Bill was right on, at 5:00 pm, don't be near the elevator (rather the stairwell). The stress must be unbearable for the city employees such as the ED Department. I mean, they are waiting on SunCoke to build the plant that AK initiated, and see all this buisness leaving, but surely don't show any stress. The city manager? Got nearly a $11Kk raise while nothing has been accomplished other than more business being lost, and the wrecker ball tearing down Middletown. The city law director- the stress associated with how to by-pass the city council votes and get the at large removed (I don't care about that but am intelligent enough to comprehend the motivation). Hell, these are the best paid upper class in Middletown.
Do I know stress? Yes. I work 7 days a week, travel about 4, do turn-arounds for large F100's, and have p/l for a large unit producing about $300 MM annually. I'm about $20 KK above the city mnager, make the rest up in bonuses, and put in about 12 hr average days.
End of story, public employees drastically overpaid. Same job security as a tenured professor, and I assume Dean Cowen was/ is tenured so she can do her thing with downtown Middletown---what has that produced?.
I have seen no meaningful results anywhere of any reasonable measure in Middletown in years. There's the real world, and the unreal world of the public sector and Middletown has a lifestyle anyone would trade in a NY minute for. The Beast is documented, and the care and feeding is out of hand. Will it change? Entirely up to the voter, but this is a pretty easy deciion for anyone evaluating the facts here.
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Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 5:44pm
I just want to point out - yet again - the problems with some statements made on this site. Goto http://www.nypdrecruit.com/ "PRESS RELEASE SEPTEMBER 26, 2008 Police Officers overwhelmingly approved a contract that gives them a 17% raise over four years. Members of the PBA approved the contract by 99.4%. Under the agreement, the January 2009 Police Academy class will have a starting base salary of $40,361 and goes to $41,975 on August 1, 2009. When adding holiday pay, uniform allowance, and average night differential; a first-year Police Officer will have a total salary of $46,228 before overtime. The base pay will increase every year to $76,488 after 5.5 years. When adding holiday pay, uniform allowance, average night differential, and longevity pay; a Police Officer with 5.5 years will earn $90,829 before overtime." So after five and a half years on the force, an officer will earn 90k BEFORE overtime. The quoted salaries of patrol officers in the MPD do not include years of service. Of those listed, how many have 5.5 years experience, and what is their pay *before overtime*? I assume that the salary statistics from the MJ *include* what people made through overtime, but perhaps I'm wrong. Therefore, to compare what MPD officers make to what NYPD officers make and say that this proves the MPD is overpaid makes no sense. So, no, acclaro, the NYC comparison was not "quite convincing." |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 5:54pm
| Marianne, I could have studies of salaries pulled up out of my global firm's knowledge base, and nothing would convince you otherwise these employees have great perks, limited to no stress, and lifetime employment. So why bother? There is nothing which has been produced of significance, anyone can clearly see overhead which is out of hand, including a former superintendant out of the parochial system who condemned the runaway overhead in MCSD in the last levy, and there are many attorneys not making 1/2 of what the city law director makes in Middletown. Your analogy has no more credibility than Chuck Furmon at Butler Cty Commission saying some clerk from small town USA in Kentucky deserves $93,000. because she grew up in the same small town in Hazard that he did. I'd like Mr. Wainscott to run the city and school system for a year, cut it to the bone, and watch the results come forth. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 6:05pm
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The wages on the list are reported TOTAL GROSS WAGES (paid by the City of Middletown) for 2009!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: TANGO
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 6:17pm
One other thing to look at for this kind of money, do we have top notch staff ,that cares about their job and are they worth it? example marty koh ler les landen...........
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Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 7:57pm
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The numbers for NYPD are not even comparable when you count the inflated COL in the NY area. You'd have to pay a NY cop 40-50% more pay compared to an Ohio standard of living.
Acclaro, the more you talk, the more sense you make. You guys may make a MUSA curmegeon out of me yet!
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Posted By: rngrmed
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 12:40am
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Marianne-- So I should ask my boss for a raise based on stress level? Having 5 patients in an ICU setting? Managing patients wtih several different medications for blood pressure and trying to get them home to their families. When there is an issue and you attempt to call the doctor and they will not call back, but I can not make a medical decision. Who do you think gets in trouble? The nurse. Not the doctor for not calling back. How is that for stress?? Last time I called the police department someone turned left on to 122 in to the west bound lane and they were travelling east bound, happned about 10 pm at night. I was made to feel like I was wrong because I didn't get an license plate number or an adequate description of the car.Let's not forget how many times I have almost been run off the road by a dispatcher driving a city car. Job is stressful because they create the stress.
What about the cops that tased an ER nurse while she had her back turned getting medications out of pyxis at the old Middletown hospital, the bringing in their automatic rifles to show off?
Overpaid and out of control!
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 7:50am
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Marianne--my response was based on the overall message of this thread.
As you rationalize the municipal situation, I was simply asking if you viewed this continuation as being sustainable in the long run.
I apologize if I am too vague or not communicating my thoughts clearly.
Though sometimes I think it comes down to simply not agreeing or accepting my message.
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Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 8:20am
Not sure how many different ways I can say it, but I'll try again: I just don't think you can speculate as to people's stress levels at their work. Why is that so difficult to understand? Acclaro made a statement about city employees *not* being stressed. I questioned how he could know what they were experiencing unless he spoke with them. I wasn't suggesting they either are or are not stressed. I wasn't suggesting that people need to be paid because they're stressed. That's all. |
Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 8:24am
I wasn't rationalizing the municipal situation just pointing out what I regard as basic facts about what people can and cannot know about an individual's mindset. My initial point was that the data provided by the MJ without any context for that data is not particularly useful. I don't believe there's anything more I wish to say about it. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 8:39am
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Individual mindsets are a personal issue to be managed internally.
Not all stress is employment-created, with the majority of stress brought from outside issues into the work environment(please leave your personal baggage at home!)
Personal discussion here is always optional, with this being a long-running topic that will continue on it's own.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 8:53am
| Marianne- how much stress would you say is in the academic world where you reside? If acclaro comes from the corporate world, I can identify with his stand on the subject. I worked at P&G and at International Paper in the "epitome of corporate America" and can verify the stress placed on the employees at that level. I couldn't imagine the city building being close to the stress levels of the corporate world, particularly with companies like P&G or International Paper where decisions one makes/performance one has on a day to day basis, decides the profitability of the product and therefore, decides the success or failure of one's future with the company. I would imagine the turnover in the corporate world is much higher than the academic or the public employee world solely by the difference in the pressures placed on the individuals to perform to create profits for the companies, in order to survive. JMO |
Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 9:00am
Vet, I reside in Middletown. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 9:27am
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Vet, I have worked in the corporate world for 30 years- IBM, Boston Consulting Group, Chevron, and others. I think this discussion is beginning to take on the appearance of a clinical psychology thesis. Stress is not the issue. The issue is overpaid employees whom are not subjected to on the job stress. The pay cannot be rationalized objectively---the employees are simply over paid. One can manifest stress in any fashion. A celebrity can have an anxiety attak (Barbra Streisand) by getting upon the stage- stage fright. I driver snow-ploiwng snow may have stress, avoiding hitting a mail box at night.
The correlation with stress is tha in the private sector, the damnds for profit, meeting objectives, are enormously high, and much higher than the publeic sector. But I emphasize again, stress is not the issue, overpayment is, for what the contribution to be, and what the hrs put in to be, and what return on that activity provide. I'll glad trade by position for three months with city manager Gilleland. She can get up at 4 am on Monday, drive to Cincy, board a 6 am flight, fly 3-4 cities all over the country, and come home Friday. Then start it all gain on Monday, after spending the weekend doing reports and monitoring profit margins.
In Middletown, a $100 KK income would allo you to live extremely comfortable, and I ask again---what accomplishments in thre years have come forth? I know aht my measures are each month, what about the city? That slogan will be worth 5 years of job security. They all have seniority. That's why th public safety levies come out---they don't want to disrupt the natural pecking order. You don't have to have a Master's in Organizational Behavioal to see these salaries, the results, benchmark against surrounding cities, and realize how horrifically overpaid they are while the resukts have been to ruin our property values. The meaning of stress is significant only in the sense besides great benefits and lack of stress, the pay is fantastic. All things being eual, 9 out 10 would trade their job for city job, where they can work, have limited pressure, and know they have lifetime employment, just like a tenured professor. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE. When you add to the fact, the city is supposed to be hemorraging, reality and payroll simply doesn't reflect that!
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Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 1:03pm
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Lets say this one more time....police officers, the city manager, and others in and out of city hall are over paid. The police are over paid because the city does not negotiate with the union apparently, it appears that the city just gives the union whatever they ask for, (and no I don't know that for a fact but I judge by appearances) are police stressed ? Sure ! Any job is stressful. It wouldn't be a job if it did not carry some stress, it goes with the territory. If your not under some amount of stress at work your not working !!
As for the comparisons I made with NY city and Chicago it was to demonstrate or illustrate what a larger city pays compared to a smaller city like ours. If Middeltown is paying a cop $80,000 a year then in actuality New York city should be paying the same position at twice or maybe three times that due to location. The cost of living alone in NY would justify an income of over $100,000, but Middeltown is not NY city !! People live just fine here on incomes ranging from $25,000 - $45,000 a year, yes they struggle but survive. (I wouldn't want 5 kids on that income)
Bottom line here folks....the city manager is over paid by at least $50,000 dollars...cops are over paid by at least $40,000.(if $76,000 is base pay) and you can go down the line and subtract $10,000 - $20,000 from everyone on that list to bring the pay into reality. I've said it before that union's are a double edged sword. A union can hold a company or a city hostage until they get what they want, at the same time had it not been for union's hourly pay & working conditions for all of us would still be on the level it was in 1910. We would have employers paying $2.00 an hour for a job that should pay $15.00. But good negotiating skills is required & is a must and you can't be afraid of a strike or walkout simply because some high priced union lawyer is making demands & threats.
When the tax base can not support the salaries & pay of city officials then you have a problem & we have a problem in this town !! The industry is no longer here...AK no longer supports the city....but for some reason people can not accept it. City hall continues to operate as if we have the largest tax base in the state. They are continuing to ride the gravy train as if nothing is wrong. And as long as money keeps flowing from DC money tree it will stay this way. When the money stops,and it will, then we'll all be making a thread on here asking "wonder whatever happened to Gilleland and that bunch that use to run the city ?". ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 1:29pm
| Marianne- my question to you was where you resided as to career path (ie, academic field, private business or public service field) rather than where you lived.....but, that's ok, I realize you may be reluctant to answer the question. Actually, you have already answered it in previous posts if one would take the time to research it on this site. I believe you had made reference to the academic field....specifically as a MUM professor/collegue in the English department. |
Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 2:13pm
Vet, if I'm "reluctant" to answer the question - and I'm not sure there was one - it's because I don't think the answer is relevant. But to satisfy your curiosity: I have worked in professional and academic settings. In other words, my employers include corporations and universities. Unless it's directly relevant, and for what I've posted in this thread, it's not, I don't see a need for me to cite years I've worked, companies where I've worked, amount of budgets I've overseen, or any of the other details presented by others. And I do reside in Middletown. :) |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 3:30pm
| Marianne- You indicate that you didn't know if there was a question. To clarify..... How much stress would you say is in the academic world where you reside? That is a question followed by a question mark for clarity. You know this as you are an academic, right? I guess you can refrain from answering a question based on the relevancy, but most people will still provide some degree of courtesy with regard to the source of the question. In the end, it's still your choice to not respond. I will respect that. If you indeed, have worked for corporations, then you are aware that the pressures placed on the employees are quite different as we compare the differences between public service/government, private corporations and the academic worlds. If you have worked for private corporations, you may have observed that the comparison between salaries within comparable jobs seems a bit higher in the charts presented by Pacman than what we generally see in private companies. Actually, IMO, the number of years worked and the places that you have worked would cement your work history diversity and seasoned veteran status in this discussion. Others in this discussion have given an overview as to their background as it pertains to salaries in different fields of employment. You seem to rely heavily on relevancy when offering anything to the discussion as if to conceal something. Perhaps not. |
Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 4:20pm
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I don't understand anyone that would defend the payroll in this town, unless of course you were related to the issue,i.e. worked there, married to someone who worked there, etc. Regardless of the amount of education in this economy & present condition of the city no one can justify paying these kind of salaries. If anything cuts are called for, not increases. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 4:42pm
Right on Hermes.
At the very least there should be a wage freeze citywide. If the Unions don't like it, then the next increase they get start laying off enough Union employees to cover the wage increase for those left. I will also not vote for a renewal on the Public Safety levy or a street levy, until the city starts listening to its citizens and starts getting its act together.
I also see that ashkicker who normally chimes in on these issues hasn't. Still wondering what all that Brass at the Fire Dept. is needed for?
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Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 5:06pm
| I apologize for the "double" post that appeared - the result of editing I suspect. It wouldn't let me delete the original post. |
Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 6:03pm
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Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 6:34pm
Well thank you wasteful, remember me in the next presidential election.
 As for all the brass within the fire department...I wonder if there is a set rule by state as to the number of officers for departments ? This could explain it, or it's the union. Not sure which. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 7:23pm
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Jeepers, Marianne we all know who you are, you are the girl on the left. Celebrity does have its price.  |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 7:31pm
| Yeah but I mean the 5 Deputy Chiefs and 8 Lieutenants. Why do we need 5 Deputy Chiefs? |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 8:13pm
| Fair enough Marianne. Further discussion is futile. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 8:25pm
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Hmmm....first it was Ms. Andrews, and now Marianne, all who...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE
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Posted By: stewieboy
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 8:31pm
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The salary listed for fire, police, and dispatchers include overtime pay. Without knowing how much of it is overtime and regular pay any discussion about pay rate is unfair. I know the 2 dispatchers mentioned in the list above worked considerable overtime because of employee shortage. Duritch oversees the largest department in the city, not including fire and police. I believe he has as a master degree and has been with the city for quite a while so I don't think his salary is out of line.
I have a masters degree as well and have 20 years work experience both in private and public sector and I assure you my name is not in the salary list. I strongly believe my city job pay is 10-20% below industry standard. I am not complaining because I like my job here.
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Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 9:38pm
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stewie, you must have a death wish! |
Posted By: transplant
Date Posted: Mar 25 2010 at 11:12pm
| After reading these posts the wages may be high and unrealistic in this economy but the unions are not about to give much back given the typical union mentality of entitlements. When times were good past administrations and commissions gave too high of increases that now must be accounted for. From what some have said the state doesn't help cities while negotiating with unions. Do you penalize employees not in unions (typically senior level top staff with advanced educational degrees) who have worked hard to achieve their current positions? |
Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 7:55am
I'm not sure about further discussion being futile, but I'm not going to give you my professional work history just because you say I need to do in order to have credibility. You need to read more of acclaro's posts; he likes sharing that stuff. |
Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 8:01am
No, I haven't bitten the dust, just stated that my personal information doesn't need to be paraded on a message board with a group of strangers just because someone says I need to demonstrate my "work history diversity". My statement that you can't really evaluate the "fairness" of MJ's list of salaries without knowing their context still stands. I don't see those lists as particularly useful. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 8:15am
| It's alright, Marianne, I understand your position and don't want to irritate you any further. You seem very sensitive concerning your work history. No need to elaborate. Thank you. |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 8:25am
Transplant you are right about Unions and the entitlement mentality that they have. It is not just past administrations that have caused the problems, the current Admin. just past a Police Contract with the standard 3% basically a year raise for the next 3 years costing about $600,000.00 over the next 3 years. They will most likely do the same thing with the Fire Dept. Until the city starts laying off those specific groups to pay for these increases which are uncalled for in this time of economic downturn the problem will continue. The citizens must also do their part and vote no on the upcoming Public Safety levy.
The city just penalized employees not in Unions to pay for the raises of the ones in Unions, what 7 people got laid off. I haven't really questioned senior management as to what they make, although if I were Gilleland I think i would have forgone the $10k increase. or at the least deferred it for now, even though my contract called for it I am sure. I question the need for 5 Deputy Chiefs in the Fire Dept. and 8 Lieutenants. Cutting 5 of those positions would save $500,000.00+/- a year. Or simply replacing them with just Fire Fighters would probably save at least $150,000.00+/- a year. I am not seeing the need for that much Brass at the top.
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Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 8:32am
Yeah, that's it. Haha. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 9:10am
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To correct Mariane's misstatement as if fact, I have provided a few compnaies I have had the pelasure of working with some general background on experince. That is to lend some crdibility to comparison to salry ranges for the privte sector from one whom work with VP's of HR weekly, uses Hay Points, and knows in a large firm like Ernst & Young, or a big 4 consultancy, the EA would support about 7 Partners (shared resource), and make maybe $55,000. in a prime market like NYC, where the COL is much higher than Middletown.
Now, anyone who believes these pay scales are not inflated, well, I benechamrk on the Fortune 100's. Since 911, pay for salary has drastically been cut back. An SVP will make about $150 KK as I have said earlier, with much of the pay made up by performance bonus including SLA (Service Level Agreement) performance. How well do you thimg the city would do on a survey or poll for "customer satisfaction"? They would be below 50% I believe.
This has reached the point you either are a city employee and think you ar entitled, or you are a realist and know these pay scales keep going up even during bad times, whil most private sector positions are frozen and tied to performance achievement.
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Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 10:08am
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acclaro - With all due respect the things you refer to are companies who produce and answer only to stock holders & board directors, Middeltown is not a company and does not produce a product or service from which it can make a profit to sustain itself. The city relies on tax payers, the salaries of city employees come from the tax payer so to mention companies or comparing operations is mute. (or perhaps I missed your point) stewieboy - You say the police & fire pay includes OT...well either that is way to much OT or the hourly pay is to high. Now while I won't debate the OT issue because I know the PD does in fact work a lot of OT plus officers get extra for equipment, uniforms, etc, etc with that being the case then the base pay is still to high for a city the size of Middeltown. Base pay could be $36 K and with OT an officer could still live fine, not as good as $76 K but they would survive.------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 11:05am
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Hermes I beg to differ with you. The city does produce services:
It has a water service, Water Dept.
It has a Security Service, Police Dept.
It has an Emergency Medical Service, Fire Dept.
It has a Fire Service, Fire Dept.
It has a Jail Service
It runs a Garbage Service, farmed out to Rumpke
It has a Public Works Service.
These are all services which all cities run and provide to the Taxpayers, for which the taxpayers pay a portion of the fee to operate them.
Now the fact that Middletown Admin and City Council has:
Not repaired the infrastructure
Got itself into a situation of excessive section 8 and public housing
Has a poor performing school system by state standards
Has gotten itself into a situation where they are financially strapped.
Having run off many businesses due to not repairing the infrastructure, letting poverty get out of hand.
Having run off much of the Middle Class by it's above decisions
Has basically been part of the reason for the decline in Real estate values and the inability for many to sell their homes.
Is not the fault of the Taxpayer or the consumer of their services the city provides that the above has occurred and now they have themselves ina financial mess. The Citizens however are the ones that suffer for the current situation.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 11:16am
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Hermes, you missed the point. I said an executive at a Fortune 500 has more at risk on earning bonuses than a public servant that has no measures of performance in place to "grade" achievement. Are you suggesting Gilleland actually has produced results which dictate a 10.5 KK raise? And if so, for what?
This is from the Bureau of Labor and Statistics from 2009 December for all states, al cities, large and small (San Francisco, Dallas, Chicago, New York City, Charlotte, Atlanta, Houston). If this doesn't convince you, many have failed Math 101 (or a relative of any of the three city commisioners in Butler Cty.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs042.htm#earnings - http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs042.htm#earnings
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Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 2:25pm
I feel like I'm back in grade school and have been called out on the playground!
Where do I start..........................................
The "Brass" --
One Chief -- Botts
Three Deputy Chiefs -- Dominy, Lolli & Snively
Five Captains -- Adams, Day, Justice, Spaulding & Wissemeier
Eleven Lieutenants -- Bevenger, Blake, Bronnenberg, Cobb, Curry, Harvey, Hoerst, Ludwig, Oliver, Rose & Von Bargen
Fifty-five Fire Fighters
Why is it "needed?"
Three platoons which consists of one D/C, an officer for each of the four stations with a fire truck plus one "float" officer.
First Platoon -- D/C, Capt @ Station 81, Lts @ HQ, Stations 82 & 84 plus one "float" Lt
Second Platoon -- D/C, Capt @ Station 82, Lts @ HQ, Stations 81 & 84 plus one "float" Lt
Third Platoon -- D/C, Capts @ HQ & Station 84, Lts @ Stations 81 & 82 plus one "float" Lt
I don't know how the "Brass" numbers were determined but imagine someone counted the names in the Journal's public employee payroll list. Since we had two D/Cs retire during 2009, both they and their promoted counterparts were listed as D/Cs, hence the incorrect number five was cited.
I understand the poster's frustrations but ple-e-e-e-e-e-ease research your information before you post. Some one who doesn't read this post may go away still believing your incorrect numbers.
Spider,
Yes, I can retire with 25 years of service as long as I am 48 years old. How many older police and fire fighters do you see? This is a young man's game, as it should be. When I retire, I have to pay for my health care before I am eligible for Medicaid/care, currently running around $1000/month for retiree and spouse. As a fire fighter I do not pay into Social Security, however, working a part time job I would pay into Social Security. Once retired, I am told if I draw Social Security, my fire fighter pension is reduced by the same amount. So, I pay into a system that I will not benefit from. Before this board goes absolutely crazy, I am not whining and complaining about my job/benefits, only stating facts.
One more thing,
The City Council decides how much money will be put towards my health care benefits. The City's health care committee then decides the best way to use that money. Some posters here seem to believe the health care committee decides everthing about my health care including how much the city spends.
Thats all for now.
Ashkicker
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Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 2:50pm
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acclaro - I did miss your point but you cleared it up for me in the above post,thanks.
By NO MEANS do I believe that Gilleland has earned her pay !!! If I had any control over it her pay would be the first cut made !! See my other post where I state,IMO, she is over paid by at least $50 k. And no I don't agree with a $10-$11 K pay raise for her either.
------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 5:06pm
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thanx for the reply, ash.
In no way do I disagree with what you have said, and I respect all of the fire crew, though sometimes I wonder(in all areas) if job titles/promotions have more to do with pay rate than job performance.
My only point being the long-range expense gorilla that seems destined to collapse from it's own weight.
Public safety-municipal works-administration-schools from kindergarten to universities--government workers/politicians from local to federal.
Tell me ash, if you don't mind---how do you see this playing out?
How strong is the public employee concern that the long-range expense cannot be sustained?
Hey--no issue with anyone taking what is offered.
Issue with politicians allowing it to continue.
Disappointed with myself for not entering a govt.workforce immediately after high school graduation.
The grass is always greener I guess--and I can count my blessings as being very fortunate.
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 5:59pm
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AshKicker I believe that most of the discussion on this Board concerning Health Care was not how much the City Spends, but what employees contribute to their health care in the form of amount paid out of their checks. The last time I checked for the Police Dept., which was a while ago, it was 7% far below what the average worker pays now a days.
As far as the Brass Count you have more Brass than Wasteful actually counted by using the salary list.
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Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Mar 26 2010 at 10:46pm
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Spider,
Even in the small brain of this fire fighter, I realize a cash cow must have a lush green (Money) field to eat from to maintain it's weight.
That being said, reduction in Middletown's fire department would be devastating to our citizens. Please, do not get me wrong, I am not trying to scare people for the sake of my benefits. With this economy, some people seem to be using the fire department as their private home health care. I beleive this mentality is the reason the Chief stated a new health care facility would help reduce our run volume. It seems like a weekly event anymore that we have 5 to 6 squad runs at the same time. That type of event requires us to call in Monroe and Franklin.
It is MY belief that fire fighters would take a pay cut or freeze before layoffs happen. I realize many people on the board view fire fighters, or any public employee, as greedy people. We do care about the citizens in this town and do work to protect them.
As far as my numbers being higher than wasted cited in relation to FD "brass", D/Cs, being the highest paid, needed a truthful number posted. As far as having more Lts than wasted noted, I make an honest attempt to give all the facts, not just the ones that make us look good.
Ashkicker
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Mar 27 2010 at 8:08am
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come on Ash--in no way did I imply any laxck of smarts with you or anyone else(please don't put words in my mouth or speak for me). I under-estimated the total # of fire/emergency employees. I totally/emphatically agree that the public seriously abuses this dept. for their non-emergency health care. The fact that you have to respond with an overkill of manpower/firepower is not lost either.
Still--put the dept.heads together and please give their explanation of how the public can adequately fund the retirement/benefit package down the road. This beast is NOT going away--only getting larger, especially when you factor in un-employment rise and no real new jobs or business profits on the horizon. This is a major issue that much be addressed. We cannot continue to joyride down the road at 90mph off the top of the mountain when the road($$$) abruptly ends.
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Posted By: TANGO
Date Posted: Mar 27 2010 at 8:10am
| ashkicker The firefighters were ask to take a freeze but did not,thats the way the union works. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 27 2010 at 11:30am
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Lets face it, the city council is like a Board of Directors at NCR, who the CEO hand-picked those whom he knew when he was at Cisco. What happened? He was able to commute from New York, never moved, hated Dayton, and had no ties to it, and shut it down, to move to a more upscale area in Georgia than being tied to the rust belt.
City council is the same. These people make peanuts, but like the feeling of power of doing something civic, or maybe even getting their business some additionl visibility. The outcome is no oversight, rubber staming virtually everything that is requested on emergnecy legislation, and finding loopholes to make sure the Beast is always taken care of.
In spite of what Ashkicker staes, or anyone in the police epartment, the salaries and overtime, + benefits, are just overly high for a city with so much poverty and on its size. In both Texas, Michigan, and North Carolina, the very highest end of a city manager's position is about $125,000., and in Michigan, its 100,000.
So, Ashkicker is a norml human, like others who want to protect what they have, state they are indispensible, how many runs are made, et al. In reality, I bet you could evaluate the police and fire departments, and you'd see an increase in employees when the population has remained the same for many years. Its only natural they want it to grow, that's how they get promotions, gt to the higher pay grades, get more for retirement. There is no one at city council going to stop this, why would they? I've said it before. You have Mr. Mulligan-Dad retired from water department. Mr. Marconi, no loner on council but on zoning Commission, knows when he prime development is coming and going (and profited accordingly).
The only way to get hired is through nepotism- just like Mr. Newlin's son, and Mr. Jeffries daughter. The power is all within the city, and these outlandish payscales and perks won't change. As for the fire department being called, I live in a cul de sac where about twice a month two massive fire trucks appear when an elderly man or woman has a health problem. They come, check out the situtaion, and then they are gone. Myabe the citizen should be charged about $1,000. for these runs, but these are not life and death scenarios, aand I'd say 35% of the calls, maybe more, are not emergencies requiring hospitalization.
Term limits should be put in place in both city council and school board. There is no justification for Ms. O'Neil to be on the board > 15 years, and several ran unopposed, including Ms. Andrews---what's their motivation?
This is the danger and the waste which has been an outcome of the system in Middletown. Council members are exactly like the stacked NCR board Bill Nuti built, and with the same outcome. They don't care what city leadership does, they work for them. The resultant is these runaway salaries, benefits, and then nonsense levies wanting more, while sevices are taken away and overhead continues.
There should be a mayor making a decent living helping drive development, than a department pulling down $250KK being the mouthpiece for Neyer. The city manager's income should be cut, and a mayor and manager sharing the role. Counil members need to be more than sons of former employees, or retirees filling their time. And the young bucks should not be given high fives for stating the oobvious---too mch emergency legislation---and the constituents jump up and down thinking, wow, we're making real headway here now, this vote was put on hold for two weeks.
The ship is going down, unless you are the tenured employees in city hall. Sorry, Ashkicker, your numbers, span of control, and other quantitative figures just aren't cutting it anymore, the public safety nonsense just isn't going to get a levy passed in spite of the nursing homes and retirees being the easy target for votes.
For a change Middletownians, THINK.
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Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 27 2010 at 12:42pm
Perhaps acclaro isn't so clear in his posts, so I may be misreading what he wrote, but his statement regarding the "very highest end of a city manager's position is about $125,000" in Texas is wrong. http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/government-employee-salaries/search/title/?q=city%20manager Employee Title Search : "city manager" Name Agency Title Salary Sheryl L. Sculley San Antonio City Manager $315,000 Mary Suhm Dallas City Manager's Office $278,460 Thomas Muehlenbeck Plano City Manager $270,969 Tomas Gonzalez Irving City Manager $246,384 Marc Ott Austin City Manager $242,008 William E Dollar Garland City Manager $229,500 Taylor Alan M Amarillo City Manager $228,820 Fisseler Dale A Fort Worth City Manager $226,595 LEE ANN DUMBAULD Lubbock City Manager $225,002 Joyce Ann Wilson El Paso City Manager $216,744 Ryan Evans Dallas City Manager's Office $204,117 Pasquale Digiovanni San Antonio Deputy City Manager $193,445 Arthur Rodriguez San Antonio Deputy City Manager $191,602 Martin E Glenn Garland Deputy City Manager $187,864 Michael Mcdonald Austin Assistant City Manager $185,848 Humberto Lumbreras Austin Assistant City Manager $185,848 Robert Goode Austin Assistant City Manager $185,848 Rudy Garza Austin Assistant City Manager $185,848 Sue Edwards Austin Assistant City Manager $185,848 Bruce Glasscock Plano Deputy City Manager $178,001 J Jordan Dallas City Manager's Office $177,085 Montgomery Karen Lynne Fort Worth Assistant City Manager $176,134 Arthur Gonzalez Dallas City Manager's Office $175,500 Angel R. Escobar Corpus Christi City Manager $172,708 Forest Turner Dallas City Manager's Office $172,220 Atkinson William J Amarillo Deputy City Manager $172,000 Frank Turner Plano Deputy City Manager $171,221 Costa Fernando Fort Worth Assistant City Manager $169,957 Higgins Thomas M Fort Worth Assistant City Manager $169,957 Daniels Charles W Fort Worth Assistant City Manager $169,957 |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 27 2010 at 3:04pm
 Your figures are grossly exaggerated, and the ave medium physician in the nation Marianne makes < than $150,000 annually nationally. Its obvious when you factor in the fact Middletown is a Mansfield, or Youngstown comparison riddled with poverty, these six figure incomes are outlandish. If you wish to pay them, please start an endowment---taxpayers are already being screwed by Butler Cty taxes and the City of Middletown's steep decline. The above is medium income in all 50 states amortized with medium city manager income.
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Mar 27 2010 at 3:06pm
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Marianne your comparison is out of kilter also you are comparing Dallas to Middletown.....San Antonio to Middletown.......Fort Worth to Middletown. Lets do Like the BOE likes to do and compare like demographics at least.
Declining Population
Low Income
High Poverty Rate
A Section 8 Voucher program at 1 voucher for every 29 residents. Now this one I have looked from California to Maine to Florida, and of course Marianne I haven't checked every program in the USA before you start in and I could find no Housing program with this ratio of Section 8 vouchers to residents.
Declining tax revenue
High Unemployment, doubt you will find that in Texas. Texas is one of, if not the only states growing.
The point is when you add up all of these issues and the ones not listed Middletown can not afford the employee salaries and benefits that it is paying. You can live in denial and say this is what the Jones' are paying but that is immaterial to Middletown's situation currently. If all was well and prosperous we wouldn't even be having this discussion but it isn't and there does not appear to be any fix for Middletown in the foreseeable future, at least not under the current Leadership.
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Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 27 2010 at 4:31pm
Pacman, Please reread my post: I was correcting acclaro's statement that the highest a city manager makes in Texas is $125,000. I was not comparing figures, just offering some facts to counter an erroneous claim. That's it. |
Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Mar 27 2010 at 4:34pm
Your posts are making less sense to me the more I read them. Maybe you should change your handle? You made a claim about what city managers in Texas made that seemed wildly inaccurate. I provided facts that show your statement was incorrect. Pretty basic stuff. That's all there was to my post: correcting an error. :) |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 27 2010 at 6:13pm
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Perhaps you choose to internalize what you desire to believe? You are beginning to sound very comparable to Ms. Andrews, always wanting to attempt to be the smartest in the room Mariane. I just provided you with a 2009 bar graph which provided the medium income range for a city manager in the state of Texas. It also seems to be your ploy Marianne, to get off topic, try to change the focus, and then throw nonsensical statements out there for public digestion.
Marianne, I believe 9 out of 10 Americans would agree city managers in California make more than those in Ohio. I believe 9 out of 10 Americans know a city manager in a city that has a 1,,000,000 residents makes more annually than one in a city of 50,000.
Pickerington fired its previous city manager and is paying between 90K-100K as it concludes its present search. That's where JG came from, so she is 30% higher. I look forward to your endowment Marianne as I am certain future levies will be failing. Between Middletown and Butler Cty, not all citizens are so willing to accept mediocrity with high pay. Those days have ended.
http://www.wclt.com/news/articledetail.cfm?articleID=31588 - http://www.wclt.com/news/articledetail.cfm?articleID=31588
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