City Land Swap With Duncan Oil
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: Economic Development
Forum Description: Local government efforts to develop the local Middletown area economy.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2383
Printed Date: Mar 29 2025 at 11:00am
Topic: City Land Swap With Duncan Oil
Posted By: randy
Subject: City Land Swap With Duncan Oil
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 11:57am
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The city of Middletown and Duncan Oil are about to enter into what looks like a lengthy contract all for the sake of a train station. According to the work book for this December 1, 2009 city council meeting, Duncan Oil and the City will swap what looks like 30 pieces of land in the downtown area 22 of which the city owns. I did some research today on the Butler County Auditors website and put together a map of the land that city owns and will be trading to Duncan Oil for the building of a new gas station/ store. In return the city gets the 8 pieces of land that Duncan owns for development of the new train station. Here is the map with the city’s land highlighted in red, /images/citys-purchase.jpg">
Click for larger map I did try to find the land that Duncan Oil will be using for this trade, but the Butler County Auditor’s site seemed to begin to act up as I started my search. I do know that one is the old Shamrock Station and the other looked to be the old office outfitters or a building near there. It is hard to see anything on these maps. If you would like to try and search for yourself, you can go to http://propertysearch.butlercountyohio.org/butler/Search/GenericSearch.aspx?mode=PARID - Butler County Auditor’s and just enter the Parcel Id number which you can find here http://www.middletownusa.com/view_news.asp?a=4777 - City of Middletown and Duncan Oil Gateway Project ------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Replies:
Posted By: Mr. Dave
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 1:19pm
| I find it very odd that the the city would be give up so much land to Duncan Oil on the HOPE (because thats all it is right now) that a train will stop here in Middletown. I guess if does come here the passengers can walk over to the Duncan gas station and buy something, thats all there will be in that area. This is a joke to me, and just one more example of waste from the city building. |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 1:37pm
And once again we pull the Old, "Declare an Emergency" Legislation hocus pocus.
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Posted By: John Beagle
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 1:50pm
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When 'time is of the essence' then emergency resolutions are acceptable. I am not sure if this was a sudden event or something that just came up. One thing is for sure, local governments use the emergency provisions all too often for my taste. I have discussed this here: http://www.mainstreetmonroe.com/voice/topic.asp?topic_id=16335 - |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 1:59pm
| John when you have a Council Meeting on Tuesday and you usually throw the Agenda and Workbook up on the City website on the Friday before, that is BS and a way to run over the citizens. We are talking about building a Train Station for a train that we don't even know is coming. |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 3:17pm
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Folks, I hate to burst your bubble, but it has never been part of the plan to build a new train station. All documents I've read related to the Ohio Hub and 3C Line indicate using EXISTING stations. And that includes the existing Middletown station. Now, I have no doubt that the city will need to acquire the historic train station from the Finkleman family, and likely at a pretty penny. But there is not going to be a new train station.
You can view a conceptual plan for the Middletown Station on page 5 of the following document:
http://www.cityofmiddletown.org/docs/ed/dsp/dsp_chapter3.pdf - http://www.cityofmiddletown.org/docs/ed/dsp/dsp_chapter3.pdf
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 4:02pm
| SW, I don't think you are bursting any bubbles of any of us that have little faith in the Train Station being the saving grace of Middletown, whether they use the old one or build a new one. |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 4:19pm
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The way I see it with the majority of participants here, Middletown is damned if they do; damned if they don't.
I can see why, with some past decisions such as Lake Middletown and City Centre Mart/Mall, why some would be leary of this venture.
Rail may not be the saving grace of Middletown, but the city simply can't let this train pass by (yes, pun intended).
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 4:39pm
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SW neither you nor the city have made a persuasive argument as to why anyone is going to come to Middletown by train. So your contention is Middletown will die if it doesn't get a train stop on the 3C Savior Express, sure gonna be a lot of dead cities between Cleveland and Cincy. If there was some compelling reason for people to travel by train to Middletown I could see it. But you and the city seem to think hundreds are going to flock to Middletown on a train that runs 2-3 times a day with 6-8 hrs to make a round trip. I am not getting it. |
Posted By: insider
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 5:20pm
| Everyone seems to be jumping to conclusions, why not wait until after the City Council meeting tomorrow night, gather all the facts and then comment? |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 5:25pm
| Insider this is moving ahead as emergency legislation tomorrow. It could be a done deal before tomorrows meeting is over. |
Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 5:58pm
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I'll be real curious if ANY sitting council member will even question this land deal. And since an emergency is being declared this sounds like something that council does not want the people knowing the facts of. In my opinion the only reason for declaring an emergency on legislation is to stop any opposition by the public. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 7:31pm
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I am wondering myself why the city is in need of all this land from Duncan Oil if the plan is not to build a new station? I am still waiting for someone to explain to me what a person riding a train that stops in Middletown is going to do once here?If the train brings monies to town then I am for it, but I cant see where it will. I feel like this is the old west is a train really that important in todays world? ------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Posted By: jag123
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 7:42pm
The city will spend $550,000 without any hope of payback on those funds? When the aiport expansion came up a couple of weeks ago, the $350,000 for the building will be paid back in 5 years? Is that correct? sounds like the airport is a better deal or am I missing something?
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Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 9:59pm
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Jag - your just in the same boat with the rest of us because ALL of us are missing something.
Randy - I'm with you, I just don't see the attraction for bringing all the gazillion tourist here. I just don't get it. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: wannaknow
Date Posted: Nov 30 2009 at 10:49pm
Well now, if the train stops between the hours of 8:30 AM and 3 PM the "tourists" could visit the well maintained Pioneer Cemetery or they could meander on down Central Ave. and see the colorful shops, maybe visit a gold exchange business. There are many interesting places to visit in Middletown. Ward 1 rocks!!!!!
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 5:08am
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This is part of the New Five Year Plan and the City will do this deal weather you like it or not. In my opinion this is a complete waste of Federal, State and Local Funds. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 6:16am
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Why do they need all the additional land??? I can’t believe you veteran observers of City Hall have to ask!!! It is NOT to build a “new” train station (although they will spend more than the cost of a new station to play the “restoration game” with the old one). You should know by now that our boys at City hall can’t have just a train station. The added acreage will be for all of the parks, and fountains and bandstands and water features and exotic vegetation and model canal boats and locks ‘n’ dams and rain forests and hanging gardens and an art gallery or two--OH, and we can’t forget at least FOUR “GATEWAYS” to the station--and other aggrandizements befitting a marvelous train station like ours!!! To paraphrase Mayor Shinn, “I’ll put our ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 6:27am
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By the way, I'm sure that the only way our all-powerful Grand Pisbah of Landmarks and Historic Junk will allow this to happen will be if he, himself, oversees all aspects of the project to ensure hysterical accuracy--for a small six-figure fee, of course!!\ ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 6:54am
Mike- now that's what I call "cosmopolitan" "gateway" thinking, mister!!!!!!  But- but- if they put new fountains, water features, parks, bandstands and other "gateway" things around the train station, pray tell, what will become of our Governors Square(center of town "gateway") and Ms. Mort's (not ours, mind you- MORT'S) "west gateway" Bicentennial Commons? Will they just be - oh no- dare I say it- an AFTERTHOUGHT- fall into disrepair and be another albatross like Lake Middletown/City Centre Mall were? (and anything else they've tried in the last 30 years) This whole topic is totally misfocused. Why are the leaders of this town hell-bent on this train scheme and not focused at all on roads, decent paying jobs, business retention and upgrading this town in basic essentials? This "train pipe dream" is going to be another white elephant to add to their pathetic round of ideas for the city. IT JUST DOESN"T MATTER AT THIS TIME! FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME, IT IS PAST TIME TO START FOCUSING ON THE BASIC ESSENTIALS FIRST AND LEAVE ALL THIS SURFACE FLUFF CRAP UNTIL AFTER THE BASICS ARE IN PLACE AND FUNCTIONING. What part of this statement, don't you city leaders understand? Once again, the city leaders are looking at their priorities through their posterior region.
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Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 7:01am
Mike - Gees now I'm depressed !  And you gotta quit using those big words, it's way to early in the morning for me to be looking for my dictionary. I have a hard enough time deciphering what Vet says.
I agree though why do they need all that land ? Perhaps a major size convience store ? Someone making some large pocket change out of this deal ? Stay tuned folks it will no doubt just get better !
See what you did Mike....you went and woke up Vet. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 9:46am
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Everyone needs to think back to the original city deal with Duncan Oil from a few years ago, when Duncan acquired the old Office Outfitter's site and the wrangling for the credit union, muffler shop and small Finkleman parcel that held up the negotiations.
Duncan had cash flow problems and was unable to follow through on that project. I know, because I was approached by both the city and Duncan to take over the proposed convenient store/service station outright or just to manage it. Since it would directly compete with another near-by business of mine, I declined. Duncan has tried to sell that land parcel ever since, and couldn't give it away.
Duncan is a good company and the local reps are good honest people, however Duncan primarily sells fuel and is not well-versed in operating retail entities.
We have a need for fuel in that area since Duncan shut the Shamrock station(creating this need!).
We hardly need another convenience store in the area, with the newer Rite Aid directly across the street(also offering a pharmacy), Mid-Town Drive-Thru one block directly east(offering fuel and convenience purchases), the small Casablance Market one block directly north, the New York convenient store one block directly west on Central, Dillman Foods three blocks east on Central, and D's Market approx 5 blocks south on Supthin. None of these businesses are operating at near capacity, with the area already over-exposed in this retail category. Are more fuel centers/convenience stores our top economic priority?
There is little to no residential in the new proposed area, nor any plan to expand residential.
The Duncan property on Manchester Ave. and Charles St. is an eyesore and of little value. It has been ovffered to everyone repeatly, and Duncan could hardly give it away. It will be interesting to see the city's purchase price or estimated value for this parcel.
Has ED contacted the other mentioned similar businesses to conduct any type of impact study, or to offer similar monetary assistance for improvements, land swaps etc? I ?ed ED about similar help with th K Mart center situation, the old S.University Target/Savealot center(which has been vacant outside of SAVEALOT for 25 years now) , and property acquisition nest to my Central Ave.location, and was pretty much informed that ED DOES NOT GET INVOLVED WITH RETAIL OPERATIONS.
Well--they are now sinking $500,000 to upwards of a $1,00,000+ of city money(from the Downtown Fund? How much $$ in in this fund?)into a sweetheart deal for Duncan at the expense of everyone else.
And all of this is to be presented once tonight, comments accepted, digested, and voted by EMERGENCY LEGISLATION? This is hardly an emergency and has been quietly in the planning for a long while(evidenced by the silent closing of Shamrock and the property negotiations with Duncan,Finkleman and the rec center/beauty shop corner). Why the big rush now?
Quite simply time for Council to do the right thing and slow down this whole process to get it right and to the benefit of the entire business community.
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Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 10:30am
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I drove downtown last night and had a look around the area to see just what the city was buying and just what Lets be honest here OK, People riding this train through ------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 2:06pm
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Spider I thought they had planned apartments where Denny’s & Divers are located….however who would want to live there with the noise from the trains and train horns and the noise and dirt from Cohen Bros?? All the new residential property will be on Why would the City pay for an impact study when this entire five year plan that they are rushing to pass tonight was put together as a class project by MUM. (And they MUST know what’s best for Please tell me again why we have a City Council and a City Planning Department???? |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 3:07pm
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It's all a done deal to be handled as an emergency.
Look for a 7-0 vote.
The fix is in.
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Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 5:54pm
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With the closing of Shamrock it is very hard for folks on the west side of the tracks to get gas. (unless of course they eat my super bowl chili)
Going down on Verity is not an option. If they close First Avenue at the tracks that is really going to be a major inconvience for the west siders. Or anybody that comes from the west to east side. Look for major accidents at Central & University. Plus no doubt a few cars being wiped out by trains.
Seems the city leaders are doing nothing but making life harder on people. When is the last time city leaders done something right ? ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: insider
Date Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 7:37am
| Hermes...when are you going to start thinking before you write? You have no clue what is going on! |
Posted By: insider
Date Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 7:40am
| Vivian Moon...since you seem obsessed with the Pioneer Cemetery why don't you take ownership of it and then you can do with it what you want. |
Posted By: insider
Date Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 7:42am
| spiderjohn...everyone knows you are the real "insider". |
Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 7:52am
LOL damn, Isider you having a bad morning.  ------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 7:57am
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Insider |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 8:57am
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Didn't feel like an "insider" at the Council meeting last night.
All the discussion over the city seriously over-paying for the Central Ave. property to demo, while the real issue(the Studio/Strand) stays for now. Credit to Mr.Marconi for airing the concern. Why should anyone maintain commercial property now, especially downtown, if the city will over-pay to acquire it?
Then the big $$$ Duncan swap goes off without a true first reading with community input, no discussion among Council, and a quick 7-0 vote. The fix was obviously in. Same as the Duncan deal a few years ago, until Duncan went cash poor and failed to fulfill their end of the deal. Anyone have an appraised value for the Office Outfitter's property? I have much better business property that I would gladly sell for appraised value or above.
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Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 11:10am
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For those that didn't watch last nights meeting, here is Mr. Robinette talkikng abouthe land swap with Duncan Oil
http://www.middletownusa.com/view_news.asp?a=4780 -
Middletown's Economic Development Director Disscuss Duncan Oil Land Deal ------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 11:13am
Insider - Here is your challenge for the day...fill me in on whats exactly going on. Tell us all whats going on. I get the feeling you know even less than me or anyone else on here. I think your just one of these little people who come on here trying to justify your very existence by running off at the mouth.
You got something to say then say it,if not move on. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
insider wrote:Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Dec 02 2009 at 11:26am
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That was my guess on another post that Duncan wanted to build a convience store in that block. Which I wouldn't oppose. How does Robinette figure those properties have about the same value ? And what is Duncans expectations for building a store in that location ? In a few years will it end up another abandoned building if it doesn't do well for it's size and location ? ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: wannaknow
Date Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 7:41am
| IMO the Office Outfitters location would have been a great place to relocate the post office. The current one doesn't have enough parking or drive thru space to drop off mail outside, |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 8:54am
| You may or may not know this, but back in the 80's, it was proposed to use the old Montgomery Ward building for the post office for the very same reasons- more parking- better location. Council, during Bill Donham's tenure, had discussed this, but it faded into obscurity as fast as it was mentioned. |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 1:52pm
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Honestly, City Council has very little control over what happens with the post office. The desicions come from the USPS and they say there are not available funds for a new post office. We can blame the city for many things, but the post office is really something beyond their control. ------------- |
Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Dec 06 2009 at 9:46pm
You are correct about that, I do believe they should look at something though, the USPS, the office were it is is a mess. ------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |