Question for Dillman
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown Community
Forum Name: Middletown News, Info and Happenings
Forum Description: Discuss any Middletown Ohio area news story.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2116
Printed Date: Nov 25 2024 at 6:56am
Topic: Question for Dillman
Posted By: justwatching
Subject: Question for Dillman
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 11:53am
|
I have to wonder why any store, especially Save-A-Lot, would post no gun signs. The concept of these signs absolutely baffles me. It's as if you think that a gunman is going to load his guns, make it his mission to kill the people in your store and then.... stop when he sees that sign. If anything, you have told the gunman, "Hey, come on in here, none of these good law abiding citizen's have guns, they're easy targets."
The only people who obey the no guns signs are the ones that could potentially save your life if a gunman were to enter your store. As a firm believer in concealed carry, I am always armed and I can guarantee you that you would be grateful if I were in your store one day when someone came in on a mission to kill your patrons and staff. So my question Dillman is... why the signs? Who do you think you are protecting? |
Replies:
Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 12:01pm
| Could not agree with you more. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 12:08pm
| Perhaps it is because of the new conceal/carry law. Perhaps Mr. Dillman doesn't want weapons brought into his store regardless of conceal/carry. He's probably telling the customers to leave their guns at home before entering his stores even though you have a right to legally carry them around. Just speculating. |
Posted By: justwatching
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 12:20pm
| Well obviously... but my point is, why? Why wouldn't you want an armed citizen in your store? What harm is it doing? If they are there to cause trouble, then that sign isn't going to stop them. |
Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 1:28pm
|
A wild guess here would be for insurance reasons. I would imagine that any and all business have a clause in their policy concerning weapons in states that have a conceal carry law.
But I agree with you justwatching,I'd feel better knowing someone other than the "shooter" had a gun also. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: justwatching
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 1:38pm
|
I don't believe the insurance clause is why, I have been involved in purchasing business insurance many times and never once has the subject of customers having firearms ever come up. Now, employees having firearms is another thing, and that usually does come up.
It's interesting actually, if you work for a place that doesn't allow you to carry a firearm, and you are wounded on the job by an assailant, your employer is responsible for not allowing you to protect yourself. |
Posted By: John Beagle
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 2:03pm
|
I believe it is because it is the law for any establishment selling beer and wine.
------------- http://www.johnbeagle.com/" rel="nofollow - John Beagle Middletown USA News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 2:12pm
|
Yea and Justwatching, if you decide to become the Wyatt Earp and pull your gun on a robber and shoot an Old Lady by mistake, the Business Owner, me, gets sued. New question for Employment App. Do you carry a gun and think you are Wyatt Earp or Annie Oakley. |
Posted By: justwatching
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 2:24pm
|
John, you're incorrect about the selling of beer and wine. The law only states you can carry an establishments DISPENSING beer or wine, like a bar or restaurant. It is perfectly legal to carry in grocery stores, gas stations, etc.
Pacman, I assume you mean if I were an employee and shot an innocent bystander? It may be true that you would get sued, but it is unlikely they would win. An employer is unlikely to be held responsible for the inept actions of an employee asking on his own will. Now if you, the business owner, ordered me to shoot the robber and I missed... well, that's another story. |
Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 2:33pm
|
Here is a good one for you...have you ever seen a sign stipulate WHO can or can not walk in carrying a weapon ? By that I mean police. I've never seen a sign that says "no weapons by citizens only police allowed". Maybe there are some somewhere.
Next time you see a cop going in somewhere that has a sign tell him he can't go in there with his weapon and to leave it in the car. Then tell him you don't support double standards in America. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 2:40pm
|
It doesn't matter if the bystander wins or not. Just being sued can be costly enough to a small business owner. Just the fact you come up with all of these scenarios would stop me from allowing employees to be gun totters.
What the heck brought this up anyways. Maybe Blackwater is still hiring for you guys.
 |
Posted By: justwatching
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 2:44pm
|
Actually signs do exclude law offers, etc. by referencing the "Ohio Revised Code" and saying something like "Unless other authorized by law". Here is an example sign:
http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/files/Publications/Publications-for-Law-Enforcement/Concealed-Carry-Publications/Model-Concealed-Carry-Sign.aspx - http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/files/Publications/Publications-for-Law-Enforcement/Concealed-Carry-Publications/Model-Concealed-Carry-Sign.aspx |
Posted By: justwatching
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 2:52pm
|
Wow, here I'd thought you were a logical man Pacman. Guess I was wrong. Any employer who doesn't allowed a licensed concealed carry permit holder to carry a firearm definitely does not have the best interests of his customers or employees in mind.
There is simply no logical reason not to allow it, sorry, the fear that one of them would accidentally "miss" a robber and hit a bystander is absurd. If it got to the point where the employee felt threatened enough that he needed to pull his firearm, he had better be close enough to shoot the robber. If he isn't close enough, then his life probably wasn't in danger and he shouldn't be pulling his gun anyways. All that aside, you probably shouldn't hire someone who you wouldn't trust to make a life or death decision anyways. But then again, that's just my opinion. Oh, this was brought up because I drove by Save-A-Lot last night and saw their no gun sign. I try to not patronize businesses with these signs as they are obviously closed mind nut robs, but I like Dillman, so I wanted to hear his logical reason for having the sign up. |
Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 2:58pm
Your right I have seen the code posted at the bottom of some signs,I stand corrected.
You can tell I don't get out much.  ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
justwatching wrote:Posted By: justwatching
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 3:00pm
| Or maybe I get out too much.... :-D |
Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 3:35pm
Justwatching, This the 21st century. Why would you need to carry a gun to a grocery store or any other establishment? I understand having one at home for protection. Geez, let me know where and when you go shopping and I will stay home
|
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 3:36pm
JustWatching the only person in my business that has a gun is ME. 
|
Posted By: justwatching
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 3:44pm
|
Smartman, you're not a smart man. It's not that I, or anyone else who carries, feels we need a gun at the local grocery store. It's the fact that you never know when you'll need it. Do you think the thousands of people who die in senseless killings every year went out thinking, "I bet someone is going to come into McDonalds while I'm there and shoot me." No, they didn't. You never think you'll need a gun, and you pray you never have to use it, but the fact of the matter is shootings are a daily occurrence in the country and they don't usually happen at homes or when people are prepared for them. They happen in the local grocery store parking lot, or at the dinner, or church, or one of any number of places we visit on a daily basis. This is where shootings. I shop at nearly every grocery store in town, usually stopping 2-3 times throughout the week to pick up various items, and you'll be damned glad I'm next to you when the store manager's ex-boyfriend comes in to blow her head off and you sh*t you pants while I protect you, myself, and anyone else lucky enough to be behind me.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,506820,00.html - http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,506820,00.html http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/jul/27/knoxville-church-shooting-leaves-several-injured/ - http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/jul/27/knoxville-church-shooting-leaves-several-injured/ http://www.arlingtonva.us/Departments/Police/news/printarticle.asp?ID=682 - http://www.arlingtonva.us/Departments/Police/news/printarticle.asp?ID=682 http://cbs2chicago.com/local/mall.shooting.tinley.2.644307.html - http://cbs2chicago.com/local/mall.shooting.tinley.2.644307.html |
Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 3:51pm
Justwatching, I am a smartman. I don't carry a gun and would not with the anticipation of ever using it! And NO I would not like being next to you if trouble was around. Based on your comments you are the hot head that would try to provoke someone into a fight. You need a reality check! ....Really
|
Posted By: justwatching
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 3:57pm
| "Based on your comments you are the hot head that would try to provoke someone into a fight"?? How on earth do you get that? I have actually never even been in a scuffle of any sorts shy of when I was 14 and got into a fight with a thief at school. In fact, I rarely even argue with anyone because it usually comes down them being so narrow and closed minded, like you, that arguing is futile and redundant. I just pray, for your sake and your family's sake, that you are never the victim of violent crime outside of your home, because apparently this is the only place you think bad things happen. |
Posted By: rngrmed
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 4:03pm
| JustWatching- Would you please find me some articles from this past week that a shooting happened every day? I'm not opposed to the concealed carry, but allowing everyone to carry a guy isn't going to stop people from robbing stores/banks, etc. Did it stop Jesse/Frank James? While you are finding articles about the daily shooting, please tell me how many people had their own weapon taken away from them and killed with it. Some of the people that have been through a concealed weapons class might be a damn good shot, really good a shooting a target. Shooting a person is completely different. If they were going to kill or rob you the shooter still has to leave with those consequences of killing someone. |
Posted By: justwatching
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 4:12pm
|
It's not about stopping the robbers, it's about protecting yourself and more importantly, in my opinion, your family. And it's not about a shooting happening every day, even though they do, it's about being prepared for that one time that it happens and you are there.
I agree, killing someone would be a hard thing to do, but in protecting my family or myself, I wouldn't bat an eye. Here are three shooting this week that I found in about 30 seconds, not including the 1000 I found of people shot at their home or on the street. These were shootings at businesses. Today: http://www.kyw1060.com/Camden-Co--Police-Investigate-Shooting-of-Bakery-O/5448132 - http://www.kyw1060.com/Camden-Co--Police-Investigate-Shooting-of-Bakery-O/5448132 Yesterday: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D9BB04JO2.html - http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D9BB04JO2.html This weekend: http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_13544367 - http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_13544367 |
Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 4:18pm
|
I'm narrow minded? At least I would not carry a gun into a public establishment, and I would not condem a business owner because he or she posted a sign. As a customer in a store I would be very uncomfortable if I new the person next to me was packing a firearm. My hat is off to Mr Dillman and all the other business folks that post that sign!
Look Wyatt, if you want to carry a gun, fine. Just leave it in the car when you go shopping!
|
Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 4:22pm
| It is strictly a Liability thing. |
Posted By: justwatching
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 4:23pm
| See... that's narrow minded, "at least I would not carry a gun into a public establishment"? What? That makes me narrow minded? Your logic is full of fallacies and I am done debating with you. Good day, and if I ever see you in need of rescuing, I'll be sure to save you even though to don't want me to. |
Posted By: justwatching
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 4:25pm
| Irisner, do you know that's why Dillman has it up or is that an assumption? I just have never heard of any insurance company requiring that sign posting or they will raise your rates, but who knows, maybe some do. |
Posted By: Iliveheretoo
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 4:28pm
|
Posted By: justwatching
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 4:32pm
|
Is that what the second amendment means? Mmmmmm.
|
Posted By: Iliveheretoo
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 4:52pm
| Great video, Maybe I will open a store and post a sign that says I encourage my customers to carry a concealed weapon and see how many times I get robbed ? |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 5:21pm
| Justwatching the problem with your logic in this discussion is that you are assuming that everyone that has a Concealed Weapons permit is logical and will do the right thing. I can tell you from experience that isn't so. So as far as I am concerned it is my business my rules. The person doesn't like my rules hit the road, plenty of people looking for jobs right now. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 5:36pm
|
WOW--I can speak for Mr.Dillman, who really didn't want to get into this until a few started going at it.
He was given those signs when he was on the Citizens' Advisory Board to the Police Dept., and the chief encouraged him and everyone else to post them for liability concerns. His insurance co. also recommended posting the signs to decrease his liability IF a shooting occured inside his businesses. The subject had not come up in a long time, and had never caused much controversy.
He stated that he really didn't want guns in his businesses, though he was not concerned with normal law-abiding citizens(whomever that might be) and had never asked or checked anyone as to whether they were carrying a weapon. He then told me about locking himself in an office with a drugged-up suicidal employee who was flashing a loaded weapon while on the job.
The signs are mainly a liability thing, and it is very hard to monitor this type of activity. One gun in the wrong hands is one gun too many. He told about being robbed a few times(armed), and really didn't think having another weapon in the hands of anyone else would have made things any better, and probably would have led to a death or multiple deaths. Does he REALLY want to take the chance on ANYONE or the WRONG person being shot(especially if the shooting occured because of the second weapon)? Customers get into it often, and it can escalate in very strange ways.
Obviously Mr.Dillman can't control what people conceal when they enter his businesses. Common sense, courtesy and safety are hardly a given any more. Allegedly there was a 3am shooting close to one of his locations recently. His name was published as often as the names of the shooter and victim.
He stated that he wasfollowing the advice of police, insurance people, and the overall wishes of his co-workers. Pulling out one gun in a business is dangerous enough. Add another weapon(or more) and it really doesn't become more safe in his opinion.
May not be the answer you want, and Mr.Dillman had somewhat mixed concerns.
|
Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 5:58pm
------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 6:44pm
Now I get it ! The "right to bare arms" they were talking about short sleeved shirts !! Gee,I should be on the Supreme Court ! Or at least a constitutional attorney. 
Anymore amendments or rights questions anyone need me to interpret ? I'll gladly do it for a small fee. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 7:03pm
|
Nice comments Spider. I guess I'm the narrow minded one in this fight. I just don't believe in carrying guns. I'm just trusting enough to believe in the system as Mr Dillman is. This is not the wild west where there are bad guys around every corner. So I guess I just don't get it. I run a large retail establishment, and firearms are the last thing we want. My employees are trained not to fight back!!! None of them carry guns.
Thought, what if justwatching were at a Middies B-Ball game or football game? I shutter to think what might happen if he or she were in an area where a problem was occurring.
JMO,,,,is this what Middletown has become?
|
Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 9:42pm
Very good question! |
Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 9:47pm
Well said! |
Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 10:07pm
|
Thankfully, Ohio is leading the way in regards to firearm freedom, (respecting our second amendment rights) Crime rates drop in CCW states, Ohio has also adopted the castle doctrine, thieves beware! http://www.governor.ohio.gov/Default.aspx?tabid=641 - http://www.governor.ohio.gov/Default.aspx?tabid=641 You can always carry openly, without a permit. You rarely see this though, if you did there's a good chance it would wrongly attract the attention of our local PD. |
Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Oct 16 2009 at 2:08pm
| Smartman I respect your opinion. You might feel a little differently if you were involved in an incident ( I hope you never are). With unemployment as high as it is right now - crime will increase. Mr Dillmans sign will not stop crime, however he has a right to post it, and I will honor his wishes for his establishment. There are more break ins at homes while the families are present - I will use any force I have to, to protect my family - and will not feel guilty. I feel confortable with guns as I was raised around them and shot them all my life - I would strongly sugget anyone that has one - get training, join sportsman club so you can target practice. They are not a toy. |
Posted By: adamwlewis
Date Posted: Oct 16 2009 at 2:45pm
|
Perfectly said Bobbie. They are not a toy at all, they are tool. And just like a table saw or any other tool, when used properly they are great, but improperly and it's a recipe for disaster. ------------- http://www.adamwlewis.com" rel="nofollow - Adam Lewis ' Blog |
Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Oct 16 2009 at 2:52pm
|
Good points Bobby, Mr. Lewis! |