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Do Unions Hurt Small Business

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Printed Date: Nov 22 2024 at 4:33am


Topic: Do Unions Hurt Small Business
Posted By: randy
Subject: Do Unions Hurt Small Business
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 11:21am

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On Tuesday September 1, 2009 I was driving home from work and noticed that some protesters were out front of Dillmans on Central Ave. I spoke with Mr. Dillman and he said that he had let one of the guys protesting go and he was upset by that. (understandable) I asked why he had let the employee go and he responded by saying he didnt want to get into that (again understandable). He did assure me that it was a legitimate reason. Here is my question for our readers. Do unions hurt small businesses? I live very close to Dillmans and shop there often. I know Mr. Dillman and he is a great guy. He has had a business in this town for a LONG time, I believe since the early 60's.

In a time when businesses are fighting to survive, is a union a smart idea or in the end will it cause your business to head the way of the auto industry ? You tell me?






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Replies:
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 11:44am
Unions Hurt America by driving up Costs, just look at the Auto Industry and the Public Safety Unions in Ohio.  Look at AK did Unions help them, nope....helped to kill a city.  The only people that make out with Unions is the leadersip and those that are basically slackers.Thumbs%20Down


Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 11:49am
On a personal note, I do not agree with unions and think that they hurt businesses and force layoffs and shut downs. I do agree with the right to protest though. 

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Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 11:59am
You guys have listened to Rush to often! Middletown would have never been the Great Middle Class City it was in the old days if not for Unions. The only people that Unions DON"T help are the Big money people. Even you Posters doing your Union Critiques are no doubt beneficiaries of union activity somewhere.

As to small business, do you see the Unions trying to organize Dillman's? No, and you won't. How can Unions hurt small Business when they rarely are involved in small Businesses?

You are just espousing what some Conservative Pundit told you to say about Unions. Get some Labor History Education before you spout off!

P.S. Rodger and Steve both are good guys, but I personally would never work for them. I have done business with them for a long time and have known many former Dillman's employees and state the former with good reason.

No offense, Mr Spider!


Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 12:14pm
As a former union member union's are double edged swords. Without union's wages would be so low the entire country would be living in poverty. On the other hand union's have ruined job's such as : teachers,police,fire and medical.
 
To answer the question,yes,union's can destroy small business.


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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!


Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 12:15pm
So Irisner your contention is that Union Leadership are not the true winners in Unions.....Come on.  The days of the Union being good for city's is over and they are huritng Ohio as far as Jobs go.


Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 12:17pm

Hermes plenty of states are "Right to Work" states and do just fine.  While Ohio and Michigan are in financial messes.



Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by wasteful wasteful wrote:

Hermes plenty of states are "Work at Will" states and do just fine.  While Ohio and Michigan are in financial messes.

 
 
wasteful,yes I agree Ohio is a right to work state,but as I stated union's are a two edged sword. They are good AND bad.
 
I don't understand what you mean by the financial mess ??


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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!


Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 12:31pm

/en/blog/big-labors-bankrupting-agenda-07012009 - Compulsory Unionism Bankrupting States: Workers Flee to Right to Work States for Jobs

Wed, 07/01/2009 - 12:15 — /en/user/anthony-riedel - Anthony Riedel

As the current economic downturn continues, many states across the nation are starting to find it increasingly difficult to stay afloat after having capitulated to the union bosses' extortionate demands.  Last week, the http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597150183556945.html - Wall Street Journal cited the http://www.nilrr.org/ - National Institute for Labor Relations Research (NILRR) -- an anti-compulsory unionism think tank that exposes the harm forced unionism inflicts on workers -- http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597150183556945.html - when discussing Big Labor's contribution toward the severe financial difficulties California, New York, and New Jersey are experiencing and the http://www.nilrr.org/node/88 - migration of workers leaving these forced-unionism states:

Powerful unions. Mr. Obama believes union power is a ticket to the middle class. The middle class is getting creamed in all three of these "progressive" states, where organized labor is king. The unionized share of the workforce is 20% in California, 19% in New Jersey and 27% in New York compared to 13% across the country. All three are non-right-to-work states, have super-minimum wage requirements and provide among the nation's most generous public-employee pensions.

Workers in these paradises are indeed uniting -- by leaving. New York ranks first, California second and New Jersey third in moving vans leaving the state. A study by the National Institute for Labor Relations Research found that over the past decade these and other high-union states (mostly in the Northeast) had one-third the job growth of states with low union penetration.

NILRR http://www.nilrr.org/node/89 - recently found an especially strong correlation between a state’s Right to Work status and its job growth, while employees in Right to Work states http://www.nilrr.org/node/85 - are benefiting from faster job growth and higher real purchasing power than their compulsory unionism counterparts.

Perhaps it's also worth revisiting a http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122515112102674263.html - Wall Street Journal article penned late last year by National Right to Work President /en/media/mam.php - Mark Mix , reminding us that a massive expansion in forced unionism power played a key role in making the Great Depression longer and deeper.



Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 12:34pm
Hermes Ohio is a "Forced-Unionism Stated".
 
http://www.nrtwc.org/states/oh.htm - http://www.nrtwc.org/states/oh.htm


Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 12:43pm
Theres no denying the roles that unions have played in those three states ! Early in the 20th century the mob ran most unions in NY. And I'm sure unions in California were controlled by some type of organized crime recruiting crop workers. Evolution is the key in those three states. Plus you have to look at the relationship of politicians to unions to really get a grasp on things.
 
Again,if you want to see the working conditions of the early 20th century then ban all union's or union activity. I will guarantee a return to these types of conditions if union activity is ceased.
 


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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!


Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by wasteful wasteful wrote:

Hermes Ohio is a "Forced-Unionism Stated".
 
http://www.nrtwc.org/states/oh.htm - http://www.nrtwc.org/states/oh.htm
 
 
 
Thanks for posting that wasteful. Apperantly Ohio has gone from a right to work to forced unionism since I was a member. I'll have to explore that a little deeper.


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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!


Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 12:52pm
"I will guarantee a return to these types of conditions if union activity is ceased."
 
About 22 States are "Right to Work States" I don't hear about sweat shops and early 20th Century conditions in any of them.  Why Not?
 
http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm - http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm


Posted By: ronls
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 1:00pm
I dont think a union will hurt a small business. It will protect the workers from the overzealous busness men to treat them unfairly. There is no rights in the workers place, and when they are let go they have no rights there as well. No matter what the reasoning the employer is always right, the worker is screwed. A procedure needs to be in place to help them, if not a union, but some representation


Posted By: ronls
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 1:12pm
Ouch It should be a black eye to the community for a small business to mistreat its workers. But there needs to be something in place to help the at will worker form the abuses of management and owners. Any suggestions. Because if you have no representation then all anyone has to do is say you're fired, and thus you have no recourse. That is the reasons for the protest and flyers are still being passed on this issue.


Posted By: ronls
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 1:36pm
Mr. Dillman may think he let the gentleman go for a valid reason, but on the same day he went to the sav alot on universty and discharged his sister, that made it personal!!!!
 
Mr. Dillman used a medical condition in that dismissal which is protected under the America disabilities act. this is also against the EEOC standard. So Mr. Dillman I hope these two people take as far as the supreme court.


Posted By: ronls
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 1:39pm
To Roger and Steve,
 
You may think you had a good reason for dismissing the gentlemen employee, but it's my understanding on that same day you went to another one of you locations and dismissed his sister to me that is being vindictive and that's what your known for!!!!!
 
I hope they ruin you!!!!


Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 1:45pm
ronls if Unions were to go into all small businesses there would be no small businesses left as they could not afford to operate and if they could they would have to raise their prices to the public so high that you would be complaining about that.


Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 1:54pm
I would suggest you use you time more wisely and stop picketing and get another job.  Unions would kill small businesses.


Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by wasteful wasteful wrote:

"I will guarantee a return to these types of conditions if union activity is ceased."
 
About 22 States are "Right to Work States" I don't hear about sweat shops and early 20th Century conditions in any of them.  Why Not?
 
http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm - http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm
 
 
wasteful you copied and pasted but you still didn't hear me.  LOL
 
I have worked for a few companies that thought it was 1920. (This was in the early 80's)
Pay wise and safety wise.


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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!


Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 2:42pm
ronls,for a business like Kroger yes a union is fine,but for someone like Dillman a union is a killer. I have worked for small family run business in my time and all a union does is guarantee discord among the owners and employees. Besides,unless your a manager or a professional meat cutter a job in a place like Dillman is not a career anyway. Employees  come and go all the time.

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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!


Posted By: John Beagle
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 2:43pm
If anyone thinks having Dillman's unionize will save them money I have some section 8 housing for sale.

I for the life of me don't understand why teachers need to unionize, heck they are already public employees, how much regulation do they need?

Back when child labor laws were being violated in this country, unions were good.
Why don't unions work harder at trying to unionize unfair workplaces throughout the world and leave America alone.


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Middletown USA

News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio.


Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 2:54pm
John it is the same for Public Safety.  I worked for Public Safety in a Right to Work State and had all of the protections of any other Civil Servant.  Got Raises each year some years better than others, Paid Health Care, Vacation, Sick Leave, Etc., Etc.  There is no reason for Police and Fire to be Unionized and if it is a strike you are worried about have them sign a contract to not strike.  They do fire them. 
 
 


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 3:07pm
I wouldn't imagine that small businesses would be a target for unions. The employee turnover is high due to the wages paid and benefits not being offered or non-existent. Some small businesses attract "revolving door " employees that want to make quick money for their next fix or bottle of booze. No worker, especially with a family, is going to stay for long and will want to move up and away from entry level, low wage jobs eventually. Low wage small business places probably won't attract a union because the union knows that the lower wages make union dues hard to pay.

As to the "right to work" subject- We lived in Tucson Arizona in 2004-2005. It was a right to work state. Two reasons why I couldn't find a decent paying job there. (decent paying defined as $15-$20/hour) Right to work meant a worker had a right not to pay union dues and still stay with the company. Problem was, there were no union companies in Tucson which meant there were no good paying jobs either. All non-union, service-oriented low paying "resort town" jobs. Having the Mexican low wage worker there didn't help either. Employers could choose them over a naturalized American and not pay the going rate that an American would work for. Worked in a plastics plant in QA. The only non-Mexican people on the night shift in that plant was the plant manager and I. We would both talk each night as we were the only ones that spoke English. I'm not a fan of "right to work" because of my experiences in Tucson. Keeps people poor. No stimulation to pay a livable wage.


Posted By: John Beagle
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 3:20pm
You know Vet, the good thing about America is you can move to a place where the employment is more suitable.

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Middletown USA

News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio.


Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 3:25pm
So Ron why were canned from Dillman's? 


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 3:28pm
And we did, John. It took us awhile, but we finally figured out that the pay and job choices were better back here than out there. The "Tucson Experiment" for us was a trial gone bad. We were so taken in by the mountains and a totally different landscape than here, that we were just fooled into thinking that "everything would be ok by moving out there" Turned out to be a nightmare.


Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 5:04pm
Wasteful...your cut and past just shows that you have no opinion of your own.

As to "Right to Work States"....well I'll just say that I had a similar discussion with a Toyota Employee and I assured him that his wages and Ben were at the level they were for the  purpose of keeping the Union OUT. If any of you don't understand that, I have a lot of Section 8s to sell YOU.

Anti-Unionism, at the level people like Wastegate and Pac-it-full display is very hurtful for the Nation as a whole. It is true there is corruption in Unions sometimes just as there is currently serious corruption in the Butler County GOP. That kind of thing is a Human quality that we will never be fully purge from Life.

Capitalism and the Free Market are indeed the best System tried yet by man, but it is only successful for the masses when it is regulated somewhat. Unions are part of that regulation.


In a completely unregulated Capitalistic System with totally Free Markets, not one person on this Board would be anything but a Slave.






Posted By: John Beagle
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 5:07pm
VietVet

Sounds like your nighmare adventure had some good points too.

1. You got to enjoy the beauty of America
2. You got perspective on jobs
3. You can back here to make a better life




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Middletown USA

News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio.


Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 5:19pm
Irisner what the hell are you and Hermes talking about I cut and pasted his comment and then made my own comment after doing some research on the net and finding out how many states were actually "Right to work", rather than spouting off like Hermes that Ohio is a "Rght to Work" State which it isn't.  And then I pasted a link to my source....so what.  I think my opinion of Unions is quite clear from above.
 
I don't need to be long winded like you Irisner. 


Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 5:20pm
Wastefull don't let Irisner get under your skin he can't stand it when someone is right.LOL


Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 5:35pm
Irisner this is for you, oh my God a cut and paste:
 
June 19, 2009

A Move to Put the Union Label on Solar Power Plants

By TODD WOODY

SACRAMENTO — When a company called Ausra filed plans for a big http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/science/topics/solar_energy/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier - solar power plant in California, it was deluged with demands from a union group that it study the effect on creatures like the short-nosed kangaroo rat and the ferruginous hawk.

By contrast, when a competitor, BrightSource Energy, filed plans for an even bigger solar plant that would affect the imperiled desert tortoise, the same union group, California Unions for Reliable Energy, raised no complaint. Instead, it urged regulators to approve the project as quickly as possible.

One big difference between the projects? Ausra had rejected demands that it use only union workers to build its solar farm, while BrightSource pledged to hire labor-friendly contractors.

As California moves to license dozens of huge solar power plants to meet the state’s renewable energy goals, some developers contend they are being pressured to sign agreements pledging to use union labor. If they refuse, they say, they can count on the union group to demand costly environmental studies and deliver hostile testimony at public hearings.

If they commit at the outset to use union labor, they say, the environmental objections never materialize.

“This does stress the limits of credibility to some extent,” a California energy commissioner, Jeffrey Byron, said at one contentious hearing, “when an attorney representing a labor union is so focused on the potential impact of a solar power plant on birds.”

Union leaders acknowledge that they make aggressive use of the environmental laws, but say they do it out of genuine concern for the sustainability of California’s power industry, not just as a negotiating tactic. And they contend they do not abandon valid environmental objections to a project just because a company signs a labor agreement.

“We’ve been tarred and feathered more than once on this issue,” said Marc Joseph, a lawyer for California Unions for Reliable Energy. “We don’t walk away from environmental issues.”

At proposed fossil-fuel power plants, the union group has long been accused of exploiting environmental laws to force companies into signing labor agreements. The tactic is a subject of perennial discussion in the California legislature, which has considered, but never passed, bills to strip labor of its right to participate in environmental assessments.

What is new is that California Unions for Reliable Energy, a coalition of construction unions, appears to be applying this approach to new-age renewable energy projects, especially solar power plants, which are being fast-tracked to help meet the state’s green power target.

Lawyers for the union both negotiate labor agreements with solar developers and participate in the environmental review of the projects.

California Unions for Reliable Energy insists it is pursuing the long-term interests of its members. If energy projects are held to high environmental standards, the group says, more of them will ultimately get built, and that will mean more union jobs.

Nationwide, as billions of dollars in public and private investment flow to renewable energy projects, the environmental and labor battles being fought in California could prove to be the opening skirmishes of a larger fight over the emerging green economy.

Should Rust Belt factories converted to making solar components and http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/w/wind_power/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier - wind turbines be union shops, gateways to the middle-class for a new generation of workers in the green economy? Or will the green economy look more like the service economy, with low-paid employees installing rooftop solar panels and retrofitting buildings?

For the labor movement, green jobs represent an opportunity to regain relevance after years of declining membership.

“Unions are trying to get a foothold in solar, wind and other new green occupations,” said Philip Mattera, research director for Good Jobs First, a labor-oriented research group in Washington.

“We’re at a turning point that will have an impact on the future of the whole economy, and a lot of unions are gearing up.”

But skeptics fear that union control of renewable energy projects will saddle the nascent industry with high costs and undermine its competitiveness.

“These environmental challenges are the unions’ major tactic to maintain their share of industrial construction — we call it greenmail,” said Kevin Dayton, state government affairs director for the Associated Builders and Contractors of California. “The future of solar energy is jeopardized by these unions holding up construction.”

In California, project labor agreements can raise costs on a project by about 20 percent, Mr. Dayton estimated.

The fights of the moment center on solar farms proposed for tens of thousands of acres of desert and agricultural land.

When the utility giant the FPL Group ignored entreaties from California Unions for Reliable Energy to use union labor on a planned 250-megawatt solar farm, it was hit with 144 data requests, demanding details on things like “the engine brand, model, and horsepower rating” of a water pump engine, “the number of man-hours devoted to focused tortoise surveys, by location” and “the role of each individual that participated.”

In filings with the California Energy Commission, Ausra has accused the union group of abusing environmental laws in a bid to extract a labor agreement. FPL’s lawyers accused the group of trying to stall the company’s solar project.

Bob Balgenorth, chairman of the labor group, makes no apologies for pushing hard for union jobs from solar developers while scrutinizing the environmental impact of the projects. “You only have so much land that can accept solar power plants,” said Mr. Balgenorth, who has cultivated strong ties with conservation groups.

“So the question is, should that land be used for low-paid jobs or should that land be used for high-paid jobs?”

Some solar developers say that signing a labor agreement is simply an unavoidable cost of doing business.

“Let’s just say that it is clear to us from experience that if we do not enter into a project labor agreement, the costs and schedule of the project is interminable,” said Douglas Wert, chief executive of Spinnaker Energy, a San Diego company hired to build two solar farms for Portuguese developer Martifer.

After Stirling Energy Systems filed plans with California regulators to install 30,000 solar dishes on 10 square miles of desert land, its executives got a call from Mr. Joseph, the union lawyer. Sean Gallagher, a vice president for Tessera Solar, the development arm for Stirling, said the company declined Mr. Joseph’s request to commit to using union labor.

California Unions for Reliable Energy subsequently filed 143 data requests with the company on the final day such requests could be made, and later intervened in a second, 850-megawatt Stirling solar project.

It was a different story after BrightSource Energy pledged to hire union-friendly contractors to build its Mojave Desert solar power plant complex. Despite questions raised by environmental groups about the project’s impact on wildlife, the union group took no action, according to commission documents.

Mr. Joseph said that the labor group wants to mediate between environmentalists and BrightSource, which is based in Oakland, Calif.

“We’re actually hoping that we can help resolve these issues in a way that allows that project to go forward and gives maximum protection to the desert tortoise,” he said.

He said he sees “absolutely no conflict of interest” in seeking labor agreements from solar developers while challenging the environmental effect of the projects. “It is in the interest of construction workers to have good middle class jobs — and to have conventional and renewable power plants that are sustainable,” Mr. Joseph said.

The union group’s strategy drew plaudits from environmentalists when the group was winning agreements from developers to cut pollution from fossil fuel power plants. But as some conservation groups ally themselves with business interests to push for a rapid rollout of renewable energy, strains are showing in the so-called blue-green alliance.

Some environmental groups are worried that the labor tactics will delay green energy projects and cause a backlash, but they are reluctant to go public with criticisms of the labor movement.

Others, like the http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/natural_resources_defense_council/index.html?inline=nyt-org - Natural Resources Defense Council , are trying to steer clear of the controversy.

The council “hasn’t taken a position on whether union labor should or shouldn’t be used in these projects,” said Sheryl Carter, the group’s co-director of energy programs.

And still others defend the labor group’s role.

Carl Zichella, the http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/s/sierra_club/index.html?inline=nyt-org - Sierra Club ’s director of western renewable programs, said California Unions for Reliable Energy had been effective at extracting concessions that aid the environment.

“It’s not a warm fuzzy thing they are doing; it’s a very self-interested thing they’re doing,” he said. “But it has a large ancillary public benefit.”

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: June 20, 2009
Because of an editing error, an article on Friday about union efforts to gain a foothold in green energy projects misstated the title of Jeffrey Byron, who questioned union motives in objecting to some projects on environmental grounds. He is one of five members of the California Energy Commission; he is not “the California energy commissioner.”



Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by wasteful wasteful wrote:

Irisner what the hell are you and Hermes talking about I cut and pasted his comment and then made my own comment after doing some research on the net and finding out how many states were actually "Right to work", rather than spouting off like Hermes that Ohio is a "Rght to Work" State which it isn't.  And then I pasted a link to my source....so what.  I think my opinion of Unions is quite clear from above.
 
I don't need to be long winded like you Irisner. 
 
 
wasteful calm down,what I meant was my point was exactly what you copied and pasted from my post. And I was wrong about Ohio still being a right to work state and I think I even thanked you for the correction. I even said I would look deeper into that because it use to be a right to work state. I have been retired so long I didn't know it was no longer the same.
 
So don't get excited none of us are right all the time,just part of the time. LOL


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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!


Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Sep 03 2009 at 10:23pm
Give me a break! The Pac mouth strikes again!

Self delusion has no room for anything but what it whats and believes!....Sounds like Pac Man to me!


Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Sep 04 2009 at 6:59am

Small business is the backbone of our Nation’s wealth. It is small business that creates the majority of the new jobs in this country and yes many are minimum wage. If all small businesses had to open under union rule I doubt that any would ever open their doors.
  It is sad to read the old newspapers where Mr. Sorg’s tobacco factory employed 14 year old children. If you got killed while working in the new steel and paper mills, little help was given to the families. Unions have had their place in our history and did many good things to protect the workers to give them safer working conditions…however I’m not sure they are now looking out for the best interest of the workers. jmo 



Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Sep 04 2009 at 7:16am
Lighten up Irisner, everyone's entitled to a different opinion even you.  I don't know why you bother to read some as all it does is raise your blood pressure, then you go off half cocked because everyone doesn't fall in line and salute you.  Here ya go Irisner my salute to you. and.......Oh my God...a cut and paste salute. LOL
 


Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Sep 04 2009 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by Pacman Pacman wrote:

Lighten up Irisner, everyone's entitled to a different opinion even you.  I don't know why you bother to read some as all it does is raise your blood pressure, then you go off half cocked because everyone doesn't fall in line and salute you.  Here ya go Irisner my salute to you. and.......Oh my God...a cut and paste salute. LOL
 

My BP doesn't get up, YOUR'S does every time someone tries to defend the Working Class.

 


Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Sep 11 2009 at 7:15am
Irisner I am the working class.........Big%20smile



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