Highlands HIstoric District
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: Community Revitalization
Forum Description: Middletown Community Revitalization News
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1790
Printed Date: Nov 22 2024 at 5:40am
Topic: Highlands HIstoric District
Posted By: THE WEAVER
Subject: Highlands HIstoric District
Date Posted: Aug 20 2009 at 8:17am
Should Jeff Michel be nominated for Middletowns next elected Mayor?. He has beeen here 3 and 1/2 years and seems to have a lot going for him! 1. To do away with the Ward system. Now he is pushing Highlands Historic District, which will qualify them for HUD and CDBG Funds, and suggest a Lake be built upon the Hill to hekp Beautify the Landmark Area.
------------- THE WEAVER
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Replies:
Posted By: Kelly
Date Posted: Aug 20 2009 at 8:48am
Funny stuff Weaver! Give Jeffy time - he'll toot his own horn on this subject high from that 400K+ home he's living in. Jeffy is doing it for the people! The man on the street! Yes, the man on Florence Street. Let the people decide! Jeffy's patriotic! We like that! Jeffy's tells it like it is! We like that! Jeffy's invited to "chat" on middletownusa...oh...Jeffy doesn't like that...too many on musa don't like the good ol boys, right Virtus??...It's scary in there without a cover!!!
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Posted By: Nelson Self
Date Posted: Aug 20 2009 at 5:20pm
I agree with 'The Weaver.' Why not revitalize the former Middletown Regional Hospital property with mixed-income rental housing. Utilize architecturally compatible designs so that the NIMBY residents of the Highlands Historic District will not object to this new construction. What do you think about that Sammie??
If lower-income rental housing is good for other areas of Middletown, it is also good for the S. Main Street and Highlands Historic districts too! Maybe those of you having close personal contact with senior City of Middletown staff can get an allocation of HUD Neighborhood Stabilization Program (NSP) funds for this purpose??
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 21 2009 at 3:28am
EXACTLY what is it that this "new" historic distric has, that nearly EVERY OTHER neighborhood in Middletown does not have???
They've already allowed the TRULY HISTORIC original wing of the hospital to be demolished without a peep!!! THAT was the MOST HISTORIC thing around there!
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 21 2009 at 6:36am
I just love it when all these people talk about saving historic buildings (their own) and the history of Middletown when they can’t even save the cemetery that was established in 1827.
How was Sam Ashworth able to vote on this since he lives in this district?
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Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Aug 21 2009 at 7:47am
Personally I do not see it as a historical district at all. Does anyone know of any historical events or reasons that it should be classified Historical District.
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Posted By: Nelson Self
Date Posted: Aug 21 2009 at 7:48am
Miss Vivian -
You are being punished by senior City of Middletown staff for failing to defer to these almighty bureaucrats. You rightfully informed us about the Historic Pioneer Cemetery and they are incensed because you uttered even one word in this respect.
You failed to pull out your prayer rug six times daily to get on your knees and pray in the direction of One Donham Plaza.
May the revenge of Middletown's pioneers be similar to that of the deceased in the movie 'Poltergeist.' Watch out elitists!
Save the Historic Pioneer Cemetery and vote down further wasteful practices like paving selected alleyways, wasting thousand of additional dollars on the 'Dollar Homes'. building bike paths for a handful of enthusiasts, buying playground equipment for unspecified locations and purposes, hiring more Community Revitalization Department staff and (UNOFFICIALLY) transferring employees there from other duties, etc., etc.
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Posted By: Nelson Self
Date Posted: Aug 21 2009 at 7:56am
Mr. Armbruster -
I'm told that the Historic Pioneer Cemetery is situated in Ward 1. If that be true, why is it that you fail to say anything relevant (or say anything at all) about the Historic Pioneer Cemetery?? You have had opportunities to put a halt to the One Donham Plaza pork that eminates from this rendering plant that the bureaucrats occupy!!
Gary Barge -
Congratulations once again. I sincerely request that you ask questions of Mr. Armbruster regarding this and other matters that he's been involved with as the current City Councilman!!
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 21 2009 at 4:22pm
CHAPTER 1210: HISTORIC PRESERVATION
1210.01 POLICY AND PURPOSE.
The City hereby declares as a matter of public policy that the preservation, protection, perpetuation and use of areas, places, structures, works of art or similar objects having a special historical or aesthetic interest or value are a public necessity and are required in the interest of the health, prosperity, safety and welfare of the people. (Webster Dictionary – necessity – 1. the state or fact of being inevitable or necessary. 2. something essential, esp. to existence. 3. poverty; great need. 4. compulsion.) The purpose of this chapter is to:
(a) Preserve and protect the heritage of the City by delineating structures, sites and areas that reflect the City’s cultural, social, economic and architectural history;
(b) Stabilize and improve property values;
(c) Protect and enhance the City’s attractions to residents, tourists and visitors, and to encourage business and industry;
(d) Foster civic pride in the beauty and notable accomplishments of the past;
(e) Strengthen the economy of the City;
(f) Protect and enhance the visual and aesthetic character, diversity and interest in the City;
(g) Promote the use and preservation of historic sites and structures for the education and general welfare of the residents of the City;
(h) Safeguard the property rights of the owners whose property is declared to be an historic site or is located in an area designated as an historic district;
(i) Develop appropriate settings for designated historic sites or historic districts; and
(j) Establish a Council on Landmarks and Historic Districts.
(Ord. O91‑19, passed 3‑5‑1991)
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Posted By: Merrell Wood
Date Posted: Aug 21 2009 at 8:23pm
So Vivian, So in your opinion, what clause in the A to J requirements for historical preservation are credible vs. not?
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Aug 21 2009 at 9:52pm
Bobbie - Here are just a few:
A lot of homes in this new district were owned by some of Middletown’s most prominent industrial and business leaders—at the local, state and national level.
For example:
7 Alameda Circle was built around 1915 by Charles R Hook, who was Chairman of ARMCO. Hook was married to the daughter of ARMCO’s founder, George M. Verity.
In addition to his career at ARMCO, Hook was also instrumental in helping to establish Junior Achievement as a national organization. Indeed, the national organization has an annual award named after him-it is actually the organization’s highest honor. This was taken from a press release:
The Hook Award is named after Charles R. Hook, an industrialist who served as president and chairman of Junior Achievement during the 1940s and 1950s. Under Hook’s leadership, Junior Achievement grew from a regional program in the northeastern U.S. into a national organization.
Hook also served as president of the National Association of Manufacturers, chairman of National Bible Association, trustee of America’s Future, Inc. and on the Board of Directors of several companies
Finally, Hook as been named on the 20th Century’s Great American Business Leaders by the Harvard Business School.
http://www.hbs.edu/leadership/database/leaders/charles_r_hook.html
You can read more about Charles R Hook. His biography is titled “The Human Touch in Business.”
Another ARMCO Chairman, Logan T. Johnson, lived on McGee. Jeff Michel’s home on Florence belonged to yet another ARMCO official, Middletown native W. W. Sebald, who served as President and Vice Chairman.
The Aull/Driscoll families owned several homes in the districts as well. The Aull/Driscolls were loosely connected to the Sorg family. Grace Aull was married to Paul A. Sorg, son of Paul J. Sorg. He died at a young age, and the couple did not have any children. Grace inherited the Sorg Paper Company, and the Aull side of her family (later Driscolls) would run and control the Sorg Paper Company before it was sold to a national company.
Yet another home was owned by Ames Gardner who was part of the Gardner family, who owned a major paper concern in Middletown.
The homeowners are working hard to collect their individual stories. These are just the few that I know. I fully support their efforts to preserve this part of Middletown’s history.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 3:30am
There is a CONDO on Riverview that was owned by George M. Verity, whose achievements equaled those of Mr. Hook and the others mentioned by SWohio75. Mr. Verity also served as Secretary of Commerce. Can we make a large area around Riverview an "Historic District"???
Jerry Lucas's boyhood home was in the 2200 block of Grand Avenue. Perhaps that should be a "Historic District"???
One could go on and on!!!
The question still remains about why the ORIGINAL wing of Middletown Hospital, without a doubt the MOST historic structure in Mr. Michel's area, was allowed to be demolished before the "historic religion" began to be preached.
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 6:09am
Mike
The answer to your question is:Mr. Kohler and Sam Ashworth decide what is historic and worthy to be saved in this town.If it is "historic" and located downtown it is worthy to be saved and millions of dollars can be spent...if it is located on First Ave it is just an old cemetery with an old shed that needs to torn down..Hmmmm
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 6:49am
Merrell As I said above…Mr. Kohler and Sam Ashworth decide what is historic in Middletown. I must admit that I was a bit surprised that so many homeowners in this area were willing for their property to be included in a “Historic District”. While this distinction does add a certain value to the property it also adds huge restriction to what can be modified on the inside and outside of the structure. It is because of these costly restrictions that most home owners do not want their homes declared historic. Any and all changes to these properties MUST go before the historic review committee for approval. I guess we will need to wait and see if Mr. Kohler enforces all the historic rules and regulation to these properties or turns a blind eye. However the “Historic District” label does allow these homeowners to apply for tax credits, grants and low interest loans. I believe that the homeowners wanted to declare these houses historic so they could control what would be built on the old hospital property and therefore protect their property value and neighborhood.
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Posted By: accuro
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 9:17am
There are remedies to the points raised above. Firstly, Ms. Moon, I applaud your efforts and impetus to protect historic interests. I do however feel after reading the city ordinance, I'm sure it supports a plausible argument the landmark at the cemetary has been determined or so named as historically significant. I'm sure the O.R.C. does a better job no?
As for the Highlands district, it obviously is an overly zealous effort by Mr. Kohler to protect the interests of the docs, and others around that area and if they can secure low interst grants, loans, that's not going to sit well with others who also have nice homes. I know of at least one new construction near Dan Ward in that area. The biger question is why did only 3 show up to support it, and no one that had objection did? Were there no notifcations? I want my Williamsburg replication cul de sac to be named "Antrim Estates District" in honor of the road taking golfers to St. Andrews as Mr. Kohler seems partial to Scottish landmarks. Or, perhaps it could be called the Downing District. For those in opposition, it could easily be brought down by council.
If I read the ordidance correctly, I assume the vault has not been named a landamrk. Then, the question becomes, how does it become a landmark. Do you need signatures or a motion by counil. Once you establish that, then its a landamrk of significance. Would that not be an easier route to take? At this juncture, I doubt if you'd have the votes to have it named a landmark on council.
------------- An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out. - Will Rogers
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 10:11am
Well accuro--it seems that we are neighbors.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 11:04am
Kohler decides too much in this town. That's part of the reason why it's in the condition it's in. With Kohler (and Mulligan) living in a designated historic district themselves, isn't it a conflict of interest for him to determine which areas of Middletown are historic? Should he be involved with making decisions with respect to historic areas especially when it involves money allocations to these areas as with South Main St.??? He benefitted by living in the South Main area by receiving money for his property didn't he? Did he have a hand in this decision and, if so, is this ethical? Are there credentials that one must have to determine what is historic or not or does the city just "deem" someone able to determine historic criteria? What are Kohler/Ashworth's credentials that make them the "historic area designators"? Are there legal guidelines to determine who is qualified and, if so, are they being followed in this city? If not, is there any legal recourse? If Kohler and Ashworth are making decisions that involve the use of taxpayer money- be it local, state or federal money- shouldn't the public be allowed to challenge those decisions? Where is the balance to all of this?
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 11:04am
Accuro
My current problem with the City is because Mr. Kohler said if I would get the Middletown Cemetery declared historic I would be given CDBG funds to restore the vault. In 2006 the City Council declared the cemetery historic and Mr. Kohler did not submit the paperwork for CDBG funds to restore the vault. Yet these are the same funds that have been used to restore many buildings in the downtown area and the historic district. Now I'm told by the City that even though the vault has been declared historic and a local landmark this offers NO protection what so ever...so now the City wants the vault torn down. Since the Middletown Cemetery is the most historic 11 acre in Middletown and owned by the City why wouldn't the City want to save it? Why is the downtown more important even though it has less historic value? You will also notice that the Middletown Historic Society has NOT spoken out on this issue. The Highland District has went before the Council of Landmarks and Historic Districts....however it still needs to go before the City Council to be voted upon before it becomes a "Historic District".
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 11:27am
Here is the link to HUD Historic Preservation information. It's a reeealy great read http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpd/environment/library/subjects/preservation/index.cfm - http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpd/environment/library/subjects/preservation/index.cfm
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 11:38am
The City's idea and your idea of taking care of the Cemetery is obviously two different things. If the City decides to tear down the Vault and then maintain the Cemetery in a well kept fashion, I don't see where you would have much of an argument left against the City.
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 12:18pm
Ahh Wasteful Now we are to the meat of the problem…If the City had been taking care of the cemetery the Vault would not need to be restored...If the City had been taking care of the cemetery it would not have become an unsightly weed field littered with broken stones and I wouldn’t have spent the last 5 years and a bunch of money cleaning the mess up….If your family was buried in this cemetery it would really matter to you.
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 12:36pm
Vivian it has absolutely nothing to do where my family is buried. I will agree with you If, If and more if's.....but that does not change the facts that the City didn't. If the city starts to take care of the cemetery now and I agree they should have all along, this matter is pretty much closed. If the City decides to tear down the vault it is their property. Maybe a nice seating area with Park benches and flowers or trees can be put in that spot, with the Middletown Community Foundation money if it is still available. I know you have put a lot of time, money and energy into this project, but why spend your remaining days fighting the city over it when a compromise could be reached and maybe a place to sit and think about the wonderful people who are laid to rest there.
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Posted By: accuro
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 2:15pm
sj, point well made. The floodgates will open. I recall my home was built by a gentleman who's family had four generations of read admirals that went back to the McCain family, hence, my home and neighborhood must therefore be historic. I've given this more thought. I like the name of Monticello District in honor of the builder of the houses in my neighborhood from Virginia. How is "historic" defined? Is it by age? Mine's 50 years old, so what's the cut-off. And what about the modern homes built in Highland Park? Are just victorian homes deemed historic? Or should the Frank Lloyd Wright look house designed by the Tasmanain Architectural group out of Scottsdale be deemed historic. Well, I have my neighborhood earmarked. I know Currier & Thornhill will want theirs branded. And of course, DaVinci will want theirs marked historic, especially with the age of the oak trees.
------------- An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out. - Will Rogers
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 2:22pm
Streets/infrastructure
Storm/waste sewers
cemetary
the former downtown
Section 8/HUD/CDBG
Economic Development
Business retention
STEP UP ON ELECTION DAY!!
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Posted By: 2000+
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 2:22pm
This may be said another post; if so, I missed it - for those of you who wanted the old hospital's little brick wall torn down (corner of Florence and Sherman), the reason it is staying up is because that is the wall where the Highlands Historic District plaquard will be displayed...just rumor at this point...
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 3:43pm
Spiderjohn Major changes will be taking place over the next few months and I will miss your wisdom. I hope you will join us again after the election to discuss our new City Council.
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 24 2009 at 6:53pm
Do you think all of these houses belong in a historic district?
PROPOSED HIGHLANDS HISTORIC DISTRICT Decade homes were built......Number of homes constructed 1890s………………………………………………………..2 1900s…………………………………………………………3 1910s……………………………………………………….13 1920s………………………………………………………17 1930s………………………………………………………..4 1940s………………………………………………………..5 1950s………………………………………………………14 1960s………………………………………………………..0 1970s………………………………………………………..6 1980s………………………………………………………..1 1990s………………………………………………………..0 2000s………………………………………………………..1 TOTAL 66 Homes
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Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Aug 24 2009 at 9:19pm
Vivian Moon wrote:
Do you think all of these houses belong in a historic district?
PROPOSED HIGHLANDS HISTORIC DISTRICT Decade homes were built......Number of homes constructed 1890s………………………………………………………..2 1900s…………………………………………………………3 1910s……………………………………………………….13 1920s………………………………………………………17 1930s………………………………………………………..4 1940s………………………………………………………..5 1950s………………………………………………………14 1960s………………………………………………………..0 1970s………………………………………………………..6 1980s………………………………………………………..1 1990s………………………………………………………..0 2000s………………………………………………………..1 TOTAL 66 Homes |
I'm not arguing for or against this idea, although I would like to add: America's best homes were built in the 1920's.
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 6:27am
"One of the benefits of a historic district is that owners of homes will not have to apply individually to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places and incur the expense associated with this process."
Very few of the 66 homes in this proposed historic district could be listed on the National Register of Historic Places. So why are all these home owners wanting to be part of a historic district? Why is this historic area so large?
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 6:45am
Wasteful
Now and then you need to stand up and fight for what you really believe in. Now and then the City needs to just do the right thing for the citizens of this city. The vault is the focal point the very heart of this cemetery. This is the most historic and intact area in the City. Hundreds of people from all over the US visit this cemetery every year. They need to show some respect for the founders and veterans of this City and restore the vault and maintain the cemetery. The schools needs to use this cemetery as a teaching tool of local history. And we wonder why our children know nothing about US history..
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 7:10am
Good questions Vivian- IMO, SOME of the homes in the old hospital area are certainly worth attention and are LOCALLY historic- ie the Hook mansion on The Alameda. I certainly wouldn't call a former Armco VP's home historic in that area. A founding industrialist like Sorg- certainly historic. Can the whole area be designated historic even though the history on some of the homes have no historical significance? Are there South Main St. area homes that have no historical value, yet the whole area is deemed "historic"? Isn't it more logical to take the homes on an individual basis within a given area? JMO What is the terminology/criteria that defines/qualifies a home/area for this? Do ALL of these "old hospital area homes" meet this criteria?
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 7:19am
Vivian I am not disagreeing with the fact that the City needs to step up and maintain the Cemetery. I am just saying rather than drag this out, a little compromise might go a long way. I don't see a lot of residents getting excited over whether the Vault is there or whether you take the money you can get and build a nice garden or seating area on the spot.
Schools don't even want to teacher U.S. History anymore I don't see them taking the time to delve into local history, when most kids don't even originate from Middletown to start off with.
I know I lived in many different cities as a kid and would have had no interest in learning about the History of each City I lived in. Maybe your expectations on some of these issues are to high.
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 7:49am
Vet I’m having a real problem understand this…. I have worked on and in many residential historic districts in the tri-state area and I have NEVER seen an age difference like this. All the residential historic districts that I have worked in are homes built no later than about 1900. I could understand this better if it was just a few blocks however this is a huge area to be declared historic. And then we have the homeowners of these newer homes. Do they really want all these restrictions placed on their homes? Will all these restriction on these newer homes devalue and make it more difficult for them to sell their properties later? Do they really understand that once their home is declared historic that they can’t put on a new roof or outside light fixture without the permission of Mr. Ashworth & Mr. Kohler? Did ALL 66 residents sign a petition to be included in this proposed district? Something about this is just not sitting right with my three little gray cells. More research is needed.
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 12:26pm
Wasteful
I have always had a love of history and old buildings. Many people in Middletown do not want the vault torn down. Every city around us is restoring their cemeteries...why not Middletown? On September 24, 2009 at 10 am I will put my case before the State of Ohio and they can decide what needs to happen next with the cemetery. If they tear down the Vault do you really believe they will take better care of the cemetery? Do you really believe they will plant flowers and paint the park benches? I don't think so......
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Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 12:35pm
I agree with Vivian. A lot of people when they buy an old home like to restore it back to the original features to a degree. They also want the extras that are available now on homes. But homes that were built in the 50's or later - probably want to be able to upgrade their homes (especially homes in the 70's).
Wastful - sometimes it is just about doing what is right. I don't expect a school to teach students about local history - however families do pass this information down to their children. It is not right for the city to make everyone keep up their properties and not their own. The vault is not a new issue that they just realized - it is something they have known about for along time that they put on the back burner. The vault has more history then some of the houses that they are wanting to designate historical.
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Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Aug 30 2009 at 4:24am
Vivian Moon wrote:
Wasteful
On September 24, 2009 at 10 am I will put my case before the State of Ohio |
Thank you!
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Posted By: viper771
Date Posted: Aug 31 2009 at 3:06am
The whole reason why I moved to Middletown was to fix up and old house. I would like my house to be declared historic one day. I don't think a house from the 50s should be historic YET.. maybe when it becomes 80 years old or so. I think the cutoff should be the 30s. I don't think I would want to live in a house that was stuck in the 70s era forever.
Hopefully something good happens with the vault Vivian! Up in Lima, some of the old cemeteries were just "moved", and they built a Lowe's and Menard's on the ground :( The only thing that remains is a little sign that talks about the cemetary as you enter the parking lot.
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 31 2009 at 6:28am
Viper,
I think a historic district with this many newer homes takes away from the importance of an older historic district...jmo
Several small cemeteries have already been moved. The Middletown Cemetery is the largest and the oldest and we really need to save it. I drove past your old house yesterday and it’s looking good.
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Posted By: viper771
Date Posted: Aug 31 2009 at 5:09pm
Yeah I agree Vivian. I do think there are TOO MANY newer homes on that list. I think the old cemetery should be saved and taken care of. I drive past it all the time but I haven't gone in there yet to check it out.
We have been working on the house. I hope by next year I can repoint and maybe start some repainting or something. Been too busy with the important stuff right now to make it look nice :) but it will be great one day.
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Aug 31 2009 at 9:58pm
Consider this.
South Main Historic District - which is listed as a district on the National Register of Historic Places (HHD currently is only receiving local designation by local ordinance) - was added to the Register in 1974. The only structure on South Main individually listed on the NRHP is the Tytus Mansion.
If you use the construction dates of these homes as provided in the Historic Preservation Plan of Middletown, Ohio, and you look solely at those structures not listed as intrusions, calculate their age at the time of the district being listed, and then calculate the average of all structures, it comes to 89 years at the time of listing--and this includes several commercial structures on Main Street.
According to information provided to council, the average age of the homes included in the HHD is 73. So we are talking 16 years difference. This average includes intrusions, which I did not use to calculate my average for SMHD.
I makes more sense, seeing how 88% of the buildings in HHD are 50 or plus years in age, which is one of the qualifications for the National Register, to create a district than to have each home have local designation.
The only individual structures that have local designation (to my knowledge) are 1.) Doty House on Curtis 2.) Middletown Firehouse on Crawford and 3.) Middletown Pioneer Cemetery.
I would rather try to put into place a preservation plan for the HHD district while still a stable neighborhood than to wait until it starts to decline, which is pretty much what happened to South Main.
Just because I advocate for creating this district, doesn't mean that I don't believe there are other structures and districts that could merit local (and perhaps national) designation in Middletown.
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Aug 31 2009 at 10:08pm
Mike_Presta wrote:
The question still remains about why the ORIGINAL wing of Middletown Hospital, without a doubt the MOST historic structure in Mr. Michel's area, was allowed to be demolished before the "historic religion" began to be preached. |
It's my understanding that the original 1915 hospital building was long gone well prior to the discussion of moving the hospital and tearing down the old.
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Aug 31 2009 at 10:28pm
Consider this.
What has become the oldest home still standing in Middletown does not have local designation and is not a NRHP listed structure. But certainly has the history associated with it to be considered! Located on Thorn Hill Lane. Constructed in 1825 on S. Broad near VanDerveer, this Federal style home was moved to Thorn Hill Lane in the 1950s.
It is the family home of Ferdinand VanDerveer.
Ferdinand's father, Dr. Peter VanDerveer purchased the home from its builder, Nathaniel White, shortly after its construction. Dr. VanDerveer was one of the first physicians in the area. Ferdinand was born in 1823, so he definitely spent time in this house.
Legend has it that during the Mexican War, as a Captain Ferdinand's company bivouacked near the house on their way south. For a drill, they would march up the front steps, through the central hall and out the back.
By the end of the war, he had risen to the rank of captain and commanded an assaulting column at the Battle of Monterey. While his regiment was being mustered out Van Derveer served as a second to Capt. Carr B. White in a duel with Lt. Fyffe over promotion White's prmotion to captain. Van Derveer returned home after the war and resumed his legal career. He served for a number of years as the Sheriff of Butler County, Ohio.
When the Civil War began, Van Derveer organized the 35th Ohio Infantry and became its first colonel. It originally consisted of 921 men, 750 of whom came from Butler County. Before disbanding in September 1864, the 35th Ohio Infantry fought at Mill Springs, Perryville, Stones River, Missionary Ridge, and Chickamauga, during which nearly half the men in the regiment were killed or wounded. In 1864, Van Derveer was appointed Brigadier General of Volunteers and assigned to the IV Corps in Alabama in January 1865.
Ferdinand's sister, Margaretta married the Presbyterian minister in town, and lived the couple lived in the house, which was sold to Dr. Barnitz and his wife in 1864.
Ferdinand was also a successful lawyer in Middletown, and later became Butler County Judge.
Why is not? Probably because its owners have not petitioned. It's in an area that is not at risk for significant decline. So why bother?
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Aug 31 2009 at 10:36pm
Mike_Presta wrote:
There is a CONDO on Riverview that was owned by George M. Verity, whose achievements equaled those of Mr. Hook and the others mentioned by SWohio75. Mr. Verity also served as Secretary of Commerce. Can we make a large area around Riverview an "Historic District"???
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Geo M Verity certainly did not own a Condo on Riverview. But his Great-Grandson CW did. And he does have many merits. BUT -- the condo isn't 50 years or more in age. And there are several homes on S. Main that are associated with CW that are already listed.
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Aug 31 2009 at 10:42pm
Mike_Presta wrote:
Jerry Lucas's boyhood home was in the 2200 block of Grand Avenue. Perhaps that should be a "Historic District"???
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While the area itself might not warrant historic designation, I would tend to agree that Mr. Lucas's childhood home should be considered worthy of local historic designation.
Again, where is the property owner making the petition?
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Sep 01 2009 at 5:24am
swohio75 wrote:
Mike_Presta wrote:
The question still remains about why the ORIGINAL wing of Middletown Hospital, without a doubt the MOST historic structure in Mr. Michel's area, was allowed to be demolished before the "historic religion" began to be preached. |
It's my understanding that the original 1915 hospital building was long gone well prior to the discussion of moving the hospital and tearing down the old. | I respectfully disagree. If I am not mistaken, the ORIGINAL hospital structure was converted from medical to administrative use, and remained as such throughout all iterations of the hospital.
However, I would certainly bow to Mr. Crout's knowledge of the subject.
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Sep 01 2009 at 5:31am
swohio75 wrote:
Mike_Presta wrote:
There is a CONDO on Riverview that was owned by George M. Verity, whose achievements equaled those of Mr. Hook and the others mentioned by SWohio75. Mr. Verity also served as Secretary of Commerce. Can we make a large area around Riverview an "Historic District"???
| Geo M Verity certainly did not own a Condo on Riverview. But his Great-Grandson CW did. And he does have many merits. BUT -- the condo isn't 50 years or more in age. And there are several homes on S. Main that are associated with CW that are already listed.
| You are absolutely right!!! I erred. I sit corrected.
However, CW did retain this condo as one of his residences throughout his tenure as Middletown's ONLY Secretary of Commerce, which would stand it in as good a stead as any of the homes in the so-called Highland Historic District. Did any cabinet members reside ever there?
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Sep 01 2009 at 5:53am
swohio75 wrote:
Mike_Presta wrote:
Jerry Lucas's boyhood home was in the 2200 block of Grand Avenue. Perhaps that should be a "Historic District"???
| While the area itself might not warrant historic designation, I would tend to agree that Mr. Lucas's childhood home should be considered worthy of local historic designation.
Again, where is the property owner making the petition? | Well, as is the case in most all of Middletown, property owners do not have the means or the clout (or sometimes even the knowledge of their property's history) to move their property through the process. Many also realize that they don't have the "connections" to get past Mr. Ashworth's Commission on Landmarks and Historic Stuff (or whatever it is called). Nor do many folks realize the financial bonanza that might be available to "historic" stuff (IF Marty is on their side)!!! But I think that the main reason is:
Most Middletonians just have too much COMMON SENSE and too little SNOBBERY to think that their old stuff is "special" or that it should be used as a means to "liberate" hard-earned tax dollars from their less fortunate fellow citizens!
Now that you have me thinking about it, just why DOES the boundary of this proposed Historic District seem to "jut out" for what appears to be the sole purpose of including the manager's sqeeze's house in it??? What is "historic" about THAT place???
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Sep 01 2009 at 6:26am
swohio75
Again...I have never seen the 50 year rule used in a residential area of this size and age range. (Please provide me with an example) The South Main Street Historic District includes commercial buildings . Out of the 66 homes included in HHD only about 40 homeowners want this district....1/3 of these homes are newer....what about their property rights? I don't believe that they clearly understand the regulations that will be placed on their property? How many of the homes in HHD on their individual merit could be placed on the National Register?...Answer: Very few.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Sep 01 2009 at 8:14am
They say that they don't want these "historic" homes divided into apartments!
HISTORY QUIZ:
Q: What house in the proposed district has already once been divided into a THREE-FAMILY TRIPLEX???
Clue: It is on ALEMEDA Circle!!!
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Sep 01 2009 at 9:03am
Vivian Moon wrote:
How many of the homes in HHD on their individual merit could be placed on the National Register?...Answer: Very few. |
Fortunately, that's not for you to determine.
Regardless, the NR allows for the creation of districts to be placed on the Register. While inividual structures might not be eligible, the notion is that the make-up of an entire area could still have merit.
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Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Sep 01 2009 at 11:12am
This turned out to be a very interesting post!
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 5:57am
TudorBrown Glad you enjoyed the discussion however it isn’t over yet. As Mr. Kohler stated last night about 20 homes did vote to approve their home being within this new historic district. Last night Mr. Kohler addressed the questions of rules and regulations placed on these properties since they are part of a historic district. Now we will see what the homeowners think now that they are fully informed. I still do not agree with this area being declared a historic area because of the age span and number of homes involved.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 6:34am
Vivian- went to the Council meeting last night. Heard three or four people stand and talk about the dedication to the area, the upkeep of their homes, previous "movers and shakers" who lived in their homes and that 66% of the residents that had bought into the idea, paying what appears to be H.O.A. dues to the "Highland Historical Society", run by what appeared to be a self-important group of people. Now- which is it? Do these people actually want to preserve the integrity of the area and develop HOA rules to police that integrity OR, do they want the area to be designated an historical area to regulate what can and can't be built on that big piece of vacant ground formerly known as the Middletown Regional Hospital? Seems awfully coincidental, that when the land became vacant, they want to start a preservation group to dictate what will go on that property using the excuse that the area is historic. Why didn't they claim historical significance BEFORE the hospital left? If a piece of property became vacant in another older area of town, would the people living in that area have the same options as these people seem to have- ie claiming historical significance to regulate what can be built on that land? Probably not. Might be another example of the snooty rich imposing their power for special favors.
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 7:06am
Vet
You wait until one of these newer homes want to make an exterior change and see what Mr. Kohler has to say then... They had a big fight in Hamilton over what was going to be built on old school site property across from a historic district. You can bet that they will use this to try control what will be built across from the old hospital site. However since HHD was formed after the old hospital was torn down I don't believe they would win this fight.
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Posted By: Merrell Wood
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 7:33am
Marty, In your pp presentation last night with the dozen or so photos of the most noteworthy homes, you never mentioned why the other 50-55 structures merit inclusion in a zone that historically should normally include only the handful of homes really tied to Middletown's history. Why so many homes and why now? Did these people just get up one morning after 30+ years of the city having one legitment historical district and then decide to have another or is it all about what's next on the hospital property?
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 7:41am
Merrell,
I could be wrong, but that one lot in the little "pimple" on the northwest corner of the proposed historic district was NOT even within the CITY LIMITS when the remainder of the district was annexed. That one lot was part of a much later annexation!!! Why was it included??? How about it, history buffs??? What's the deal here??
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 7:56am
I am not getting all of the hoopla about this matter. Last night no one spoke against this matter. This has supposedly been in the works for two years. No one that owns a house there complained. I don't blame them for possibly wanting a say in what goes on the old hospital site. We don't need anymore multi family housing units, young or old. Yup they have to follow the rules and the time to voice your opinion was last night. It isn't like this was sprung on everyone like the Adkins fiasco.
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Posted By: Merrell Wood
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 8:21am
Pac. Last night was the 1st reading for the public to be aware of the issue and beleave me it was unknown to many... or for that matter any 1st reading on most issues that come before council. That's why their's a 1st reading. As I understand it, once the public officially is aware of an issue...during the next two weeks they can do a variety of things to question it, present other related information, lobby with council members etc. The 2nd reading and vote comes when council members have considered info from both sides and then votes. JMO
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Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 8:23am
Vivian Moon wrote:
TudorBrown Glad you enjoyed the discussion however it isn’t over yet. As Mr. Kohler stated last night about 20 homes did vote to approve their home being within this new historic district. Last night Mr. Kohler addressed the questions of rules and regulations placed on these properties since they are part of a historic district. Now we will see what the homeowners think now that they are fully informed. I still do not agree with this area being declared a historic area because of the age span and number of homes involved.
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I've been told that Main Street would be in better shape today had it gained Historic District status earlier?
I'm not exactly for or against the idea, I do enjoy reading this boards opinions on the matter.
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 8:41am
Merrell I fully understand the 1st and 2nd reading. No one directly involved, they owned a home in the area in question, did not know that the matter was going before council last night. No one with a home in the affected area that opposed the Historic designation showed up to voice their opposition last night. This has been discussed by those people in the area for two years and no one voiced opposition that has a home there according to Kohler before other meetings. So let them have their designation.
Personally I don't care one way or the other. It doesn't affect me and my home was built in 1975 so I'll be long gone before anyone considers my home historic.
Personally I think Adkins designating the whole City, Poverty City, Ohio, is a much bigger deal and all over $600k in CDBG Money, come on this is ridicules. I would think you all would be up in arms much more about that.
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Posted By: Merrell Wood
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 9:35am
Pac, I try to let you guys handle the real important stuff.
As to the new "historic district" I've got a column on the topic out some time this week. I pretty much make the point about the number of houses, the timing, and compairson to other city's historical districts etc. Obviously, there is no threat to their neighborhood from anything but the hospital. I just wish someone would say in public that's what it's really about. As to the number of homes involved.....66.....crazy. I still think it's an abuse of the spirit/intent of that kind of designation. South Street District was built by the founders of the city and our major industry's. I'll give it a dozen large houses on the hill build by the CEO's etc of the orginal folks on South Main....but more than 50 houses that have nothing to do with the history of Middletown, sorry. To me it's just another version of how the elite on the charter committee were able to put two critical issues together on one ballot to totally change the way people may be represented by their council members.
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Posted By: Merrell Wood
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 10:09am
TudorBrown, You say Mr. Kohler said last night that about 20 homeowners did not vote to approve their homes to be in the new district? Are you sure?
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Posted By: Merrell Wood
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 10:11am
Sorry Tudor, I now see it was Vivian Moon which made the claim. Ditto to the question Vivian.
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Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 10:56am
I watched the meeting last night and I am not sure but it might have been that 20 people had not paid into the HOA that they had established. I know there are historical homes up there, but I can not imagine if I had a home built in the 70's that I would want to pay a fee to be in a historical district. I have to agree with you Merrell - it won't effect me either way - just state the real reason for the designation. It all has to do with the old hospital land. The designation should be lowered down to the homes that are historical not the entire 66.
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Posted By: Iliveheretoo
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 11:08am
Look I live two blocks over the High Lands, My house is 150 years old and was owned by a prominent doctor back when it was built. So why is not my home or thew ones around me included in this historic District? I can tell you why! I dont live close enough to the old hospital. We all know thats what it is all about. I dont have a problem with that, but just say that. Stop with all the talk about it is needed to preserve Middletown crap. Just say it for what it is...You dont want section 8 built there. I dont blame you, but stop with the my old house crap.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Sep 02 2009 at 12:45pm
Merrell- I thought I heard that 20 number as to the ones not having paid their "membership" dues and I believe one of the presenters said that one homeowner opted out of the HOA altogether.
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