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Historic code 1210
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Points: 3483 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2010 at 4:46am
Originally posted by rngrmed rngrmed wrote:

I truly wonder if some of the original owners of these historic homes would have upgraded their homes over the years. 
Well of course they would have, Ranger!!
The orignal owners were brainy, conservative successful industrialists, unlike the screwball wingnuts that own the joints now and just want to "play" like they are better than the rest of us.
Another big difference is that the original owners would have upgraded (and actually did upgrade) those places with THEIR OWN MONEY, and not tax money confiscated from the working poor!!
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Points: 3483 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2010 at 5:52am

Now, getting back to you, my good friend Mtown:

You see, the rest of §1.19 of the Ohio Constitution that YOU “conveniently forgot” (your words, not mine) to quote, listed examples of the types and times of public exigencies wherein it was proper for “per se takings,” whether “direct” or “regulatory” in nature, of private property for public use. NONE of the examples given were ANYTHING like the conditions contained in ordinance 1210 nor were any of the examples given so narrowly  beneficial  numerically in scope to “members of the public” as the number being benefited by the types and times described in ordinance 1210.

In other words, this ordinance was much more broadly and loosely written, but benefits only a few!!!
 
And I mean all of the foregoing with all due respect possible for me to muster to the pinhead who authored it!!
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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spiderjohn View Drop Down
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Points: 2749 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2010 at 7:39am
What about the 5 pinheads whot couldn't wait to approve this ordinance?
Or Mr.Picard, who couldn't bring the vote quickly enough?
 
These people have become dangerous.
A true threat to the community.
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Mr. Presta:
 
This ordinance only applies to "Historic Districts or Historic Landmarks".  Tell me exactly which section of the ordinance states that it  applies to "any" property in the City.
 
Dan Picard
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I think it's time to bring in the ACLU.
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Originally posted by danpicard danpicard wrote:

Mr. Presta:
 
This ordinance only applies to "Historic Districts or Historic Landmarks".  Tell me exactly which section of the ordinance states that it  applies to "any" property in the City.
 
Dan Picard

Mr. Picard:

For one place:

1210.03(e)(1) e) General Powers and Duties. The Historic Commission shall have the following powers and duties, in addition to those otherwise specified:

(1) The Historic Commission shall conduct a continuous survey of all areas, places, structures, works of art, or similar objects in the City which the Commission has reason to believe are or will be eligible for designation as historic sites, landmarks or districts.

My comments (included in my email to ALL council members, dated Thu, September 2, 2010 2:16 am):

 This is entirely to broad and subjective!!! Now “all” areas are included as are “works of art”!! So, are we to assume that all “history buffs” that will be appointed to this commission will also be qualified “art critics”??? Aren’t we getting into some pretty specialized areas here??? And “similar objects”??? What in the world are “similar objects“??? This is a LAW, and here we are, under “powers and duties” giving them control over “works of art and SIMILAR OBJECTS”!!! Isn’t “art” in the eye of the beholder??? This could be ANYTHING!!! This is a TERRIBLE law, and subject to all sorts of abuse!!!

For another place:

1210.05(a) Criteria. In considering any area, place, structure, work of art or similar object in the City as a historic site …

For another place:

1210.05

(6) Its relationship to other distinctive areas or structures designated for preservation;

(7) Its unique location or singular physical characteristic representing an

established and familiar feature of the City; and…

My comments (included in my email to ALL council members, dated Thu, September 2, 2010 2:16 am):

This is entirely too broad!! EVERY single point in the city, indeed in the universe, is, in fact a “unique location” and should not qualify it for any special designation! Remember, this is “legislation”. This is making these words a “LAW”! To allow a group who has a self-proclaimed “interest and proficiency in historic preservation, reconstruction, rehabilitation and restoration” to declare each and every “point” in the city a “historic landmark” simply because it is a “unique location” will be to invite graft, corruption, and underhanded deal-making and extortion throughout the city.

And one of the most egregious of all:

1210.06 PROCEDURES FOR DESIGNATING HISTORIC LANDMARKS AND HISTORIC DISTRICTS

This section, in its entirety, deals with designating additional properties, and/or districts as “historic“, EVEN AGAINST THE OWNERS’ WISHES!!!

Haven’t you even read this thing yet, man???

How could you vote on it without reading it???

Scroll up in this very thread!!! See my post of 07 Sep 2010 at 7:39pm !!!

I posted the entire Ordinance, exactly as I emailed it to you, with my comments to the most offensive sections!!!
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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So sure, it only applies to "Historic Districts or Historic Landmarks".  BUT IT GIVES THEM THE POWER TO DECLARE ANYTHING THEY DAMN WELL PLEASE A HISTORIC DISTRICT OR LANDMARK!!!
 
Sheesh!!  I can't believe that you didn't know what you were voting for!!!
 
 
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Points: 3483 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2010 at 9:11am
Attorney Picard:
Did ya notice all of the stuff they included by reference???
Do ya have ANY IDEA what all of that stuff is???
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Points: 3483 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2010 at 9:23am

Mr Picard:

Do you know what the “Historic Preservation Plan” and the “adopted design guidelines” are???  No?? Well, YOU just made the entire city subject to these things, at the whim of this History Czar, and the "Historic Preservation Administrator"!!
Oh, Ya didn't know we had a "Historic Preservation Administrator"???  YOU just created one with this ordinance!!!  Where will we get the money to pay this guy, (and guess who they have in mind for this PAID poisition!!!) 
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Points: 3483 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2010 at 9:37am
Oh, and Mr. Picard, just in case you didn't see it.  Do you recall Kohler standing up there with a straight face on August 17, saying that there was NOTHING in this ordinance about picking colors???
 
Well, I direct your attention to section 1210.10(a), which states, in part:
Nothing in this ordinance shall be construed to prevent the ordinary repair and maintenance of any exterior architectural feature of a Historic Landmark or Historic District property which does not involve a change in design, material, color, or outward appearance
 
I guess you didn't read that part, either!!!
 
If these posts sound like I'm angry, it's because I'm angry!
 
YOU let the PEOPLE down!!!
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Points: 3483 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2010 at 9:38am
I won't wait on your reply, because I doubt that you will have one!!
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2010 at 9:43am
Mike
You are correct.
The Middletown Cemetery was declared historic in February 2006
Historic cemetery law covers these items; buildings, vaults, sculpture, tombstones, fences, water features, trees, plants, and even ground cover.
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2010 at 10:01am

Mike

Isn't this the same argument of law that we made for the large number of newer homes (infill properties) that were going to be included in the Highlands Historic District?
Didn't Marty assured them that it would NOT have any effect on their property?....hmmmmmm


 
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Points: 2749 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2010 at 12:20pm
Mr.Picard
Thank you for your prompt and courteous reply. I hope you stick around to participate in constructive discussion on this site. Maybe you could explain your reasoning for supporting this ordinance and the need to bring the vote immediately last Tuesday.
Also--your thoughts on the Pendleton arrangement and the Main St.Project.
The Main St.Project was approved Tuesday, however I have never really understood what was approved, or what this project is actually going to accomplish.
 
It is a HUGE step for you to come here.
Few do so for long.
I hope that you will be treated with proper respect, and recognized for your willingness to serve.
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Rhodes View Drop Down
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I finally had the chance to watch some of last Tuesday's city meeting. I guess it's ok to call someone out in the video since they spoke at a public meeting.

There was a man that spoke as a resident of South Main, he said his is Dan Gawron. Did anyone else see this? Aside from the fact that he came off a little psychotic, did he actually think he was being persuasive? Somebody told me this guy had an old dying tree in his front yard several years ago. There was a large hole in the bottom of it where it was rotting. Instead of doing the proper safe thing and removing the tree, he actually took brick and mortar and filled in the large hole. Surprise, surprise, the tree still died and had to come down. I guess curbside trees are historic too.

These are the people that make fun of us posters on MUSA?
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Of course many people saw him.
 
I am unsure of the point he was trying to make.  He seemed to be equating opposition to Ordinace 1210 to mayhem in the streets and hog-raising in the city and advocacy of abandonment of speed limits. 
 
I suppose if he did not read the ordinance any more carefully than some of the attorneys that hang around city hall did, that would be an easy mistake to make.  After all, many who do not know me at all accuse me of being an art-hater and anti-history zealot.
 
Oh well, ignorance is bliss.
 
I may not agree with what he had to say, but I certainly defend his right to say it.  I actually hope that he speaks more often during Citizens' Comments.  Perhaps next time he will defend some of our city officials specifically and by name!!!
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Points: 2749 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 12 2010 at 9:39am
Hey--finally a crazy person at the podium that has not been associated with MUSA.
That was pretty amazing entertainment--might make a good Councilmember!
Or a plum spot on the Historic Property Repressive Committee.
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Thanks so much for the wonderful information you provided us
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Mr. Picard:
I hate to say "I tild you so", but I told you so!!!
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

Originally posted by danpicard danpicard wrote:

Mr. Presta:
 
This ordinance only applies to "Historic Districts or Historic Landmarks".  Tell me exactly which section of the ordinance states that it  applies to "any" property in the City.
 
Dan Picard

Mr. Picard:

For one place:

1210.03(e)(1) e) General Powers and Duties. The Historic Commission shall have the following powers and duties, in addition to those otherwise specified:

(1) The Historic Commission shall conduct a continuous survey of all areas, places, structures, works of art, or similar objects in the City which the Commission has reason to believe are or will be eligible for designation as historic sites, landmarks or districts.

My comments (included in my email to ALL council members, dated Thu, September 2, 2010 2:16 am):

 This is entirely to broad and subjective!!! Now “all” areas are included as are “works of art”!! So, are we to assume that all “history buffs” that will be appointed to this commission will also be qualified “art critics”??? Aren’t we getting into some pretty specialized areas here??? And “similar objects”??? What in the world are “similar objects“??? This is a LAW, and here we are, under “powers and duties” giving them control over “works of art and SIMILAR OBJECTS”!!! Isn’t “art” in the eye of the beholder??? This could be ANYTHING!!! This is a TERRIBLE law, and subject to all sorts of abuse!!!

 …

We will now have this gang at the Historic Commission deciding an issue (the use of “multicolor car hoods from junk yards for siding”) which is clearly in violation of our city's Planning and Zoning Ordinances in an UCC zone, under the guise of "art"!!!
 
Or will we???  We had TWO attorneys vote in favor of this MIS-GUIDED ordinance, which was reviewed and approved by our City Law Director!!!  Make sure that this "gang" follows the letter of the law!!!
 
I hope that the intelligent council members watch this closely!!!
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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1210.03(e)(1) e) General Powers and Duties. The Historic Commission shall have the following powers and duties, in addition to those otherwise specified:

(1) The Historic Commission shall conduct a continuous survey of all areas, places, structures, works of art, or similar objects in the City which the Commission has reason to believe are or will be eligible for designation as historic sites, landmarks or districts.        ????????

I think their observation glasses got fogged up. There is a mighty fine school building being torn down as I type this!
Stormy
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