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Thursday, November 21, 2024 |
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$2 BILLION DOLLAR ENTERTAINMENT VENUE |
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buddhalite 
MUSA Citizen 
Joined: May 11 2017 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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 Topic: $2 BILLION DOLLAR ENTERTAINMENT VENUEPosted: Oct 05 2021 at 4:22pm |
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Sheesh - here we go again. They want to build a huge entertainment complex on the Great Miami Drainage Ditch!
Tell your councilmembers NO! Then vote 'em the hell out! We got some decent ones to vote in this time - which could give us a 3-2 margin on the council! Here's the quick letter I sent them. ---- Dear Members of council, Madam Mayor, Madam Clerk and Mr. City Manager: It's time for the City of Middletown to stop abusing taxpayer monies (and before you come at me with a retort that it isn't LOCAL money - it's still my money regardless of the source!) on things that the private sector would never do on its own. Here we are again - this time you want to write a 7.5 MILLION dollar check to create yet another failed project that no one wants to come to. Instead of taxing people to death in this city (this last time for the roads, now fire stations) stick that money is places that it is NEEDED not merely desired by the South Main types. You have a chance here to do something really, really good for the community with this money - proceeding with this giveaway of our lands, taxpayer dollars to a Minnesota corporation - well, it's beyond the pale. Why don't the good folks on South Main just kick in the $2B needed to build this monstrosity - if they want it - let them build it. While the EAST end - the gateway to all things Middletown - dies on the vine without support from council - we're gonna build another eyesore we have to use taxpayer dollars to demolish twenty years from now. Y'all don't know how to learn from mistakes, do ya? Respectfully submitted, Bob Nolan |
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"Every government intervention [in the marketplace] creates unintended consequences, which lead to calls for further government interventions." -Ludwig van Mises
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Oct 06 2021 at 4:05pm |
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lol Buddha—-I assumed that last night’s presentation would bring some action here.
The $$ sounds like something out of the Biden playbook and the “B-word” is a big number. 7.5 mill $$ in our own cash up front for his entities’ initial project( do they have any past projects of this scope alReady in operation and successful anywhere?). As for the Main Street crowd, I didn’t hear much support from the residents….actually the opposite. “Not in my backyard” loudly and clearly. Obvious road enlargement, traffic/parking/noise issues to impact property values and residential quality of life issues were mentioned. Not sure exactly who is the local groups in support here—waiting to hear Council and candidate opines and comments…. Sounds as if Forest Hills is giving in after a good try to sustain. Seems to be a key piece of real estate to make this work, along with demo of west S Main from First to Sorg mansion? Browns run could go also? Personally, I Don’t see the community showing enough support for existing local businesses as a major concern. Maybe a non-issue from my head? The location seems to work better in Hamilton, and maybe some type of river transportation from north/south? Highway access has always been problematic as it always has. Route 4 improvements on both ends of the city? 122 from the west? Actually I see the biggest winners from this project being property owners and townships just across the river bridge. Not yet hooked to Middletown city control……. Thoughts?? |
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Bill
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Posted: Oct 07 2021 at 10:33am |
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I haven't followed this very closely but why are several on council now against this emergency legislation? Surely they are aware of this project that their hand-picked City Manager has been involved in.
For all those that criticize the "Main St crowd" for meddling in everything you should take their dislike of this project with a grain of salt. This town cannot be held hostage to the whims of South Main. As for the project itself, it seems quite ambitious and hard to believe. Yes, some level of city funding is needed here and I'll leave it up to each person to decide if that is too much or simply part of playing ball in the development world. That said, doesn't it say something that private dollars believe this can be successful? Additional jobs, entertainment options, etc. While it seems like it makes more sense by the highway, this is obviously a downtown/river vision and not another I-75 destination idea. Too many in this town are both jaded about the condition of the town AND are unwilling to consider outside the box opportunities. The city could use a little less excitement about a new Chipotle or a new hair salon and a little more appetite for something big. This project may have a few warts but it is definitely big and worth seriously considering.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Oct 07 2021 at 12:58pm |
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Seems as if the best course of action might be for the current Council to collect as much info as possible on this project and share it with citizens and candidates for the November Council election. Then put off this very important vote until the new Council is seated.
Candidates could then make their position very clear on this project, and the citizens could decide on Election Day. |
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Richard Saunders
MUSA Resident 
Joined: Jun 30 2010 Status: Offline Points: 232 |
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Posted: Oct 07 2021 at 3:40pm |
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Where do I start?
Let's ignore for the moment whether or not this is even a an economically feasible project. I don't think that City Hall has thought this through. What state or federal agency permits will be required, and how long will it take to obtain them? Consider that this project includes a 3,000+ car underground parking garage right in our aquifer. Permits aside, how will this affect cost? Of course they could just pull another "Lake Mistake" and start without proper permits. Think back to the $13 million project to remove the roof from the downtown mall. Everyone at City Hall considered that a huge, overwhelming project and they couldn't figure out a way to do that in less than 3 years. They didn't get the concept of "uncouple and accelerate". They will be completely overwhelmed by a project such as this, but will refuse to let it go and let the experts handle it, so turn the two years into at least four or five. With the trades workforce available in this area, it's probably a four year job anyway, so when you add 2 years for City Hall's meddling, make it five. And it may take that long to get it past the Biden EPA in the first place, so by the time such a project could actually get going, with inflation it's likely to cost $3 or $4 billion.
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buddhalite
MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 11 2017 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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Posted: Oct 07 2021 at 10:15pm |
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The meeting was an exercise in futility. It was apparent at that moment that 4 of the 5 thought the entire city would jump up and down screaming in anticipation of the projects completion.....
Until.... Comments started. I agree - the SMain types that I thought would have been for it (I wrote the opening salvo on this before the meeting ever started) were solidly AGAINST this - although I think the developers misread one thing BIG TIME on this project.... The name. If the name had been Miami Wonderland or The Landings at Miami Trails - this might have been better received. The name just doesn't fit anything you'd ever see in suburban anywhere - let alone Steel City USA. So - our fearful city of <50k now is gonna have three big complexes like this? From the Mall (which has gained no traction I don't think) the whatever district they want to redevelop and now the riverfront - wow. Millions of visitors to a 50K population city? And - to top it all off - it was an EMERGENCY measure. Why? I would think that as long as this thing will take to complete jumping a legislative hoop like waiting the extra few weeks to just treat it as regular legislation is just their way of mitigating the wait to get it voted in and over with. What I always love is how council believe there's no on in Middletown capable of doing anything like this without bringing in out of state people and giving them huge sums of our money that we'll never see again when they run off with it. I mean - I'll gladly take the nearly 9M they want to commit to this project and you'll never see my fat ass again! This whole thing is a crock of excrement and it stinketh.
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"Every government intervention [in the marketplace] creates unintended consequences, which lead to calls for further government interventions." -Ludwig van Mises
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buddhalite
MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 11 2017 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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Posted: Oct 07 2021 at 10:16pm |
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Was this a serious comment or were you speaking tongue-in-cheek?
You know they were hoping to ram this through before 2 of them disappear....
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"Every government intervention [in the marketplace] creates unintended consequences, which lead to calls for further government interventions." -Ludwig van Mises
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Richard Saunders
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 30 2010 Status: Offline Points: 232 |
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Posted: Oct 07 2021 at 10:56pm |
There probably are only one or two very old guys who are capable (or at least have the experience) of handling a job like this, so they will have to bring in out-of-towners. For example, who in town realizes that a job this size needs a Project Labor Agreement negotiated with the General President's Committee of the AFL-CIO Building & Trades Council before the first shovel of dirt is turned? I believe that only one guy in Middletown has ever been involved in the negotiations for a billion $+ Project Labor Agreement before, and he's older than dirt.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Oct 08 2021 at 9:10am |
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I don’t know of any locals that could pull this off, and the entity engaged with the city has no record of doing it either. Your hat being my main concern. Seems we usually get burned when we go that way(Manchester—Goetz/Rose).
City has worked on this somewhat quietly for 10 months and just sprung it on the public as a 3-week emergency?? As mentioned prior, there would need to be studies about impact in that area and infrastructure to support the project. Also the labor and materials issue to get it done. Will take a long while and probably cost considerably more. Probably fits with the Oaklawn project if we can afford both…..will Garfįeld/Baltimore area be leveled? Seems a stretch, however I have no skin in the game and don’t really know if the project is a good idea or what….. Can’t fault the city for shooting high and reaching for a breakthrough. As a lifer, the city seems somewhat quiet these days with very limited dining/entertainment options. Puts Joe Mulligan in the hot seat after 3 generations of Mulligan comments at the meeting and an upcoming Council election. I still think that this should be a key Council election issue where candidates take a stand and the public decides on Election Day…. Otherwise probably time for me to shut up and watch….. |
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Richard Saunders
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 30 2010 Status: Offline Points: 232 |
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Posted: Oct 08 2021 at 10:39pm |
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And another thing...I wonder how much of the land these folks have targeted for redevelopment are considered by our friends in the federal government as "wetlands"? Will all of this acreage actually be allowed to be developed? Will displaced wetlands have to be replaced by new wetlands in adjacent areas?
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buddhalite
MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 11 2017 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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Posted: Oct 08 2021 at 11:10pm |
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FWIW - there's at least 4 people in this city who know all the ins and outs of this sort of thing - they just weren't asked or included.
But also - therein lies the problem. This is WAY out of place in Middletown, Ohio! It doesn't fit the tenor of the community in any way.
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"Every government intervention [in the marketplace] creates unintended consequences, which lead to calls for further government interventions." -Ludwig van Mises
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buddhalite
MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 11 2017 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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Posted: Oct 08 2021 at 11:12pm |
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So, you're okay with it?
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"Every government intervention [in the marketplace] creates unintended consequences, which lead to calls for further government interventions." -Ludwig van Mises
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accuro
MUSA Resident
Joined: May 31 2009 Status: Offline Points: 103 |
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Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 8:25am |
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What has happened to Middletown and this forum? Taxes for roads, big plans, coming back, why? JD Vance writing a book that the movie failed but gained fame more for explaining the Trump win. Challenging right, bleach right, having an ambassador drug through Benghazi with 4 or 5 rangers former seals and Rangers help? Pretty elementary, they disdained Hillary.
The project. This is Kings Island in audacious, fictitious numbers. Traffic coming through Monroe, utilization of numbers withing proximity. What about Fraze? Enormous venues for concerts, including MUM. Hotels? For what? Hlywoodland, the metaphor for Ron Howard and HE or similar. Productions? Streaming. This has to be a comic in disguise of fiction. Seems someone wants to control politically Mn to Florida, get rid of Admins now Jones playing same tune, there might be a clnflict in civil matted, nuts. Showtime and diversion. The redistricting politics is CIA dangerous.the project, politics, not money. Raccine is upscale, many commute from there to Chicago to work. This is a ridiculous concept. Firing Admins and having Triple Moon cannabolize by HWL. But Adkins was placed, not fired. Wheres the Finance Mgr they havent placed in 6 months? Power brokers over from Trenton in public sector pulling these moves. Maybe UD who owns the Dayton Marriott will place one in The city for HWL. Amzing the hypocricy and hyperbole that came from JD Vance. He described angry white guys and even admitted the correlation with Trump was non existent, it was Hillary C was so bad. Now we have passed high h tax, paved roads, painted grey city, cancelled football games, shots football players? And have Elvis ergo Las Vegas moving in. The mayor was the rock star on display. Questions, not buying into the dream big of a minor turnaround thanks to Cliffs to Marimac Island now Middletown. Redistricting did this, and a Mn to Florida political lobbyist dream. |
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An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out. - Will Rogers
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middiemom
MUSA Resident
Joined: May 21 2014 Status: Offline Points: 192 |
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Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 10:41am |
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What?????
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Middletown... Bright past BRIGHTER FUTURE!!!
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 3:40pm |
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lol—translation?
One last thought: Is this being emergencied in order to get it passed before the Council election? Vitori’s yes vote will be gone…..maybe Mulligan the way the public is reacting. The other candidates are wild cards so far. The next 10 days should be interesting as rumors and info fly around! |
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accuro
MUSA Resident
Joined: May 31 2009 Status: Offline Points: 103 |
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Posted: Oct 09 2021 at 4:11pm |
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Translation. Raccine, Wisc., City Mgr came from there, upscale, thinking Middletown is Raccine? High wealth community on Lake Michigan.
2. If non emergency, 3-2 vote even i favor, defeats it. Joe M will vote NO. 3. Hollywoodland, perception name came from Ron Howard movie, Hillbilly Eulogy, supposition, or the streams are 3d movies? Didnt get context of venues offered. 4. Adkins. Fired because he upset Triple Moon but the project cannabolizes entire downtown. Ironic right? 5. Politics. Firm out of Mn, Cliffs major footprint in Mn, tight relationship with Dewine and local politics, real. 6. Maayor- Great questions, push back. 7. Example- admission only they relied on numbers of people in 25 miles. Non address of competition of competitive venues, Fraze, others. Bigger drawl, casino v this project? No answers how long you would stay, show, then concert, then what, 10 hrs there, stay in hotel, why? Then hit Gracies or bar downtown? Why? Port authority. Warren and Middletown. Leverage amenities and markets but this plays where against West Chester, Cincinnati, equivalent offerings? |
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An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out. - Will Rogers
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Bill
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Posted: Oct 12 2021 at 2:39pm |
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I don't profess to know about the feasibility of this project...certainly lifers here have reason to be a little cynical about pie-in-the-sky plans. But three points come to mind --
1. Why here? It would seem this kind of project could be built in dozens of places throughout the Midwest. So why HERE? I wonder about the developers' motives for a location that is relatively inconvenient for visitors. 2. Very few in this town could evaluate and project whether a venture will be a success or not. 3. Too many here seem to have cavier standards when it comes to anything happening in town. These same folks would probably rather see a Trump immigrant detention center built along the river than anything resembling an attractive destination.
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buddhalite
MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 11 2017 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 11:40pm |
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Just looked at the published agenda for Tuesday's City Council meeting...no mention of Hollywoodland.
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"Every government intervention [in the marketplace] creates unintended consequences, which lead to calls for further government interventions." -Ludwig van Mises
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Richard Saunders
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 30 2010 Status: Offline Points: 232 |
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Posted: Oct 16 2021 at 1:25am |
La La Land...oops...Hollywoodland will be on the agenda of a "special" meeting on Thursday, 10/21/2021.
Also, if you look back at my first post on this thread I commented that the "two year" projected schedule reported in the Hamilton-Middletown Urinal News on 10/7 would likely end up at 4 or 5 years. The City Manager has already conceded that it will be "3 or 4". I stand by my projection of 4 to 5. I also stand by my other past remarks. Make a note of them, they will come to pass if this project is given a green light. Also, They project the hiring of 15 new police officers and 12 new firefighters/EMTs during/after this project. That's only 3 or 4 per shift. This will be to service an AVERAGE of 10,000 visitors per day, 365 days per year, plus who knows how many new residents/workers/grifters during and after the construction. (Construction workers will be in the thousands to complete it in even 5 years; carnies and other workers to run the new operation will also run in the thousands.) Our police and fire are stretched now, and City Hall wants to move fire stations FARTHER away from the river. So, will 3 or 4 additional firefighters/EMTs and police per shift even maintain the status quo level of service? What do YOU think. I know what I think. |
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buddhalite
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Joined: May 11 2017 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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Posted: Oct 16 2021 at 3:31pm |
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Ah. Honestly I'm so blindingly mad about this that I can't see straight on the matter.
I completely agree with you - the numbers on all of this don't add up - and I kinda feel like Middletown is River City, Iowa and we're in the worst version of the Music Man ever displayed. The talking heads from Racine are pretty funny to watch - and they know our beloved City Manager - this video is worth a watch if you haven't seen it yet. These guys know the swindle first hand - and if you think about it - this may be the largest swindle of its kind yet - reserved for Middletown! Take a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrfnmL3RKpc
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"Every government intervention [in the marketplace] creates unintended consequences, which lead to calls for further government interventions." -Ludwig van Mises
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middletownscouter
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Joined: Oct 11 2010 Location: Sunset Park Status: Offline Points: 501 |
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Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 8:47am |
Once this is done, we definitely need a way to move all these visitors from the highway to downtown. Only one solution for that: MONORAIL! |
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There are two types of people: those that talk the talk and those that walk the walk. People who walk the walk sometimes talk the talk but most times they don't talk at all, 'cause they walkin.'
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 5:31pm |
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Have you watched the second Racine video?
To me, it was more interesting than the first….. |
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accuro
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Joined: May 31 2009 Status: Offline Points: 103 |
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Posted: Oct 18 2021 at 11:15pm |
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A physician said, the vaccine (cash) came before the pandemic, man made, to yield Bb for opiate settlement, to restructure mobile workers, write code in WVa or Vt, than California, and to consolidate government control. Mega Bb companies, once broken apart. Internet today, Spectrum or ATT.
This is more police, fire, needing new bldings and jail. The Bitler Cty plane, watching your hand pick up a dime. Its the police, jail, not the entertainment mecca. Covid worked. All that excess money given to states, down. Mayor has this figured out, not sure about others. |
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An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out. - Will Rogers
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buddhalite
MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 11 2017 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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Posted: Oct 19 2021 at 10:32pm |
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It certainly was - I kinda like them guys. Maybe we need a show like that here in Middletown.
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"Every government intervention [in the marketplace] creates unintended consequences, which lead to calls for further government interventions." -Ludwig van Mises
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middiemom
MUSA Resident
Joined: May 21 2014 Status: Offline Points: 192 |
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Posted: Oct 23 2021 at 9:10am |
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This council… I thought the Williams, Schiavone, Marconi era was tragic. But oh my god! That Thursday night meeting was amateur hour. Is this the best we can do? Council members not inquiring with the ethics committee until they were caught. One that STILL hasn’t consulted but promises to? This deal sounds like a bait and switch to me. Why does a council member or two appear to be so furious that questions are being asked? Something is rotten in suburbia! Welcome to the clown show! 🤡
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Middletown... Bright past BRIGHTER FUTURE!!!
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