Firefighter Proposal

Today's Journal....

Middletown firefighters agree to wage freeze, will pay more for health care

MIDDLETOWN — Firefighters have agreed to no wage increases for at least two years and to double their health care payments, according to a new three-year IAFF contract City Council is considering

“I think considering the economic times and the financial times the governor put the city in, it was a win for the city,” IAFF President Jon Harvey said, “and there was no sense of us prolonging any kind of process when our goal is to try to move this city forward.”

But Councilman Josh Laubach thinks the city staff “could have done a better job.”

But Laubach believes the contract is not beneficial for the city.

“I think we have to do a better job if we’re going to move forward in the future and provide adequate safety protection and meet all of our obligations,” he said.

He’d like to see more money invested in infrastructure

SO WOULD THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE LIVING HERE MR. LAUBACH BUT SOMEHOW NONE OF US THINK THAT WILL HAPPEN.

And Laubach said about 70 percent of the city’s general fund is spent on police and fire, and he said the city cannot afford that.

“I think we need a pay reduction, which isn’t there,” he said. “And the ‘me too’ clause was not in the best interest of city employees.”

“We’re spending so much on public safety; we’re not spending enough (local) money on our infrastructure,” he said

AGREE-SO WHEN IS THE STREET FUND GOING TO HAVE IT'S MONEY RETURNED FROM THE "BORROWING" DONE FOR "EMERGENCY PURPOSES" IN 1986?

Harvey disagrees with Laubach’s assessment, saying historically cities nationwide pay 70 to 80 percent for police and fire departments.

Middletown has budgeted 72 percent of the general fund for public safety, or just under $21 million, for 2012. Of the $8.9 million spent on the fire department, 88 percent is spent on personnel.

88 PERCENT OF THE 8.9 MIL ON PERSONNEL! TOO HIGH ISN'T IT?

“That’s where citizens say where they want their money spent,” Harvey said. “I think Josh’s hatred for unions gets in his way of thinking clearly

MAYBE AMEND THAT TO SAY "JOSH'S HATRED FOR UNION GREED" HARVEY. AND NO, LAUBACH IS THINKING QUITE CLEARLY.

Harvey said the contract does move the city forward because it controls costs, and there’s no substantial cost to the city

HOW DO YOU FIGURE THAT 88% on 8.9 MIL IS NO SUBSTANTIAL COST? MOST OF THE BUDGET MONEY IS CONSUMED BY SALARIES AND BENEFIT COSTS. 'BOUT TIME YOU PUBLIC SECTOR FOLKS STARTED PAYING 15% TOWARD YOUR BENNIES. 7.5% HAS BEEN A GIFT FOR MANY YEARS FOR YOU. PRIVATE SECTOR PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PAYING 15% OR MORE FOR MANY YEARS. IT'S YOUR TURN NOW TO SHARE IN THE MISERY.

All these "Union Greed" comments piss me off. If you say that it is only because you know NOT what you are talking about and also, i suspect, You are a childish person that only wants what you want and DON'T want facts to get in the way.

Josh and the other Anti Union hard heads keep saying Middletown Government should be run like a Business, well I agree!  Then quit whining and do so.  If a business can't afford 50 employees but can afford 45, then they lay off 5 employees. Do the same with the City Staff. Geeez, it is not hard math.

The real problem is the greedy people of the World still want all the services and protection that a fully staffed City Government provides but they don't want to pay for it. They want the Unions to work for poverty wages so they can have their subservient under class to SERVE them.  That is what it really is all about.

  The simple fact is that Middletown is no longer the substantial City it was 50 yrs ago. We need to accept it and move on. If we can't afford the Police and Fire protection we would like to have, then we just CAN'T afford it. Making the Police and Fire Fighters become poorly paid servants is NO answer.

SB5 IS dead because most Ohioans understand just how stupid it was. It is as unAmerican as anything I have seen in my whole lifetime. To support it suggest that you either are a greedy elitist like Mr Kasich, or you are just an uninformed dupe of the Neo Conservatives.

First...who cares what someone else pays for "bennies"? Total compensation is all that matters.At AK/Armco, they waived a raise one year to get a better Pension plan. Is it any of YOUR business HOW someone chooses to be compensated? NO it is not! 

 If you want to talk total compensation, you may have a viable argument and I might actually agree with you based on what you say. HOWEVER, as soon as you bring up bennies, I write you off as the brainwashed type I mentioned earlier.

Clearly, your Escalade comment proves you know nothing about AK pay. Working shift work and in a bad environment, one will make about 50k-60 at AK. That is working the Christmas and Thankgiving and thru most of the Football Games your son might have. That is not excessive. If your nieghbor has the things it because they LIVE (much overtime) at AK or more than likely have a hard working Spouse in serious job.

Concessions? That is entirely up to the Union. If the workers choose to make less so that all current employees can stay, that is up them. Just because YOU want more services that you want to pay for doesn't mean someone else should have to work for less.To act like they are greedy just shows me YOU are greedy.

SB5 is an attempt to give the Cities a chance to "abuse" their employees like Private sector companies can now. It is abuse. AK had no strike in 06, they had a LOCKOUT. What really pisses me off is that knot-heads like you FORCED arbitration on Public Unions 30 years ago so they  would have to let an arbiter decide what is fair and NOW those same knot-heads are mad because the Arbiters are FAIR. You don't know squat about SB5 except what Rush told you to think.

Case in point....research. Geez. You want no part of a Mill, or a House Fire, or a Crackhead with a gun, but you are mad because they make more money than you. If you have the credentials you have suggested, then apply at AK. I bet you could get a Shift Managers job making about 70-80k and you would get to work all the Holidays and all the Football games but you would make more.


just as I suggested...whiners and jealous.

hate to jump into the middle of this chest-thumping, HOWEVER it is a little different when you are talking about taxpayer-funded govt.employees as opposed to the private sector.

Irisner,

As a union supporter, both public and private; I believe the fairness issue comes into play when public employees have better pay and benefits than equivalent private sector jobs. Yes, I know, not too many equivalent jobs with police and fire but that is the perception now. Whether that perception is fair or even accurate isn't the issue.

The difference is that a private company pays its employees from revenues generated by the work of the employees. That is not the case in public sector employees. Police and fire do not generate revenue; the fees charged are to offset the cost; they do not pay for the departments. When you have citizens who pay taxes and work in private sector jobs, their job is dependent on their labor bringing in more revenues than it costs their company. If you're not a profitable employee, you get shown the door!!! That is not a consideration for a public employee who is usually shown the door only when they violate policy or regulations.

One other thing and this is really a general comment: there is no reason for the personal characterizations! I know that this forum brings up issues that people are passionate about but that does not excuse name calling and character assasinations; that only weakens your argument, imo. The most difficult thing to do is to step back and try to look through the eyes of the other person; you don't have to agree with them but trying to see the other point of view provides a perspective that you haven't thought about and many times makes it easier to see your own point of view clearer. I'm always willing to listen right up to the point when personal insults and name calling starts. When that happens, (imo) you've just lost your argument!!!

With all due respect, all arguments offered are indicative of how the average American (my sweet, wonderful Parents included) have been brainwashed by the Media. All of what you both have said mean nothing. If there is an inequity? then what is the root cause? Do you all believe that the Arbitrators are corrupt? In the Unions' pockets? What is the reason?

The reason is that the Private Sector has been able to be grossly unfair. More of the same evil, is that what you all want? there is NO other reason than that to support SB5. NO reason. Unless you DO think the arbiters are corrupt, then you have NO argument for that mentality.

As to Bill....Duh! that is part of collective bargaining. When AK was booming in the late 90, the salaried people were getting HUGE bonuses. The Union ONLY got what was Contractually required. Again, sorry to say, it is whining. "Wha, Wha, I want to ignore how great it is to be Salary when times are good, but I want to whine when the bad times get in my pocket". Give me break!  Get a Union job then Bill.

I must also say that name calling is in poor taste, but unfortunately most of the nonsensical views expressed on this site are just as bad in regards to taste as my comments. Most of you are so blinded you don't see that, but it is true. this issue is just that. wanting to take away someone's rights because you want to save a dime or you are jealous. Bad Taste!

I feel like some anti Nazi German in the 1930s, trying so hard to convince you all that Adolf is not so great.

Sad commentary for our Nation. The real tragedy is that the same people that are for taking Union rights away from first responders think it is terrible to take away a few more dollars from some Hedge Fund manager paying 15% in FIT every year. Disgusting.

lrisner wrote: Oh., yea Vet. I meant to ask. Why do you think you know more about what is fair in this situation than does some Labor Lawyer (arbitrator) compelled by Federal Law to be fair and unbiased?Just who do you think you are?Stop watching so much FOX News. You will be a more well rounded person if you make the change.

Irisner...

To let you know the facts, I am a registered Democrat. Hell, even had the union endorsements when I ran for office years ago. Went down on Rt. 4 to a union hall and did the old union sponsorship thing. They pledged support as they were told to do because I was a Democrat, not because they believed what I was all about. I didn't even talk to them and got their support that night. How shallow is that? In general, I do not like the Republican party as I think it represents big business, takes management's side on things and has traditionally relied on the war machine to stimulate the economy while it was getting people killed. I don't like the Democrats because they sponsor some greedy unions and want to give our hard earned money to social programs that are mismanaged, have people who have qualified who are scum and are abusing the system, bilking the taxpayers and the Dems want to give rights to illegals. Don't like Obama for that and I voted for the guy. Doubt that will happen again. Don't like any of the Repubs either. I don't watch FOX News as it is as slanted as CNN and MSNBC are on the Democratic side. Personally, I think both sides are full of it nowadays. There are no good choices for any of us, IMO. No, Irisner, my comments are my own and I do not side with either the Governor nor the union on SB5. My comments are my own and not enticed by FOX, CNN, MSNBC, the Governor, etc. It is just what I have seen over the last 43 years in the work place and the differences in what the union folks have received in wages and bennies and what us non-union folks have received. It have been very skewed to say the least and I'd like to see some balance for a change.

As for your reply on my Escalade comment.......I live right across from the Oaks. I know for a fact there is a retired Armco floor worker...IE...non-mangement/ex-union person who lives among the high rollers who occupy the Oaks. (I live in one of the grass huts that surround the Oaks just over the moats). He has an Escalade and a bass boat. I know the guy. It took no more skill to do his job than it takes to do mine, yet he is well above me in standard of living for a comparably-skilled job. Difference between the union shops and non-union. THAT'S WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT FOR ME WITH SB5 AND IN OUR DISCUSSION HERE. NOT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR COMPARABLE WORK AND PAYING YOUR OWN WAY ON BENNIES. Public sector jobs, by not paying their fair share of premiums for bennies, have gotten a free ride at the expense of taxpayers like myself, who must pay more from our paychecks to help our employers afford the ever-increasing costs of healthcare AND, adding insult to injury, having to help pay for the public union folks bennies all these years. Call it jealousy, call it looking for fairness, call it anything you wish. Just want it to be even-up, that's all.


Who do I think I am? I'm a working guy who pays taxes, wants some fairness and the biggest bang for my tax bucks, that's all. The labor lawyer just interprets the law. He knows what is in the books. If I read the negotiation laws, I would know as much as the frikkin' labor lawyer. What's your point?

Well-rounded?......only around the mid section bud. Got alot of flaws.....but then, so do you.

Irisner states...

"Most of you are so blinded you don't see that, but it is true. this issue is just that. wanting to take away someone's rights because you want to save a dime or you are jealous".

YOU FORGET, BUD, IT'S OUR DIME FOR THE PUBLIC UNION PEOPLE AND WE HAVE A RIGHT TO WANT TO SAVE IT. WE....WE ARE FOOTING THE SALARIES, THE BENNIES AND THE VERY EXISTENCE OF PUBLIC UNION PEOPLE. WE ARE PAYING THE COST TO BE THE BOSS. YOU CAN BITCH IF YOU'RE PAYING THE WAY. JEALOUS.....HELL YES. WE HAVE BEEN WANTING SOME OF THAT GRAVY FOR YEARS.



The real tragedy is that the same people that are for taking Union rights away from first responders think it is terrible to take away a few more dollars from some Hedge Fund manager paying 15% in FIT every year. Disgusting.

NO, THE REAL TRAGEDY IS THAT YOU ARE INTENTIONALLY MIS-INTERPRETING WHAT WE WANT. WE WANT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. WE WANT THE UNION DEMANDS AT THE NEG. TABLE (by the way, we non-union folks don't have a negotiation table- we take what they offer us and we like it or tough cookies and the raise is not automatic, it is by merit) TO BE TEMPERED IF OUT OF CONTROL AND NOT CONDUSIVE TO THE ECONOMIC TIMES AND NOT BREAK THE BANK IN THE CITY AND BURDEN THE TAXPAYERS EVEN MORE. WE WANT THE PUBLIC UNIONS TO PAY MORE OF THEIR FAIR SHARE FROM THE SALARIES THAT WE....WE HAVE PROVIDED THEM. AGAIN, WE ARE PAYING AND THAT GIVES US A RIGHT TO HAVE A SAYSO IN HOW ALL OF THIS GOES DOWN. PRIVATE UNIONS.....DIFFERENT STORY. TIMES HAVE CHANGED. THE UNIONS HAVEN'T BEEN WILLING TO CHANGE WITH THOSE TIMES. THE WORKPLACE HAS CHANGED TO 2012. THE UNIONS STILL WANT TO HOLD ONTO THE 1930's WORKPLACE MENTALITY. CATCH UP.....EVERYONE IS MAKING CONCESSIONS JUST TO KEEP THEIR COMPANY AFLOAT AND HOLD ON TO THEIR JOB NOWADAYS. WELCOME TO OUR WORLD.

Irisner...

"First...who cares what someone else pays for "bennies"? Total compensation is all that matters.At AK/Armco, they waived a raise one year to get a better Pension plan. Is it any of YOUR business HOW someone chooses to be compensated? NO it is not"

IT CERTAINLY IS IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A PUBLIC UNION JOB. IT IS NOT IF A PRIVATE COMPANY UNION. I CARE WHAT SOMEONE ELSE PAYS FOR BENNIES IF A PUBLIC UNION EMPLOYEE. IF THEY PAY MORE, I PAY LESS IN TAXES TO FOOT THE BILL FOR THEIR HEATHCARE, DENTAL AND VISION BENNIES.

"Clearly, your Escalade comment proves you know nothing about AK pay. Working shift work and in a bad environment, one will make about 50k-60 at AK. That is working the Christmas and Thankgiving and thru most of the Football Games your son might have. That is not excessive. If your nieghbor has the things it because they LIVE (much overtime) at AK or more than likely have a hard working Spouse in serious job"

I DIDN'T SAY HE USED THE BOAT. SITS MOST OF THE TIME COVERED UP IN THE DRIVEWAY. YOU'RE RIGHT, HE WORKED ALOT OF OVERTIME....NO TIME TO ENJOY THE THINGS HE BOUGHT. (WHAT'S THE POINT IN OWNING THEM?) HIS WIFE CERTAINLY USED AND ENJOYED THE ESCALADE THOUGH. OH. I KNOW A THING OR TWO ABOUT AK PAY. JUST BECAUSE I DON'T WORK THERE, DOESN'T MEAN I'M DETACHED FROM KNOWING WHAT GOES ON.

"Concessions? That is entirely up to the Union. If the workers choose to make less so that all current employees can stay, that is up them. Just because YOU want more services that you want to pay for doesn't mean someone else should have to work for less.To act like they are greedy just shows me YOU are greedy"

AGAIN IRISNER, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A PRIVATE UNION, YOU ARE CORRECT. IF A PUBLIC UNION, THEN WE ALL HAVE A RIGHT TO STICK OUR NOSE IN THEIR BUSINESS. AS I HAVE ALREADY MENTIONED, IF WE ARE PAYING FOR THEIR SERVICES, WE SHOULD HAVE A SAY IN HOW IT WILL BE.

"SB5 is an attempt to give the Cities a chance to "abuse" their employees like Private sector companies can now. It is abuse"

SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE TUNNEL-VISIONED UNION SUPPORTER. AN "ATTEMPT TO ABUSE" AS YOU SAY......OR......HOW ABOUT, THESE ARE TOUGH ECONOMIC TIMES AND ALL CITIES ARE HAVING A HARD TIME GENERATING REVENUE TO OPERATE. THEY, LIKE AVERAGE HOUSEHOLDS, HAVE TO WATCH THEIR SPENDING AND MUST CUT BACK ON THINGS THEY ARE ACCUSTOMED TO HAVING IN MORE PROSPEROUS ECONOMIC TIMES. THEY ARE ASKING FOR CUTS IN EVERY AREA OF THE BUDGET THEY CAN AND YET, STILL FUNCTION AT A MINIMAL LEVEL.

"What really pisses me off is that knot-heads like you FORCED arbitration on Public Unions 30 years ago so they would have to let an arbiter decide what is fair and NOW those same knot-heads are mad because the Arbiters are FAIR. You don't know squat about SB5 except what Rush told you to think"

OH GOD, IF ONLY YOU KNEW HOW I HATE RUSH (LIMBAUGH I ASSUME YOU ARE REFERRING TO) HATE/DESPISE/LOATH THE MAN. IRISNER, 30 YEARS AGO THIS "KNOT-HEAD" COULD HAVE CARED LESS ABOUT WHAT THE UNIONS WERE DOING. LIKE ANY YOUNG PERSON, I WAS WRAPPED UP IN MY OWN LITTLE WORLD, OBLIVIOUS TO WHAT WAS GOING ON AROUND ME. YOU PAY MORE ATTENTION TO YOUR SURROUNDINGS WHEN YOU GET OLDER IMO. OH, AND YES, I DO KNOW SQUAT ABOUT SB5.



"Case in point....research. Geez. You want no part of a Mill, or a House Fire, or a Crackhead with a gun, but you are mad because they make more money than you. If you have the credentials you have suggested, then apply at AK. I bet you could get a Shift Managers job making about 70-80k and you would get to work all the Holidays and all the Football games but you would make more"

NOW TO PROVE THAT YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW WHO YOU'RE TALKING TO. NOT ALL OF MY 43 YEARS HAS BEEN IN RESEARCH. I SPENT 12 YEARS RUNNING AN EXTRUDER ON THE FLOOR, WORKING ROTATING SHIFTS IN A FACTORY. SPENT 3 YEARS ON PERMANENT MIDNIGHTS FEELING CRAPPY THE WHOLE TIME. SPENT 3 YEARS ON 2ND SHIFT RUNNING A FORKLIFT. YEAH, I'VE WORKED THE FACTORY SCENE. HASN'T ALL BEEN IN A NICE TEMP-CONTROLLED LAB. I'VE PUT MY TIME IN IN THE SAME ENVIRONMENT AS THE AK FOLKS ARE IN INCLUDING WORKING HOLIDAYS WHEN THE PRODUCTION SCHEDULE WARRANTED IT. WORKED 12 ON -2 OFF EVERY SUMMER FOR 7 SUMMERS WAY BACK WHEN. WORKED 35 STRAIGHT DAYS AT NEATON AUTO DURING ISO 9002 PREPARATION IN THE 90'S. (THE WORKERS ARE VERY WELL COMPENSATED FOR THE HOLIDAY PAY AT AK, BY THE WAY- VERY WELL COMPENSATED) RESEARCH/LAB WORK CAME AT INTERVALS IN THE 60'S/70'S/ 80'S/ 90'S TO CURRENT.


"just as I suggested...whiners and jealous"

WHINERS.....NO......JEALOUS......YES





HEY! NICE TALKING TO YOU. I ENJOY DEBATING THIS TOPIC.

Am I right and you all wrong? YES. You know why? Because on this CONSERVATIVE site, I am the radical. Guess what? there are many LIBERAL sites where I am CALLED.....the Radical! 

So it seems that being in the middle makes me right, or at least close to it. Once again, I hear NOTHING but complaining. That is exactly why I don't care to be civil. When all I hear is bitching and jealousy, with NO rational argument (saying it is Public money changes NOTHING! GOD, that is a stupid argument) supporting the anti First responder attitudes.

Just why does Public money make ANY difference what is or is not fair and reasonable. NOT one of you have suggested that Middletown's finest make more than the average for the positions they have. That would be a RATIONAL argument if one of you made it. None of you have. All I have heard is "I don;t want to pay" " I am jealous". Get over it.

Tony...I didn't say that disagreeing with me made someone a Nazi. I was simply making the point that what is popular is NOT always the right or even non-evil opinion. That is all. The minority opinion has many times in History proven to be the right opinion over time.  If this were 1840, I would be considered a nut case for being against slavery. If I phrased it poorly, I apologize.

Vet, i don't know what to say to you. I mentioned TOTAL COMPENSATION and you still are ranting about Bens. Just put me on ignore, OK. I doubt you and I can even scream at each and do any good.

Spider, I don't disagree with what you said. I know we have problems. I also know that creating an underclass to do the Municipal work is not the answer. Unfortunately until we stop the nonesense and have serious discussions, we won't find the answer. I think Josh is a good kid, but misguided. I do HOWEVER, agree with his infrastructure funding Idea. We do have to stop under funding Infrastructure and setting it aside is plausible answer. It will leave less for staffing, but we just have to do what ever to deal with that. Layoffs or concessions, the Unions will have to decide. Does that seem to be strange talk from a Union nut case? Wow! Maybe I am someone just playing the middle!

I am a rare breed this days. A principled person who's positions follow the information and NOT self interest.

That is the root of the problem! The ME generation LIVES.

Irisner,

You a radical? That is hysterically hilarious!!! You are someone who refuses to even recognize the problem hence becoming the problem yourself. I explained above to you why getting paid with tax dollars is different than an occupation in the private sector but the only acknowledgement was to apologize for the Nazi reference. Let see if I can explain this to you again; not that I think that you'll take the time to read and try to understand it.

A worker for a private enterprise generates revenue through his work. That worker must generate more revenue than they are paid in compensation for the labor if they want to keep the job. That counts wages and benefits.

A public servant is not measured by the amount of revenue generated but the effectiveness, efficiency and benefit that their service provides the community. It is the community (all of us) that pays the wages and benefits for public servants.

It is not fair or reasonable for public servants to have a compensation package that deprives the taxpayer of other necessary services. IMO, police and fire should be the highest paid public employees because they provide the most essential services to the community. I don't think there is anyone on this forum who would disagree with that. That doesn't mean; however, that their aren't other necessary services that the community wants and expects for their tax dollar. That is where the fairness argument comes into play. When the compensation package is the highest in the area, taxpayers begin to wonder what they are getting for the money. When other communities are getting the same services for less, they wonder why.

I wouldn't want the job of police or fire. I commend and applaud your service. There will always be a need for these services. Just don't mistake the need for the services with the idea that those services can't be provided by someone else who would be willing to do them for less compensation. You've seen the trend in privatization of government services; (btw, one of the worst ideas, ever!!!) that snowball is picking up steam thanks to bought and paid for politicians. These a**holes are out to make government a "for-profit" enterprise and they'll get their way if they can convince the public that the public service unions are the villains. If that ever happens, you can kiss freedom and democracy goodbye!!!

I don't know what your job is but I certainly hope that our paths never cross. That would mean that I'm neither being arrested or in need of emergency medical services!!! As for being a radical, you barely break the "moderate" label. A true radical would be organizing protests and demonstrations against the corruption that is going on in Middletown. All you've done is try to justify why you deserve what you're getting. Nothing "radical" about that.

Speaking of efficiencies TonyB, I was driving last night about 8:30 PM through Middletown coming from the airport when the ice rain came. I had on 700 am, and they were talking about how Cincinnati's road crews had taken advantage of the dry weather, and put salt (brine) down covering 99.9% of the roads by Wednesday. Well, as I was driving last night, I saw Middletown's salt trucks on all major roads, and today, the same.

When one speaks of efficiencies, using this example, how much overtime did Middletown pay when it could have put salt down when it was 20 degrees all week, than wait until Friday night and Saturday, all overtime evenings and weekends, for the city workers? That's not quite efficiency, and I was really taken by the intelligence of Cincinnati Public Works to plan ahead, while Middletown, as usual, reacted afterwards. I'm not a chemical engineer or an expert on thermal dynamics, but it made alot of sense to me. What was Dave Duritsch doing? Planning for the next sinkhole, or planning for an ice storm, and getting trucks out two days in advance so NO overtime would have to be paid. Just a thought when I heard how SMART Cincinnati was, in comparison to the reactive nature of the city of Middletown. 

Per-salting is a JOKE! Let those that are dumb enough to get up at 3:30am handle the efficient way of putting your salt down. 2-3/10 ths of ice sucks at 7am, luckily it was a Sat.