sign ordinance issues?

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   lol Ms.G--you are spending too much time with Marty Koehler.
We debated the sign ordinance throroughly before it was approved.
The city was very selective in enforcing this ordinance, targeting small businesses while ignoring violations from the major retailers and the real estate sector.

I toured the city wirh Lauren Pack, who then wrote a MJ piece on the ordinance and enforcement breaches.

We have virtually no businesses to draw from outside our city for holiday shopping.
Local retail outlets are struggling like never before, and need every tool available to attract sales. Now is hardly the time to nitpick and harass any business entities. As always, Mr.Koeler seems to prefer empy storefronts with huge FOR SALE OR RENT signs in their windows over signage mentioning sale opportunities and bargains.

The signage issue is a very minor part of our community woes, and the general public has NEVER supported the restrictions(they were all Commission/admin originated).  NOT ONE citizen or business owner spoke in favor of this ordinance at it's final reading.

When Ms.Mejias-Yancey left the city, enforcement ended completely. If this on/off inconsistency is to begin again, hopefully Mr.Koehler will have no involvement whatsoever.

You want to deal with blight and bad image?

Clean up the neighborhoods.
De-construct the brownfield areas that remain for decades.
Clean up the riverfront.
Make the Towne Mall functional and not an embarrassing eyesore.
Tear down Lone Star.
Concentrate on filling empty storefronts that consume every area of our city(and quit worrying about minor signage in existing businesses owned by citizens who pay personal and business taxes).
Hire a REAL Economic Development person this time and document their successes.

I have high hopes for our current city manager.
I don't like seeing her ideas for change shot down by Council, and I shudder at seeing her slowly shift over to the Dark Siders.

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spiderjohn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749	Post Options Post Reply Quote spiderjohn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: sign ordinance issues? Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 10:33am
	lol Ms.G--you are spending too much time with Marty Koehler. We debated the sign ordinance throroughly before it was approved. The city was very selective in enforcing this ordinance, targeting small businesses while ignoring violations from the major retailers and the real estate sector. I toured the city wirh Lauren Pack, who then wrote a MJ piece on the ordinance and enforcement breaches. We have virtually no businesses to draw from outside our city for holiday shopping. Local retail outlets are struggling like never before, and need every tool available to attract sales. Now is hardly the time to nitpick and harass any business entities. As always, Mr.Koeler seems to prefer empy storefronts with huge FOR SALE OR RENT signs in their windows over signage mentioning sale opportunities and bargains. The signage issue is a very minor part of our community woes, and the general public has NEVER supported the restrictions(they were all Commission/admin originated). NOT ONE citizen or business owner spoke in favor of this ordinance at it's final reading. When Ms.Mejias-Yancey left the city, enforcement ended completely. If this on/off inconsistency is to begin again, hopefully Mr.Koehler will have no involvement whatsoever. You want to deal with blight and bad image? Clean up the neighborhoods. De-construct the brownfield areas that remain for decades. Clean up the riverfront. Make the Towne Mall functional and not an embarrassing eyesore. Tear down Lone Star. Concentrate on filling empty storefronts that consume every area of our city(and quit worrying about minor signage in existing businesses owned by citizens who pay personal and business taxes). Hire a REAL Economic Development person this time and document their successes. I have high hopes for our current city manager. I don't like seeing her ideas for change shot down by Council, and I shudder at seeing her slowly shift over to the Dark Siders.

Pacman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612	Post Options Post Reply Quote Pacman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 11:36am
	Spider this is the lets look like we are doing something when we really aren't because we can't afford to do anything. Every business in Middletown is in Survival Mode and we get this. This morning I come to work and the same large sign from the windstorm, IN SEPTEMBER, is laying on the same sidewalk for the last going on 3 months. I'd pick it up except it's to big for my car. The same guardrail at Elliott and Grand looks like a freight train ran into it for the last year. Then while I am sitting at the light I get to see a gentleman walk out of the lovely outhouse at the entrance to Jacot Park zipping up his pants, this is not the first time I have watched this lovely act early in the morning. And here we are worried about signs and busiensses that are just trying to survive. Sometimes I just don't get it with Middletown.

arwendt Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List MUSA Official Joined: May 17 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 588	Post Options Post Reply Quote arwendt Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 11:48am
	"The signage issue is a very minor part of our community woes" I agree. But in another sense I think it is a classic example of some very misguided policies from our "city hall".
	“Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my Words of Freedom website.

Middletown News Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Apr 29 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1100	Post Options Post Reply Quote Middletown News Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 12:23pm
	Its really not a minor issue. Since it is enforced unevenly, some people get away with illegal signs, others don't. The big losers in all this are the restaurants and retailers. Some signage should be allowed. For example, a grocery story ought to be able to put up Milk sales banners.
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spiderjohn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749	Post Options Post Reply Quote spiderjohn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 2:23pm
	Mr.Haller--I recieved a notice for doing exactly what you mention, except it was for Pepsi Cola and done professionally on Pepsi-created professional material. Yet Wal Mart and Meijers were permitted to do absolutely anything thay wanted. I pointed this out, and Mr.Koehler didn't like that very much. Did city then evenly enforce the ordinance? Absolutely not. As the ordinance reads: I(or you or anyone) could fill your parking lot/yard/property with old broken refrigerators, autos and even junk. You could take a ragged piece of cardboard and write on it with crayon, and THAT WOULD BE LEGAL. Advertising milk or soft drinks in a professional manner is NOT PERMITTED because the product is for sale INSIDE the building(a legal licensed business). Then-Mayor Sonny Hill(RIP) thought this legislation was very anti-small business, and wondered aloud(at Commission during the public hearing) why everry business owner and citizen wasn't there to protest this uneven legislation. Enforcement since has become a joke. Why make legislation if you don't intend to enforce it? It inly confuses the public, and a confused public is not a happy public. People like rules when they are fair and evenly enforced.

Middletown News Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Apr 29 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1100	Post Options Post Reply Quote Middletown News Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 2:37pm
	You are living proof spiderjohn that this legislation in particular, has some unintended consequences. Hurting the smallest businesses, while helping larger ones. I know we had to take down our 50' ComputerServiceNow.com banner. It virually stopped our walk-in business cold.
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spiderjohn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749	Post Options Post Reply Quote spiderjohn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 25 2008 at 3:38pm
	With the messes going on in your neighborhood, and flagrant violations everywhere, I would put the banner back immediately(actually long ago), pending your landlord's approval. We all need the business, and have to do what we have to do. I still use small banners on my property. Try it again--you would be warned and not cited. And that might take a complaint to bring action. No complaints--no action.

spiderjohn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749	Post Options Post Reply Quote spiderjohn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 9:12am
	actually Mr.Haller--restricting yours and my options as mentioned above was the specific intent of Mr.Koehler's thinking. He did not want those type of professional signs/banners used at all. He wanted expensive permanent signage instead, freezing out the small business options. The old "yellow Signs" are VERY helpful to draw business, but were ruled out. As usual, the city's enforcement was very slanted against west end small businesses, while the major chains and east end entities were unchallenged. Then it deteriorated to no regulation at all. During the public hearing regarding real estate signage exemptions, I requested the definition seperating real estate business from retail entities. Commission member Schiavone made a motion to table the hearing until such clarification could be given by the legal dept. Instead of providing such clarification and proceeding with the proper reading procedure, the legislation quietly returned next as an EMERGENCY, and was quickly passed without any further discussion.

John Beagle Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List MUSA Official Joined: Apr 23 2007 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1855	Post Options Post Reply Quote John Beagle Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 9:21am
	Sure the city does indeed look better with the clutter gone. But have we gone too far? Looks like their should be modifications to make it a more business friendly law.
	John Beagle Middletown USA News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio.

Middletown News Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Apr 29 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1100	Post Options Post Reply Quote Middletown News Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 9:40am
	Well, we have to follow the rules. So for now, no banners, less advertising, less business, less payroll tax revenue, less sales tax. Do we need change in Middletown too? Calling Obama
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Mike_Presta Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483	Post Options Post Reply Quote Mike_Presta Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 11:00am
	Schiavonne??? Banners??? Mr. Schiavonne, who actually voted FOR the sign ordinance, has been a flagrant violator of it ever since he opened his place behind White Castle! He had at temporary "now open" sign (white, not yellow) for months inside the public right-of-way (probably over 400 feet from the store). He currently has a "temporary" banner and tacky lights out in front on his "patio dining area"!!! He was nearly finished with the remodeling before he bothered to get a building permit, and even then the "value" of the project was listed at around $18K, even though he had gotten a "loan" from the TAXPAYERS for nearly three times that amount!!! PS: Also, they certainly did enforce the sign ordinance in the east end! They made a motel east of I-75 take down a banner advertising a special room rate. They made an east end car dealer remove the prices of the cars from the windshields of the cars (and this was while they were widening the road right in front of the dealership, and there was sand, gravel, concrete sewer pipe, and the like piled so high that you could barely even see the cars.)

Pacman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612	Post Options Post Reply Quote Pacman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 5:27pm
	Mike, I had to chuckle on the way home tonight....as I drive down Grand lo and behold I come upon several little signs on the side of the road advertising BBQ Junction.

Mike_Presta Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483	Post Options Post Reply Quote Mike_Presta Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 26 2008 at 7:33pm
	One would think that our elected leaders would set a better example for the youth of Middletown than to be a blatant scofflaw.

Vivian Moon Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187	Post Options Post Reply Quote Vivian Moon Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 27 2008 at 6:40am
	Spider Denny Lumber Company has had numerous large supplier banners posted on the Midletown Cemetery fence for years. Isn't that the same thing? It's posted outside of their business and on City owned property.

spiderjohn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749	Post Options Post Reply Quote spiderjohn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 27 2008 at 6:51am
	Hey Ms.Moon Denny Lumber is a well-respected quality local staple. They run a clean operation and just do what is sensible. Oury city admin is the group that is consistently inconsistent.

Vivian Moon Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187	Post Options Post Reply Quote Vivian Moon Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 27 2008 at 8:02am
	Spider I'm with you on this issue. I don't have a problem with the Denny signs. But like you said...Why some businesses and not others? I think their time would be better spent cleaning up the local neighborhoods.

Pacman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612	Post Options Post Reply Quote Pacman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 27 2008 at 8:08am
	Personally I don't see any problem with any business that places a banner on their property as long as it is maintained and professionally done and not overly flamboyant. It is these little signs that dot the roadside that need to be done away with. When Public Works drives by one pick it up and toss it. I see them drive by them all day long. As Vivian said I can think of a hell of a lot more that needs to be done in the city than worrying about a banner hanging on the side of a building or a car dealer that advertises the price of his cars in the window, that is getting to the point of being ridicules. While we are talking about signs what about the ones I have seen for Light up Middletown.......

VietVet Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008	Post Options Post Reply Quote VietVet Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 30 2008 at 10:38am
	Pacman- I view these "Barbeque Junction" signs and housing development signs in the same category as political signs. Isn't there a law in place for the timely removal of political signs in public right-of- ways after an election? If so, then why not business signs in a public right-of-way? Any laws for that? If so, isn't Davy in violation and shouldn't his worshipness be fined OR if allowed, shouldn't all businesses be allowed to place signs up and down Route 122, so that we can really gunk up the area?

Pacman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612	Post Options Post Reply Quote Pacman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Nov 30 2008 at 11:10am
	You are right Vet that is why I said when Public Works drives by one pick it up and toss it....as in the dump.

VietVet Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008	Post Options Post Reply Quote VietVet Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec 01 2008 at 7:12am
	Article today saying Ms. Gilleland wants to step up sign enforcement.Businessess can't paint their windows more than 25% of the way with ads. Too many signs- as mentioned before, wonder if the inspection boys will make Schiavone/developers remove their signs along 122? Will be interesting to see if they're gone soon.

John Beagle Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List MUSA Official Joined: Apr 23 2007 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1855	Post Options Post Reply Quote John Beagle Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec 01 2008 at 11:45am
	Perhaps the city also ought to have a banner hotline, much like the Pothole Hotline. Full Statement from Ms. Gilleland: Sign Code Enforcement To the extent possible, with our limited inspection staff, we are stepping up sign code enforcement and attempting to take care of some of the blighting influences in our business community in terms of signage. While businesses need signs to attract customers, too many signs can have the opposite effect. In addition, some businesses paint their entire windows with signage, when codes permit only 25% of the window to be consumed with signage. A balance of signage in the community will have a positive impact. Source: Weekly Update to City Council November 24, 2008
	John Beagle Middletown USA News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio.

spiderjohn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749	Post Options Post Reply Quote spiderjohn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec 01 2008 at 1:38pm
	Sure--a new dept. to staff and fund, plus revenue from subsequent fines/penalties/fees. Sign code enforcement A new home for soon to be displaced city workers(health dept.employees?)

tomahawk35 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Resident Joined: Nov 18 2008 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 223	Post Options Post Reply Quote tomahawk35 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec 01 2008 at 11:13pm
	Can I get on the new committee because I know they will need more input. Ha ha

Mike_Presta Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483	Post Options Post Reply Quote Mike_Presta Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 5:53am
	Will the first place to be inspected be "Honest Dave's" place? Does he have a building permit for the outdoor dining area? I don't recall this variance going before the zoning board.

spiderjohn Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749	Post Options Post Reply Quote spiderjohn Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 9:22am
	Hey Mike--how about meeting me at the BBQ Junction for dinner? Maybe a few others from here can join to support our local businesses!