SB 5 Petition Signatures

Today's Journal.....

County to start counting signatures to repeal SB 5

HAMILTON — Butler County Board of Elections staff will put in overtime this week and next to verify the 22,000 signatures on the petitions to repeal Senate Bill 5.

“It affects a whole lot of people,” said Tony Fink, vice president of IAFF Middletown Firefighters Local 336. “You want every individual teacher, every individual firefighter, every individual policeman to negotiate their own salary.”

YES TONY FINK....WE WANT ALL OF YOU TO NEGOTIATE YOUR SALARY BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE, YOUR PAST CONTRIBUTIONS, YOUR VALUE TO THE DEPARTMENT,A MERIT SYSTEM MEASURING YOUR PERFORMANCE AND THE MANY OTHER THINGS THAT DETERMINE ONE'S SALARY IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR. WE DO NOT WANT CONTRACTS SIGNED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR EMPLOYER (THE CITY-IE. THE TAXPAYER) YEARS IN ADVANCE FOR WORK THAT WILL BE ACCOMPLISHED IN THE FUTURE. YOU GET PAID FOR WORK ALREADY DONE, NOT PROPOSED WORK IN THE FUTURE. IS TONY'S THINKING HERE TYPICAL UNION REASONING? IF SO, I WOULD SUSPECT NOT IN TUNE WITH THE MAJORITY OF THE WORKING WORLD.

With more than fives times the required signatures collected, the ballot initiative likely will make it on the November ballot. If it does and the legislation is repealed, Hamilton Classroom Teachers Association President Debi Gann said that will send a loud message to Kasich and the Ohio General Assembly.

“He is basically blaming public employees for a recession we didn’t create,” she said. “I don’t think he thought about all those people that provide those services of how important we are to the community.”

DEBI GANN.....RECESSION OR NOT, KASICH OR NOT, COLLECTIVE BARGAINING, WHERE UNION NEGOTIATIONS PRODUCE CONTRACTS YEARS IN ADVANCE WITH PAY RAISES PRE-DETERMINED FOR WORK THAT HASN'T BEEN ACCOMPLISHED AS YET, NO MERIT SYSTEM IN PLACE TO EVALUATE THE JOB PUBLIC EMPLOYEES ARE DOING, STEP PAY INCREASES IN BETWEEN THE REGULAR YEARLY INCREASE GIVING THE PUBLIC WORKER ESSENTIALLY TWO RAISES EACH YEAR, PAYING LESS FROM YOUR PAYCHECK FOR BENEFITS WHILE THE TAXPAYER PAYS THE DIFFERENCE FOR YOU IN PREMIUMS. AND THAT SAME TAXPAYER IS BEING ASKED TO PAY MORE FROM THEIR PAYCHECK TO HELP THEIR PRIVATE EMPLOYER OUT WITH THE COSTS, RECEIVING A DOUBLE WHAMMY FROM THE PAYCHECK IN PAYROLL TAXES FOR YOUR COSTS AS WELL AS ADDITIONAL COSTS TO THEM. ALL OF THIS, IS ERODING THE PRIVATE SECTOR PAYCHECK TO THE POINT OF BEING BROKE FROM PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK. TIME YOU AND YOUR UNION BUDDIES STARTED PAYING YOUR FAIR SHARE ON BENEFIT COSTS AND RETIREMENT FOR YOURSELF AND STOP BLEEDING THE NON-UNION WORKERS TO DEATH. YOU AND YOUR FELLOW PUBLIC WORKERS HAVE SIMPLY BECOME TOO EXPENSIVE TO SUPPORT WITH YOUR DEMANDS OVER THE YEARS, AS OUR NON-UNION PAYCHECKS HAVE SHRUNKEN IN BUYING POWER OVER THE YEARS. THE SH-- HAS NOW HIT THE FAN.....YOUR WORLD IS CHANGING.....AND YOU DON'T LIKE IT. THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM.

Funny thing is the union will lose membership if SB5 recinded. What do I mean they will lose membership? Well, there is only so much money. Either cut benefits and or pay or cut membership.

SB5 is an attempt to control costs and keep more jobs in the long run. I know many folks have good intentions about SB5 but they are wrong about it. Killing SB5 will kill more private union jobs.

Wake up teachers, police and fire union workers. You are in a lose or lose even more situation. Your choice.

Today's Journal....

Teachers' union president: SB 5 a step back in time

HAMILTON — Debra Gann has been a teacher for 27 years, but she aspired to the profession as a 12-year-old.

SB5 is aimed at teachers, firefighters and police officers because it takes away their right to bargain many issues, including working conditions and consequently the conditions in which children learn, Gann said.

THIS IS BULL GANN. YOUR REASONS ARE LAME. THE WORKING CONDITIONS OF TODAY ARE INFINITELY BETTER THAN THEY WERE BACK WHEN UNIONS NEEDED COLLECTIVE BARGAINING TO NEGOTIATE. YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO HOLD ON TO THE GRAVY TRAIN YOU PEOPLE HAVE BEEN RIDING FOR DECADES. IT IS TIME TO START PAYING YOUR FAIR SHARE OF THE BENEFIT COSTS LIKE WE PRIVATE INDUSTRY PEOPLE MUST DO NOWADAYS, AND IT IS TIME TO START PAYING MORE INTO YOUR DAM RETIREMENT. STOP BREAKING THE BACKS OF THE TAXPAYERS WHO ARE FUNDING YOUR PERKS. FOR EXAMPLE....YOU ARE PAYING ~ 9% INTO YOUR BENEFITS COSTS. WE HAVE BEEN PAYING 15-20% FOR YEARS NOW. HOW ABOUT YOU PEOPLE PAYING THE SAME? WE JUST WANT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD...NO MORE, NO LESS.

“It is needed to keep great teachers and get help for those who are struggling,” Gann said.

NO, STOP PROTECTING THE TEACHERS WHO ARE STRUGGLING AND DOWNSIZE THEM FOR PERFORMANCE ISSUES. PERFORMANCE ISSUE DOWNSIZING HAS BEEN HAPPENING IN THE PRIVATE WORLD FOR DECADES. IT HAS JUST NOW CAUGHT UP TO THE PUBLIC EMPLOYEES AND THEY DON'T LIKE IT. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE UNION MENTALITY. YOU WANT TO PROTECT WEAK WORKERS AND KEEP THEM FEEDING AT THE GRAVY TABLE AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE. THAT'S CRAP.


Richard Packert, a Middletown Middle School eighth-grade teacher and president of the Southwestern Ohio Education Association, said he believes SB5 and Issue 2 is a direct attack on the middle class who have negotiated fair pay and better working conditions through the collective bargaining process.

“This is a direct attack on teachers, police and firefighters,” Packert said.

BULL MANURE PACKERT! IT IS A WAY TO STOP THE OUT-OF-CONTROL DEMANDS THAT THE UNIONS HAVE WORKED UP TO IN THE LAST 4 DECADES. IT IS A WAY TO GET THE WEIGHT OF THE UNION DEMANDS OFF THE BACK OF THE CASH STRAPPED CITIES AND STATES THAT CAN NO LONGER AFFORD YOUR DEMANDS. IT IS A WAY TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD BETWEEN UNION AND NON-UNION WORKERS AS TO BENEFIT COST SHARING WITH THE EMPLOYERS, POTENTIAL UNREASONABLE HOURLY PAY DEMANDS IN BAD ECONOMIC TIMES, MORE MONETARY INPUT INTO PUBLIC WORKER RETIREMENTS BY THE PUBLIC WORKER INSTEAD OF THE TAXPAYER, AND A WAY TO STOP THE BLEEDING IN THE BUDGETS OF LOCAL, STATE AND FED GOVERNMENTS. YOUR COSTS ARE THE MAJORITY OF THE BUDGET. WE CAN'T HAVE THAT ANY LONGER.


“Everything we do is geared around the classroom and educating children. That’s what it is all about,” Packert said. “We know the bargaining process is a give and take and we understand the financial situation that the board and district are facing.”

IF YOU UNDERSTAND PACKERT, WHY DON'T YOU WANT TO CONTRIBUTE MORE TO THE COST OF MAINTAINING YOUR PUBLIC POSITION? HAVEN'T HEARD AN OFFER TO PAY MORE INTO YOUR RETIREMENT OR BENEFITS COSTS, OR OFFER TO TAKE A VOLUNTARILY PAY FREEZE. TIME TO PAY THE PIPER, TAKE YOUR LICKS LIKE WE PRIVATE INDUSTRY PEOPLE HAVE HAD TO DO SINCE THE 80's.

TonyB wrote: Vet -   Your distaste for the public unions has been well documented on this blog. I appreciate your POV but your argument seems to always come around to "be like the private sector". From what I've read, you not only do not believe the arguments of the opponents of SB5, you don't care what those arguments are. It seem that your only concern is for those workers to "get screwed" just like everybody else. I just don't understand that.   If there is any doubt that workers, workers rights and the middle class in general are the target of these type of attacks on unions and bargaining, that doubt is rapidly fading. Everything that is happening around the country is the Republican attack on working men and women at the expense of the wealthy. From the limits on unions to attacks on voter registration and voting rights to wanting to tax the poor, the wealthy have perpetrated a class war against the working class. They have the propaganda spin machine (FOX News) running all out to convince Americans to vote for their own servitude.   If these ideas are allowed to sway the day, it won't be long until the middle class will be a thing of the past and we will have nothing but the ruling class and the poor. Then you'll see rights removed by edict and the poor left to die. We've already seen and heard first hand from the Republicans how they feel about health care, capital punishment and worker rights. Let's stop this before it starts and defeat SB5!!!

TonyB....

"Your distaste for the public unions has been well documented on this blog. I appreciate your POV but your argument seems to always come around to "be like the private sector". From what I've read, you not only do not believe the arguments of the opponents of SB5, you don't care what those arguments are. It seem that your only concern is for those workers to "get screwed" just like everybody else. I just don't understand that".

TONY, I WAS RAISED IN A UNION HOUSEHOLD. GRANDPA WAS A 46 YEAR UNION MAN ON THE 4-HIGH TEMPER MILL IN WEST PROCESSING AT ARMCO. GREW UP HEARING STORIES FROM THE MILL THAT MANAGEMENT WAS NOT TO BE TRUSTED, WAS A NON-PRODUCTIVE DRAIN ON THE COMPANY AND HE TOLD ARMCO TO SHOVE THE FOREMAN'S JOB UP THEIR BEHIND WHEN IT WAS OFFERED TO HIM. HECK, I'VE EVEN GOT A TATOO ON MY LEFT UPPER ARM THAT HAS A GRIM REAPER WITH AN AXE AND THE SLOGAN "DEATH TO MANAGEMENT" YES, I WAS FIRMLY AGAINST THE ESTABLISHMENT, MANAGEMENT AND BELIEVED THE COMPANY WAS SCREWING EVERYONE BELOW MANAGEMENT. THE "LESSONS FROM GRANDPA" WERE DURING THE 60'S. THE TATOO WAS FROM THE 90'S. HOW'S THAT FOR THAT STAUNCH UNION STAND?

FAST FORWARD TO TODAY......I HAVE NEVER WORKED IN A UNION SHOP WHILE EMPLOYED BY EIGHT DIFFERENT COMPANIES OVER THE LAST 43+ YEARS. HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PRIVATE SECTOR, NEVER HAD A PUBLIC SECTOR JOB.

YOU ASKED ME TO EXPLAIN MY POSITION FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING....ALRIGHT...

I, ALONG WITH MILLIONS OF OTHER NON-UNION PRIVATE SECTOR EMPLOYEES, HAVE NEVER CAUGHT UP WITH THE UNION WORKERS, BE IT PRIVATE OR PUBLIC, AS IT PERTAINS TO BENEFITS, PAY, VACATION TIME, AND OTHER PERKS ON THE JOB. BECAUSE OF THAT, I AM FINALLY AT A POINT, AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, WHERE I SEE A NEED TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD. IF I'M GOING TO CONTRIBUTE TO PUBLIC SECTOR PERKS LIKE BENEFITS, PENSION, PAY RAISES AND PAYING FOR THEIR VACATION TIME (SOME WITH 13 WEEKS, UNHEARD OF IN NON-UNION PRIVATE SECTOR EMPLOYMENT), I WANT TO SEE THE PUBLIC WORKERS CONTRIBUTE FROM THEIR PAYCHECK (THAT I HELPED PROVIDED), TOWARD THEIR OWN PENSION, BENNIES AND VACATION (EXCESSIVE) COSTS. IT IS AWFULLY HARD TO KNOW THAT WITH EACH PAYCHECK, TAXES TAKEN FROM MY PAYCHECK, ARE BEING USED TO GO TOWARD PUBLIC SECTOR JOBS, (BE IT TEACHERS, CITY WORKERS, FIRE, COPS) WHO WILL IN TURN, LIVE ON A HIGHER SCALE THAN I AM LIVING. IT IS PURE AND SIMPLE JEALOUSY THAT I AM FOOTING THE BILL FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS WITH MORE PERKS. I AM PAYING 15-20% NOW FOR BENNY PREMIUMS FROM EACH PAYCHECK. I RECEIVE 10 DAYS OF VACATION UP TO 15 YEARS OF SERVICE. THEN IT GOES TO 15 DAYS WITH OVER 15 YEARS OF SERVICE. THE MAX. VACATION TIME IS 6 WEEKS, BUT WE'RE TALKING 35-40 YEARS OF SERVICE. AT LAST COUNT, I REMEMBER MY GRANDPA GETTING 13 WEEKS OF VACATION PER YEAR AND MOST OF THE TIME, HE SOLD THE TIME BACK TO THE COMPANY EACH YEAR.

A UNION PRODUCTION LINE JOB PAYS, WHAT, $30/HOUR OR MORE? A NON-UNION PRODUCTION JOB PAYS $10-$20/HOUR AT BEST FROM MY EXPERIENCE, EVEN AFTER ALL THESE YEARS. HELL, I STARTED IN PRODUCTION IN 1972 AT $2.75/HOUR AND WAS HAPPY TO GET THAT.

NEVER HAD SOMEONE GO TO THE "BARGAINING TABLE" FOR ME. IN A NON-UNION SHOP. EACH YEAR, YOU WENT IN TO THE BOSSES OFFICE, THEY WENT OVER YOUR PERFORMANCE EVALUATION WITH YOU, HANDED YOU A PIECE OF PAPER TELLING YOU HOW MUCH YOU WILL RECEIVE IN ADDITIONAL PAY, YOU SHOOK THEIR HAND AND LEFT. IT MAY HAVE BEEN 1% OR 3%, BUT YOU TOOK IT AS IT WASN'T "NEGOTIABLE". WILL NEVER BELIEVE THAT GIVING WORKERS A RAISE PRIOR TO WORK BEING DONE IS A GOOD IDEA. ONLY BREEDS COMPLACENCY AND A "I ALREADY KNOW MY RAISE FOR THE NEXT THREE YEARS, WHY SHOULD I TRY"..IT'S AUTOMATIC" MENTALITY. NO GOOD TONY, NO GOOD, IMO.

I BELIEVE IN THE MERIT SYSTEM ALSO. YOU CONTRIBUTE, YOU ARE REWARDED. IT FOSTERS ACCOUNTABILITY ON THE JOB. THE UNION PEOPLE HAVE LED ME TO BELIEVE THEY DON'T WANT THE MERIT SYSTEM, THEREFORE, IMO, THEY DON'T WANT A SYSTEM THAT REWARDS ON ACCOUNTABILITY AND PERFORMANCE. THEY DON'T WANT TO BE GRADED ON HOW THEY PERFORMED THEIR JOB. WHY? ARE THEY TRYING TO HIDE SOMETHING? DON'T WANT THE PUBLIC TO KNOW WHAT THEY DO TO EARN THEIR MONEY? THE PROFICIENCY TESTS ARE AN INDICTMENT AS TO THE PERFORMANCE OF THE TEACHERS AND THEIR UNION. THEY DON'T LIKE THE TESTS BECAUSE IT PAINTS A PICTURE OF HOW THEY ARE GETTING THEIR INSTRUCTIONAL MESSAGE TO THE STUDENTS AND IN MIDDLETOWN, IT AIN'T GOOD SO FAR.

IF SB5 PASSES, IT WILL LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD. IT WILL PLACE ALL PUBLIC WORKERS NOT ON A MERIT SYSTEM, ON ONE SO THE TAXPAYER HAS ACCOUNTABILITY AND CAN SEE WHAT THEY ARE GETTING FOR THEIR MONEY. SB5 WILL ALLOW THE PUBLIC SECTOR TO MOVE CLOSER TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR IN PREMIUM/RETIREMENT CONTRIBUTIONS FROM THE WORKER. IT WILL ALSO ATTEMPT TO CONTROL AN OUT OF CONTROL SITUATION WITH SOME UNION NEGOTIATIONS WITH CITIES AND STATES WHO CAN'T AFFORD THEIR DEMANDS. I WILL VOTE FOR SB5, NOT BECAUSE I HATE UNIONS. I JUST HATE THE FACT THAT THE UNIONS, OVER TIME, HAVE "DEMANDED THEMSELVES" RIGHT OUT OF AFFORDABILITY FOR THE TAXPAYER, CITIES, AND STATES. THEY HAVE GOTTEN TOO GREEDY FOR THE TIMES AND ARE TOO HIGH-PRICED TO ALLOW TO CONTINUE AT THEIR CURRENT PACE. IT IS A PARTIAL FAULT OF THE CITIES AND STATES FOR HAVING ALLOWED THE UNION REPS AT THE TABLE TO INTIMIDATE THEM AND CALL THE SHOTS. IT IS TIME FOR THE CITIES/STATES TO START SAYING NO AND PERHAPS ADOPTING NON-UNION SERVICES FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE TAXPAYER WHO IS BEING TRAMPLED TRYING TO FINANCE THIS. I DON'T BEGRUDGE ANYONE FOR FIGHTING FOR MORE MONEY OR BENNIES. I DO HAVE A PROBLEM IF THAT FIGHT STARTS BANKRUPTING THE PEOPLE THEY ARE SERVING. JMO

TonyB wrote: Bocephus,   My support for working men and women is the same as always. I AM NOT A DEMOCRAT NOR A REPUBLICAN!!! Get it straight. I think BOTH parties should be voted out. If you took the time to read what I've written in previous threads you would have figured that out by now. I've said it before and I'll say it again; WRONG IS WRONG!!! I don't care which party is "For" or "Against"; if it's wrong, it needs to be called what it is. It is wrong to disobey the laws of this country concerning immigration. If you're not supposed to be here, IMO, you have no protection under the Constitution because you are not subject to those laws. Any other consideration is secondary to the fact that you are in violation of US law simply by being here!!! You need to be deported, humanitarian reasons are a factor but are minor to the fact that you are violating the law. Besides that, why are you trying to sidetrack this issue? This is about stripping workers the very right to organize; what the hell does this have to do with immigration?!!!

Tony B says....

"I AM NOT A DEMOCRAT NOR A REPUBLICAN!!! Get it straight. I think BOTH parties should be voted out"

"I've said it before and I'll say it again; WRONG IS WRONG!!! I don't care which party is "For" or "Against"; if it's wrong, it needs to be called what it is"

Now, let's check what you said in your other post......

"Everything that is happening around the country is the Republican attack on working men and women at the expense of the wealthy"

" From the limits on unions to attacks on voter registration and voting rights to wanting to tax the poor, the wealthy have perpetrated a class war against the working class. They have the propaganda spin machine (FOX News) running all out to convince Americans to vote for their own servitude"

TonyB.....it sure "sounds" like you are on the Democratic (union) side when you look at the content of your comments above in mentioning Republicans and FOX News, which is Republican leaning news reporting. It doesn't "sound" like you are neutral in your political vision and it doesn't "appear" that you want to vote out both parties. JMO

I think it would be accurate to label you a CRUSADER for the working class/poor. Nothing wrong with that. Just disagree with your defense of the unions who seem to have gotten more than their fair share for decades. Again, JMO.

You know what the amazing part about all this debate is? I detest Boehner and the Republicans. Always have. Am a registered Democrat, never liked rich folks who throw it up to those who are not in their class, can't stand Boehner, Mitch McConnell, Rick Perry and those who would be like them. I also don't like the increasing greed coming from the Democratically sponsored unions and REALLY don't like the policies of Obama and cabinet member Solis on their stance on helping the illegals help themselves to our country. Disgusting. I won't even mention Pelosi nor Reid in this conversation. So many clowns on both sides of the aisle causing too many problems for this country.

Ms. Andrew....I stand corrected. Had forgotten or was not aware....can't remember which, that the concessions had occured. Thank you for the info. I appreciate the response.

The results from the negotiations listed in your post are certainly fair and warranted IMO, considering the situation.

Why Vet, you type too damn fast!!! I can't answer the first one and you've already got another one up!!! I just can't type that fast.

middletownscouter wrote: Bocephus, which middle class jobs are being stolen away from Americans by illegal immigrants?

Typical, the only ones exempted either cost too much to prosecute or passed the laws for everyone else to follow. It certainly does make reducing the cost by firing the most expensive worker a likely outcome. What good is bargaining for less important things but not for the important things in life? The whole idea of things I'm not allowed to talk about disturbs me the most. Can't talk about a pay raise? What's next?

middletownscouter wrote: Bocephus wrote: middletownscouter wrote: Bocephus, which middle class jobs are being stolen away from Americans by illegal immigrants?   Millions of illegal immigrants in this Country willing to work for lower wages lowers working men and womens ability to earn a liveable wage.Once they gain legal (status which is what this administration wants to grant them) then they can compete even more with American citizens for jobs not to mention the 150,000 or so a month of legal immigrants that come here every month for jobs I wonder where they all work at?when millions of Americans are unemployed? So lets see hmmm...Maybe by flooding our economy with cheaper foreign labor? Hope that answers your question. No, it really doesn't answer the question at all. Lots of words but I must have missed the part where you actually answered my question. What current middle class job has been taken over by illegal immigrants?

Mr. Nagy,