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What does it mean???

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    Posted: Nov 08 2012 at 5:18am

I don’t get it.

Can someone explain it to me???

The analysts say that Obama won because he got the immigrants’ vote.  Conservatives like legal immigrants.  They encourage and assist them in achieving the “American dream”.  Do legal immigrants think that illegal immigrants should be able to sneak into America, access all of the educational, medical, and social services that they—the legal immigrants—have worked so hard to earn and pay for???  Or is it that illegal immigrants are voting???

The analysts say that Obama won because he got the single-woman-between-18-and-35 vote.  They say that these women think that conservatives want to “run their lives” and to “rule their bodies”.  Are they really that stupid???  Do they really think that Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan would send ogres to their homes to be sure that they had no contraceptives???  Do they really think that the most important objective in the lives of conservative men is to repeal Roe v. Wade???  How can they possibly base their vote on the $9 per month that it costs for contraception???  Can’t they spend any time at all to learn the truth behind organizations such as Planned Parenthood rather than take the word of the left-leaning media???  Can’t they even call Planned Parenthood and ask them for a “free mammogram” and see what they say???

The analysts say that Obama won because he got the “youth vote”.  These would be the same youths that can’t find a job or are way under-employed, and are likely tens of thousands of dollars in debt due to college loans.  They are also likely competing for jobs against older workers in the same fields who have years of experience--older workers who are highly motivated, with families to support and mortgages to pay.

The analysts say that Obama won because he got the vote of those who are “on the dole”, the “47%”, the needy, the welfare generation.  It is said that this group now gets the equivalent of $37,000 per year from the government.  This is simply not sustainable.  Even by increasingly “taxing the rich” it is simply not sustainable.  What is worse, as higher taxes trickle down—and they must—and those who earn only a slightly better lifestyle than the government largesse provides decide that working is no longer worthwhile, the working class will shrink and the “47%” will grow at an alarming rate.  This “domino effect” will bring down America in short order.  Conservatives seem to understand this.  Obama and his liberal friends do not.

Or do they???
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2012 at 6:57am
MikeP:

"Do they really think that the most important objective in the lives of conservative men is to repeal Roe v. Wade??? How can they possibly base their vote on the $9 per month that it costs for contraception??? Can’t they spend any time at all to learn the truth behind organizations such as Planned Parenthood rather than take the word of the left-leaning media??? Can’t they even call Planned Parenthood and ask them for a “free mammogram” and see what they say???"

No. It is easier to sit on the couch each evening, watch the news and belive what you are told than to research the truth. They voted based on information they received from the news.

MikeP:

"The analysts say that Obama won because he got the vote of those who are “on the dole”, the “47%”, the needy, the welfare generation"

I find it hard to believe that this "welfare generation" even registered to vote, much less got their lazy asses off the couch to go to the polling place and punched some buttons. Does anyone really believe that these welfare people are inclined to vote or take an interest in the issues? I don't see them as having any interest in this type of activity, even to protect their handouts.

On the other hand, can we be certain that if we didn't tax the crap out of the rich, and gave them tax breaks instead, that they would take the savings and create jobs for the working class?.......or would they take the savings and invest it in off-shore tax shelters, making their tax break totally worthless to economic stimulation? Any data that tells us that giving the rich tax breaks creates enough jobs that helps the economy?
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bocephus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2012 at 7:07am
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

I don’t get it.

Can someone explain it to me???

The analysts say that Obama won because he got the immigrants’ vote.  Conservatives like legal immigrants.  They encourage and assist them in achieving the “American dream”.  Do legal immigrants think that illegal immigrants should be able to sneak into America, access all of the educational, medical, and social services that they—the legal immigrants—have worked so hard to earn and pay for???  Or is it that illegal immigrants are voting???

The analysts say that Obama won because he got the single-woman-between-18-and-35 vote.  They say that these women think that conservatives want to “run their lives” and to “rule their bodies”.  Are they really that stupid???  Do they really think that Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan would send ogres to their homes to be sure that they had no contraceptives???  Do they really think that the most important objective in the lives of conservative men is to repeal Roe v. Wade???  How can they possibly base their vote on the $9 per month that it costs for contraception???  Can’t they spend any time at all to learn the truth behind organizations such as Planned Parenthood rather than take the word of the left-leaning media???  Can’t they even call Planned Parenthood and ask them for a “free mammogram” and see what they say???

The analysts say that Obama won because he got the “youth vote”.  These would be the same youths that can’t find a job or are way under-employed, and are likely tens of thousands of dollars in debt due to college loans.  They are also likely competing for jobs against older workers in the same fields who have years of experience--older workers who are highly motivated, with families to support and mortgages to pay.

The analysts say that Obama won because he got the vote of those who are “on the dole”, the “47%”, the needy, the welfare generation.  It is said that this group now gets the equivalent of $37,000 per year from the government.  This is simply not sustainable.  Even by increasingly “taxing the rich” it is simply not sustainable.  What is worse, as higher taxes trickle down—and they must—and those who earn only a slightly better lifestyle than the government largesse provides decide that working is no longer worthwhile, the working class will shrink and the “47%” will grow at an alarming rate.  This “domino effect” will bring down America in short order.  Conservatives seem to understand this.  Obama and his liberal friends do not.

Or do they???
 
Just more garbage put out by a very biased media for the masses. The truth is that the very media that publish this garbage are in fact the ones that got obama elected by ignoring the real stories of our times such as the truth about the economy and just too much to even start listing..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2012 at 7:53am
$2 billion on the pres battle
$6 billion on elections in general
And we end up with the same as we had b4?
oh boy
 
and our city keeps spending on wages bennies new people and STIPENDS TO LIVE IN THE FORMER DOWNTOWN AREA like the are flush
with no ?s or discussion
insanity
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ktf1179 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2012 at 7:54am
It is liberal brain washing machine that has been happening for years. When you go to college now you are made out to be a villain by professors and your fellow classmates if you have any conservative thoughts.

When you watch TV shows and Movies, they make conservatives, and republicans out to be the bad guys. Then they turn around and push their progressive agenda with shows like Jersey shore and the New Normal.

When you watch the news they will vilify George W Bush for his response to Katrina, but when Hurricane Sandy hits they treat Obama like a hero, even though his response time was about the same.

Then you throw in free government hands outs to people such as the Obama phone, food stamps, unemployment, Section 8 housing, and WIC, you end up with a citizenry of people who are addicted to the government.

Finally you sprinkle on some celebrity endorsements and free concerts for Obama, and Ta Da Obama Wins re-election

This is a why the ideas of conservatism is slowly dying with the younger generation. With the liberal machine like this. Either the Republicans abandon old issues of the past like Gay Marriage, and abortion, and start showing the new demographic how conservative ideas are universal amongst all people or the conservative and republican ideas will be a thing of a past.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2012 at 7:55am
Mr. P,

I believe I can answer your question but I don't think you'll like the answer.

On every issue you elaborated on in your post I can find nowhere in the election discourse where any candidate said the things you said in regards to what conservatives believe.  For instance, I never heard any real drive by the GOP to say that legal immigration is good for America.  The whole "self-deportation" theme became an attack on all immigration, legal or otherwise. The comments made by GOP candidates about rape, abortion, Planned Parenthood and contraceptives became "the war on women". The youth vote was lost because the cyclical nature of the economy and the lack of specifics about the plans of the GOP for the economy. The real "loser" argument, however; was the attack on the 47%. I'd like to see some facts regarding your $37k argument. When the GOP alienate that much of the population with generalities, the party puts itself in an untenable election situation. Is it any wonder that the negativity of the GOP played right into the hands of a party that's theme was "Forward"? The whole perception of the GOP has become angry white people who want to "control" anyone that doesn't believe what they believe. You're not going to convince an increasingly diverse electorate with the message that the GOP promulgated in this election cycle. The GOP is in desperate need of another "Great Communicator"; someone who can explain the conservative position in a positive manner. The politics of hate and recriminations has run its course. Without someone who can provide a positive vision for the conservative point of view, you'll continue to see new voters swayed to the Democratic party.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rngrmed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2012 at 9:08am
I'm pretty sure that Bush started the "Obama-phone"   and I know that welfare started before Obama was even BORN. 
 
As far as planned parenthood-- services are income based.  So "some" do receive free services.
 
When you have republikkkans making statements like "a woman's body can reject a baby in a case of legititmate rape" I think that pisses women off.  When Republikkkans come with the 5 types of rape and make statements that women should lay there and accept that the rape is happening and be grateful that God is giving them a chance to carry a baby that adds fuel to the fire.
 
I think/hope that these statements are not indicative of the whole party's beliefs, but these were from congressmen and hurts the party. 
 
And those on welfare do not just support the Democratic party-- I saw a woman paying with her welfare card that had Romney sticker on her jacket. 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rngrmed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2012 at 10:21am
The "Obama phone" has roots back to Reagan in the 1980's to provide low cost phones to the elderly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neil Barille Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2012 at 11:34am
Part of the problem is the primary process that the GOP candidates had to run through where they all had to out-fascist each other.  Many bad vibes stuck to Romeny from the process. 
 
TonyB, the $37k number wouldn't surprise me.  I remember seeing a TV piece about an African-American women who got off welfare and I believe is now employed as a conservative speaker.  She lived in California I think and they outlined the total value of all her bennies.  It came to something like $50,000.  This included everything from welfare cash, housing assistance, food stamps, the value of her "medical card", free/reduced bennies like bus tickets, etc.  It also included the tax refund she was able to get by filing as a low income person.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2012 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by TonyB TonyB wrote:

Mr. P,

I believe I can answer your question but I don't think you'll like the answer.

On every issue you elaborated on in your post I can find nowhere in the election discourse where any candidate said the things you said in regards to what conservatives believe.  For instance, I never heard any real drive by the GOP to say that legal immigration is good for America.  The whole "self-deportation" theme became an attack on all immigration, legal or otherwise. The comments made by GOP candidates about rape, abortion, Planned Parenthood and contraceptives became "the war on women". The youth vote was lost because the cyclical nature of the economy and the lack of specifics about the plans of the GOP for the economy. The real "loser" argument, however; was the attack on the 47%. I'd like to see some facts regarding your $37k argument. When the GOP alienate that much of the population with generalities, the party puts itself in an untenable election situation. Is it any wonder that the negativity of the GOP played right into the hands of a party that's theme was "Forward"? The whole perception of the GOP has become angry white people who want to "control" anyone that doesn't believe what they believe. You're not going to convince an increasingly diverse electorate with the message that the GOP promulgated in this election cycle. The GOP is in desperate need of another "Great Communicator"; someone who can explain the conservative position in a positive manner. The politics of hate and recriminations has run its course. Without someone who can provide a positive vision for the conservative point of view, you'll continue to see new voters swayed to the Democratic party.

 “I believe I can answer your question but I don't think you'll like the answer.”…TonyB

Tony: It doesn’t matter whether I like your answers or not.  I am not looking for answers that I like.  I am looking for help in understanding what happened.


“On every issue you elaborated on in your post I can find nowhere in the election discourse where any candidate said the things you said in regards to what conservatives believe. For instance, I never heard any real drive by the GOP to say that legal immigration is good for America. The whole "self-deportation" theme became an attack on all immigration, legal or otherwise.”…TonyB

Perhaps you are correct on the immigration thing.  Since we are a nation of immigrants, it never occurred to me that it must actually be explained that legal immigration is good for America.  I thought that this was self-evident, just as I think it is self-evident that since coming into this nation ILLEGALY is a crime, it should NOT be rewarded with benefits paid for by the taxpayers.

 

The comments made by GOP candidates about rape, abortion, Planned Parenthood and contraceptives became "the war on women."…TonyB

Tony: those were two screwball comments made by two wingnut Republican candidates!!!  They did NOT reflect the platform of the Republican party, and they certainly did not reflect the thinking of clear-minded conservatives of ANY party (nor of independent conservatives).  These two wingnuts were roundly criticized by Republican leaders, mainstream Republicans, and all conservatives.  Republicans actually urged both of these men not only to repudiate their remarks but also to relinquish their candidacies to the Republican who was next in the primary process.  (Note:  They could not be forced to relinquish their candidacies simply because they turned stupid; that would’ve been illegal.)  As a sidelight to this, don’t you find it interesting that when a conservative says or does something so undeniably vile as this, the other conservatives condemn him and urge him to step down, but when a liberal does likewise the other liberals always rush to his defense???  Getting back to this point, it was the left-leaning media that turned the two comments from two dingbat Republicans into an “ex-officio plank of the Republican party”.  How can Republicans possibly counter 95% of the main-stream media???

 

 “The youth vote was lost because the cyclical nature of the economy and the lack of specifics about the plans of the GOP for the economy.”…TonyB

Tony: HOLY COW!!!  You can’t really believe this, can you???  Are you saying that, during the campaign, Obama was MORE SPECIFIC about his plans for improving the economy than Romney was???  Is THAT what you are saying???  And are you saying that the four years of “stimulus”, quantitative easing, deficit spending, governmentalizing of one-sixth of the economy (health care), over regulating business, and ruinous energy policy was simply “the cyclical nature of the economy”???  Is THAT what you want me to believe—and more importantly—is THAT what you think won the youth vote for Obama???  If it was simply “the cyclical economy”, why would they vote for Obama??? By its very definition, he would’ve had nothing to do with a “cyclical economy”!!!  

 

“The real "loser" argument, however; was the attack on the 47%. I'd like to see some facts regarding your $37k argument. When the GOP alienate that much of the population with generalities, the party puts itself in an untenable election situation. Is it any wonder that the negativity of the GOP played right into the hands of a party that's theme was "Forward"? The whole perception of the GOP has become angry white people who want to "control" anyone that doesn't believe what they believe. You're not going to convince an increasingly diverse electorate with the message that the GOP promulgated in this election cycle.”…TonyB

Tony, First, this was NEVER the GOP’s argument, nor was it ever an “attack” on the so-called 47%.  It was one ill-advised comment taken out of context, and then made into an argument and an attack by the left-leaning media.  I also submit that the same goes for the “alienation” by the GOP, the “negativity” of the GOP, the “angry white people”, and the host of other slurs attributed to the American right.  They are none of those things, and anyone who actually watches them will clearly see that.  (But you have to actually watch THEM—NOT the media’s portrayal of them!!!)  Conservatives, and their gatherings, are 99.9% friendly, uplifting, generous, witty, patriotic, and well-mannered.  It is the left-leaning media that paints them as completely the opposite of that.  (Regarding the $37,000 per year of government benefits:  I can’t recall where I saw this.  When I read it, it all added up, and I know a couple of people to whom it applied, so I accepted it.  I’ll try to find it and when I do, I’ll post it here.)

 

“The GOP is in desperate need of another "Great Communicator"; someone who can explain the conservative position in a positive manner. The politics of hate and recriminations has run its course. Without someone who can provide a positive vision for the conservative point of view, you'll continue to see new voters swayed to the Democratic party.”…TonyB

I think that you might be correct here.  Still, the greater challenge will be getting even a “Great Communicator’s” message out to the nation through the filter of the left-leaning media.

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bocephus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 08 2012 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

Originally posted by TonyB TonyB wrote:

Mr. P,

I believe I can answer your question but I don't think you'll like the answer.

On every issue you elaborated on in your post I can find nowhere in the election discourse where any candidate said the things you said in regards to what conservatives believe.  For instance, I never heard any real drive by the GOP to say that legal immigration is good for America.  The whole "self-deportation" theme became an attack on all immigration, legal or otherwise. The comments made by GOP candidates about rape, abortion, Planned Parenthood and contraceptives became "the war on women". The youth vote was lost because the cyclical nature of the economy and the lack of specifics about the plans of the GOP for the economy. The real "loser" argument, however; was the attack on the 47%. I'd like to see some facts regarding your $37k argument. When the GOP alienate that much of the population with generalities, the party puts itself in an untenable election situation. Is it any wonder that the negativity of the GOP played right into the hands of a party that's theme was "Forward"? The whole perception of the GOP has become angry white people who want to "control" anyone that doesn't believe what they believe. You're not going to convince an increasingly diverse electorate with the message that the GOP promulgated in this election cycle. The GOP is in desperate need of another "Great Communicator"; someone who can explain the conservative position in a positive manner. The politics of hate and recriminations has run its course. Without someone who can provide a positive vision for the conservative point of view, you'll continue to see new voters swayed to the Democratic party.

 “I believe I can answer your question but I don't think you'll like the answer.”…TonyB

Tony: It doesn’t matter whether I like your answers or not.  I am not looking for answers that I like.  I am looking for help in understanding what happened.


“On every issue you elaborated on in your post I can find nowhere in the election discourse where any candidate said the things you said in regards to what conservatives believe. For instance, I never heard any real drive by the GOP to say that legal immigration is good for America. The whole "self-deportation" theme became an attack on all immigration, legal or otherwise.”…TonyB

Perhaps you are correct on the immigration thing.  Since we are a nation of immigrants, it never occurred to me that it must actually be explained that legal immigration is good for America.  I thought that this was self-evident, just as I think it is self-evident that since coming into this nation ILLEGALY is a crime, it should NOT be rewarded with benefits paid for by the taxpayers.

 

The comments made by GOP candidates about rape, abortion, Planned Parenthood and contraceptives became "the war on women."…TonyB

Tony: those were two screwball comments made by two wingnut Republican candidates!!!  They did NOT reflect the platform of the Republican party, and they certainly did not reflect the thinking of clear-minded conservatives of ANY party (nor of independent conservatives).  These two wingnuts were roundly criticized by Republican leaders, mainstream Republicans, and all conservatives.  Republicans actually urged both of these men not only to repudiate their remarks but also to relinquish their candidacies to the Republican who was next in the primary process.  (Note:  They could not be forced to relinquish their candidacies simply because they turned stupid; that would’ve been illegal.)  As a sidelight to this, don’t you find it interesting that when a conservative says or does something so undeniably vile as this, the other conservatives condemn him and urge him to step down, but when a liberal does likewise the other liberals always rush to his defense???  Getting back to this point, it was the left-leaning media that turned the two comments from two dingbat Republicans into an “ex-officio plank of the Republican party”.  How can Republicans possibly counter 95% of the main-stream media???

 

 “The youth vote was lost because the cyclical nature of the economy and the lack of specifics about the plans of the GOP for the economy.”…TonyB

Tony: HOLY COW!!!  You can’t really believe this, can you???  Are you saying that, during the campaign, Obama was MORE SPECIFIC about his plans for improving the economy than Romney was???  Is THAT what you are saying???  And are you saying that the four years of “stimulus”, quantitative easing, deficit spending, governmentalizing of one-sixth of the economy (health care), over regulating business, and ruinous energy policy was simply “the cyclical nature of the economy”???  Is THAT what you want me to believe—and more importantly—is THAT what you think won the youth vote for Obama???  If it was simply “the cyclical economy”, why would they vote for Obama??? By its very definition, he would’ve had nothing to do with a “cyclical economy”!!!  

 

“The real "loser" argument, however; was the attack on the 47%. I'd like to see some facts regarding your $37k argument. When the GOP alienate that much of the population with generalities, the party puts itself in an untenable election situation. Is it any wonder that the negativity of the GOP played right into the hands of a party that's theme was "Forward"? The whole perception of the GOP has become angry white people who want to "control" anyone that doesn't believe what they believe. You're not going to convince an increasingly diverse electorate with the message that the GOP promulgated in this election cycle.”…TonyB

Tony, First, this was NEVER the GOP’s argument, nor was it ever an “attack” on the so-called 47%.  It was one ill-advised comment taken out of context, and then made into an argument and an attack by the left-leaning media.  I also submit that the same goes for the “alienation” by the GOP, the “negativity” of the GOP, the “angry white people”, and the host of other slurs attributed to the American right.  They are none of those things, and anyone who actually watches them will clearly see that.  (But you have to actually watch THEM—NOT the media’s portrayal of them!!!)  Conservatives, and their gatherings, are 99.9% friendly, uplifting, generous, witty, patriotic, and well-mannered.  It is the left-leaning media that paints them as completely the opposite of that.  (Regarding the $37,000 per year of government benefits:  I can’t recall where I saw this.  When I read it, it all added up, and I know a couple of people to whom it applied, so I accepted it.  I’ll try to find it and when I do, I’ll post it here.)

 

“The GOP is in desperate need of another "Great Communicator"; someone who can explain the conservative position in a positive manner. The politics of hate and recriminations has run its course. Without someone who can provide a positive vision for the conservative point of view, you'll continue to see new voters swayed to the Democratic party.”…TonyB

I think that you might be correct here.  Still, the greater challenge will be getting even a “Great Communicator’s” message out to the nation through the filter of the left-leaning media.

 
And all this about Romney and as usual Obama gets a pass from the leftist media for all his actions that are screwing this country over and over again. Tony B dont even bother to respond to my post I wont respond to anything you say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2012 at 12:01am
TonyB:
You may notice that the below adds up to well over $37K per year.  That is because not all recipients get all benefits or the same amount for each benefit.  Some get other benefits.  Some get more (or less) for some of the benefits)  How they came to $37K as an average wasn't explained.  I believe that the scenario is plausible.  I personally know people who haven't worked (more than a few hours a week) for decades, but have newer cars than I do, cell phones, spend time carousing, gambling, etc.

  $8,400 SSDI (Disability)  $5,000  Earned income tax credit

     $700  Child tax credit

  $3,600 SNAP (food stamps)

 $3,600 Child care

$12,000 MedicAid 

 $1,000  Cell phone

 $7,200 HUD voucher

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2012 at 12:16am
TonyB,
 
The more times that I read your answer, the more I think that "what happened" last Tuesday was THE LEFT-LEANING MAIN-STRAM MEDIA!!!
 
I guess that the GOP will never again be able to win the White House as long as extreme liberals are (supposedly) "reporting the news".
 
Is THAT what you were trying to tell me...that we must find a communicator SO "great" that he/she can convince the main-stream media to report the news honestly and fairly???
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2012 at 8:11am
Bocephus,

The question Mr. Presta posed wasn't about Obama so I saw no need to say anything about him. Your rant shows me two things: you want to fix blame on outside forces instead of realizing that Romney and the GOP made mistakes that cost them the election and that you do not understand the concept of positive messaging. Rant all you want about the "leftists" and the MSM; until the GOP can present a positive message for conservatism, you'll wind up with the same results. Blaming me for my opinion and saying that you won't even read a reply by me is just throwing a temper tantrum.

Mr. P,
I do believe there was more to the youth vote than just economic issues but I also think that the image of capitalism portrayed by Mitt Romney tarnished his chances. There seemed to be no compassion in his message and the simple message of jobs didn't mesh with how capitalism was portrayed. If the message had been more about good jobs that can support families and communities, it might have gained more traction.

I also think that the Romney flip-flop, say whatever the audience wants to hear, gave an aura of indecisiveness to the whole conservative message. The Ayn Rand philosophy of every man for himself is at odds with the religious tenants of Christianity. The messages were so jumbled that there seemed to be no principles to stand upon. I also think that you are deluding yourself to a certain extent when you say that only a couple of GOP candidates said things that didn't reflect conservative ideology.  Candidates were repudiated and then given campaign funds; Romney never came out and repudiated those stains on the conservative message and Fox News tried to defend some of these remarks as true even as other conservatives repudiated them. It was puzzling to me why the GOP deluded themselves into thinking they were going to win and win easily. I believe their overconfidence and the brutal nature of the GOP primaries left independent and undecided voters with a tarnished image of conservative goals. If you continue to blame the MSM for this defeat, you'll continue to miss why the message was rejected. The truth of the matter is that what was offered was poorly presented and explained, not that the message was somehow lied about. You give the American voter too little credit if you believe that they can't see through the bias of any media source. Convincing the media isn't the problem, it's convincing the voter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bocephus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2012 at 9:02am
Originally posted by TonyB TonyB wrote:

Bocephus,

The question Mr. Presta posed wasn't about Obama so I saw no need to say anything about him. Your rant shows me two things: you want to fix blame on outside forces instead of realizing that Romney and the GOP made mistakes that cost them the election and that you do not understand the concept of positive messaging. Rant all you want about the "leftists" and the MSM; until the GOP can present a positive message for conservatism, you'll wind up with the same results. Blaming me for my opinion and saying that you won't even read a reply by me is just throwing a temper tantrum.

Mr. P,
I do believe there was more to the youth vote than just economic issues but I also think that the image of capitalism portrayed by Mitt Romney tarnished his chances. There seemed to be no compassion in his message and the simple message of jobs didn't mesh with how capitalism was portrayed. If the message had been more about good jobs that can support families and communities, it might have gained more traction.

I also think that the Romney flip-flop, say whatever the audience wants to hear, gave an aura of indecisiveness to the whole conservative message. The Ayn Rand philosophy of every man for himself is at odds with the religious tenants of Christianity. The messages were so jumbled that there seemed to be no principles to stand upon. I also think that you are deluding yourself to a certain extent when you say that only a couple of GOP candidates said things that didn't reflect conservative ideology.  Candidates were repudiated and then given campaign funds; Romney never came out and repudiated those stains on the conservative message and Fox News tried to defend some of these remarks as true even as other conservatives repudiated them. It was puzzling to me why the GOP deluded themselves into thinking they were going to win and win easily. I believe their overconfidence and the brutal nature of the GOP primaries left independent and undecided voters with a tarnished image of conservative goals. If you continue to blame the MSM for this defeat, you'll continue to miss why the message was rejected. The truth of the matter is that what was offered was poorly presented and explained, not that the message was somehow lied about. You give the American voter too little credit if you believe that they can't see through the bias of any media source. Convincing the media isn't the problem, it's convincing the voter.
 
Thats some more of your bullsh*t ,do you honestly think that if the left leaning media actualy reported what obama has and is really up to that he could have been re elected ? The media has given him a pass on things that they would have crucified a person of a different party over. Dont tell me you are that f**king stupid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bocephus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2012 at 9:13am
To sum it all up obama didnt win this election,the media won so I hope all you obama zombies are happy and get what you wanted out of this deal. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 09 2012 at 9:18am
Bocephus,

What does Obama have and what is he really up to? What things haven't been hammered by the media and the candidates and super PACs. You do realize that advertising is as much a part of the MSM as the programming itself. Which part of non-American, Kenyan-born, anti-capitalist, anti-Christian, anti-colonialist, racist, gay-loving, marxist, fascist, communist, Muslim, N*****, liar, destroyer of the American way of life has not yet been discussed.\? Did I miss something? How do I know all of this? Heard it in the media.There are a number of things that I don't like and don't agree with in regards to President Obama and progressives/liberals. Instead of belittling my intelligence or beliefs, why don't you rationally explain your point of view?  Oh, btw, you did read my reply!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 10 2012 at 3:13am

“I do believe there was more to the youth vote than just economic issues but I also think that the image of capitalism portrayed by Mitt Romney tarnished his chances. There seemed to be no compassion in his message and the simple message of jobs didn't mesh with how capitalism was portrayed. If the message had been more about good jobs that can support families and communities, it might have gained more traction.”…TonyB

Tony,

This is different from what you originally said, which was:

“The youth vote was lost because the cyclical nature of the economy and the lack of specifics about the plans of the GOP for the economy.” 

I am having a little trouble understanding the new reasoning that you are introducing.  First, are you saying that Romney, himself, is not a compassionate man???  If so, I doubt that you actually watched the Republican convention or that you actually know anything about Mitt Romney, the man.  Anyone who actually knows his background and history would know that he is a compassionate person.  Next, the vibrant economy that would flourish under unfettered capitalism would do more for the poor and lower class, and to raise members of all socioeconomic classes to higher socioeconomic classes, than any other system that the world has ever seen, bar none.  Can you point to any example where making the rich poorer, has made the poor richer???  Anywhere…at any time???  Hard work and personal initiative pays off (or, at least it used to).  Consider all of the immigrants who came here (legally) with virtually nothing.  They worked hard, saved their money, started their own businesses (this was before the government made it virtually impossible to succeed in doing so), and achieved beyond their dreams.  Then, many of their employees did the same thing.  This is nearly impossible today (although some still manage it), since there is a bureaucrat standing in the way at nearly every turn, and every two or three people who are working must also support one person who is retired and one person who either cannot or will not work.



“I also think that the Romney flip-flop, say whatever the audience wants to hear, gave an aura of indecisiveness to the whole conservative message.”…TonyB

 

Well, I have to agree with you here, especially early on.  I never did think Romney was a true conservative, and he did flip-flop trying to appeal to the right during the primaries, and move towards the middle after he got the nomination.  I believe that a true fiscal conservative would’ve scored better in the general election and turned out more of the base than Romney did.  Too many voted for Romney simply because he was “better than Obama”.  Worse yet, I believe that too many stayed home (did not vote) because they felt that there was not a candidate who stood a chance of winning that reflected their fiscal values.  What I cannot understand is why so many voted for Obama.

 

“The Ayn Rand philosophy of every man for himself is at odds with the religious tenants of Christianity.”…TonyB

 

You must’ve read different Ayn Rand writings than I did.  I interpreted her philosophy as “every man is responsible for himself and his family, and that we also have a responsibility to those truly unable to help themselves.”  But Rand didn’t believe that our help for the less fortunate should pass through the government.  To her (and to me) it is illogical to spend money on bureaucrats to collect money, for example, in Middletown, send it to Washington DC, shuffle it around amongst innumerable departments, send what is left back to Middletown, and then pay someone to dole it out to whomever they think needs help.  If I see a family here that is in need, I can give them $50 for groceries.  If that $50 is taken in tax (or any other kind of federal fee) the family here will be lucky to get $15 by time it comes back.  Rand’s philosophy was to give the family $20, and find a way to hire someone from that family and pay them $30 dollars…then perhaps the person learns a skill, improves their self-esteem, and keeps working and therefore no longer needs charity.  And perhaps you end up with a good employee.  Everyone wins!!!   The needy family gets the full $50 instead of $15, plus an opportunity to become self-sufficient and to raise themselves up, the "donor" gets some labor for his $50 instead of a tax receipt…and all with NO government involvement!!!

 

 

 

“The messages were so jumbled that there seemed to be no principles to stand upon.”…TonyB

 

Agreed.  If someone was undecided, and followed Romney all of the way from the first primary/caucus through until November 6, this would be true.

 

 

“I also think that you are deluding yourself to a certain extent when you say that only a couple of GOP candidates said things that didn't reflect conservative ideology. Candidates were repudiated and then given campaign funds;”…TonyB

 

I disagree.  Those two wingnuts (Akin from Missouri, and Mourdock from Indiana) were renounced by Romney/Ryan, although an ad showing Romney endorsing Mourdock (THAT WAS FILMED PRIOR TO THE REMARKS) did run for a short period and was high-jacked by the Obama campaign and used to imply that Romney agreed with Mourdock’s rape stance.  Money from the GOP Senate candidates’ fund was cut off from both, but they could not take back money that had already gone to the two.  Nearly ALL prominent Republicans renounced them and withdrew support.  Party bigwigs tried to get both men to withdraw, to allow a last minute write-in campaign by alternate candidates.  

 

 

“Romney never came out and repudiated those stains on the conservative message and Fox News tried to defend some of these remarks as true even as other conservatives repudiated them.”…TonyB

 

Romney DID!!! (See above.)  As for Fox news, I watched FNC a lot throughout the entire campaign (as well as other news shows.  Remember, I am usually up all night, so I can catch reruns of the national shows of several networks.)  NO ONE that I know of at Fox defended those two screwballs, except possibly a guest or two.  (Fox usually tries to have someone on EACH side of EVERY debate, so they might’ve dug up some oddball somewhere in an effort to be “fair and balanced”.)  The only other possibility is Sean Hannity.  I usually don’t watch his show…he is just too repetitive for me—like a broken record.  About once a month is enough of him for me.  Now, I’ve heard people on the other networks CLAIM that Fox defended the two nuts, but I NEVER heard a Fox straight news reporter, anchor, or regular commentator do so!!

 

“It was puzzling to me why the GOP deluded themselves into thinking they were going to win and win easily.”…TonyB

 

Well, Tony, I can only speak for myself.  I thought Romney would win in a landslide because I didn’t believe that Obama could fool that many people AGAIN!!!  He had no real message. (Except that Romney’s a crook/liar/thief/hates women/the elderly/children.)  He proffered no economic plan except “tax the rich” and keep doing what I’ve done the last four years that has got us nowhere.  He offered no hope.  He offered no change.  That is why I asked for help in understanding what happened.  How could that many people possibly have voted for him AGAIN???

 

“I believe their overconfidence and the brutal nature of the GOP primaries left independent and undecided voters with a tarnished image of conservative goals.”…TonyB

 

I could go along with that, EXCEPT…do you remember 2008???  These primaries were no more brutal than the 2008 Democratic primaries, and Obama emerged much more overconfident that year than Romney did this time…and Obama won big in 2008…so what’s the difference???

 

“If you continue to blame the MSM for this defeat, you'll continue to miss why the message was rejected. The truth of the matter is that what was offered was poorly presented and explained, not that the message was somehow lied about.”…TonyB

 

Hold the phone, Tony!!!  I didn’t START to blame the media until after we started this discussion.  I asked for help in understanding what happened.  You replied; I read and re-read your reply many times—even after I answered it.  THAT was when I began believing that the MSM carried the day…YOU convinced me!  Now, I’m not trying to turn this into an argument.  I really appreciate the discussion and your input.

But (there’s always a “but”, isn’t there?) I’ve watched this entire campaign closely; watched every debate at least twice; watched many of the campaign speeches (of both candidates);  and of course I’ve seen most of the ads.  I’ve also read a ton of editorials from a dozen different newspapers, watched months of news and opinion shows on ALL of the networks.  I feel like I know what the candidates have said about themselves…AND what they have said about each other…AND what the pundits have said about them.

 

Now, when I go back and read your first reply, again, I still see the same thing:  I think that you are correct on the first issue (regarding immigration), but on the rest of it, it all appears to be information that you got, NOT from the Romney/Ryan campaign, but from others giving a distorted view of the Romney/Ryan campaign and what they stood for.  Please, go back and review it, and my response.  It’s as if we watched two DIFFERENT campaigns.

 

 

“You give the American voter too little credit if you believe that they can't see through the bias of any media source. Convincing the media isn't the problem, it's convincing the voter.”…TonyB

 

I don’t believe for a minute that it is a case of “convincing” the media.  It is simply a fact that the media is liberal, and that they have given up their journalistic integrity on most of the networks and in most of the newspapers.  They are simply willing to say or do anything to get a liberal candidate elected.

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 10 2012 at 8:01am
By the way, someone posted that Planned Parenthood's services are income based, so they may be "free" for some women.  Well, that may be true.  I never disputed that.
 
What I disputed is the myth that Planned Parenthood provides free (or ANY) mammograms.  They might tell a woman where she can go to get a mammogram, but they do NOT perform them, whether for pay, for free, for trade, or for anything else.
 
If they DID perform mammograms, I doubt that any conservatives would object to it.  I certainly would not.  What many conservatives object to is federally funded abortions by Planned Parenthood.  They feel that they should not have to pay, via their tax money, for what they consider the taking of an innocent life.
 
My biggest beef is the innuendo that the liberals (and the media) is happy to perpetuate:  That Planned Parenthood performs mammograms at no cost for the needy.  This is simply untrue.
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 10 2012 at 8:37am
Mr. P,

Thanks for the reply. I'll attempt to clarify a few of my points here but I do still believe that  the presentation of the conservative message by Mr. Romney and the GOP was what ultimately decided the election.

First off, I have to agree with you that Mr. Romney was not, is not and never has been a conservative. That, imo, was the biggest problem throughout the election season; you had a candidate whose core beliefs were at odds with the conservative message. Saying you're a conservative doesn't make you one and it did give the impression that Mr. Romney was less than honest about what he believed. The long campaign season made that point tangible in the eyes of independent and undecided voters. The "compassion" issue is also something that Mr. Romney had trouble with on many occasions. Watching staged events like the conventions where Mr. Romney could play his role in the story wasn't as telling as the unguarded moments caught on tape. It made Mr. Romney seem insincere and in politics, perception is everything. If I convinced you that it was the media who made Mr. Romney look insincere, you'd also have to cede the point that Mr. Romney didn't do himself any favors with some of the decisions he made and the things he said. Romney was the wrong person to run after the bank collapse in 2008; his business practices seemed greedy and disconnected to most Americans. The off-shore bank accounts gave the impression of tax evasion and Mr. Romney's refusal to release his tax returns reinforced that perception. His lack of specifics on what deductions he would eliminate and then saying that if he told what they were no one would vote for him was one of the most self-defeating moments I have ever witnessed. I don't know how I can say it any planer than this: Mitt Romney was the wrong candidate at the wrong time. If he had been the nominee in 2008, he might have beaten Obama and it would have been Romney running for reelection. After running for 6 years to win the presidency, Mitt Romney had been damaged by the Republican primaries and election rules that favor the incumbent. President Obama was able to define Romney as the wrong person to be president and in the end, the voters agreed. It is all the more astonishing to me because this was an election that the GOP could have won.

It certainly isn't a matter of convincing the media. However, I have to laugh at the idea that the media is "liberal". There is a wealth of media now; to declare the entire industry one thing or another is absurd. There is a liberal point of view in the media; there is also a conservative point of view. Both sides accuse the other of being biased; that's not news to me. What's news to me is that you believe the "liberal" media is going to give the conservative viewpoint positive press. They are going to look for the dirt just like the conservative press is going to do. You'll have to admit that Fox News doesn't exactly put a positive spin on any story about Obama. It doesn't surprise me in the same way that MSNBC didn't have much positive to say about Romney. Saying the liberal media is responsible for Romney's loss doesn't solve the problem for the GOP. We've already seen in the last few days how the Republicans are going to govern as the minority party but in control of the budget process. It's back to status quo, hold the government hostage and gridlock. If the House Republicans can present a deal to the president that can increase revenues without raising tax rates, they might be able to get a deal. If not, the media blame game is going to go into full overdrive.

The conservative message is in serious danger if a third party emerges. The talk has already started and it would be a disaster for the GOP. I know that you are sincere about wanting to understand why this election turned out the way it did and to change the results of the next election. A stronger candidate would go a long way to that end.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2012 at 3:03am

“Thanks for the reply. I'll attempt to clarify a few of my points here but I do still believe that the presentation of the conservative message by Mr. Romney and the GOP was what ultimately decided the election.

First off, I have to agree with you that Mr. Romney was not, is not and never has been a conservative. That, imo, was the biggest problem throughout the election season; you had a candidate whose core beliefs were at odds with the conservative message. Saying you're a conservative doesn't make you one and it did give the impression that Mr. Romney was less than honest about what he believed. The long campaign season made that point tangible in the eyes of independent and undecided voters.”…TonyB

Okay, so even if I stipulate to all of that, so far in this discussion we have been ignoring the fact that there were only TWO candidates in this election who had an actual possibility of being elected: Romney and Obama, and we have been ignoring Obama throughout the discussion.  Given that Romney is not a true conservative, it cannot be denied that he is more conservative than Obama, can it???  It certainly appeared to me that there was a clear choice, and given that clear choice, for conservatives (or anyone else) to abstain from voting would be akin to voting for Obama.  True conservatives would certainly NOT want to help Obama to another four years, so why wouldn’t they vote for Romney???  It just doesn’t make sense to me.  Most of the Democrats that I know claim to have voted for Romney, a Republican, this time--the first time that they have voted for a Republican in their lives—because of Obama’s ruinous economic and energy policies.  How could Obama have gotten more votes than he did in 2008…and why would conservatives refrain from voting, knowing that by doing so they were helping Obama to a second term.  Are you saying that they couldn’t think that far ahead???  It is as I tried to explain to VietVet in another tread: The vote that would be better for the American economy would be best for everyone in the long run.  So…I am certain that Obama lost at least some votes from 2008.  It would seem to me that some others would have become disenchanted because the “change” that they had “hoped” for didn’t materialize.  Those are the ones that I thought would “stay home” quicker than anyone would.

 

“The "compassion" issue is also something that Mr. Romney had trouble with on many occasions. Watching staged events like the conventions where Mr. Romney could play his role in the story wasn't as telling as the unguarded moments caught on tape. It made Mr. Romney seem insincere and in politics, perception is everything. If I convinced you that it was the media who made Mr. Romney look insincere, you'd also have to cede the point that Mr. Romney didn't do himself any favors with some of the decisions he made and the things he said. Romney was the wrong person to run after the bank collapse in 2008; his business practices seemed greedy and disconnected to most Americans.”…TonyB

I assume that you are referring to his business practices at Bain Capital.  Anyone who thinks that those business practices were “greedy” just doesn’t understand business.  Bain took failing and struggling businesses and tried to turn them around, some made it, some did not.  Most needed some degree of consolidation before they could grow and prosper.  Once again, the media concentrated on reporting the failures that closed and not the successes (like AMC Entertainment, Aspen Education Group, Brookstone, Burger King, Burlington Coat Factory, Clear Channel Communications, Domino’s Pizza, Dunkin’ Donuts, D&M Holdings, Guitar Center, Hospital Corporation of America, Sealy, The Sports Authority, Staples, Toys “R” Us, Warner Music Group, and  The Weather Channel.)  Hundreds of thousands of people probably have jobs that otherwise wouldn’t have, thanks to Bain Capital.  The ones who lost their jobs probably would have lost them quicker, if not for Bain.

 

“The off-shore bank accounts gave the impression of tax evasion and Mr. Romney's refusal to release his tax returns reinforced that perception. His lack of specifics on what deductions he would eliminate and then saying that if he told what they were no one would vote for him was one of the most self-defeating moments I have ever witnessed.”…TonyB

I am not familiar with the “if he told what they were no one would vote for him” instance, which surprises me since I watched a ton of political stuff during both the primaries and the presidential campaigns.  (I’d appreciate it if you could send me more info so I could look this up.)  However, as for the “offshore bank accounts”, that is so bogus!!!  I’m not saying that he didn’t have them…I’m sure that he did and still does, but so does Obama.  And guess what??  So do I.  And so do millions of other Americans who are not rich, tax-cheating fat cats.  Anyone who owns diversified mutual funds in a 401K likely has them.  Anyone who holds diversified mutual funds outside a 401K (as an individual investor, as I do) also likely has them and if their taxes are properly prepared, their return includes a form showing their profits (or losses) on their “offshore accounts”, as my return does.  Does that make me some sort of devious scoundrel that is cheating the government by hiding millions in a Cayman account???  NO!!!  It simply means that I own a hundred shares of a mutual fund, and that mutual fund consists of investments in THOUSANDS of diverse companies, some of which may be banks in Jamaica or the Cayman Islands, or even in Switzerland.  I have no idea from day-to-day what it is invested in, but I do get a pamphlet (about 40 pages) four times a year that lists thousands of companies—most of which I’ve never heard of—and how well, or how poorly, the fund performed that quarter.  And guess what??  There is nothing wrong with that—not for me, not for Obama, and not even for Romney!!!  What IS wrong is for folks who should know better to try to insinuate that there IS something wrong with it.

“I don't know how I can say it any planer than this: Mitt Romney was the wrong candidate at the wrong time. If he had been the nominee in 2008, he might have beaten Obama and it would have been Romney running for reelection. After running for 6 years to win the presidency, Mitt Romney had been damaged by the Republican primaries and election rules that favor the incumbent. President Obama was able to define Romney as the wrong person to be president and in the end, the voters agreed. It is all the more astonishing to me because this was an election that the GOP could have won.”…TonyB

Well, you are probably correct.  I know that I would rather have had someone else be the candidate, but the like it or not, the fact remains that Romney won the primary process, and that is the only legal way for either of the two major parties to nominate a candidate.  Just as with Akin and Mourdock (the two Republican senate candidate screwballs), once a candidate wins a primary, the party (either Democrat or Republican) cannot just decide that they’d rather have someone else and replace them.  The party does not pick the candidate…the rank-and-file members do, through the primary process.



“It certainly isn't a matter of convincing the media. However, I have to laugh at the idea that the media is "liberal". There is a wealth of media now; to declare the entire industry one thing or another is absurd. There is a liberal point of view in the media; there is also a conservative point of view. Both sides accuse the other of being biased; that's not news to me. What's news to me is that you believe the "liberal" media is going to give the conservative viewpoint positive press. They are going to look for the dirt just like the conservative press is going to do. You'll have to admit that Fox News doesn't exactly put a positive spin on any story about Obama. It doesn't surprise me in the same way that MSNBC didn't have much positive to say about Romney. Saying the liberal media is responsible for Romney's loss doesn't solve the problem for the GOP.”…TonyB

Well, I guess that I’m failing to communicate my thoughts on this particular matter, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

“We've already seen in the last few days how the Republicans are going to govern as the minority party but in control of the budget process. It's back to status quo, hold the government hostage and gridlock. If the House Republicans can present a deal to the president that can increase revenues without raising tax rates, they might be able to get a deal. If not, the media blame game is going to go into full overdrive.”…TonyB

Now wait just a minute!!! This harks back to the previous question about how the left-leaning media gets out the liberal message!!!  This is all I hear when I listen to any network other than Fox.  However, it simply is not true!!!  The House Republicans are NOT “in control of the budget process”!!!  First, according to law, the PRESIDENT must submit HIS budget to congress no later than the first Monday in February!!!  In February of 2009 and 2010, Obama had a DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY in both the House and the Senate, yet NO budget was passed.  So, how did the Republicans “control” the budget process” those two years???  There has been only ONE budget voted upon in the DEMOCRATICALLY-held Senate in nearly FOUR years, and it was defeated 99-0.  (I would certainly call that a “bi-partisan” vote, wouldn’t you???)  If you say that the Republicans can govern as a minority party by controlling the budget process, then I say SHOW ME ONE budget that Obama has proposed since he became president, that has passed the Senate (which has had a Democratic majority the entire time) that the Republicans have then defeated in the House!!!  You cannot show me even one!!!  This proves that you have been misled by the media into thinking that the Republicans are controlling the budgeting process!!!  But is simply is not true!!!


“The conservative message is in serious danger if a third party emerges. The talk has already started and it would be a disaster for the GOP. I know that you are sincere about wanting to understand why this election turned out the way it did and to change the results of the next election. A stronger candidate would go a long way to that end.”…TonyB

Actually, I think that a third party would be a good idea as I believe that the two-party system has failed.  The so-called “moderate” branches of the two major parties are so close together as to be indistinguishable.  The biggest problem I see with a third party is that it would take so long to become strong enough to be a contender that our country may not survive to see it (at least not as we know it).  I had hopes that the Tea Party Movement would lead the Republican Party back to its roots.

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2012 at 8:49am
Mr P,

Mr. Obama did lose some votes and two states that he carried in 2008, Indiana and North Carolina. It's 50 state elections, not a true national election and the only votes that matter are the 538 electoral votes. To your point about Romney being a conservative and that since he was the only conservative, he should have garnered those votes, I think you're neglecting the one factor that, imo, caused Mr. Romney's defeat; his religion. There are many evangelicals who vote Republican and I don't care what anyone else says, some do not see Mormons as Christians. We can debate this forever but for some, it's not debatable;  Mormonism is a cult and they won't support a Mormon for president. I'm not saying it's right or that it happened to many evangelicals but there were some Republicans and independents who would not vote for Romney on those grounds.

As far as the economic factors, I believe I understand enough about business to know that what you are saying about Mr. Romney is a perspective not all Americans share. It is a proven fact that Bain Capital "harvested" companies by loading them with debt and then paying themselves enormous management fees from the borrowed money. The debt wasn't incurred to help the business, it was incurred solely as profit for Bain Capital investors. There was nothing more devastating to the Bain image than the ad about workers building a stage to be told they were fired. Furthermore, the most damage done to Romney and the business image he tried to portray was done to him by other Republicans during the primaries. Obama and the Democrats didn't need to make any new ads or accusations; all they had to do was repeat the words of Rick Perry, Newt Gingrich and the rest of the Republican primary field. It was an image of business that Mr. Romney was never able to overcome because it was started by his own party. If, as you pointed out, there were companies that were successful after Bain ownership, why didn't the Romney campaign make those companies a big part of his economic message. A missed opportunity for his campaign, imo.

The whole off-shore thing is a nice excuse but it doesn't negate the fact that Romney had MONEY in those accounts, not  just instruments of investment. This is my own point of view here but I find it reprehensible for someone who wants to be president to not have his money invested in America. If he banks in the Cayman Islands, who is the bank loaning the money to? If he banks in America, the money is more likely to be invested in America. IMO, there is a difference between a business and an American business. A business is to make money; an American business makes money by doing what's right for America and American citizens. Multinationals don't give a damn about America unless they're making money from America. Mitt Romney, flying the Cayman Island flag on his yacht while he hosted fundraisers during the GOP convention made him look like a multinational, not an American.

There were a number of instances where the Romney/Ryan campaign made statements about specifics in their plan; unfortunately, those instances were to dodge specifics. "Too complicated to explain","take to much time to explain", "if I told you, you wouldn't vote for it"; all of that puts doubt in the voter's mind. We all laugh about how dishonest our politicians are but those comments just reinforced that perception.

Finally, I understand your point about the "liberal" media but I don't think that you're understanding mine. If you say that the election was lost because of liberal media bias, then you have no hope of rectifying the situation. The "liberal" media isn't going to change their POV because conservatives complain about it. Rush Limbaugh doesn't change his POV because liberals complain about him. Also, it's not like a conservative hasn't been elected before despite this bias (see GW Bush). The GOP has to fix what it can and overcome the rest. If it splits into 2 parties, neither will be able to overcome the Democratic coalition that has been built this year. That would indeed change this country and not for the better. There has to be a viable option in elections or there really is no choice. The next 4 years give the GOP a chance to figure it out. Let's hope for all of our sakes, they do.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rngrmed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2012 at 12:42pm
Just looked on Planned Parenthood's website. It states that not all services are available at all locations. So I am not sure if you attempted to call the local Planned parenthoods to get a free mammogram. But it does state that information is available on how to do self exams.

Planned Parenthood was always a target because the support abortion rights (which makes them an easy target). Women support Planned parenthood because they do offer other services besides abortions.

Planned Parenthood is an advocate for preventative testing which insurance companies don't want to pay for. Lobbyists get rid of Planned Parenthood, they are on the road to get rid of Preventative care. This is another reason that it has made more difficult for healthcare facilities to receive Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements. If Medicare/Medicaid don't pay, private insurance will not eventually pay.

This is means no reimbursement for prostate checks, colonoscopies, testicular cancer screenings, skin cancer screenings and any other preventative screenings.

And Planned Parenthood does offer services to males as well. Again, because they support abortion rights, many people will not find out what other services they provide.

But maybe they should call an abortion a D & C. This seems to be acceptable. Same procedure, just done in an operating room versus a clinic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 12 2012 at 5:53am

Rngermed:

You are exactly correct.  Not all services are available at all locations, and some locations may provide “breast examinations” and instruction on how to perform self-examinations.  But NO Planned Parenthood location actually provides “mammograms”!!!

In fact, if you watch the video on their national site they actually state: “Planned Parenthood refers patients to other facilities for mammograms…”!!!

Find even ONE Planned Parenthood location in the USA that actually provides in-house mammograms for low income patients and I will make a $200 donation to Planned Parenthood in your name.
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 12 2012 at 5:58am

TonyB,

I think we’ve about beat this to death, so I won’t go point-by-point through your last response.

I have enjoyed the discussion, though, and I would like to make a few more comments.

First, while you were commenting on the Cayman accounts, you said:

“…the fact that Romney had MONEY in those accounts, not just instruments of investment.”

Do you recall where you learned of this “fact”???  Also, how would you propose one would respond to this if it were not true???  (For example, if I accused you of having Cayman bank accounts, how would you prove that you did not???)

Next, regarding the Romney/Ryan economic plan, you referred to their having stated:

"Too complicated to explain","take to much time to explain", "if I told you, you wouldn't vote for it";

Do you recall where you heard this???  As I mentioned before, I am somewhat of a political junkie who watched and listened to tons of coverage for over a year and I can’t recall ever hearing these particular remarks.

Lastly, regarding your final remarks:

“The GOP has to fix what it can and overcome the rest. If it splits into 2 parties, neither will be able to overcome the Democratic coalition that has been built this year. That would indeed change this country and not for the better. There has to be a viable option in elections or there really is no choice. The next 4 years give the GOP a chance to figure it out. Let's hope for all of our sakes, they do.”

We are in complete agreement here.  As much as I would like to see a third party,  it would take far too long (a minimum of decades, in my opinion) for one to become viable, and I fear that our country simply does not have the time for that to occur.  If for no other reason, the interest on the national debt will soon overwhelm us if it is not attended to promptly, and I fear that the bunch in Washington will simply “kick the can” until it is too late.  I fear that it will be “too late” sooner than most of us realize.

One final thought on “what happened”:

I think that the Republicans “wasted” a lot of time, effort and money on votes that they had already “cinched”, and the Democrats must’ve better spent their pre-election time, effort and money.  I am NOT talking about campaign ads now.  Here is what I mean:

Anyone who is the least bit familiar with campaigning know that you can get lists of the registered voters, by PARTY, for the last however many elections from the Board of elections.  Using myself as an example, they should’ve known that I have voted in the REPUBLICAN primary every primary year since 2000, and have remained registered as a Republican ever since then.  They should also have known that I am a member of the Butler County Republican Central Committee.  Also, when I got the first live phone call urging me to “vote early”, I assured them that I would vote, and when I voted I would vote for Romney.  Still, I got at least six calls a day (some live, some taped) asking for my vote.  They were wasting their time, efforts and money.  They already HAD my vote.  They should’ve been talking to voters who were NOT registered Republicans instead of wasting their time on me.  They should’ve had a mechanism to stop soliciting votes that were already “cinched” so that they could concentrate on trying to actually harvest additional votes.

On the other hand, we did not receive even one call from Obama’s team.  I guess that they were smart enough to know not to waste their time, effort, and money on a Republican Central Committeeman.  (One lady did knock on our door late one night just a couple of days before the election to ask us to vote for Obama.  I guess she couldn’t see the Romney/Ryan yard sign in the dark.)

Now, this may seem like a small thing—but there are over 10,900 precincts in Ohio, so that means over 10,900 Central Committee members, all of whom should have been “cinch votes”.  If each one got called one to two hundred times during the last month of the campaign, that’s one to two MILLION calls in Ohio alone that were completely unnecessary—a total waste of time, effort, and money.

I guess that you could say that this was another way that Obama’s “ground game” was better.  They were smarter.
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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