Help Replace One of Ohio's Oldest Schools?
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Schools
Forum Name: School Tax Issues
Forum Description: Discuss past, current and upcoming tax issues.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5657
Printed Date: Nov 21 2024 at 2:25pm
Topic: Help Replace One of Ohio's Oldest Schools?
Posted By: Iron Man
Subject: Help Replace One of Ohio's Oldest Schools?
Date Posted: Mar 22 2014 at 6:09pm
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They're placing levy campaign signs on public property again. There's even one placed at the J. Ross Hunt Tower (county property). Why is this acceptable? Between that, and the school board's architectural firm supporting the levy campaign, they're stooping pretty low (even by their standards). I hope the counter campaign places opposing signs right next to them. We already sat back and watched these fools tear down Roosevelet when a charter school would have likely purchased the building in a second, and run it the right way. It's interesting that private schools and companies have no problem making good use of superiorly constructed old buildings. Let's put a stop to this madness, VOTE NO. “When we build, let us think that we build forever.” –Ruskin      |
Replies:
Posted By: Iron Man
Date Posted: Mar 22 2014 at 6:11pm
What they left us with... a cheap galvanized chain link fence that would be more fitting wrapped around a salvage yard, and overgrown grass and weeds. |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Mar 22 2014 at 8:04pm
| Thanks for the memories, Ironman |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 23 2014 at 8:42am
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If they are in violation of election laws with the early sign placement, a contact to the Butler County Board of Elections should be made and a complaint filed with the county and state, right? GOT A LITTLE PURPLE "VOTE FOR THE LEVY" CARD ON MY DOOR ON SATURDAY. BIG SIGN ON THE DOOR, RIGHT ABOUT FACE LEVEL SAYING "NO SOLICITING". LEVY VOLUNTEERS MUST NOT BE ABLE TO READ. THE FLYER MADE GOOD FODDER FOR THE TRASHCAN. Agree, they should never have torn down a Middletown landmark, but then again, they don't care. They weren't born and raised here either and have no feelings for the city. The beginning of the end for this city was when the locals died off, the younger people and the jobs left for greener pastures and the new breed outsiders came in with their town-destroying gameplan. THE COMPETENCY OF THE OLD GUARD WAS LIGHT YEARS BEYOND THE PEOPLE WE HAVE NOW. COUNCIL, SCHOOL BOARD, OCCUPANTS OF THE CITY BUILDING, DOESN'T MATTER. WE JUST DON'T HAVE ANY QUALITY LEADERSHIP IN THE TOWN ANYMORE......AND WE ARE PAYING A HUGE PRICE FOR IT TOO AS WE WATCH A TOWN TURN GHETTO AND DIE. TIME TO PLAY YOU TUBE.......CHER SONG "IF I COULD TURN BACK TIME" COUPLED WITH THE BYRD'S SONG, "I'LL FEEL A WHOLE LOT BETTER WHEN YOU'RE GONE" FOR GILLELAND. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 23 2014 at 8:52pm
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Few would dispute the progress made in Ohio over the past 15 years in building or renovating about 1,000 public school buildings at a cost of about $10 billion. In the Mahoning Valley alone, a majority of school districts have undergone remarkable transformations in their physical plants. In Youngstown, for example, the state chipped in 80 percent of the nearly $200 million cost to completely renew and reinvent district facilities. Today, the Ohio School Facilities Commission is more than half-way along its path toward reconstruction or renovation projects in all 612 public school districts serving 1.8 million students. That mission evolved in part from the landmark 1997 Ohio Supreme Court DeRolph ruling that declared Ohio’s system of funding public education unconstitutional because it fell woefully short of affording all Ohio children a thorough and efficient education. As it applies to OSFC, some students were taught in Taj Mahal settings; others learned in squalor. But 16 years later, shiny new brick-and-mortar physical plants have done little to erase the more internal inequities in funding education or the ongoing financial crises local school districts struggle through largely because of the state’s overworn overreliance on local property taxes. The OSFC-funded new buildings may give the appearance of wholesale progress but in some respects they’re little more than impressive-looking smokescreens for lingering inequalities in school funding and student performance among urban, suburban and rural school districts. Disparities remain crystal clear. According to data from the Ohio Department of Education, in 2011, Youngstown City Schools spent an average of $15,408 on each of its 6,057 students compared with the $8,241 spent to educate each of Austintown Local’s 5,149 students. Disparities in student performance are even more stark. In last year’s state report cards for example, Youngstown schools received a D; Austintown schools received an A+. SUCCESS IN ITS TARGETED MISSION Despite the ongoing disparities, the OSFC has succeeded to some extent in leveling the playing field by creating a fresher more appealing learning environment for students, particularly urban students whose schools were among the most decrepid and the first to be modernized. The gargantuan building program, however, has been no complete panacea toward remedying the precarious state of public education and its funding in the Buckeye State. And some have raised legitimate concerns about the very visible OSFC program. As The Columbus Dispatch reported in an investigative project earlier this summer, some question the planning prowess of the commission and its staff and contractors. According to The Dispatch, the majority of schools built over the past several years have opened their doors to overcrowded or overcapacity student enrollments, including those in Hubbard and Niles last school year. In Youngstown, the opposite problem arose. Now, four years after the district completed construction of all its buildings, officials are set to close two new buildings with a combined price tag of $19 million because they have been woefully under capacity. Some question the priorities of OSFC spending. Could some of the $10 billion spent on new facilities have been better spent on enhanced curricula, updated teacher training or improved educational aids? Some also question the fairness of OSFC spending. Some districts in which property owners are taxed most heavily find themselves low men on the totem pole of OSFC priorities. Despite such questioning, the work of OSFC has improved Ohio’s school landscape. ANOTHER ROCKY YEAR AHEAD But it has done little to ameliorate Ohio’s longstanding school-funding dilemma. That dilemma is not diminishing. As we stand on the threshold of the 2013-14 academic year, school districts are again pulling out all the stops. Despite a modest increase to public school funding in the recently adopted 2014-15 state biennium budget, the gains won’t be shared equally among school districts. Some won’t see a dime in new state revenue. And none of the increases will make up for the massive $1.3 billion in hits that education took in the 2012-13 biennium budget. What’s worse, this year also promises even more hardship to schools as the effects of the federal sequester — aka as irresponsible inaction in the U.S. Congress — will force a loss of about $66 million in federal aid to Ohio public schools, most of it hurting poorer students or those with special needs. The growth in community schools and voucher programs will also siphon away increasingly more dollars from public school districts. Collectively, the challenges loom large. And while the state-of-the art buildings may motivate some students to higher performance, in and of themselves they merely crack at the edges of Ohio’s more structural struggle to improve its long-standing dysfunctional system of funding public education. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 23 2014 at 8:59pm
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I was driving and saw signs someone intends to tear down Cutter Hall at Ohio University i n Athens, built in 1816 and still functioning. Why?  ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Iron Man
Date Posted: Mar 23 2014 at 9:20pm
| Excellent article, thank you acclaro! |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 23 2014 at 10:31pm
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The oxymoron; broke city facing financial turbulence that selfishly avoids putting cash into its infratsructure, but thinks its a good deal to spend $ 1 Mm to get $ 1 Mm from the state to tear down houses. A terrible school system espouses it needs taxpayers to pay $55 Mm to get $40 Mm because the cowardly state politicians have a broken funding system, which is partially remedied by the state running an unconstitutional system, augments its guilt, by partial funding of new buildings that do nothing to advance student education....but it obviates guilty conscious by using the taxpayer dime. Amazing.  ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Mar 24 2014 at 1:10pm
| Iron Man. You're wrong about Roosevelt. It was offered and would have been practically given away had there been someone interested in purchasing it. There were no offers and no interest for over two years. Should the board have let it sit for another two years and let it turn into an eyesore, or spent a lot of money keeping up a building they had no use for or tear it down? After a lot of effort to sell/give away the building there was no interest and the board chose to tear it down. Not a good outcome but the only feasible option. |
Posted By: hugh jape
Date Posted: Mar 24 2014 at 1:44pm
| Everyone may want to review Superintendent Isons contract. I understand that he receives a bonus if the Bond issue passes. So....if you successfully raise MY taxes you get a bonus paid for by MY taxes? |
Posted By: Iron Man
Date Posted: Mar 24 2014 at 1:46pm
The school board never marketed the property, so that's not surprising. |
processor wrote:Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 24 2014 at 2:12pm
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The school levy should be DEFEATED because: 1) Middletown's student population is shrinking. 2) It let its roads and infrastructure fall apart driving out residents and businesses. 3) It will have no effect upon enhancing enrollment or MCSD ever achieving a SATISFACTORY rating, let alone an EXCELLENT. 4. It will drive housing demand further; SEE houses that sold because owners wanted out- Slagle, Bidwell, Nerman, others. 5. Ison or any super should not be compensated financially for campaign abilities or lack thereof. Sidebar- No effort was spent in marketing any Middletown school building. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: hugh jape
Date Posted: Mar 24 2014 at 3:29pm
| I am rather insulted that the schools want to raise my taxes when they are doing so poorly academically. Ison, Lolli and the gang need to focus time and MY tax money on educating the students much better than they currently are instead of running a campaign and building new schools. Why should I give MORE tax money to them when they are doing a poor job of educating our students as it is now? New buildings with the same teachers and superintendent will mean the same results in new schools while I am paying for both with higher taxes. |
Posted By: enough is enough
Date Posted: Mar 24 2014 at 9:57pm
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There are many wonderful teachers in the district. I have on many occasions witnessed this myself. Our BOE had the wonderful wisdom to bring Lolli into our district after Monroe had became wise to her tyrannical approach of its my way or the highway. Stop blaming teachers for all that is wrong with this district and put the blame on the BOE for hiring poor administrators. Price, Rasmussen, Lolli and the lost could go on and on. If the citizens of Middletown really knew what was going on with this administration they would be demanding that heads roll. The BOE chooses to believe that what Lolli says is the gospel truth. I would not hire Lolli to walk my dog, she might bite him. Do not be fooled, Lolli running the district. A BIG NO VOTE from me. ------------- Enough is Enough |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 25 2014 at 12:33am
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Somewhere, Mrs. Andrew is monitoring this blog. Where do we stand with Dr. Lolli? Where is she on her contract---first year, second year, third year? Does the board realize the negative impact that she is having on the staff (teachers) and the district. Why was she even considered for her position? I have heard that she is/has been very mean-spirited in her dealings with staff. Can she go? What do I know, I'm just 1 chmoore? |
Posted By: hugh jape
Date Posted: Mar 25 2014 at 9:22am
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I agree that we have a number of wonderful teachers. Lolli is a major problem. She is a tyrant and as you said its "my way of the highway". She needs to go! Ison is at fault as well as he allows her to act this way Is it legal to have levy signs on school property? I don't think it is yet MCSD has them on their school property
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 25 2014 at 10:12am
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Why does this school district keep hiring Monroe's problem children? Don't they read the news? Are they not informed as to the baggage these two Monroe people bring with them? Did they not see what Lolli and Thorpe did to the Monroe school district? Why even consider them for hire? Aren't they asking for potential problems? ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Mar 25 2014 at 11:09am
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Enough is Enough, chmoore1, Hugh Jape, Interesting comments. I agree that we have some wonderful teachers, but we also have many who are not wonderful. Also some of the wonderful teachers are very nice, helpful, concerned, but are not effective in teaching our students. In order for the district to improved it's test scores, the teachers will HAVE to CHANGE their approach AND be Held ACCOUNTABLE for their results, or lack of results. Lolli and others are taking a lot of flack from teachers who are set in their ways and are unwilling to change. Of course those teachers who are resisting changing their approach will claim that the Admin is a bunch of tyrants. Change is hard but is necessary for the district to improve. Enough is Enough, I agree that Price was not effective but completely disagree about Rasmussen. Rasmussen made many changes that are starting to help the district's performance. It's too early to know about Ison. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 25 2014 at 1:00pm
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My father's best friend was Deacon Diehl (sorry if I have misspelled his last name), whom was superintendent when Middletown actually commanded some degree of respect both academically and socio-economically. obviously pre 1985 era. Undoubtedly, there are bad teachers in every district; same with administrators. It appears Middletown suffers from an administration that hires its admin staff from top school districts, ergo, Monroe, Lebanon, that aren't equipped for the demographic alteration inflicted upon Middletown and the MCSD. If a company is bankrupt, or close to it, a Board would go out and find a turn-around expert. Instead, MCSD, and the city, goes out and finds a Google or IBM equivalent; ergo Lolli, Gilleland, current council members, that are not equipped with the skills, particularly leadership, that are necessary with the conditions in the district similar to an under-performing company. The state has a curriculum, including Common Core, which Pence in Indiana recently abolished, that doesn't give a teacher much latitude to make changes to an approach to teaching. Additionally, supers are hired to be rain-makers, just like university Presidents, for fund raising, and below college., to pass levies. Lolli is a COO, Ison, is a CEO, supposed to be the fluff and buff guy, that gets votes for levies. Instead of replacing aged buildings, perhaps it is time to replace aged school board members, tenured (K McNeil, others), and bring in turn around administrators. Something tells me the super in Indian Hills or Oakwood would struggle in Middletown, other than coming from a stellar district. My biggest problem and issue with the BOE is its tethering approach to the city council and city leaders. One doesn't tether with the entity that brought forth demographics that caused the performance problems as friendly chums. While teachers get the blame, whom rarely double nor triple dip, after years of instruction, the true enemy is the city leaders and council members, whom have stood by and watched a once decent system and city crumble, and all ask.... why? Its the leadership void. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: hugh jape
Date Posted: Mar 25 2014 at 1:44pm
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Again, Ison or fluff and buff gets a bonus to pass levies, I find this insulting. If ison is fluff and buff then Lolli is huff and puff for he treatment of employees. |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Mar 25 2014 at 4:00pm
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Hugh Jape -- Ison's contract does not provide for a bonus if the bond levy (or any other levy) passes. I negotiated and signed the agreement, so I know. You have been given wrong information. Acclaro -- Rasmussen came from Wichita, a school district with very similar demographics to Middletown (just much bigger). Lolli, before Monroe, was Superintendent in Barberton Ohio, a district considered by the state to be one of 20 comparable districts demographically to Middletown. Ison moved Lebanon HIgh from Continous Improvement to Excellent in I think 8 years. They are proven leaders. All -- the levy campaign committee made a mistake on the timing of the signs. They were focused on getting signs up before early voting begins April 1st, and didn't realize the 30 days runs backward from election day, not early voting. It was not intentional. It is not illegal to place the signs on school property. If any of the big signs have been placed improperly in the right of way, if you leave a message with the location with the superintendent's office, he will see that the sign is moved.
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Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Mar 25 2014 at 5:41pm
| But will they take the signs down until the proper time? Probably not! Will they be cited by the city? Probably not! If I did that with a sign you can bet id be cited! MMMMM |
Posted By: enough is enough
Date Posted: Mar 25 2014 at 5:44pm
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processor Can you please give me a couple of examples of the programs that Rasmussen implemented that have proven successful for the district? Thank you in advance. ------------- Enough is Enough |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 25 2014 at 7:06pm
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Upon reflection, I was contemplating how many beautiful buildings just in Ohio at Kenyon College there are where my sibling attended college. Kenyon was founded in 1827, the oldest private school in Ohio. It also has numerous buildings in use including a dorm, built around 1830. Isn't it astounding a college can provide housing 24/7 in a 150 year old building, but purging Vail for 95 Mm is on the ballot? Yes....I know, its "our turn" to put the hand in the state fund cookie jar. Buildings don't teach and instruct. Enrollment down. Continuous Improvement rating playing for a decade or longer, like a record stuck on one song spinning aimlessly. As for Price, Rasmussen, Ison, others to come, my crystal ball sees CI on the distant horizon for years to come. Spending $95 Mm for a broken record player is simply fool hardy. Gee....how does Kenyon, Ohio Wesleyen, Miami, OU, ONU, Wittenburg, and others do it, having students and faculty in aged buildings and maintain exceptional rankings? Paraphrasing Bill Clinton mildly...."its the teaching stupid, not the building." I for one can't wait for the mass signs to be placed on the weekend before the election in May, the "levy surge" as it is fondly called. The Wolves on Wall Street (strike that), Main Street come out in force.  ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 12:22am
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Acclaro: just a couple of corrections: Deacon Diehl was never a Superintendent in Middletown Schools (maybe Dean of Boys). Second: replacing the Middle School isn't $95M; it's estimated at $40M (coincidentally, the amount the state owes MCSD); third: "Gee....how does Kenyon, Ohio Wesleyen, Miami, OU, ONU, Wittenburg, and others do it, having students and faculty in aged buildings and maintain exceptional rankings?": completely different funding mechanisms ("apples to oranges"). Those universities might spend $90M on total renovation of a comparable building to MMS, not $40M. Then raise tuition to cover the salaries, etc. But, what do I know? I'm just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 12:26am
| Acclaro: also, if a student doesn't "make the grade" at the university,(rank high academically) he flunks out and moves on. In the public school system, he doesn't flunk "out" but stays on---or moves on to another district. just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:07am
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MS ANDREW: "All -- the levy campaign committee made a mistake on the timing of the signs. They were focused on getting signs up before early voting begins April 1st, and didn't realize the 30 days runs backward from election day, not early voting. It was not intentional" I'M SURE IT WASN'T INTENTIONAL MS. ANDREW. NOW, TO THE QUESTION.....WILL YOU BE TAKING THE SIGNS DOWN UNTIL THE LEGAL MOMENT YOU WILL ABLE TO SET THEM UP, OR WILL YOU DECIDE TO BREAK THE LAW IN TOWN BY DISREGARDING THE ORDINANCE DIRECTING POLITICAL SIGN ACTIVITY? KEEP IN MIND THAT IN PAST ELECTIONS, SOME, WHO HAVE PLACED ILLEGAL SIGNS HAVE BEEN MADE TO ABIDE BY THE CITY LAWS AND HAVE HAD THEM REMOVED. I WOULD THINK YOU AND YOUR LEVY SUPPORTERS WOULD CARE ENOUGH TO ABIDE BY THE LAW ALSO. ADMITTING THAT IT WAS A MISTAKE, BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, AND NOT SEEING IT CORRECTED, LENDS AN AIRE OF DISHONESTY, SPECIAL FAVORS FOR SELECTED PEOPLE/CAUSES IN TOWN AND THE "MISTAKE" COMMENT LOSES IT'S APPEAL, AND I KNOW YOU WANT TO STAY AWAY FROM THAT, DON'T YOU? ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:14am
chmoore1, could you tell us how many students are held back a grade or two for academic deficiencies nowadays? During my time in the Midd. schools, it was not uncommon to see students held back a grade, but in more recent times, I haven't seen that to be the case. It is almost as if the school system wants the poor performer/ trouble-maker kids out of their sight and gone, so they pass them to the next level, ready of not, with the sole purpose of purging the kids who are not wanted as quickly as possible. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:21am
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Does this make the upcoming school levy null and void since we now have a violation of election signage? Could this be challenged or is breaking the law acceptable for some in this city? How about a ruling on this LAW DIERECTOR Leslie Landen. Let's hear your interpretation of what has happened. Got a prediction on the answer.  Would be entertaining to see how 'ole Leslie maneuvers around this one using his finest legal jibberish. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:47am
| VV: no, I can't (tell you how many students are held back a grade or two for academic deficiencies nowadays). However, it doesn't make sense that the school system wants the poor performer/ trouble-maker kids out of their sight and gone, so they pass them to the next level, ready of not, with the sole purpose of purging the kids who are not wanted as quickly as possible. Unless the student moves out of the district, he is still the school district's responsibility. In fact, the district does everything possible to keep a student in the district (graduation rates do count). With this procedure,(purging) the student wouldn't be "purged" until he graduates anyway. Again, a teacher can only work with what they have. If a student's ability and desire isn't there, and the parents' desire to push (motivate the child) isn't there, then the teacher must work with what IS there. just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 7:03am
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chmoore1; Mr. Diehl was a principal and then superintendent, or equivalent. His son in law is now city manager in Franklin. However, the point was to indicate I comprehend as do most, education is important and we all have relatives whom are in education as teachers or admins. Secondly, I am unsure what you mean by the statement, Ohio owes Middletown $40 Mm ? You mean because Ohio deemed it unconstitutional )rather, the Supreme Court), and therefore the state set aside funding cycles, and its Middletown's turn in cycle? The taxpayers pay for this rebuilding out of taxpayer money. I disagree completely that the comparison between an aged college or university school building is apple to orange. It reflects aged buildings are commonly used, while in K-12, common practice is to destroy them. I printed an article out the Dispatch which opines the rationale for Ohio's practice, which is to provide some degree of equity in buildings, This in part, was to level the playing field and eliminate guilt associated with the lack of proper funding the school system within the state, which property tax is not. I have repeatedly advocated interactive capabilities is the best means of maximizing a ROI on education, K-12, and higher education, in degree of value, than a physical structure. I also find it strange Ohio adheres to LEED guidelines, but does nothing using solar. Go figure. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 7:11am
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chmoore1, I missed addressing one of your final points. Middletown is using a key rationale for the levy, attracting more students through open enrollment, precisely the type of student you describe, the one that academically cannot cut it. In turn, scores stay on CI. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 7:44am
SOMEHOW, GIVEN THE ANEMIC ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE OF THIS DISTRICT, I FIND IT DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE THAT ANYONE WOULD BE ATTRACTED TO OPEN ENROLL HERE. LOSING STUDENTS AT A HIGH RATE I BELIEVE, BUT THERE CAN'T BE MUCH SUCCESS ON TAKERS TO JOIN THIS DISTRICT. AS TO OPEN ENROLLMENT ATTRACTION, IS IT MORE IMPORTANT TO HAVE SHINY NEW BUILDINGS (BUT NO POSITIVE OUTPUT SO FAR (ELEMENTARIES)), OR WOULD MOM AND DAD BE MORE INCLINED TO SEND JUNIOR HERE BASED ON HIGH ACADEMIC EXCELLENCE (WHICH HAS BEEN ABSENT SINCE THE 60'S HERE), EVEN IF IT WERE IN OLDER BUILDINGS. DOES NO GOOD FOR JUNIOR TO GO TO SCHOOL IN NEW BUILDINGS IF HE COMES OUT OF THEM NOT KNOWING HOW TO ADD, SUBTRACT......WRITE A COMPLETE SENTENCE.....OR BALANCE A CHECK BOOK. ALSO DOES NO GOOD TO HAVE NEW BUILDINGS HERE IF THEY GO ON TO MUM AND MUM HAS TO SET UP REMEDIAL CLASSES TO BRING THE MIDD KIDS UP TO FRESHMAN YEAR POTENTIAL. JUST FLAT OUT SOUNDS LIKE SOME OF THE KIDS WHO EARN A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA FROM THIS DISTRICT, AND WANT TO GO ON TO COLLEGE, ARE UNPREPARED FOR THAT NEXT STEP. POSITIVE CONTENT, NOT NEW BUILDING SURFACE FLUFF IS THE REAL ISSUE, ISN'T IT? ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 7:47am
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Acclaro: you wrote: "Secondly, I am unsure what you mean by the statement, Ohio owes Middletown $40 Mm ? You mean because Ohio deemed it unconstitutional )rather, the Supreme Court), and therefore the state set aside funding cycles, and its Middletown's turn in cycle? The taxpayers pay for this rebuilding out of taxpayer money." My statement was simple: currently, the State of Ohio---whether it was unconstitutional, etc. or not---will provide Middletown with $40M to proceed with their Master Plan if Middletown passes its levy now. If it doesn't pass now, the money will go "poof" and will be lost to Middletown. I understand that we, the taxpayers of the State of Ohio, have provided that money. God, this gets monotonous having to explain everything again---things that have already been discussed in detail. As a response to the "open enrollment" statement, the number of students brought into MCSD by open enrollment is minimal. However, keeping the number of students LOST to other districts has been mentioned by Sam Ison in his statements. Once again, my statement on comparison of State/Private colleges to K-12 renovations is that colleges renovate on an entirely different level than public schools; therefore, the cost is extremely high, and the ability to recoup their "ROI"---passed on to tuition costs, donors, state funding---is not equal to K-12 funding methods. just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 9:25am
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chmoore1- with all due respect, I take umbrage to your "speak down" mindset. I certainly comprehend the fact the money goes away from the state; I fully comprehend the reason Ohio did this, and I fully comprehend after running multi $Bb business units, no entity simply spends an outrageous fee, in this case, $55 Mm, to gain $40 Mm. Using your logic, although there clearly is no benefit to education, your argument is truly- we have to grab the money as if its some sort of a bargain. Further, to state students leave the district because of Vail is not proven by facts, but supposition. However, I will broaden your argument that more people (potential residents), and businesses avoid Middletown precisely for the point you made. And that is, not because of Vail, but because of the poor school district's rating. If you argue parents move their students out because of Vail, then you know residents flee (if they could- it only takes about 2-7 years to sell a Middletown home), and avoid moving in, on a broader issue, that being the red flag associated with the worst rating in Butler Cty and southeastern Ohio. Building this school will have exactly the opposite effect you state. Residents will leave, new residents (potential) will avoid, and the net sum impact is a net loss, with the exception of expense. I encourage the reasoned voter to consider the effects of Middletown neglecting roads and infrastructure in the stack rank of priorities, in contrast to money on a building having no impact in a district making no progress to climb out of the box of continuous improvement. If Middletown wasn't filled with OPER folks, this vote would be 65-35 in opposition. I repeat, as I hate to do.....the building will do exactly the inverse of what is being stated by driving out existing residents, preventing others to move in, and saddling those paying the bill with crumbling streets and a school with a declining population. Most get this. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: itsamee
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 9:38am
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I dont think the problem is the declining student population and whether or not they need a bigger facility. I think the problem is the current facility is a mess. If you have never been in the building (Vail), I urge you to take a look at it, and also think of the current expense on the tax payers. The building is so old that it cannot be heated or cooled adequately. Some parts of it are dangerous (like the top floor ceiling tiles which have fallen at random), and the constant money-pit it has become in maintenance. Sure, there might be declining enrollment, but the students that remain should still be able to attend a school that is at least safe and comfortable. And before you all get high and mighty on the "well, when I went to school they didnt have heat" think, some of these students will not get heat at home or even food. For some of these kids, it is the only place of shelter. ------------- Itsa me, mario! |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 9:50am
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I am confused by your post. Students don't get free meals? The building has been that neglected? How does Franklin do it in their building for the middle. junior school? Perhaps Middletown should have given some buildings for shelter, and heat, based on what you have stated? So the school district and levy passage is now based upon a need for a homeless shelter, and not education? Ironic many college educated students cannot find jobs today. Obviously, you feel a school building for shelter is more important that roads and sewers. I disagree. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: itsamee
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 10:52am
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I do not put the issues together. Middletown, the city, has to pass their own taxes in order to fix roads and sewers. That has little to do with a school trying to rebuild. If you would like to pay a tax increase in order to fix infrastructure, tell the powers that be. I am sure they would be happy to put that on a ballot. For the school, due to the way they are funded, it has to go to a vote. I would rather not pay for an additional school to be built. I would rather keep my taxes lower and pay less monthly, but, in reality, there is no other way to get a new school building than to pay for it. Vail is old and deteriorating quickly. While I voted "No" last time, I am probably going to vote "yes" this time because I have come to see a new building as more than just a school. For many, it is the only time they will have an adult speak positively into their lives, some go simply to get food or shelter, others to avoid bad-family lives. Others still to get an education and make something of themselves. ------------- Itsa me, mario! |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 11:13am
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We obviously disagree with the nature of public education. You see it as a means of a meal and shelter. I see it as a mandate for excellence and performance measured against its peers, and teaching those to lead productive lives in society. From what you describe, a child facing such problems would not perform well in school, or the majority in such a position, an exception, not the rule. chmoore1's position is the school must be built because: 1) We have a deal on the table- get $40 Mm from state. Regardless of the consequence and benefit. 2) It facilitates the potential (hope), less students will leave. Both the city and school district share the same primary goal- eliminating attrition (students), than building economic engine and accompanying revenue, and tax base. As for your comment on infrastructure; it isn't taxes needed; rather, the city needs to put its dedicated allotment back on the city ordinance. You actually expect a building to have a priority than infrastructure to keep and bring in the tax base? It won't occur. To date, the reasons for voting for a levy? 1) Bargain shopping at Macy's, the gift horse of $40 Mm. Doesn't sell. 2) Ison- "city revitalization"- combine the gyms at MUM, middle school, and such as a destination. Doesn't sell, and rather elementary. 3) Keeping the fleeing students in check, at the cost of $95 Mm; unsound, and doesn't sell. 4) A shelter for the student in bad socio-economic conditions. That is not a school mission nor duty. If there is such a need, donate money to church, charities, et al. To date after a few years of effort, just not advancing a compelling reason to vote YES. As Larry Mulligan stated in his SOTHU or town address; "its time to change processes and costs before going to the tax-payer." " ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 11:56am
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While agreeing with acclaro, I just have to respond to this..... itsamee: "And before you all get high and mighty on the "well, when I went to school they didnt have heat" think, some of these students will not get heat at home or even food. For some of these kids, it is the only place of shelter" I AM VOTING NO ON A SCHOOL LEVY TO BUILD/ADD ON TO THE SCHOOLS. I AM NOT VOTING ON A SOCIAL PROGRAM TO SHELTER AND FEED KIDS WHO WERE BROUGHT INTO THIS WORLD WHERE THE DAM PARENTS WON'T TAKE THE RESPONSIBILTY TO RAISE THEM. IT IS NOT MY JOB TO PROVIDE MONEY TO HOME FEED, PROVIDE HOME HEAT NOR SHELTER KIDS OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOL ENVIRONMENT. IT IS MY JOB TO PROVIDE MONEY TOWARD EDUCATING THE KIDS AS PREVIOUS GENERATIONS HAVE DONE.....AND, FOR THE LONGEST TIME, IT HASN'T COME CLOSE TO BEING WORTH THE MONEY EITHER. HARD APPROACH BUT YA GOTTA DRAW THE LINE IN THE SAND SOMEWHERE. AREN'T OUR BUDGETS STRAINED ENOUGH WITH THE EXCESSIVE SOCIAL "HELP ME/HELP ME" PROGRAMS THAT THE SOCIAL DO-GOODERS HAVE FORCED ON US THAT WE HAVE TO NOW, PAY FOR HOME BUDGETS FOR PEOPLE WHO CAN'T SEEM TO HANDLE THE STRUGGLES OF LIFE? ACCLARO IS RIGHT. FAMILIES, ALONG WITH THEIR KIDS ARE MOVING OUT BECAUSE OF THE LOUSY, DUMB-DOWN ACADEMICS OFFERED BY THIS DISTRICT. THEY AREN'T MOVING OUT DUE TO THE CONDITION OF A SCHOOL LIKE VAIL. HELL, IF THEIR KID WAS GOING TO VAIL AND WAS LEARNING SOMETHING AND SHOWED EXCELLENCE IN THEIR EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCE, THE PARENTS WOULDN'T GIVE A DAM WHERE THEY WERE LEARNING, BUT THEY WOULD BE HAPPY WITH THE RESULTS. VAIL WAS JUST FINE IN THE 60'S AS MIDDLETOWN HIGH SCHOOL AS TO HEATING. DIDN'T HAVE THE ISSUE OF COOLING, EVEN DURING SUMMER SCHOOL, WHEN IT WAS AS HOT AS HELL IN THE CLASSROOM, BECAUSE PEOPLE LIVED WITH IT THEN. AS A STUDENT IN A HOT CLASSROOM, WITH FANS AS THE ONLY AIR MOVEMENT, YOU LEARNED TO TOLERATE IT AND MOVED ON. NO COTTLING. NO "THOSE POOR KIDS" COMMENTS. ALL OF YOU SUPPORTERS FOR NEW SCHOOLS......TELL ME HOW THOSE ELEMENTARIES ARE DOING ON DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENTS IN ACADEMIC PROGRESS DUE TO THAT NEW LEARNING ENVIRONMENT YOU PROVIDED YEARS AGO. TELL ME HOW THE NEW ELEMENTARIES CONTRIBUTED TO A MAJOR IMPROVEMENT IN THE DISTRICT IMAGE AS TO ATTRACTING NEW RESIDENTS OR UPGRADING THE COMMUNITY. NO? NO REAL CHANGE YOU SAY? I THOUGHT SO....THEN WHY ARE YOU SO ENERGIZED ABOUT ROUND TWO OF NEW BUILDINGS WHEN ROUND ONE DIDN'T DO SQUAT? NOT LOGICAL. ONCE WAS BAD ENOUGH. WHY DO YOU WANT TO BE THEIR FOOL TWICE?.....IT DIDN'T DO ANY GOOD PEOPLE. IT WAS A WASTE OF MONEY AND YOUR TIME TO VOTE FOR IT......JUST AS IT WILL BE THIS TIME. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 12:23pm
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ITSAMEE: "Middletown, the city, has to pass their own taxes in order to fix roads and sewers. That has little to do with a school trying to rebuild. If you would like to pay a tax increase in order to fix infrastructure, tell the powers that be. I am sure they would be happy to put that on a ballot" SCHOOLS AND STREETS DON'T HAVE TO CONNECT AS TO COMPARISON. WHEN MONEY IS AT A PREMIUM, THE FEDS, THE STATE, THE CITY AND THE OLD HOME BUDGET MUST MAKE A LIST OF PRIORITIES TO PLACE MONIES ON THE MOST NEED. THIS TOWN IS IN MORE NEED OF BETTER STREETS, SEWERS AND BRIDGES THAN IT IS IN NEED OF REPLACING AN "AGING SCHOOL STRUCTURE" AND ADDING ON TO A HIGH SCHOOL THAT HAS A DECLINING ENROLLMENT. SIMPLE CONCEPT ON WHERE THE MOST VALUE FOR THE TAXPAYER'S MONEY SHOULD BE DIRECTED. AGAIN, THE STREETS AND INFRASTRUCTURE FINANCING WAS IN PLACE AT ONE TIME IN THE 80'S. THE MONEY WAS REMOVED FROM THE STREET FUNDS AT THE BALLOT WHEN THE VOTERS WERE TOLD THE CITY HAD AN EMERGENCY NEED FOR THE MONEY AND IT NEEDED TO BE REMOVED TO PLACE ELSEWHERE IN THE BUDGET. A NEW BALLOT WAS NEVER PRESENTED TO THE VOTER PLACING THE MONEY BACK INTO THE STREET FUND ONCE THE "EMERGENCY" WAS OVER. IN ESSENCE, BACK IN THE 80'S, THE DAM CITY LIED TO THE PEOPLE AS TO IT'S INTENTIONS NOT TO EVER REPLACE THE MONEY ONCE IT WAS APPROVED TO MOVE IT. ITSAMEE: "because I have come to see a new building as more than just a school. For many, it is the only time they will have an adult speak positively into their lives, some go simply to get food or shelter, others to avoid bad-family lives." BUT WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE A NEW BUILDING TO ACCOMPLISH THIS? CAN'T THE KID GET THE SOCIAL SERVICES YOU WANT TO SEE IN AN OLDER BUILDING? ISN'T THE IDEA THAT THEY GET THE SERVICE, NOT THE CONDITION OF THE FACILITY WHERE THEY GET IT? AGAIN, THERE ARE SOCIAL SERVICES OUTSIDE THE SCHOOL ENVIRONMENT THAT CAN PROVIDE WHAT YOU ARE ASKING FOR. LET THE SCHOOLS BE A PLACE TO "ATTEMPT TO LEARN" (IN MIDDLETOWN'S CASE)LEAVE THE SOCIAL WORK TO THE AGENCIES WHO HANDLE THAT. SCHOOL FUNDING YOU SAY? FOR MANY YEARS WE HAVE BEEN PAYING FOR SCHOOLS THAT HAS BEEN DEEMED UNCONSTITUTIONAL. THE LAZY LEGISLATORS NEED TO GET UP OFF THEIR A-- AND ENFORCE THE COURT'S DECISION. FROM A LEGAL STANDPOINT, ISN'T GAINING MONEY THROUGH A LEVY ILLEGAL?...OR IS THAT INFO. WRONG? DUNNO ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 1:05pm
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Acclaro: you wrote: chmoore1's position is the school must be built because: 1) We have a deal on the table- get $40 Mm from state. Regardless of the consequence and benefit. 2) It facilitates the potential (hope), less students will leave. Please check my post. I did not say that my position was either of these. What you will find is that I corrected your statements. (1) the new building will NOT cost the taxpayers $95M, given that the state owes MCSD $40M; and (2)it is not my opinion that this will reverse the loss of students to open enrollment. I was responding to your statement about open enrollment. Once again, it's monotonous going over this time and again. On a side note, for both you and VV, and this is not for an argument--just your thoughts---what can we do with "Vail" to bring it up to date? As I see it, if we aren't going to build new (replacement just for MMS), then it must be remodeled. As you see it, how much? $20M? $30M? And, more importantly, where will the money come from? Will you support a completely separate levy to fund a "total renovation" similar to Hughes High School in Cincinnati? (I will look on-line and see what the cost for Hughes was, and post when I find it). just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 1:56pm
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Hughes High School (Renovation) (University Heights, 2515 Clifton Ave) — Construction completed on the renovation of Classical Building for final size of 290,873 square feet for 1,200 students. Students moved August 2008 into Professional Building and an annex at back of campus while renovation work was under way. The annex will be retained for future expansion. The renovated building opened August 2010. Architect: Cole+Russell, Fanning/Howey, Moody Nolan Building Construction Cost: $36,017,971 Withrow High School (Renovation) (Hyde Park, 2520 Madison Rd) — Withrow University moved into renovated north wings over Spring Break 2007. Withrow International moved into renovated south wings in April 2006. Gymnasium, kitchen and cafeteria completed the renovation in Fall 2006. Demolition of vocational building, renovation of stadium and completion of site work finished in August 2007. Architect: Cole+Russell and Fanning/Howey Building Construction Cost: $38,539,594 Total Project Cost: $43,145,719 (includes such things as site preparation, demolition) Source: http://www.cps-k12.org/about-cps/facilities-master-plan/fmp-schools VV/Acclaro: for comparison purposes with Middletown Middle School total renovation. just 1chmoore |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 2:03pm
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Woodward High School (New Construction/Existing Site) (Bond Hill, 7005 Reading Rd) — Construction completed on a 261,870-square-foot school for 1,200 students with three wings designed for three career-technical programs. This is CPS’ first new high school building since 1962. Students moved into the new building as of the first day of the 2006-07 school year, on August 22, 2006. The dedication and ribbon-cutting ceremony was held on September 15, 2006. Architect: Steed Hammond Paul + DH Architects Building Construction Cost: $40,053,392 Total Project Cost: $47,765,066 (includes such things as site preparation, demolition) Source: http://www.cps-k12.org/about-cps/facilities-master-plan/fmp-schools For comparison w/new construction, Middletown Middle School. just 1chmoore |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 2:18pm
| Viet Vet, in response to your question, will the levy campaign take down the signs until April 5, I cannot answer because i don't make decisions for the campaign committee. But I do wonder, what purpose would it serve, now that the signs are up, to take them all down and put them back up 10 days later? And who, or what, is harmed by the signs staying up for the interim 10 days? I understand you, and others, are angry about the signs. But you would have been angry even if they didn't go up the first time until April 5, and you will still be angry if they are put back up April 5. Mostly, because they are a reminder that some people disagree with your view and support a tax to build the new schools. Some people are angry about the signs being placed on school property, but that is legal, so the anger about that is misplaced. Some people are angry because they think the schools paid for the signs, but they did not -- people and businesses donated money to the bond campaign to pay for the signs and the flyers. The city, whose ordinance it is, has not asked or demanded that the campaign take the signs down temporarily. Other polical candidates have signs up that were placed even before the school bond campaign signs. Last November, some people complained that there were very few signs, and they did not go up until about a week before the election, so the accusation was that the schools were trying to ambush voters by sneaking a bond issue on the ballot (even though the campaign had gone door to door with flyers then, too). It seems the campaign is damned either way. |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 3:03pm
| Ms Andrews: I don't think it's about which side you may be on for the levy what it IS about is the blatant, in your face, some rules apply to some people and not others. Let's inforce the rules FAIRLY and CONSISTANTLY across the board. I think you can understand "the law is the law" |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 3:05pm
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chmoore1: "On a side note, for both you and VV, and this is not for an argument--just your thoughts---what can we do with "Vail" to bring it up to date? As I see it, if we aren't going to build new (replacement just for MMS), then it must be remodeled" VAIL UPDATES? IF IT IS TOO COSTLY TO REDO THE ENTIRE HEATING AND COOLING SYSTEMS HOW ABOUT INSTALLING SOME LEIBERT STAND-ALONE HEATING/COOLING UNITS IN CLASSROOMS AND TOTALLY BYPASSING THE OLD SYSTEM? SOME ELECTRIC- SOME IN-ROOM DUCTWORK AND IT'S ACTIVATED. NO WALL TEAROUTS, NO MAJOR DAMAGE. EASY TO REPAIR IN EACH ROOM. NO WINDOW AIR CONDITIONERS TO DEAL WITH. SOMEONE MENTIONED INTERNAL CEILING TILE DAMAGE. ROOF WATER LEAK? HOW ABOUT A METAL ROOF FOR THE HIGH SCHOOL? INITIAL COST WOULD BE HIGH BUT THE METAL ROOF WOULD LAST A LONG TIME, RIGHT? IS REPLACING A METAL ROOF CHEAPER THAN BUILDING A WHOLE NEW SCHOOL......PROBABLY CONSIDERABLY CHEAPER, LEIBERTS INCLUDED. WHAT OTHER MAJOR ISSUES ARE WRONG AT VAIL? LIKE OLD ROOSEVELT ON CENTRAL, VAIL HAS RELATIVELY NEW WINDOWS DOESN'T IT? ROOSEVELTS RELATIVELY NEW WINDOWS WENT TO THE DUMP DIDN'T THEY? WHY WEREN'T THEY SALVAGED AND USED AS REPLACEMENTS AT VAIL. SAME KIND OF WINDOW, RIGHT? THAT TAKES CARE OF THE HEATING/COOLING, ROOF AND WINDOWS. WOOD FLOORS OK IN THE BUILDING? THEY WERE THE LAST TIME I WAS THERE YEARS AGO. WHAT'S LEFT?.....STILL CHEAPER THAN MILLIONS FOR A NEW BUILDING. AS AN ALTERNATIVE, THE DISTRICT HAS A SCHOOL CALLED VERITY SITTING DOWN BY LEFFERSON PARK MOTHBALLED AND GOING TO WASTE. IT IS A MUCH NEWER SCHOOL THAN VAIL (AND IN A LITTLE BETTER AREA OF TOWN), IF AGE IS THE ISSUE HERE. IT ALSO HAS ACREAGE TO EXPAND THE BUILDING AND, PERHAPS ADD A SECOND FLOOR UNLESS THE STRUCTURE WON'T ACCEPT THE ADDED CONSTRUCTION OF COURSE. USE THIS SCHOOL FOR THE MIDDLE SCHOOL. WHY DOES THE SCHOOL BOARD AND THEIR FOLLOWERS HAVE TO HAVE IT ALL ON ONE "CAMPUS". HELL, YA GOT MILLER GYM AT THE OLD HIGH SCHOOL. BARNITZ STADIUM SITS DOWN BY ITSELF ON S. MAIN ST. BUILDINGS AND ACTIVITIES SPREAD ALL OVER THE PLACE. ALL OF THE "SUPPORT THE SCHOOL LEVY", "LET'S MAKE EVERYTHING NEW AND WE'LL PROSPER" PEOPLE ALWAYS WANT TO USE VAIL AS THE WHIPPING POST FOR A BOND APPROVAL EXAMPLE. YET, ALL OF THOSE SAME SUPPORTERS ARE PERFECTLY WILLING TO LET A MUCH NEWER SCHOOL THAN VAIL SIT AND ROT FOR NO GOOD REASON. WHY? ANDREW AND COMPANY WANT TO TEAR DOWN MANCHESTER JR. HIGH BUILT IN 1968 OR SO. ISN'T THAT NEW ENOUGH TO KEEP? DAM, WITH THE CURRENT THINKING WITH SOME SCHOOL PEOPLE, IF A BUILDING IS OVER 40 YEARS OLD, IT NEEDS TO BE REPLACED. WHY? (IF THAT'S THE CASE, BY THIS CRITERIA, ALL OF THE HOMES IN MIDDLETOWN, OLDER THAN 40, NEED TO BE RAZED INCLUDING THE S. MAIN ST. AND HIGHLANDS HOMES TOO, RIGHT?- THOUGHT I'D THROW THAT IN) WHY IS A HOME IN A HISTORIC PART OF TOWN SOUGHT BY SOME PROMINENT PEOPLE IN THIS CITY AND THE NEIGHBORHOOD PROTECTED AT ALL COSTS, BUT A SCHOOL, THAT HAS HISTORIC VALUE, SOMETHING TO BE REVILED AND DEMOLISHED? EVERYTIME THE STATE OR SOME GRANT PROGRAM OFFERS MATCHING MONEY, SCHOOL AND CITY PEOPLE LOOK FOR SOMETHING TO KNOCK DOWN, JUST BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE A GOOD DEAL MONEY-WISE........BUT WHAT ABOUT LOGIC-WISE OR ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATING SOME CONSTRAINT ON SPENDING FOR A CHANGE. PRUDENT BEHAVIOR APPARENTLY IS NOT IN THE SCHOOL OR CITY HIERARCHY DOCTRINE. SUPPORT ANY LEVY? NOPE. BASED ON PAST EXPENDITURES AND THE RESULTS OF THOSE VENTURES, THERE IS NO PROOF THAT ANY OF THE MONIES SPENT HAS HELPED IN ANY CAPACITY. THEREFORE, IT GOES IN THE FILE "RAMIFICATIONS OF DUMPING GOOD MONEY DOWN A RATHOLE" ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 3:06pm
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Ms. Andrew, I'm surprised at you. You're a lawyer. The reason that you take the signs down is because it is illegal. If you have a problem with that you have revealed something I never would have believed. Those of us who have had signs taken down in previous elections for no other reason except who we were running against understand the abuses. Others have gotten away with it because justice could not be found because of political favoritism. Ms. Andrew take the signs down and put them back up and build some respect for the law. If you don't know the law please read the ORC and the City Charter. But I know that you know the law better than most. Thank you. Paul Nagy |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 3:17pm
| Well I guess the city will open themselves up for a law suit for favoritism for not enforcing the law consistently. You can understand that, Ms. Andrew. May be your firm may have the change to defend someone who gets caught in the middle of this. You would certainly have grounds for dismissal. Just a thought. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 3:37pm
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Ms. Andrew: "But I do wonder, what purpose would it serve, now that the signs are up, to take them all down and put them back up 10 days later?" BECAUSE IT IS BREAKING THE LAW(ORDINANCE) ON THE BOOKS OF THE CITY OF MIDDLETOWN. I KNEW YOU WOULD COME UP WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS. INCREDIBLE RESPONSE, ESPECIALLY FROM SOMEONE WHO WORKS IN THE LEGAL PROFESSION. Ms. Andrew: "And who, or what, is harmed by the signs staying up for the interim 10 days?" I GUESS THE CANDIDATES THAT WERE TOLD TO TAKE THEIR SIGNS DOWN IN PRIOR ELECTIONS COULD HAVE ASKED THE SAME QUESTION. WHAT MAKES YOUR SCHOOL SIGNS SO SPECIAL THAT THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO STAY UP WHEN OTHERS WERE MADE TO ABIDE BY THE RULES? HOW ABOUT THOSE EQUAL RIGHTS IN THE LEGAL PROFESSION MS. ANDREW? DO THEY NOT APPLY HERE? Ms. Andrew: "But you would have been angry even if they didn't go up the first time until April 5, and you will still be angry if they are put back up April 5. Mostly, because they are a reminder that some people disagree with your view and support a tax to build the new schools" OK, USING COURTROOM DIALOGUE, YOU ARE OFFERING ASSUMPTIONS AND HERESAY COUNSELOR. Ms. Andrew: "The city, whose ordinance it is, has not asked or demanded that the campaign take the signs down temporarily." C'MON, THE CITY HAS NEVER SPOKEN FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE MS. ANDREW. YOU KNOW THIS. IT HAS BEEN QUITE OBVIOUS FOR YEARS. YOUR SCHOOL PEOPLE AND THE CITY WORK IN TANDEM (ROOM MATES NOW AT THE CITY BUILDING) AND HAVE YOUR OWN AGENDAS THAT DO NOT NECESSARILY LINK TO THE WANTS AND NEEDS OF THE MAJORITY LIVING IN THIS CITY. THAT IS REALITY MS. ANDREW. Ms. Andrew: "Other polical candidates have signs up that were placed even before the school bond campaign signs" I'M NOT AWARE OF THIS. AND THAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT COUNSELOR? BECAUSE OTHERS MAY HAVE PLACED SIGNS UP BEFORE THE TIME JUSTIFIES YOUR GROUP BREAKING THE LAW? YOU'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO STICK BY THAT STATEMENT? SERIOUSLY? Ms. Andrew: "Last November, some people complained that there were very few signs, and they did not go up until about a week before the election" AW, THOSE WERE THE PRO LEVY PEOPLE WHO WERE MAD THAT YOU DIDN'T TRY TO SHOVE IT DOWN OUR THROATS AT AN EARLIER DATE. I WOULDN'T WORRY ABOUT THAT. THEY'RE ON YOUR SIDE. Ms. Andrew: "so the accusation was that the schools were trying to ambush voters by sneaking a bond issue on the ballot (even though the campaign had gone door to door with flyers then, too" HEY THAT REMINDS ME, I WANT TO ASK FOR YOUR OPINION ON ONE OF YOUR VOLUNTEERS PLACING A PRO LEVY FLYER IN MY FRONT STORM DOOR WHEN THERE IS A BIG SIGN WITH BOLD LETTERS STATING "NO SOLICITING" (THAT MEANS POLITICAL CRAP TOO) EITHER THEY CAN'T READ, WHICH DOESN'T SURPRISE ME IF THEY ARE A MIDDLETOWN HIGH GRADUATE, OR, THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT "NO SOLICITING" MEANS, WHICH COULD ALSO BE A MIDDLETOWN HIGH GRADUATE. AND FINALLY..... Ms. ANdrew: "It seems the campaign is damned either way" WELL LET'S HOPE SO. NOW, BACK TO THE ORIGINAL ISSUE.....WILL YOU HAVE YOUR LEVY PEOPLE COMPLY WITH THE SIGN ORDINANCE OF THE CITY OF MIDDLETOWN OR WILL YOUR GROUP BE CONTENT WITH BREAKING THE LAW?.....OR IS THE THINKING THAT THE GROUP IS ABOVE THE LAW? ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 3:39pm
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Mr. Nagy, I read the ordinance again: CITY OF MIDDLETOWN, OHIO CODE OF ORDINANCES 1272.04 SIGN DEVELOPMENT STANDARDS. (7) Election signs. Political signs not exceeding 32 square feet in outside area, single or double faced, and maximum height of five feet in residential zones or without size restrictions in all other zones. Such sign shall not be animated or illuminated. Such signs shall not be placed earlier than 30 calendar days before any election. Such signs shall be removed by the property owner or lessee within one week following any election. No election sign shall be placed in the public right-of-way. This is not clear. "signs shall not be placed earlier than 30 calendar days before any election." It does not say "Election Day." It says "any election." Early voting starts April 1. Early voting is at least part of "any election." I think the ordinance was probably written long before early voting was an option, and now it is not clear how this ordinance should be interpreted -- from what does the 30 days run? It is up to the city to enforce its ordinance. Did the city cause you to remove your signs in past elections because of timing, or because they were placed in the right of way? I agree that if any bond campaign signs have been placed in the right of way, they should be moved. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 3:43pm
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chmoore1- in regards to correction, the issue was stated it will cost taxpayers $55 Mm in Middletown for receiving no benefit, increased tax burden, of which the state will ;pay $40 Mm. Indeed, if you pull my posts from a year ago, I clearly acknowledge the state matches funds throughout Ohio, which I indicated was associated with a quaisi means of dealing with the unconstitutionality of the school funding mechanism. Hence, I was not wrong. As for my offering an alternative to funding, the alleged declined condition of Vail appears to be associated with poor maintenance. How is it Oakwood High School can maintain a beautiful building constructed in the late 1920's that presently serves as its high school, also ranked a top high school in Ohio and the nation? Pride....and maintenance. The circuitous route you articulate is akin to the previous statement associated with fighting Franklin School District, that being; "you have to spend money to make money." My position has always been founded on facts, results, and benefit associated with expenditures. The building of a new school and advancing Middletown's rank will just not be accomplished. I firmly believe that as a fact, and also would never perceive $55 Mm in a cit dying, with a stated goal to reduce its population massively, to benefit the taxpayer period. It accomplishes nothing to build a school when the population is in decline, openly it has been admitted student population is down, and when the city doesn't care about its streets and infrastructure, it makes an intellectual mockery out of spending money for a building when its city infrastructure is in collapse associated with diverting funds. Candidly, it appears the city did not care about its infrastructure, and the school system maintaining a middle school. Ms. Andrew- I had no problem with the signs as I see the campaign messaging highly ineffective. Hence, putting them up 1.5 weeks or so before legally allowed dies not/ did not trouble me. But, I am troubled deeply by your statement the city had no problem with this. Of course they didn't. The city that was a prime contributor to property valuation destruction and the school district rankings, is tethered to the school system,. However, to ignore their own stated ordinance is as hypocritical as it gets- for both the BOE, school system, and the city law department. If the levy passes, it will drive housing values down and burdening further those that have seen their market value decline for 30 years. The most compelling fact associated with why this levy is negative and viewed so by most is illuminated by the sign in the Renaissance subdivision a few hundred yards from Bishop Fenwick High School, and where many existing council members have espoused their desire to reside. It says: " Warren County School Systems" are within their geographic jurisdiction. For any voter, as much as the Atrium area has been spoken about as the progressive area within Middletown's annexation, it highlights the Warren County School district for its affiliation, obviously associated with "performance." Spending money on the annual sale (state funding of $40 Mm) is a bad idea when the credit card has reached its limit. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 3:44pm
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VV: once again---no answer from you on a real solution. Perhaps you should go on a tour of MMS, since, admittedly, you haven't been in it since you graduated almost fifty years ago. "The wood floors were great when I travelled them 50 years ago---they have to be great now!" I was trying to work with you about a plan for renovation, but you don't have one. Throw in some Leibert units---that will work. No mention of ADA (a policy close to your heart), restroom modernization (or yeah, that's right, you peed in them 50 years ago, so they should still be great). No ADA access to Miller Gym, the cafeteria needs to be gutted, and the fourth floor ceiling is falling in. Also, I think we covered this in a previous post: to try dismantle the windows at Roosevelt to "maybe" reuse at Vail, wasn't practical (dismantle, move store, reinstall---costly). Sounds cool, but do we really know if they were the same size, plus damage and breakage dismantling them would be extensive. Please do this for us: how much would you suggest to spend on any upgrades, and how will you fund them. Please stick to this, and as a courtesy, don't use all capitalized letters. You don't need to "yell" at us. just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 4:05pm
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Ms Andrew- there is absolutely no ambivalence in the language of the ordinance associated with timing of an election. The reference to date is clearly associated with official tallying of the votes and accompanying results. I stated the signs were so ineffective in my opinion, they were not troubling to me personally. However, to parse the clear meaning of the ordinance is truly disingenuous. It is my understanding a motion for Declaratory Judgement has been filed in Butler Cty Common Pleas Court by Porter Wright. Sad. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 4:52pm
| I, for one, refuse to look at them. I have a reminder set on my computer to let me know when I can look at them again. just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 5:02pm
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 5:07pm
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Ms. Andrew, Thanks for the reply and your continued presence on this site in answering taxpayers ideas, complaints , questions and gripes. I don't agree with you on this one but I know and still believe you are the best thing that has happened to the Middletown School Board in thirty years. Its not easy to run a city or a school system. Please press on. pn |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 5:45pm
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Very Interesting responses, Ms.Andrew--consider me a voter supporting your cause, and not the least bit "angry" about the process. You might be defending the in-defensible. The ordinance states "election", and may also be determined to represent "erlection day", and not the start of the voting process. Scary part here is that you are probably not winning any VERY important votes withis this cavalier attitude of being above the law and/or reproach. Cozying behind a relationship with city admin where they turn their head to ignore the violation of your supporting group. If this is what is meant by a "partnership" between city and school govt., then it might be time to re-think one's stance on the collaboration. I see the up-coming vote as the FINAL piece of the school building puzzle. Pass this, and the rest is on admin and faculty to seriously improve results. New facilities may help keep current resident students, though until the scoring results improve dramatically, the school system will be a hard sell to future residents and/or those able to pursue more costly actions. The current govt.backlash against credible and successful charter schools is very disturbing to me. Particularly what is going on in NYC. Protection of union teacher jobs is hardly more important than successfully educating and improving the lives of students-. Is this and a convenient regulatory agency relationship somewhat intertwined? I certainly hope not. Play by the rules--don't make excuses or expect a free pass. I believe in our school system because of my interactions with many involved. I enjoyed meeting and working with you briefly on a prior levy campaign. I enjoyed Mr.Rasmussen during his stay, and look forward to working again with Mr.Ison. I have been fortunate to be included on sysyem finance and climate committies, and was honored to be principal for a day at Rosa Parks with Mr.Edwards. I experienced the caring efforts of the staff from top to bottom. I believe we are getting better in an extremely difficult situation. And I read about more difficult situations turning around. If you chose to operate and condone supporters operating in violation of your own standards, it becomes difficult to see you as one of "us", with whom we can work and bond. City govt.has pretty much alienated EVERYONE with their seclusionist and elitist attitudes--please don't continue falling into that easy trap. This election is important--don't blow it over something this blatantly wrong, insulting and honestly ridiculous. jmo |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 5:52pm
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Acclaro, there is absolutely no reference in the ordinance to "offical tallying of votes and accompanying results." Mr. Nagy, thank you for the kind words and for being agreeable about disagreeing. I fully understand that not everyone will agree with me, and that I am not always right. Obviously, everyone has the right to vote for or against the bond levy, I just want people to make their decision based on correct information, not misinformation, rumors or conspiracy theories. chmoore1, thank you for the information you found on the cost to renovate some of Cincinnati Public's older buildings. I don't think everyone understands how comprehensive and expensive the required renovations would be. I dug up some reports from the Ohio School Facilities Commission of the findings of their evaluation of Middletown's school buildings. The cost to renovate Vail was estimated at $36.1 million; the cost to replace it at $51.8 million. However, we would not build a new middle school at the full 241,134 square feet that Vail has. The new middle school would only need to house grades 7 and 8 and the OSFC estimate is a need for 133,727 square feet at a cost of $28.7 million (this estimate does not include some items that the OSFC does not consider essential, like an auditorium and competition gym). Verity is only 77,152 square feet; not big enough. Cost to renovate Verity $13.6 million, cost to replace $17.1 million (both of those just for the 77,152 square feet).
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Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:04pm
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An election is when someone is elected, which happens on the day of the election. It does not happen when early voting starts. That's really a stretch. Having said that, I don't mind the early signs and think the 30 day limit is ridiculous. There should be timing rules, but that's not really enough time for someone to get name recognition and their message out to as many as possible (mostly by candidates on very limited budgets). In this situation I think the signs are going to backfire. There's a large amount of citizens that are still furious that Roosevelt wasn't utilized as it should have been. Middletown has all of these beautiful, strong, old buildings at its disposal, but unfortunately has a group of people in charge that aren't gifted in how to utilize those assets so they go for the easy route. You guys didn't even sell the roof of Roosevelt. All of that slate just crushed in the demo. Vail was built earthquake proof. That is one massively strong building. The asbestos removal they always moan about has to be specially removed whether the building is renovated or demolished. So that negates the asbestos mantra always used. They should gut Vail down to the concrete bones and rebuild. If the city had coordinated with the school district they probably could have used up most of those 300 home demolitions in the neighborhood in front of Vail and turned the area into a middle school "campus" with parking instead of Girard running in front of the building. The school board should lead by example and start taking care of the Vail property better than it does. It's pretty outrageous that they claim it need so much work, so therefore let it look like a pigsty until they gross everybody out to replace it. Is there a reason why the school board doesn't better maintain the Vail property in general? Why do you expect the citizens to vote to build new when you don't take care of what you have?
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Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:10pm
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Spiderjohn, Thank you for your engagement with the schools and for your input on our finance and climate committees. I do not believe either I or the campaign committee are above the law. I do believe that, in this situation with political signs, the law has not kept up with changing reality, creating a situation where it is ambiguous. "An election" now takes place over 35 days, including early voting, absentee voting, and voting on Election Day in precincts. The point of political signs is to advertize an issue or a candidate to inform or persuade voters before they vote. It seems logical to allow the placing of signs before the voting begins. Perhaps even unconstitutional if it prohibits political speech when voting has already begun --as it does if the 30 days runs backward from Election Day, but early voting starts 35 days before Election Day. In any event, with the ordinance only using the phrase "any election" instead of "Election Day" it lacks clarity about when signs are permissible.
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Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:22pm
| I don't think most people would have a problem with the signs being up as they are if the city hadn't removed so many signs in the past from candidates that did as the board is currently doing. That's where the anger is originating. The law should be changed to accommodate misinterpretations, but the law is the law. If candidates have had their signs removed, then the city has already set a precedent that the 30 day rule is married to the day of the election and not when early voting starts. Again, I think the 30 day rule is ridiculous and really puts a hamper on marketing and getting out the message. |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:24pm
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Rhodes, the school board tried for 2 years to sell the Roosevelt school, but the only interested purchaser was a group that wanted the school district to move its offices to Roosevelt and pay millions of dollars in rent to the new owner, to fund their renovation of Roosevelt. Which was a dead-on-arrival proposal because the district paid no rent for its offices, just utilities and maintenance. The school district ran an auction for any and all pieces and parts of Roosevelt that anyone wanted prior to demolition. Many items were sold. If the roof was still there at demolition it is because no one wanted it. Please see my post above about the cost to renovate Vail -- $36 million. Vail has not been neglected, other than long-term repairs have been deferred for about 10 years because it was 10 years ago that the facilities master plan was approved -- by a citizen committee, the school board and the State of Ohio -- that included the demolition of Vail in phase two, after the elementary school project. During that time, for example, the roof has been patched, but it would make no sense to spend $1 million to put a new roof on Vail, knowing the plan was to tear it down in a few more years. Alot of money spent repairing and maintaining that old building. But replacing the major operating systems is millions of dollars. If the bond issue does not pass, somehow we will have to fund all of that work out of general operating funds, which normally pay for teachers, supplies, busing (recurring annual expenses).
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:24pm
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Ms. Andrew, I remain frankly, staggered by your position on the signs. While I have repeatedly stated I was not offended nor upset initially, your cavalier response and interpretation the ordinance allows such violation is breath-taking. The city ordinance for setting trash out id two days. Signs in violation of an ordinance which you indicate the city could care less about, and flaunt it, is rather reprehensible. I don't believe such attitude serves your cause well. What an example to set for the community. The city has no problem with violation of its ordinance and we'll parse language as we see fit. As sj indicated, this attitude is reflective of the pompous arrogance and approach city hall has shown for many years, which has put the city in ruination. An attitude I am surprised you would follow. As for your numbers, you negate to take in to consideration the fact the levy is a tax increase for infrastructure for a building, when the city doesn't repair its own infrastructure. As stated, perhaps there are enough OPER employees owning property to quid pro quo this, but it will be a battle and have dire consequence if it is passed. I thought initially the placement of the signs early was a mistake and not deliberate. Your statement has convinced me otherwise. While we may disagree on the levy, I certainly believed there was equal ground on adherence to stated law. Stunning. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:29pm
| Rhodes, were candidates whose signs were removed in the past, removed because they were placed too early, or because they were placed in an impermissible location? If you know? If it was due to the location, it doesn't help shed light on the interpretation of the ambiguous language. I agree the ordinance should be enforced, or not, consistently. I have seen both Republican and Democratic political signs that went up before the school bond signs went up. They are all still there. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:30pm
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as Rhodes and others state: it is all about the preferential elitist treatment that stenches our city. The signs are only an example, and by allowing them only widens the divide. Are you confusing "campaigning", "voting" and "election"? Maybe your supporters should know better and be more respectful, especially concerning many sign placements. Ignorance of the law seldom flies--and dis-regarding the law stings much more imo. <object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="//www.youtube.com/v/YanjY9CsPDQ?hl=en_US&version=3&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="//www.youtube.com/v/YanjY9CsPDQ?hl=en_US&version=3&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object> |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:47pm
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MA - The school board did not market Roosevelt openly. I heard there was a charter school that wanted to buy the building or at least wanted the building. What you just posted speaks to exactly what I was saying. People in charge with no imagination. Limited "secret" marketing for 2 years. No results (that the board wanted) so your answer is to demolish a fire proof structure like that? As for the roof comment I made. Companies that buy slate roofs do not show up at auctions. That's back to my point. People in charge not having imagination on how to do things. With all those involved, did anyone call Durable Slate? That roof would have easily sold for $10,000. Huge market for slate salvage, yet nobody knew to do this? You think nobody wanted it b/c nobody showed up to buy it? Wow. Yes, I read your post about Vail. Looks like a simple solution. Increase middle school to include 6th graders or 9th graders. In your own example, the replacement didn't include an auditorium or "competition" gym. In other words, your example of a replacement is a generic school vs. what the Vail building actually is. It is cheaper to renovate and consolidate than to tear down and replace. In the end the community still has one of its iconic buildings intact and utilized. If you want to look like a suburb, then go live in the suburbs. Middletown is an old city and people are getting sick and tired of a minority of people making decisions that are ripping the old world charm away. Buildings do not increase test scores, income levels do. Just like your Lebanon example for Isom. Isom had nothing to do with Lebanon High's change. It was the influx of new citizens by way of new residential developments for higher earners.
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Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:49pm
| MA - I have no idea about former signs removed, just comments made online that I have read. |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:57pm
| MA - One other thing I missed on my response, I'm not talking about maintenance at Vail that would include a new roof. I'm talking about hedging the walkways, replacing broken outside concrete steps, picking up the trash and litter that is all over the place. Just b/c a building is old doesn't mean it has to look like a dump while it waits for physical repairs. Drive by during the day and get a good look at it. Also, a good pressure wash of the sidewalks and walkways would really make a change. Curb appeal. |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 7:28pm
| *edging |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 7:48pm
While I believe having signs out as early as possible is warranted and levels the playing field by not deliberately suppressing the voters knowledge of special election voting, ORC clearly addresses the meaning of an election. As a special election, May 6 comports with 3501.01(D); 30 days prior puts signage at April 7. Non ambivalent language, comporting with the ORC definition of an election; albeit general or otherwise. Election is non ambivalent Ms. Andrew. Play by the same rules others follow. Same for city law department. Chapter 3501: ELECTION PROCEDURE; ELECTION OFFICIALS http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/3501.01" rel="nofollow - 3501.01 Election procedure - election officials definitions.As used in the sections of the Revised Code relating to elections and political communications: "Minor political party" means any political party organized under the laws of this state that meets either of the following requirements: A newly formed political party shall be known as a minor political party until the time of the first election for governor or president which occurs not less than twelve months subsequent to the formation of such party, after which election the status of such party shall be determined by the vote for the office of governor or president. (O) "Voter" means an elector who votes at an election. (T) "Political subdivision" means a county, township, city, village, or school district. (U) "Election officer" or "election official" means any of the following: (3) Director of a board of elections; (4) Deputy director of a board of elections; (5) Member of a board of elections; (6) Employees of a board of elections; (7) Precinct election officials; (8) Employees appointed by the boards of elections on a temporary or part-time basis. (AA) "Photo identification" means a document that meets each of the following requirements: (3) It shows a photograph of the individual to whom it was issued. (4) It includes an expiration date that has not passed. (5) It was issued by the government of the United States or this state. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 8:39pm
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OK CH, LET'S SEE WHAT YOU HAVE HERE........ "VV: once again---no answer from you on a real solution." YOU ASKED FOR SOME SUGGESTIONS AND I GAVE SOME TO YOU. BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH THE SUGGESTIONS DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE NOT "REAL ANSWERS" A REAL SOLUTION COULD BE 10 DIFFERENT THINGS WHEN ASKING 10 DIFFERENT PEOPLE. THERE ARE NO STANDARD ANSWERS. "Perhaps you should go on a tour of MMS, since, admittedly, you haven't been in it since you graduated almost fifty years ago" NEVER SAID THE LAST TIME I WAS IN VAIL WAS FIFTY YEARS AGO. I SAID SOME YEARS AGO IN THE POST. READ IT AGAIN CH. I WAS IN THE SCHOOL IN THE 80'S WHEN MY SON WENT THERE FOR PARENT TEACHER CONFERENCES TO BE ACCURATE. WHERE DID YOU SEE 50 YEARS AGO? "No mention of ADA (a policy close to your heart), restroom modernization (or yeah, that's right, you peed in them 50 years ago, so they should still be great). No ADA access to Miller Gym, the cafeteria needs to be gutted, and the fourth floor ceiling is falling in." WELL GEE CH, I COULDN'T COVER ALL THE ITEMS IN THE REHAB OF THE SCHOOL NOW COULD I. I COVERED HEAT AND COOLING, WINDOWS, FLOORS AND THE ROOF. ANYONE COULD ADD TO THAT LIST AND CALL IT INCOMPLETE. FAIR ENOUGH. YOU CRITICIZE MY LIST FAILURES AND I'LL CRITICIZE YOUR LOUSY SCHOOL SYSTEM. "Also, I think we covered this in a previous post: to try dismantle the windows at Roosevelt to "maybe" reuse at Vail, wasn't practical (dismantle, move store, reinstall---costly). Sounds cool, but do we really know if they were the same size, plus damage and breakage dismantling them would be extensive." SO WE REALLY DON'T KNOW IF IT WOULD HAVE WORKED AS IT WAS EASIER TO JUST SEND THOSE RELATIVELY NEW WINDOWS TO THE LANDFILL, RIGHT? NICE USE OF TAXPAYER MONEY. TO HELL WITH SALVAGE, LET'S JUST BUY NEW ON THE TAXPAYER'S DIME. MOVE- STORE REINSTALL----MORE COSTLY THAN ALL NEW? THINKING LIKE A DAM GOVERNMENT PERSON NOW CH. BUY NEW, DISCARD NEW, BUY NEW. "Please do this for us: how much would you suggest to spend on any upgrades, and how will you fund them. Please stick to this, and as a courtesy, don't use all capitalized letters. You don't need to "yell" at us. just 1chmoore" WELL CH, I AM CAPITALIZING MY RESPONSES FOR A REASON. A YEAR OR SO AGO, SOMEONE ASKED ME TO START TYPING MY RESPONSES IN CAPS TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THE QUOTES AND MY RESPONSES TO THOSE QUOTES, JUST AS I HAVE DONE HERE. I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT YOU WOULD ASSOCIATE RESPONSES IN CAPS WITH "YELLING". QUITE THE IMAGINATION CH. OH, AND I'D FUND THE UPGRADES BY EXAMINING ANY PROGRAMS OUT THERE FROM THE STATE OR THE FEDS, RESTRUCTURING THE BUDGET FOR THE SCHOOLS/RE-PRIORITIZING THE FOCUS OF MONEY, RE-STRUCTURING THE PAY SYSTEM FOR EACH CATEGORY AS THE NEW CONTRACTS COME UP, INITIATE MERIT RAISES ON EARNED PERFORMANCE ELIMINATING AUTOMATIC STEP INCREASES GOVERNED BY TIME ON THE JOB. THAT'S A FREE RAISE WITHOUT A PERFORMANCE APPRAISAL IMO. MAKING THE SCHOOL EMPLOYEES PAY MORE TOWARD THE PREMIUMS FOR THEIR BENEFITS AS WE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR ARE FORCED TO DO. RE-EXAMINE THE TEXTBOOK PURCHASES, LONG TERM. WORK WITH THE CITY TO BRING JOBS TO THE CITY TO GENERATE MORE PROPERTY TAXES WHERE 80%+ GOES TOWARD FINANCING THE SCHOOLS. THE IDEA IS TO INCREASE SCHOOL REVENUE THROUGH CORPORATE TAXES AND PROPERTY TAXES, NOT DRAIN THE CITIZENS WALLETS DRY WITH LEVIES. BOTH CORPORATE SECTOR PROPERTIES AND INDIVIDUALLY OWNED HOUSES. DO IT LIKE EVENDALE AND THE PRINCETON DISTRICT, OR LURE THE RICH PROFESSIONALS LIKE MASON AND SPRINGBORO DID. (ALTHOUGH FAR-FETCHED THINKING FOR MIDD. AT THIS POINT IN TIME) NOW, GO AHEAD AND ADD YOUR IDEAS AND LABEL MINE "NOT A REAL SOLUTION" BECAUSE IT DOESN'T AGREE WITH YOUR INPUT. MERCY. I'M SURE THERE IS MONEY WASTED IN THIS DISTRICT. PERHAPS ALOT OF IT SPENT ON ITEMS NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO THE OPERATION. THERE IS WASTE IN ANY SYSTEM. JUST GOT TO CUT THROUGH THE BULL AND ELIMINATE MONEY-WASTING PROGRAMS AND PEOPLE. YA DON'T NEED THREE OR FOUR ASSIST'S TO ANY POSITION IN ANY SCHOOL HERE. BIG SALARIES/BENNIES COSTS ELIMINATED....BIG MONEY SAVINGS FOR THE DISTRICT TO BE RE-FOCUSED ON THE NECESSARY THINGS. YOU'RE UP BUD. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 11:57pm
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VV: looky what I found on the Internet! Email Etiquette Source: http://www.virtu-software.com/ask-doug/QandA.asp?q=15 "Why shouldn't I use capital letters? A friend told me that I shouldn't use capital letters in my emails. Why not?" Answer You can use capital letters in your emails...just don't use all capitals. It's considered rude. It's like yelling at someone. I know, I know...your response will be "YOU CAN FIND ANYTHING ON THE INTERNET." I am "JUST 1CHMOORE." |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 12:02am
| VV: two simple questions: (1) how much (dollar figure) would you suggest MCSD put into MMS; (2) where do you see the funds (money) coming from? NO BLOVIATING! Just two simple questions with two simple answers. We know that test scores are miserable, teachers don't deserve their pay, unions are evil, Middletown sucks, etc. Just need the two answers which you have failed to give for the last two years. Just 1chmoore---otherwise known as "Bud" to my friends. |
Posted By: Richard Saunders
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 12:13am
One on the north side of Manchester Avenue, just west of the Speedway at Cincinnati-Dayton Road; Two on the west side of Cincinnati-Dayton Road, one each just north and south of the former Starglow Drive-In theater. Although I did not personally witness it, the photo posted by Iron Man above clearly shows a sign within the right-of-way on the south side of Roosevelt Boulevard just east of the AK main gate. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 5:42am
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The notch in the belt, the scorecard, resume building, and the airplane "kills" on the side of fighter jet. Measuring a top athlete's career? No....the manner a Middletown superintendent is measured. Passing levies is the key to the spring board, moving to the next career move. How long has this message been plaing folks in MCSD and successor BOE's and superintendents? Why does this town tolerate mediocrity is beyond me. ___________________ Q&A with outgoing superintendent Steve PriceJob leading a school district is a ‘lifestyle’
Related http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2012/05/05/4f/ca/56275848_-1_538990a.jpg" rel="nofollow - View Larger http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/960/img/photos/2012/05/05/4f/ca/56275848_-1_538990a.jpg" rel="nofollow">  Middletown City Schools Superintendent Steve Price’s last day on the job is Friday, July 31. By Meagan Engle Staff Writer MIDDLETOWN — Outgoing Middletown City Schools Superintendent Steve Price didn’t expect his career here to end after seven years. As he sat in the office he’s mostly cleaned out since mutually agreeing with the school board to part ways, Price said he came to Middletown intending to stay until retirement. Still, he understood the challenges of urban schools — where superintendents stay an average 3.7 years, according to the Ohio School Boards Association. “In the beginning, people thought I was just coming to build my resume to move onto the next position,” said Price, whose last day is Friday, July 31. “That was my promise when I came to Middletown, to be totally committed to this community. To be fully integrated into the community. To bring a family that wanted to stay here and do everything we could on behalf of kids. “And I feel like I’ve done that. I feel like I can look myself in the mirror and say I’ve done that every day.” Price’s vision for Middletown saw almost immediate success, passing levies on the first try and getting approval on a bond issue for elementary schools that had previously failed. “We got them out of Academic Watch, we built new buildings and we had some success in reducing the achievement gap,” he said. But as the economy began to sink and many AK Steel employees were without work for a year, discontent among some grew as improvement didn’t come fast enough for the community, or for Price . “ The community demands and wants more, and they should always do that, and so should boards ,” he said. Price’s work allowed him to grow into an advocate for equity and addressing underlying issues by examining individuals, not creating new programs. His work earned him a prestigious award, and even still has him making presentations, including one Aug. 1 at the National Superintendents Roundtable meeting in Cincinnati. “I’ve never had to work a day in my life, because I love what I’m doing. ... It’s the most rewarding profession there is; it really is,” he said. Job leading a school district is a ‘lifestyle’ Middletown City Schools Superintendent Steve Price will leave the district after seven years Friday, July 31. The Journal sat down with the outgoing superintendent to reflect on his tenure with the district. Q: How has working at Middletown City Schools impacted you? A: When I first came here, and the board asked me to address issues of diversity and the building issues and achievement gap, I looked at this as a professional endeavor, and it really never dawned on me that it was going to become kind of a life-changing thing too. ... It had an impact on just how I raise my family, how I interact in the community, how I interact with people in my life, how I see the world. ... I know that not everybody agrees with the leadership that I provided, but for me personally, I appreciate what Middletown has offered me. The opportunities, the people that I’ve had a chance to meet and work with, have helped shape who I’ve become as a leader and as a person. ... I feel like there have been people around that have really helped me grow, from my board right through to community members to professionals that I’ve work with in the area to the people that I’ve met on a national level, because this job has afforded me that opportunity. I feel blessed; I really do. Things right now, even though I’m leaving the district on mutually agreeable terms, as far as me as a person, I couldn’t have asked for better opportunities in development than I’ve gotten here. Q: Do you think you accomplished the priorities set for you? A: I’m obviously very happy with the building project, because that was something they said couldn’t be done. ... The survey results were telling us that the bond issue didn’t have a chance to pass. And because of the work of some and the grass-roots movement of some really, really dedicated people in this community who believed in that vision, we got it done. ... And then we passed two operating levies on the first ballot. ... Those were exciting times of support, anticipation, hope, excitement. ... And then when the economy started turning and AK Steel had their lockout, people got very, very upset with asking for more money. That was extremely painful to see what we had to do to this school district. That’s not why I got into the business. I didn’t get into the business, one to be a fundraiser to try to pass tax issues all the time. I didn’t get into the business to cut services to kids and hurt kids. And so that was really one of the most painful and difficult things in my career to recommend those cuts and have the board act on those. But it was also when we had our performance index score go up to 84.5 and moved (from a Academic Watch on the state report card) into Continuous Improvement. ... We’re hoping our performance index scores will go back up this year and that we’ll continue that trend of moving up, but we don’t know yet. ... Two years ago, when we look at all the reading and math scores that were measured on the state test, we were able to raise scores of white students, raise scores of African-American students and reduce the gap in seven or eight of those 14 categories. So that was exciting, too. Q: What do you think your legacy will be? A: The buildings, that will be a legacy. ... And certainly I’m going to be remembered for the equity work, I think, that I introduced in Middletown. I know that it had an impact on lives, a positive impact on lives of many staff members and many students and parents in this district. And so I hope that’s what my legacy’s going to be. And that we did move this school district up in the level of achievement, not as far and as fast as some people wanted, but the direction was up. ... Achievement improved, the achievement gap did narrow, and we got new buildings built. So I’m leaving it in better shape than when I arrived, I believe. Did it happen as far and as fast as everyone wanted? It didn’t happen as far and as fast as I wanted, but there were a lot of circumstances surrounding that. Q: What do you hope Middletown continues working on? A: There’s lots of things that have started that need to continue to move on. I’d like to see things like our Step Up Mentoring Program expand and include more kids. I’m looking forward to hearing how the ninth-grade academy is going to go. ... I hope I can stay involved with the Middletown Promise. I’d like to be able to stay involved with that because I helped get that started, even though it’s incorporated now as a not-for-profit. The equity work, certainly, I would like to see continue with the expectations that all kids can learn and we can close that achievement gap. ... Those are things that I would like to see grow and get better and continue. ... Those are legacies that I can point to and say ... I had some influence on those things, getting them established here. Q: What are you favorite memories? A: A bunch of things come to mind. Seeing those high school kids a couple board meetings ago about the social justice class. ... We talk about critical thinking; they were demonstrating it. It was really fun to go to all the groundbreaking ceremonies for new buildings. ... Individual things like when I used to go read to kids or teach a class. ... Those will always be fun in my career getting back into classrooms and staying close to that. It was fun to have my kids in the school where I was superintendent. It’s fun for me to do the number of graduations I got to do. To see our kids being successful, graduating high school. ... Helping to found the Consortium (on Race and Equity) ... and being a part of professionals that really believe in that work. There were a lot of good things. This is not a job. The superintendency is a lifestyle. All I ever wanted in this district was for our kids to do well. ... And I only have good memories. I have no regrets for doing that. It’s something I love to do and it’s something I look forward to doing in the future. In the simplest terms, that’s what it’s about. It’s not about adults; it’s about kids and it’s about helping kids become what they want to become and do as well as they possible can. Q: Did anything take you by surprise during your career? A: The one thing I’ve learned in this job is there’s not too many things that surprise you anymore. ...There certainly were early on some real challenges: Trying to convince this community that there was a lot to be hopeful for and there was a lot to be thankful for in the community at large and in the school district. When we were able to do that in the beginning by passing the bond issue and passing the levies, it got on a roll, and people started believing. That wasn’t really a surprise though, because the board was pretty honest with me when I came in here; they told me what the challenges were going to be. And those same challenges continue to exist. Q: Were you prepared for the feedback you got on programs? A: Every element that I was talking about, there was another element in the community that wasn’t happy with that or some part of that or something to do with that. And that is one of the challenges of surviving leadership in a complex, large, diverse district is that everybody has different opinions, and so whether it was because a building was moving to a different location or whether it was because you didn’t agree with combining the tax levies when we did. That’s the great thing about public education, is opinions are heard. ... But part of leadership is you don’t make everybody happy all the time. When you have to make difficult decisions or difficult recommendations, not everybody’s going to be happy. ... When you do enough of those, sooner or later there are some people that aren’t going to be happy. When you do that over seven-and-a-quarter years, that’s a lot of issues that you’re dealing with. Q: What’s next for you? A: I love being a superintendent, and my plans are to continue to seek a superintendent seat. But if there is an interim between that, I have opportunities to consult ... (and) to do some adjunct teaching at the university. That gives me time to read and research, and do some of the things that this job doesn’t always allow you the time for. ... But my heart is being a superintendent or working in a school district in some leadership capacity. That’s what I enjoy doing. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 7:48am
GOLLY GEE CH, BASED ON YOUR RESEARCH CONCERNING "E-MAIL ETIQUETTE", I GUESS I WILL IMMEDIATELY CEASE AND DESIST USING ALL CAPS. THIS IS REALLY IMPRESSIVE INFORMATION! ....BUT THEN AGAIN, PERHAPS I REALLY AM "YELLING" ABOUT MOST OF THE NONSENSE OCCURING IN THIS CITY NOWADAYS. CERTAINLY IS A MONUMENTAL FRUSTRATION FACTOR PRESENT. SOME OF THE CRAP PULLED BY THE TOWN DESTROYER CROWD AND SEEING THE SCHOOLS GO TO HELL THE LAST 3 DECADES WOULD CAUSE ONE TO YELL AT TIMES.....UNLESS, OF COURSE, THEY WERE UNABLE TO DISTINGUISH REALITY FROM SMOKESCREEN ON THEIR OWN, BELIEVED EVERYTHING CRAMMED DOWN THEIR THROAT, SUPPORTED ENDLESS ATTEMPTS AT IMPROVING SOMETHING HERE WHILE CONSTANTLY FAILING TO ACHIEVE ANYTHING OF ANY RELEVANCE. I REALIZE ONE CAN FIND ANYTHING ON THE INTERNET. THE REAL ISSUE IS WHETHER YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU FIND TO BE THE TRUTH. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 10:37am
| Good Lord. Everyone knew you were yelling. You need to calm down a little before you have a stroke. Well, after BLOVIATING (again) I see that you still haven't answered the two questions--but, I have lowered my expectations and am content knowing that you can't do it. BUD, OVER AND OUT! just 1chmoore. (One more chance---two simple questions, two simple answers: how much? And how paid? Come on, Vet, you can do it!!! |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 11:10am
ACTUALLY THE OLD BLOOD PRESSURE IS FINE CH. CALM DOWN YOU SAY? NAW, I'M KNOWN FOR MY CALM DEMEANOR ALREADY. I'VE OFFERED SOME IDEAS CH. YOU HAVEN'T ACCEPTED THOSE IDEAS. GUESS I JUST CAN'T GUESS WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR AND RESPOND. JUST CAN'T COMPETE AT YOUR LEVEL BUD. YOU ARE JUST FLAT OUT TOO KNOWLEDGEABLE FOR ME. BY THE WAY, WHAT THE HELL IS "BLOVIATING". ARE YOU BILINGUAL OR ARE YOU JUST MAKING UP SLANG CH? CH, IF I ANSWERED YOUR REQUESTS, YOU WOULD NEVER ADMIT THEY WERE CORRECT. BOTH OF US ARE KINDA WASTING OUR TIME AREN'T WE AS WE WILL NEVER AGREE ON THE STATE OF THE SCHOOLS AROUND HERE. YOU BELIEVE IT ALL. I BELIEVE NONE OF IT. SIMPLE AS THAT.....BUT I MUST ADMIT, YOU DO PROVIDE SOME NEEDED ENTERTAINMENT ON OCCASION. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 12:23pm
| VV: dollar amount? Seems simple. Where the funds come from: seems simple. Bottom line is, Vet has all the BS about street repairs and all the smoke screen about how much he pays for medical insurance as opposed to the "worthless" teachers, but he doesn't have a clue how he would contend with a 90 year-old building. Can't build new! Can't remodel! Just B*tch for another 5-10 years until it's 100 years old. Hey, I just figured out why it's falling apart: it's because VV peed in the pipes 50 years ago. As VV himself has said, they were fine when he was there in 1966. That's when they started to deteriorate! Always your BUD. just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 1:22pm
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Rhodes, there was a charter school that wanted us to give them (not buy) half of the building. They could not afford even the operating costs for the full building. Prior boards had been burned this way, giving the old Amanda School to an entity that quickly went bust and failed to maintain it, allowing it to decay, while the community all yelled at the school board for allowing an eyesore. At least you seem to understand that renovating Vail would require gutting it down to its concrete bones and rebuilding completely the interior. That option was fully considered and evaluated, along with many other options and scenarios, by a school facilities committee composed of community members, school employees, design and build professionals. For 10 years. Dozens of meetings, site visits, presentations to the public and the school board. The option of renovating Vail is no longer on the table. The choice for voters is to approve a $55 million bond for a new middle school and a renovated, "like new" high school, or to vote that option down. This is the plan that has been signed off on by the committee, the school board and the state. There is no choice to vote no on the proposed bond levy, but yes for some other plan for the middle school that you or someone else thinks is smarter or more historically correct. It just doesnt' work that way. Acclaro's argument, best I can make it out, seems to be that we should not ask the voters to support capital improvements and construction for the schools, because the City (a separate government with separate funds and separate leadership) failed to spend money on capital improvements to keep the roads in good repair. While I agree the City probably should have spent more on the roads (although, I don't see how they could have done so without raising taxes), the argument that we shouldn't allow the schools to spend money on their infrastructure because we are angry at the City for not spending money on its infrastructure, is completely illogical. If Middletown is ever going to recover, it needs both. Acclaro admits in one post that the only way to substantially improve test scores is to attract (or keep) more high-income families. Vail is a big deal-breaker for those families.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 1:54pm
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Ms. Andrew, you seem bent on ignoring sound logic and reason associated with financial decisions. The Board and city leadership have consistently acknowledged the correlation between the two entities. To state they are separate and the city could not afford to maintain its own infrastructure is precisely the point. Higher income earners don't move into school districts with such atrocious academic performance simply because you have an urban school building(s) offering parity with outstanding systems from a physical perspective. Furthermore, do you hold the belief the school district is the "lost leader" for the city of Middletown? Simply stated, you are stating with new buildings, regardless of the condition of the roads and disrepair, are made whole, and Middletown is a stellar catch if you will, associated with physical buildings that do not improve academic performance and will not improve performance. But, in your opinion, high income individuals will stay put in Middletown or will move into Middletown because of buildings that are not compensating the physical infrastructure in town, add additional tax burden on a depressed housing market in Middletown, and the city is so far behind in its maintenance, it would cost $ tens of Mm to repair. There are streets in the cit that haven't had asphalt on them in 50 years, and a school building premised previously on raising test scores and bringing in higher income folks and enhanced student population, which the three objectives failed, should lead to a passage of a levy simply because its part of a flawed Master Plan? That is illogical. The levy should not be passed because: 1) There is no correlation between physical schools (buildings) and enhanced test scores, enhanced enrollment, and open enrollment. 2) The Middletown Promise, dead on arrival. 3) Testing performance enhancement? Dead on arrival. 4) 2014- Ohio is shrinking in population, not growing. Butler County's growth in the present is flat; West Chester is growing at about .2%. Middletown? Shrinking, and aged. 5) As Commissioner Rogers opined, growing cities and towns lure businesses with low taxes, and benefit. A property tax is a tax, and is no different than an income tax. Combining 1.75% tax with high property tax in consideration of the above, keeps high earners out, not enticing them to move in. Is the objective to eliminate the students leaving? Too many factors that are taken into consideration than a building. Academic performance is number 1, not a physical building offering parity.. Mayor Mulligan got it right: you look for alternatives in processes in cost reductions before ever considering to burden the taxpayer with higher taxes. In this case, its a burden with absolutely no return on investment, and pushing value down on valuation further. While the failed levy may derail the Master Plan, it does mitigate the burden of taxes on a depreciating asset for which the levy relies- the commercial and residential property. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 3:31pm
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Acclaro -- no, no, no. You are completely misstating my position. Yes, there is a correlation between the future success of the city and the schools. That is completely different than saying that one controls the other, or that we can't have a new school until we have new streets. Try to stay focused. I mean, really -- the Middletown Promise? Steve Price and other well-meaning people tried to get that started, but could not get it funded -- unlike Kalamazoo, there is no Kellogg wealth in this town. What does that possibly have to do with the bond issue? Middletown needs a new middle school. It is one piece - but an essential piece - in the puzzle of reviving Middletown. No one has ever said it is a magic, stand alone solution to MIddletown's problems.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 3:55pm
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Ms. Andrew, I appreciate your efforts and dedication to the school system and city. Until the city takes care of infrastructure, brings in high income individuals, increases property values, and stabilizes its police and fire department, Middletown faces an uphill battle which I believe it is losing. I view the critical elements in the puzzle as follows in stack rank: 1) City infrastructure 2) Police and fire (union issue, numbers of employees, et al). 3) Economic Development (> income residents, > number of businesses, tax base) 4) School improvement; > than Continuous Improvement. 5) Quality of Life- amenities that "hook" high income earners, businesses 6) Lean Forward- Innovation, disruptive force mindset within community (Hamilton laying foundation) 7) Public Schools- Performance 8) Public schools- Physical infrastructure Without the seven foundation pieces, the finished puzzle never comes to fruition. Some will agree, and some will believe all these pieces will come to Middletown in sequence. My vantage is neither the city, businesses, nor residents can afford these pieces as whole to complete the puzzle, which was the conclusion of the FORBES article. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 6:03pm
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MA - I understand the renovation of Vail isn't on the table. I'm not moved that a committee of citizens decided against it. I've seen the lists of the people on the numerous committees Middletown has. Rarely is a name on there of someone self made or is known for being innovative. Having said that, if the school board had come up with a proposal that would have gutted Vail and rebuilt it as new, this levy would have been passed a long time ago. There is a reason why cities like Lebanon are wise enough to maintain their character. It's mostly the type of people that live there. There's a reason why a $300,000,000 "downtown" is being built in Liberty Township. Higher income areas like that sort of thing. So it should never be surprise that a mostly modest income community of average people sitting on a committee think "new" is the answer. That should be where leadership takes over and educates the average person into understanding the importance that the city maintain as much of its rich heritage as possible. Unfortunately the people in charge either misinform those committees or heavily push the new over old way. Tearing down the old Wildwood or Creekview wasn't that big of a deal because those buildings were no different than the bland buildings that replaced them. Tearing down these old buildings that were built at the highest of standards is really foolish. Middletown doesn't have a lot, but it sure has the leftovers of a very prosperous past. How many high schools have a stadium like Barnitz? How many have a gym like Miller? Very few throughout the whole country have those types of facilities. The solution is to tear it all down, for the most part, and built a bunch of new generic buildings of lesser quality? That's the message leadership pushes and most people just don't have the guts to stand up to it. Thus, the committees mimic the bad ideas leadership wants. Concerning that charter school, the board should have given the building to them for free as long as it freed the board from future expenses. If it didn't, then a way should have been made to make it happen that way. Once you tear down these old buildings in a city like Middletown, they'll never be replaced.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 10:36pm
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Informative- www.stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/tag/dropouts/http://" rel="nofollow - www.stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/tag/dropouts/http:// ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 27 2014 at 11:12pm
| Dateline: Middletown, Ohio May 4, 2047: A Middletown icon, known as Viet Vet has passed away at the age of 99. "Vet," as his close friend "BUD" MOORE has called him for years, was the last hold-out to always vote "NO" on any levy (except the Senior Citizens' levy in 2010). It was Vet's vote in May, 2014 against the School Bond Levy that denied the passage which would have replaced the aging Middletown Middle School. Fortunately, the "Old High School" as it was referred to over the years, was given to the Senior Citizens' Group to replace their aging facility on Central Avenue. With VV's declining health over the last 2 weeks, a movement has begun to name the "Old High School" facility after Vet. Henceforth it will be known as the "Viet Vet's Memorial Senior Citizens' Service Center." As a further tribute, the Middletown Board of Education has received permission to have his body interred in the lobby of the newly name facility, respectfully facing the statues of Abraham Lincoln and George Washington. Pall bearers include many of the past Superintendents that have served MCSD. "Vet" will surely be missed by a few. |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 12:17am
| Is there a reason why this message board doesn't allow editing? I tend to go back and read later on what I posted and I hate it when I find errors I can't fix. It also leads to posts like the one I left earlier that only said " *edging ". I found out today that is actually an X rated word, which I did not know. If anyone read that, I was correcting a word from an earlier post. Please let up on the editing controls or let me know where to find them since I'm apparently that out of the loop. |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 1:23am
| Rhodes: after you have signed in, scroll all the way to the bottom (in this case, Page 4); look on the right hand side for "Forum Permissions." Click on the arrow, and it will drop down with certain things that you can do---but you must be logged in. The fourth option says that you CAN edit. How, I don't know. Hope this helps. chmoore. |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 6:51am
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Hmm. You can find just about anything on the internet---from the University of Georgia Source: http://sdpl.coe.uga.edu/researchabstracts/age.html Influence of the School Facility on Student Achievement School Building Age The age of a school building has been used as a surrogate factor to study the composite impact of school plant variables on pupil achievement at elementary, middle and secondary school levels (McGuffey, 1982). A 1991 report by the American Association of School Administrators indicated that "nearly 5 million students in the U.S. attended classes in 13,200 classrooms that were inadequate for meeting standards necessary to prepare students for today's world" (Holt, 1994, p.33). Many public school facilities are in disrepair, a situation affecting the morale, health, and academic achievement of students (Frazier, 1993). Many research studies have been conducted in the area of school building age and its impact on student achievement. Findings of these studies follow. Thomas (1962) in his study of the relationship between resource inputs and outcomes of education found that school building age was one of the independent variables having the greatest effect on educational outcomes. He concluded that a school building's age was consistently positive and related to pupil achievement. Plumley (1978) examined the relationship of school building age and student achievement of 4th grade students in selected schools in Georgia. The findings of the study indicated that the older the school buildings without the elements of modernization, the lower the composite vocabulary, reading, language, work study and mathematics scores on the ITBS. Thus, Plumley's study supported the fact that a significant relationship between school building age and the academic achievement of pupils exists. Similarly, Chan (1979) investigated the relationship of school building age and academic achievement of 8th grade pupils in a random sample of schools in Georgia. It was found that the achievement scores of pupils assigned to modernized school buildings were consistently higher than the scores of pupils assigned to non-modernized school buildings. McGuffey and Brown (1978) also studied the impact of school building age on achievement in Georgia schools. They discovered that their research supported other similar studies indicating that approximately 3% of the variance in achievement test scores can be explained by age of the facility after removing the variance caused by socioeconomic factors. In the area of modernized school buildings, Bowers and Burkett (1987) researched the academic achievement of two hundred and eighty, 4th and 6th grade students housed in two separate facilities (the oldest and newest facilities in the selected school district). They found that the students in the newer building (modern) performed much better than the students in the older building. The students in the modern building also had a better record in the areas of health, attendance and discipline. Most recently, Ikpa (1992) found a significantly negative relationship between the age of school buildings and achievement. Her data indicated that as the age of the school building increased, the achievement test scores tended to decrease. Based on the research in the area of school building age and academic achievement, it is vital that educational consultants, architects and administrators be critically aware of the importance attached to the compatibility between the physical environment and student learning. Happy reading. just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 6:57am
"Vet" will surely be missed by a few" DOUBTFUL CH. GREAT STORY CH. VIVID IMAGINATION. GOOD JOB. I LIKE THIS LINE....." It was Vet's vote in May, 2014 against the School Bond Levy that denied the passage which wold have replaced the aging Middletown Middle School." I SURELY HOPE SO. IT WOULD GIVE ME GREAT SATISFACTION TO KNOW THAT MY ONE SINGLE VOTE CAUSED THE DEFEAT OF THE LEVY. I WOULD HAVE HELPED MANY CITIZENS OF THIS CITY BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE PUT A HALT TO THE EXCESSIVE TAXATION WITH NO ROI AS TO ACADEMIC IMPROVEMENT AND WOULD HAVE HELPED PEOPLE WHO COULDN'T HAVE AFFORDED THE EXTRA TAXES OUT OH THEIR PAYCHECKS. IT HAS BECOME A POOR COMMUNITY BUT THE SCHOOL LEADERS, LEVY SUPPORTERS AND CITY LEADERS DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE FINANCIAL HARDSHIPS IT MAY PLACE ON THOSE LIVING HERE. THEY SIMPLY WANT WHAT THEY WANT AND TO HELL WITH THOSE WHO WOULD STRUGGLE DUE TO THEIR LITTLE "DESIRES". OH, AND BEING 65 NOW, I DON'T THINK I WILL, NOR DO I WANT TO LIVE TO THE YEAR 2047. LIFE IS NO LONGER A HAPPY PLACE FOR ME. I AM JUST DEAD MAN WALKING GOING THROUGH THE PACES EACH DAY. BETWEEN A FULL TIME JOB AND BEING A CAREGIVER AS SOON AS I WALK THROUGH THE DOOR AFTER WORK, I AM A ROBOT, JUST DOING TASKS. NO NEED FOR PALLBEARERS BUD. CHEAPER TO CREMATE. WOULDN'T WANT MANAGEMENT TYPES (SUPERS) CARRYING ME TO MY FINAL RESTING PLACE ANYWAY. IT WOULD BE AN INSULT. CH, SITUATION FOR YOU TO PONDER...... THERE WOULD BE SOME IRONY IF, AS YOU REACH RETIREMENT, YOUR HEALTH GOES SOUTH ON YOU, PERHAPS BECOMING PARALYZED AND IN A WHEELCHAIR, DUE TO A STROKE, INCAPABLE OF TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF WITH SOMEONE HAVING TO BATH YOU, GET YOUR MEALS, DRESS YOU, GIVE YOU YOUR MEDICINE EACH DAY AND GO WITH YOU TO YOUR APPTS, TO HAVE TO RELY ON THE LIFT VAN FOR TRANSPORTATION. BET YOU'D VOTE FOR THE SENIORS LEVY TOO, BUD. WHEN YOU'RE IN THAT SITUATION, YOU LOOK FOR ANYTHING THAT WILL MAKE YOUR LIFE A TAD BIT EASIER. UNDERSTAND THE DEVASTATION THIS LIFE CAN SOMETIMES OFFER YOU AND YOU'LL UNDERSTAND WHY CERTAIN DECISIONS ARE MADE. WALK A MILE IN MY SHOES AND YOU'LL UNDERSTAND THE REASON FOR THE YES VOTE ON THE SENIORS LEVY FROM ME. UNLESS YOU ARE PARALYZED OR TEND TO A FAMILY MEMBER WHO IS, YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT A MEDICAL HARDSHIP CAN DO TO A FAMILY OR YOUR LIFE. IT MAKES YOU BITTER CH. IT MAKES YOU TIRED AND DEPRESSED, AND, SOMETIMES, IT MAKES YOU WISH YOUR LIFE WOULD END JUST TO GET AWAY FROM IT. AT TIMES, IT IS HELL ON EARTH JUST TO MAINTAIN A SEMBLENCE OF A LIFE. IN THE OVERALL SCHEME OF THINGS, THIS LITTLE DISCUSSION/COMBAT/BARBS ABOUT SCHOOL LEVIES AND THE NIMRODS RUNNING THE CITY.....THIS FORUM.......DOESN'T MATTER IN THE END......FOR ANY OF US....ON EITHER SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT. SOMETIMES, NOT ALWAYS, I AM CAPABLE OF PUTTING THINGS IN THEIR PROPER PERSPECTIVE.......NEVERTHELESS, I APPRECIATE YOUR HUMOR HERE. HELL, I APPRECIATE ANY HUMOR. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 7:15am
| VV: it's been nice funnin' with you. I have been retired for a number of years, and I understand the heartaches that come along. I, honestly, never thought that life would be this tough at my age. The All-American dream has crumbled in the last decade, and it seems that life has become a nightmare. On a serious note, have you taken advantage of the Homestead Act, now that you're 65? It reduced my taxes by about $500/year. See you in the next post. just 1chmoore. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 7:37am
YES SIR I DID APPLY FOR THE HOMESTEAD ACT AS I HAVE A MEDICAL DISABILITY SITUATION AND HAD ABOUT 3% KNOCKED OFF MY PROPERTY TAXES BECAUSE OF IT. THANKS FOR THE TIP. AGREE. I THOUGHT WHEN I WAS DONE WORKING (IN ABOUT 4.5 YEARS FROM NOW AND WITH 51 YRS. IN) THAT I MIGHT BE ABLE TO FINALLY LEARN HOW TO RELAX A LITTLE. PROBABLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I'LL GO FROM HAVING TWO JOBS TO JUST ONE AS I WILL SPEND MY RETIREMENT TAKING CARE OF THE WIFE. ANY TRAVEL IN RETIREMENT WILL BE IN MY DREAMS ONLY. RETIREMENT WILL BE UNDER SEVERE LIMITATIONS AS TO FREEDOM. UNTIL 5 YEARS AGO, I THOUGHT THAT I WAS HEADED TO SOME DEGREE OF ENJOYMENT AFTER WORKING. NOT GONNA HAPPEN NOW. OH WELL.....YA JUST DO WHAT YA HAVE TO DO TO KEEP GOING. ------------- I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 8:04am
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I encourage all voters to read The Coleman Report, also known as the Equality of Educational Opportunity (study), EE0, the most comprehensive analytic study in North America associated with K-12 public education and factors which impact performance. This extensive study, conducted in 1966, is considered the gold standard for formulating a baseline of statistical objective data associated with learning and achievement. Its impact altered segregation of instruction and the impact physical infrastructure (building) had upon academic achievement. It's Results: 1. Separation of races inversely negatively impacts performance. 2. No statistical correlation exists between physical buildings and academic achievement. 3. Capital expenditures per pupil per capita income, did not alter academic performance positively. Conclusion The factors limiting performance are home environment, financial home life (poor), and general socio-economic status. In other words, a student will not excel without a strong and stable family experience and financial stabailty. Brick and mortar does not impact performance; it just acts as a short term placebo of well-being, maskinmg statistical significant measures that do effect academic outcomes. Translation No building, even a new one, with pastel colors, and fresh smell, impacts academic performance. If the district has students coming from unstable homes, expect performance to be poor. The Game-changer Ohio's reduction to those age 65 and making $30,000 or less makes the older voter think with their pocket book at risk. http://mailer.fsu.edu/~ldsmith/garnet-ldsmith/Coleman%20Report.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://mailer.fsu.edu/~ldsmith/garnet-ldsmith/Coleman%20Report.pdf ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 28 2014 at 8:21am
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The Coleman Report Con't Executive Summary: Federal Education Policy and the States, 1945-2009The Johnson Years: The Coleman Report - Equal Educational OpportunityIn 1966, in an attempt to resolve this dilemma, professor James Coleman and others at The Johns Hopkins University were commissioned by U.S. Commissioner of Education Harold Howe to conduct a major study of the question: which strategy was more likely to equalize educational opportunities for poor minority students-compensatory education or racial integration? http://www.archives.gov/research/electronic-records/civil-rights.html#rg012" rel="nofollow - Coleman's federally funded analysis , titled Equality of Educational Opportunity, concluded, first, that racial integration did little to boost academic achievement in urban schools. "Our interpretation of the data," Coleman wrote, "is that racial integration per se is unrelated to achievement insofar as the data can show a relationship." Coleman added, however, that compensatory education-whether offered in racially integrated or in racially segregated schools-was similarly unlikely to improve achievement levels. As Coleman explained, "differences in school facilities and curricula, which are made to improve schools, are so little related to differences in achievement levels of students that, with few exceptions, their efforts [or the effects of different classes or curricula] fail to appear in a survey of this magnitude." Some of the studies done as part of a re-analysis of Coleman's data at Harvard reached similar conclusions, suggesting that the best way to improve academic achievement was neither to integrate students nor to offer compensatory programs but, rather, to raise overall family income. According to the work of sociologist David Armor, "programs which stress financial aid to disadvantaged black families may be just [as] important, if not more so, than programs aimed at integrating blacks into white neighborhoods and schools." Still another study concluded that the "racial composition of the school . . . does not have a substantial effect [on academic achievement]-not nearly so strong as the social class composition of the school." In other words, when it came to improving academic achievement in the inner city, what mattered most was neither special programs nor racial integration but, rather, family background and socio-economic status. This conclusion became more and more established over time, but policies at the state and federal level nonetheless continued to focus primarily on narrow school-based reforms.
------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: blue7
Date Posted: Mar 29 2014 at 2:30pm
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Acclaro, that study pretty much sums up the problem in Middletown. Look around this city. It is much different now than the good old days. This city and the educational system was built on steel. The high paying jobs were working as much overtime as possible in a mill. Moms stayed at home or worked as teachers, nurses or secretaries. Our schools' curriculum and expectations were to educate a person enough to work in the blue collar system or the lucky few had the oppurtunity to go on to college. Fast forward a couple decades to No Child Left Behind. The education game changer. No longer could a student be passed through the system without the guarantee that they would at least be able to read the questions on a standardized test. Nice in theory, but causing nightmares for school administrations and systems. Especially those with working class cultures where education wasn't the central theme around the dinner table. So, what do you do with these kids who can't find the support they need to pass all of these tests? I mean, no two people are alike, and just because Johnny can't seem to pass this rigorous testing doesn't mean that he can just pass through the system, graduate, and go on to work in a trade job like the generations before him. No, we must now create special services for Johnny called IEPs and 504 plans that Johnny's teachers must follow to make sure Johnny has the same educational opportunities even though Johnny can't sit still long enough to read a paragraph. Johnny's dad works at a fast food place now, and his mom can't work because that would put them over the poverty line so they would lose all that support, medical and welfare based. But Johnny will pass those darn tests, even if they are alternative versions of the real one- because that's the way it is now. And that is just an example of parents who do actually care. If our city is so eaten up with drugs and crime, how do you think these peoples children are acting in school? Do you think they have a supportive network to tell and teach them how to pass these tests? Other than the teacher differentiating lesson plans for 20-30 students? What does this have to do with Vail? Well, the new ways of implementing supportive educational services need new technology and updated buildings to support that technology. Besides just being old and literally falling down. Ms. Andrews can't come on here and say, hey guys you all caused this problem with your Appalachian culture and years behind segregation issues. You guys built your city on sub par education, just good enough to read a time clock or TV manual. It will take decades to move this city's education system up enough to meet the standards of entry level freshman college English for the socioeconomic disadvantaged student. So what about those kids who are excelling? The kids who keep the test scores up or improving? Too bad so sad you smart, future college bound children. Sorry about your luck. We're going to stick you in a building in the middle of drug infested neighborhoods, expect you to make good choices, and also reward parents who decided to stick with this city- by keeping you there. Congrats for being a good kid, don't touch the hypodermic needles on the sidewalk. Just ask any of the 30-something parents with decent jobs and the chance to move. Ask them where they're are planning on sending little Emma or Jason. Theey will tell you that they're either moving, open enrolling to another district if they can, or going the private route. The poor fools (like me) who can't move or afford private are twiddling our thumbs because we also can't open enroll because of transportation issues. Will a new school improve test scores? Probably not. Will a new school improve behavior issues? Maybe. It could at least change the layout so the bad kids have less places to hide or the administration can keep an eye on things easier. And Johnny might have a better chance of learning in a more adequate environment. But Blue, this school system in MA got their scores up in 4 years, why can't we? I don't know. Maybe they fought the system and figured out how to get some kids more excited about reading than how they were going to eat dinner or got rid of homework because between watching their siblings and hustling, there wasn't much time. Or maybe they created magnent schools for those with different needs. Kind of like the charters in this town (they just need about 5 more to deal with our problems). Anyone remember Garfield? Welcome to the future. So what happens when Vail actually does need repaired but we don't have the funds or that levy fails? Who cares about the operating cost for heat or power. Just keep feeding the money pit. None of you would work without air conditioning on the third floor with a bunch of stinky hormonal 8th graders. I seriously doubt many of you would last a day in the trenches down there, unless you worked in the mills. I'm rambling, but reading this stuff is infuriating. Who cares about signs? Do something important with that extra time. Go create a historic society or try to improve your city by making the downtown nice... oh wait... |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Mar 29 2014 at 4:30pm
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Blue: You were doing well...until that last paragraph. It showed that you have a lot to learn. Go back to the school of life. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Mar 29 2014 at 4:48pm
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I'm rambling, but reading this stuff is infuriating. Who cares about signs? Really?....You don't think following the law is important? Do something important with that extra time. Go create a historic society or try to improve your city by making the downtown nice... oh wait... Blue surly you do not want me of all people to respond to this comment 
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Posted By: blue7
Date Posted: Mar 29 2014 at 6:59pm
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I just wanted to clarify that I do not work for MCSD and I'm not a teacher., if you can't tell from my terrible spelling and grammar. To be fair I am posting from my phone which is tedious and impossible to edit. I was joking/jabbing in that last paragraph. I know many here have worked towards improving this city. The only horse I have in this race are my kids and my community. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Mar 30 2014 at 8:40am
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Blue7 |