Sorg Mansion Flooded?
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown Community
Forum Name: Middletown News, Info and Happenings
Forum Description: Discuss any Middletown Ohio area news story.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5076
Printed Date: Nov 24 2024 at 8:15am
Topic: Sorg Mansion Flooded?
Posted By: Rhodes
Subject: Sorg Mansion Flooded?
Date Posted: Feb 23 2013 at 12:49pm
| Anyone know what is going on at the Sorg Mansion? There is some kind of pumping machinery and maybe a generator going. It's been there making noise for 2 days now. I looked this property up and it isn't pending anymore, it's marked as "withdrawn" from the market. |
Replies:
Posted By: Middletown29
Date Posted: Feb 24 2013 at 7:54pm
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Regardless, Finkelman family should be ashamed of the condition of the Sorg Mansion under their ownership. Take care of the property or transfer it to someone that will. |
Posted By: enough is enough
Date Posted: Feb 24 2013 at 8:20pm
If you look at the County Auditor website you will notice that the Sorg Mansion is at least $10,000 behind in property taxes. Maybe the Finkelman's are waiting for the city to snatch up this prime piece of real estate. The Commercial Realty Company tax mailing address is Finkelman Realty on Central Avenue. The slum lords just keep raking it in. Great job on maintaining a historical piece of history!------------- Enough is Enough |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Feb 24 2013 at 8:36pm
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Drove by there today--saw the flood trucks outside
Tough situation--more so than the Manchester
I recommended that they level it for a small strip/convenience/specialty center
You should have seen the looks I recieved from the neighborhood city staff--lol
I have never been inside of that place
Sorg Opera House property transfer didn't go all that well either
Amazing what the new owners have--jmo
|
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Feb 25 2013 at 12:13am
| So 3 days with the flood trucks, yet the electric lights on the first floor running just fine. I wonder what kind of flood it was. |
Posted By: Middletown29
Date Posted: Feb 25 2013 at 8:16am
| City should hold Finkelmans accountable for their neglect. |
Posted By: bumper
Date Posted: Feb 25 2013 at 8:23am
 
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Middletown29 wrote:Posted By: bumper
Date Posted: Feb 25 2013 at 9:11am
| maybe they had plans for an indoor swimming ho- tel... |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Feb 25 2013 at 10:32am
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Regardless, Finkelman family should be ashamed of the condition of the Sorg Mansion under their ownership. Take care of the property or transfer it to someone that will. Well Middletown29 just how many MILLIONS of dollars do you have invested in |
Posted By: Middletown29
Date Posted: Feb 25 2013 at 12:55pm
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Vivian I have owned my home and business in Middletown for almost 30 years. I take care of my property. The Finkelmans should take care of theirs |
Posted By: LMAO
Date Posted: Feb 25 2013 at 1:09pm
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Its all in the name. If your a Finkleman,Mulligan,Kohler,Gilliand, they can pretty much do as they please. |
Posted By: Miss Kitty
Date Posted: Feb 25 2013 at 1:18pm
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Middletown29, What is your business and home address so we can be the judge of how well you maintain your property. |
Posted By: Middletown29
Date Posted: Feb 25 2013 at 9:09pm
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I do not need your confirmation that I have maintained my property. It is obvious the Finkelmans do not. |
Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Feb 25 2013 at 9:54pm
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We're currently pumping out the tunnel that runs between the Sorg Mansion and Opera House (and possibly other downtown locations). |
Posted By: Richard Saunders
Date Posted: Feb 26 2013 at 3:28am
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"We" are currently pumping out the tunnel ..." Who is "we" and does it involve any taxpayer's money?
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Posted By: Middletown29
Date Posted: Feb 26 2013 at 1:36pm
| Miss Kitty, are you a Finkelman? |
Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Feb 26 2013 at 2:10pm
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Posted By: bumper
Date Posted: Feb 26 2013 at 3:06pm
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with city staff standing outside the place, thats sounding like they were thinking of what fund they can raid to pay for the pumping,there goes the well field fund and a few others now that would be some stink-ie stuff so looks like you will see an (BIG) increase on your sewer and tax bill for the next 20 years or so...
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Posted By: arwendt
Date Posted: Feb 26 2013 at 3:41pm
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#interesting ------------- “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my http://wordsoffreedom.wordpress.com/ - Words of Freedom website. |
Posted By: Murdock
Date Posted: Feb 26 2013 at 6:30pm
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Is this what Middletown considers a big news story OR is this blog really what people do when they have nothing better to do than worry about stuff thats likely none of their damn business to begin with? Just curious?
hope the city gets that water pumped out of the tunnels fast, Id hate to see them damaged!
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Posted By: enough is enough
Date Posted: Feb 26 2013 at 8:19pm
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Considering the condition the Sorg Mansion it would be hard to believe that the tunnels are in any better shape. I would be interested to know if these tunnels have any effect on the infrastucture of the raods in the downtown area. Maybe the mayor is concerned that his house might be swallowed by a big sink hole? Millions???? I did not realize that there was that much value in real estate in the south end of town. ------------- Enough is Enough |
Posted By: Murdock
Date Posted: Feb 27 2013 at 12:05pm
| According to one of your recent posts (a new direction), you packed your bags and left Middletown 7 years ago......hmmm?!?!?!! |
Posted By: Murdock
Date Posted: Feb 27 2013 at 12:08pm
But according to one of your recent posts (a new direction), you packed your bags and left Middletown 7 years ago......hmmm?!?!?!!
|
Posted By: bumper
Date Posted: Feb 27 2013 at 12:36pm
oooboy!!!! have nothing better to do than worry about stuff thats likely none of your damn business to begin with? hmmmmm?!?!?!
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Posted By: Miss Kitty
Date Posted: Feb 28 2013 at 9:35am
No, I am not a Finkelman Midd29, just a property owner in Middletown for almost 30 years! |
Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Mar 01 2013 at 3:36pm
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Mar 01 2013 at 3:47pm
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Wow--cool pics Tudor Wouldn't want to have to deal with that Take me in that place and down there! |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Mar 01 2013 at 4:39pm
| Where is this? |
Posted By: VictoiranLover
Date Posted: Mar 01 2013 at 9:31pm
I was through the Mansion with Rachel Finkelman back in May of 2011. Its a beautiful house. I asked about the tunnels, the realtor has to give full disclosure. She said there are no tunnels under the house. Then again how would she know... their family never maintained the property even tho they have owned it for approximately 65 years+. It was a shame to see the water damage from the leaking roof, the missing wood work, the bathrooms that were in poor condition and the once beautiful stained glass. I can imagine the millions it will take to restore the once grand and stately home. If there are tunnels that is an amazing story, I know going through the house there are no passageways in the basement.
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Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 02 2013 at 7:58am
| Oh wow... is that photo the real thing? |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Mar 02 2013 at 10:07am
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Reminds me of Phantom of the Opera Christine! The Angel of Music! |
Posted By: bumper
Date Posted: Mar 02 2013 at 12:15pm
oooo man i would love to explore down there, thats some cool beans!!!  gotta be neat being the 1st ones down in there... wonder how long anyone been down thru there besides a few alligators
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Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 02 2013 at 3:21pm
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I hope TudorBrown doesn't mind that I broke into his camera and stole the tunnel image and was able to remove the date, clean up the image, and make it bigger!  |
Posted By: VictoiranLover
Date Posted: Mar 05 2013 at 5:01pm
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I checked with the City Engineer and he also had heard of the
rumoured tunnels but had no drawings or any proof of such. He doubted
they still exist, if they ever did, due to all the utility construction
over the years. Regardless he did not think they would add to any
flooding issues.
In regards to the flooding he also had not heard of
any recent flooding issues. There are combined storm/sewer lines in
that area but he said it would take a monumental rain to cause any
backup issues. Also, the downtown is protected from the river by levees
built after the great flooding of 1913. He assured me that any
downtown flooding would be something of a very rare event indeed. |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Mar 05 2013 at 5:48pm
| So is there a tunnel or not? I'm confused. |
Posted By: VictoiranLover
Date Posted: Mar 06 2013 at 3:11am
| By the sounds of it many Middletonians should be writers. They seem to come up with some great storys. Realtors have to give full disclosure by law. I asked Rachel Finkelman about the tunnels and she said that they didnt exist. I took it to the next level, the city engineer and he said basically the same thing, they dont exist. So take it for whats its worth. I guess the tunnels are like the shroud of Turnin. People believe in its existence, science denies it. If you believe in it enough anything can be true. I would like to know why there were pumper trucks out front of the house. That is the one question I didnt get an answer for. It wasnt for pumping out the tunnnels. The house has been taken off the Market after being listed for over 1,000 days. Rachel is still accepting offers on the house and she is still asking $500,000. The house needs a minimum of 750K not counting working on the carriage house or the Duplex. Which is the oldest house in Middletown seeing the "oldest house caught fire a couple years back.Its bad when I live 8 hours north and in a completely different state and I can find this info out. Its a matter of public record. Atleast you dont have to worry about flooding seeing what happened in 1913. The city learned from that lesson. |
Posted By: VictoiranLover
Date Posted: Mar 06 2013 at 3:17am
I also would like to know who "We" entails. Did you purchase the estate? Do you work for the city, county? If you purchased the estate what are your plans with the structure? You sure were vague about the whole posting. I was hoping you could fill in some of the blank areas that are in your story... Dazed and confused....
|
Posted By: VictoiranLover
Date Posted: Mar 06 2013 at 3:18am
| Sorry, my last comment was for TudorBrown... |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 06 2013 at 8:52am
| When "science" can show how it was possible for someone in the 1400's to perfectly "fake" the Shroud of Turin, then you can use that as an example! Professing themselves wise, they became fools. |
Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Mar 06 2013 at 10:57am
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According to my dad who use to do survey work for Kaiser in the 60's, he said that Middletown has a really high water table, and in fact some of the buildings at AK Steel and the Coke Plants are basically floating, and the water needs to be pumped out and back to the Miami River continually to keep it from flooding. So it would not be out of the realm of possibility the the water table has risen enough to flood the building.
I don't know if this is still the case today.
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Mar 06 2013 at 12:39pm
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A wise man can be a fool but a fool can never be a wise man
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Mar 06 2013 at 4:29pm
I don’t believe for one minute that picture is a tunnel underneath Sorg Mansion. Re: the oldest home in Middletown. You mentioned the home on South Main Street that was destroyed by fire a few years back. That home was the oldest home still in its original location built in 1827. Middletown’s oldest home was moved to Thorn Hill Lane in the 1950s. Its construction date I believe is 1825, and is a good example of federal-style architecture. The oldest home now in the South Main Historic District, I believe, is the pinkish-colored home at the corner of Second and Main. I find it interesting the Middletown Journal is quick to report the fact that there are thousands of dollars in back taxes owed, but doesn’t press Rachel on why that’s the case when they did in fact interview her for the story that was recently published. Nor do I believe she has real interest in selling it. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Mar 06 2013 at 6:01pm
And it is Ms. Lewitt's business whether or not she sells (or does anything else) with her private property!!
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Mar 06 2013 at 6:25pm
| It is the public's business when she fails to pay property tax owed. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Mar 06 2013 at 6:34pm
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Mar 06 2013 at 6:47pm
|
And need I point out that that it will be harder yet for Ms. Lewitt (or any potential buyer) to pay the high property taxes once the assessment for the new, phony gas lamp posts and lights are added to the tax bill?? Thank goodness she (or any potential buyer) won't have to pay for the power and maintenance of these lights. I'm sure that the energy costs for this property are high enough and the owner shouldn't be burdened with the costs of power and maintenance for decorative lights for the property. That's what the rest of us taxpayers are for...right???
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Mar 06 2013 at 8:50pm
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http://fineartamerica.com/featured/flooded-tunnel-steev-stamford.html" rel="nofollow - http://fineartamerica.com/featured/flooded-tunnel-steev-stamford.html Go to link...
Read description to the right... Note where it states Flood effect digitally applied |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Mar 06 2013 at 10:02pm
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Mar 07 2013 at 9:25am
| You can't trust any pictures anymore thanks to Photoshop |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Mar 07 2013 at 10:09am
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WOW I'm going to have my picture taken and have it "photoshopped" so I can look like Brad Pitt
|
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 07 2013 at 7:43pm
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Apparently my post on March 2nd flew right over some of your heads. I already uncovered the FRAUD of the FAKE tunnel photo and posted the original image itself. Mr. Presta, the "Nice find" pat on the head should have been given to me. I'm surprised you slipped on that one, you're usually more thorough.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Mar 08 2013 at 4:41am
Please accept my apologies!!! I did notice that you cleaned up the image, made it bigger, and removed the date...but I certainly admit that it got by me that this was done to expose the fraud. I have been observing an ongoing debate on another website regarding the existence (or lack thereof) of the "Sorg tunnels", including some posts by noted photographers and others who have the skills necessary to enhance photographs. This led me to think your post might've been submitted with the enhancements to assist the viewers in judging for themselves. Pacman's post revealed the website with the photographer's identity, and hence his background and location to me. I sincerely regret my error, and do hope that you will forgive me. I assure you that it was not intentional. My aim is always the truth, and giving credit where credit is due. Had I been astute enough to realize that you uncovered the fraud before Pacman, I would've been happy to to have given you the "nice find" head pat, or even a pat a little lower on the anatomy, depending upon your gender!!! Best Regards, Mike ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Mar 08 2013 at 8:06am
|
Tunnels in the Sorg Mansion would not be outside the realm of possibility.I know that downtown Springboro had a tunnel system that ran from one end of town to the other end of town to protect African American Slaves on their way up north. In-fact I was also told growing up that during the blizzard of 1978 people used the tunnels to get from downtown Springboro to IGA. I would be curious to know if Middletown did anything similar like that back then. |
Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 08 2013 at 11:26am
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Mike, you are forgiven! However, I was being sarcastic about cleaning up TudorBrown's image. I didn't steal it from his camera, clean it up, remove the date, or anything like that. I uploaded it from the exact website Pacman posted. I thought some of you detective types would do what I did, which was go to images.google.com, click the camera icon and put the URL of the fake image which would then search the web to see if it exists elsewhere. So the photo I posted was actually a copy of the original that TudorBrown obviously had some photoshop fun with to make it look like a bad mobile phone cam photo taken in a tunnel. I have to say very good job to TudorBrown b/c even I was fooled at first.
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Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Mar 08 2013 at 11:41am
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On the property tax issue. It is NOT the public's interest if the Finkelman family is behind on the tax bill. That is insane to think it is your business. Everyone picks on the Finkelman family all the time over the condition of this property. Look at it this way, had Harry Finkelman not kept the property the way he did, it most likely would have long been gone. Nobody even wants it now. All the people that keep bringing up the very tiny tax amount owed can't afford the property anyways.. So what is your point? If someone is late with property taxes they are fined. If they choose to pay it late and pay the fine why is that any of your business? Maybe if you minded your own business and had some "business" then maybe you could waste your money on the Sorg Mansion and then demonstrate how unintelligent you are by pouring money down the drain. All that has been going on since it went up for sale is a bunch of unqualified dreamers have tried to buy it hoping to get FREE money to fix the property. So these same people whining about a very insignificant property tax amount are the EXACT same people wanting or promoting the idea of using grant money to rehab the property. For those of you that don't know, grant money comes from our TAXES. So all you people that post like old lady gossipers about the property taxes are nothing more than HYPOCRITES. I won't call out any single poster, but to the ones that openly think it is everyone's business... You sure don't seem to mind the amount of tax dollars funneled into some downtown business that never get repaid. You sure don't seem to mind some Duke bills paid in certain ways... and that's all I'll say about Duke bills. If you're going to be a hypocrite, please do it in private.
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Posted By: VictoiranLover
Date Posted: Apr 22 2013 at 10:08pm
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Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Apr 23 2013 at 3:57pm
| Just tear it down and make more parking lots for the booming downtown area. |
Posted By: mihousenut
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 7:01pm
|
I looked at the Sorg Mansion back in 2008 to turn it into a bed and breakfast/wedding venue/spa, and I have to say there are no tunnels. Concerning the house and the fact that it is for sale, I talked with several people from city Government, revitalization, and such, at lenght to see if there were any funds available for work, any at all, and was basically told no. My drive into Middletown was greeted with lots of vacant storefronts, and empty sidewalks...a real estate search showed that houses on South Main, were not worth much at all, even the 10,000 sq ft tudor just down the road, restored mind you, sold for less than 200K. I estimated that the work for me to do, would run in the neighborhood of 1M dollars, and most of that would never be recovered. I could not justify spending that kind of money out of my own pocket, even though I really love the house and property, just not the city...sorry folks...but that is how I feel... Just my two cents...from a person who would have purchased, but could not make it work from a business plan. Personally I think the Finklemans should let it go for less than 50K, but put stipulations on the property that it not be torn down, or ransacked, which might make it more palatable financially to anyone who may be interested in it. The problem might lie also in the fact there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 17 heirs to the property, and they would all have to agree to a price.
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: May 08 2013 at 8:11pm
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mihousenut, Sounds to me like you made a wise decision. Pacman  |
Posted By: mihousenut
Date Posted: Jul 08 2013 at 12:09pm
| Thanks pacman...I agree that we did too, although I am saddened by the deterioration of the Sorg Mansion...we did purchase another property and have turned it into a successfull Inn... |
Posted By: Wots
Date Posted: Jul 09 2013 at 11:59am
|
Just out of a curiosity, how was the mansion heated?
Reason I'm asking is that several "executive houses"
in Pullman, Illinois (now Chicago) were heated from the Pullman Palace Car
Company using exhaust steam. The steam was piped to these houses using service
tunnels.
Were any building in the downtown area using such a
servace? ------------- Wots Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers. |
Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Jul 09 2013 at 2:48pm
|
A boiler in the basement, that never worked properly. |
Posted By: Miss Kitty
Date Posted: Jul 10 2013 at 3:42pm
| Mihousenuts, Where is your Inn located? Is it close to Middletown? |
Posted By: darcy1969
Date Posted: Jul 15 2013 at 8:56am
|
There's a law I heard that if you pay property taxes on a piece of real estate then you get it by default when owners can't handle it anymore. Anybody heard of that in this area? I would think there are a lot of properties that someone with some money could do that with around here. Basically someone else paying the taxes puts a lien on the property and when not paid the lienholder can own it. Who can take on the Sorg and put on some shows again? ------------- Darcia |
Posted By: mihousenut
Date Posted: Mar 17 2014 at 8:44pm
|
Sorry for the long delay in responding back to your question from last year, I am located in Michigan, but fell in love with the Sorg. A short bittersweet romance, that ended on paperwork. I really hope that the new owners can make a go of it, obviously they love the house, and "might" turn it into a bed and breakfast, which they should, cause as a house, it will just be a tax liability, and a beautiful one at that. The only chance to "recover" any investments would be to run it as a business, a destination if you will, weddings, getaways, or the like, cause there is not much of a draw to the city. The boiler, is a gravity feed, with enclosed radiators in the basement that heated it would rise through venting to the rooms, which meant the entire house smelled like a musty basement when the furnace was running. At the time I looked at it, there were still tenants who for various did not wish to be intruded upon, I am sure you know why, but I have to say the home was jaw dropping to say the least. Glad to see it sold, and wish the new homeowners all the best. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Mar 17 2014 at 10:41pm
Making such a statement certainly makes you a persona non grata with City Hall and the South Main Street Gang. Be very careful if you ever return to Middletown as you will likely be shot on sight...or, at the very least, pilloried in Governor's Square or Old South Park. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Neil Barille
Date Posted: Mar 18 2014 at 7:37am
| Mike, don't you mean "Olde South Parke"? |
Posted By: FmrMide81
Date Posted: Mar 18 2014 at 9:12am
| Or drawn and quartered on those fancy new light poles (at 25 mph, of course...) |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Mar 18 2014 at 9:20am
| Why don't we just let them secede from Middletown they can call it The village of Olde South Parke and Marty and the Mulligan boys can be mayor,vice mayor and village manger. Good riddance! LOL |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 18 2014 at 10:09am
|
Or write on the chalkboard 1,000,000 times: "Bright past, brighter future; keeping the momentum forward", or AKA, "12 years As A Chalk Board Writer." _______________________________________ Bar set pretty low isn't? By http://www.journal-news.com/staff/rick-mccrabb/" rel="nofollow - Rick McCrabb Staff Writer MIDDLETOWN — Middletown is searching around the world for its next city manager. The job has been posted with the International City/County Management Association, Ohio City Management and the National Forum for Black Public Administrators, said Don Vermillion, who the city hired as the search consultant. Vermilion, who is being paid $12,000 by the city, said resumes are arriving and the deadline is April 25. Judy Gilleland, the city’s manager since 2008, sent a letter to City Council several months ago announcing her retirement effective June 6, 2014, though she may delay that until her replacement has been approved. Vermillion, director of public projects at the Fitz Center at the University of Dayton, said city council will review all the applicants and determine which candidates to interview. The goal, he said, is to have a candidate named by June 10. Vermillion also helped Vandalia with its search for a city manager. Doug Adkins, Middletown director of economic development for the last five years, was one of the three finalists, but Tipp City City Manager Jon Crusey was named to the position. Noah Powers, the city’s director of human resources, said surveys are being sent out to city staff, business leaders and residents asking their input on the next city manager. Mayor Lawrence P. Mulligan Jr. said council hopes to hire someone with management skills to “continue our forward momentum.” Gilleland’s salary is $127,654. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Mar 18 2014 at 10:14am
However, if Middletown would "de-annex" downtown and the two historic districts, then maybe the rest of the city could begin to move forward again!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Mar 18 2014 at 10:19am
|
How about sanctions on them, and the two "historic" districts where they can't access their First Financial accounts? Maybe Obama and Kerry can help. ------------- 'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill |
Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Mar 18 2014 at 10:54am
| With our mayor being a player with First Financial I'm sure he'd be glad to help.Is the many accounts the city has with First a conflict of interest with the mayor employed there? Just asking. |