A.J. Smith
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: City Council
Forum Description: Discuss individual members and council as a legislative body.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3776
Printed Date: Nov 21 2024 at 7:58pm
Topic: A.J. Smith
Posted By: 409
Subject: A.J. Smith
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 12:06am
From the MJ:Smith criticized again for ‘embarrassing’ behavior Councilman told to choose between seat, his personal beliefs.By Jessica Heffner, Staff Writer 11:39 PM Tuesday, April 5, 2011 MIDDLETOWN — Councilman A.J. Smith found himself under fire again Tuesday night as another Council member said he must choose between his seat and personal beliefs. During council member comments at Tuesday night’s meeting, First Ward Councilman Dan Picard told Smith he must choose between his personal beliefs and his obligation as a councilman. To date, Picard said he has been “impressed by (Smith’s) mature behavior and at times embarrassed to sit on the same council.” Picard said he felt compelled to publicly confront Smith after the city was forced to provide extensive police security at Mayor Larry Mulligan’s State of the City address Thursday. Before the speech, Smith was part of a rally against Ohio Senate Bill 5 and Mulligan’s support of some portions of the bill. It was staged out front of the Pendleton Art Center, where the address was held. The AFL-CIO — the same group Smith rallied to attend a December City Council meeting that addressed collective bargaining rights — held the event. The event required increased security and four days of meeting and planning by city staff — costs Picard said Middletown can ill-afford at the expense of Smith’s political beliefs. “As a councilman I don’t think that is appropriate given what we have discussed tonight,” Picard said. There have also been other personal and financial costs to the city, Picard said, by Smith’s public run-ins with police and continual requests for extensive information from city staff. While City Council has no power to remove him — only a petition by the 2nd Ward, which Smith represents, can do that — Picard said Smith has not been able to put his “personal crusades” before the best interest of his constituents. “For the benefit of all the citizens of Middletown it is time for you to decide,” Picard said during the meeting. Smith said he does not intend to step down and that he is not on council for any “personal or self-gratification.” Smith said his recent actions against Senate Bill 5 have been on behalf of his constituents — the middle- and working-classes — and he will continue to be their advocate. “There are going to be some things you are going to be uncomfortable with, there are going to be things other people on this dais are going to be uncomfortable with. That is just the way it is,” he said. Mulligan ultimately got in the last word about the rally when he subtilely tied the rally and Smith to Middletown’s budget issues — and the $1 million in deficit spending outlined for this year. “We do not make light of it with demonstrations and other outside events that degrade the importance of it,” Mulligan. Cuts may be ahead During the Council work session, members received information that the city is facing a negative cash flow in 2011 due to rising personnel costs and decreasing revenues. The city will lose more than $221,000 this year and another $664,000 in 2012 due to state cuts to the local government fund. Finance Director Russ Carolus said those losses coupled with the potential end of the quarter-percent public safety levy decimate the approximate $6 million Middletown has in its reserve fund and can lead to a loss of more than $1.8 million by 2013 if something isn’t done. The public safety levy brings in roughly $2 million annually for the police and fire divisions through income taxes. It expires at the end of 2012. While councilmembers have indicated they will likely ask voters to renew that levy, it’s passage is uncertain. Councilman Josh Laubach said the levy would be a hard sell to residents given that cuts to public safety may be unavoidable given the city’s financial state. He said the city’s personnel costs — about $24 million of the city’s total budget — are of particular concern. “It’s not so much a revenue issue as an expense issue,” Laubach said. “We are spending far more money than we are supposed to.” City Manager Judy Gilleland stressed that the city cannot afford to liquidate its reserve fund past 15 percent if Council hopes to foster projects such as a new Cincinnati State branch campus. A lower balance would negatively impact the city’s financial rating and ability to borrow funds. Council set a special work session to discuss the budget May 5 at 5 p.m.
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Replies:
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 5:24am
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I canagree with only one pin made by Mr.Picard and that is Mr. Smith;s political union agendadominates his focus upon Middletown and his role on council. To state as Smith did, the issue is about the middle-classis demenaing to any reasonable mind and a true 'dummy down'. It won't hunt Mr. Smith, no crdibility in that argument. You are simpy carrying Harry reid and Obama's water, as simple as that.
So, what is Mr. Picard's motivation and use of the slight hyperbole associated with city coss. That also is a bit of a Piccochia nose growing exaggeration. I saw maybe 10 peope outside, including Joh Harvey, a fire fighting employee. It was actualy embarrassing hiw few were there, and the gathering was hardly a threat to human safety. The city wastes 1,000X more Mr. Oicard on consultants, studies,and paybacks for the money Greg Pratt advanced for the failed airport carrier deal (by the way did that work go out to bid for Pratt as his gift to act asan economic ambassador to Cincinnatti State) than any funding for a few poiice officers to be in attendance. I see more daily running from store to store around Meijer's, the Goodwill, Kroger's, and the east end, killing time, than the man hrs expended on the 'threat' of the safety of Mr. Mulligan from the immenient danger of a fellow city worker named Jon Harvey. I wouldn't even call it a gathering. They looked like mild mannered people who had no impact being effective advocates and everyone gets it. You can't send mre than what you take in. The syetm is broken. No one going to support this because of them middle class servant being mademoe than those paying the bill to be seved, with few services being ofered.
Finally, a ecall isn't worth the effort. He would have to have at least 15-20% if the second ward pushing him out on votes, which the apathy would be a stalemate, and they are already a bit sore over the ward crush by MMF, so quit wasting time Mr. Picard on that advocation.
The only way AJ is going is if he fails to get his campaign funds in order. I think that prospective is highly likely, and will take care of the other issues. But please Mr. Picard, while agreeing and crealing knowing what Smith's agenda to be, you nor council can force him out. And the city wastes hundreds of thousands of dollars more in retirement payout for vacation and 'time earned' than a few policemen standing guard like secret secrice agents protecting Larry Mulligan.
Please stop the dummy down, both you Mr. Oicard and you Mr. Smith.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 5:39am
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I realize that Mr. Smith did not have a teleprompter, but I do hope that he watches the replay and realizes how insulting he appeared to about half the voters in Middletown (the Republicans.) Here's a clue, Mr. Smith: Very few Middletown Republicans are either CEOs, Wall Street Bankers, or other greedy fat cat-types. In fact, few Republicans from Middletown in my memory have ever had near the campaign war chest that YOU had in your last campaign. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 6:54am
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I was at the council meeting last night but was forced to leave early because of the seats in the chamber. Just can't sit there that long. I did attend the upstairs meeting where there was a total of 2 people that would be considered the "public"; the reporter from the Journal and myself. Now, of course, I wish I had stayed for council comments.
I also attended the protest rally outside the PAC before the Mayor's State of the City. If the city called the police presence outside the PAC during the protest "extensive", they might want to find a dictionary and look up that word. I would not have categorized it as such and considering that the protest itself was in support of the very same public workers who were providing the security, I'm not sure what kind of "protection" the mayor needed. There was no disturbance, no one got out of line, nothing was thrown either verbally or physically, and IMO not much was accomplished.
I am deeply disturbed that the in-fighting on council has gotten to the point where we have members calling on each other's removal or defeat at the polls. This is not the way the business of the city needs to be conducted. I will also say this; just because we have free speech in this country is not a good enough reason to open your mouth without thinking. I don't wish to see this city's dirty laundry aired in public and viewed by anyone outside the city as divided and ineffective. It certainly doesn't paint a good picture for the people at Cincy State to look at, does it? This would have been one of those times to take advantage of the "semi-secret" meeting to air your grievances with each other.
I am also deeply insulted by the manner of choice presented. Choose between your seat on council and your personal beliefs? I would hope that "personal beliefs" are what motivate our present council to serve.The idea that one should suspend those beliefs because they don't agree with someone else on council sounds like coertion or another one of those "my way or the highway" moments. I am embarrassed that our mayor decided to use his State of the City address to tell dissenters that he'd rather have them leave town than voice that dissent. Should someone on council have called on him to resign? Evidently then, the mayor has the tacit approval of council to tell those that don't agree to just get out of town. Is that really the message that this council wants sent to the citizens?
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 7:22am
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Tony B:
You write: "I don't wish to see this city's dirty laundry aired in public and viewed by anyone outside the city as divided and ineffective" Too late. Middletown already has a reputation involving dirty laundry being aired in public view. Happened a few years ago. Go to You Tube, punch in Middletown City Council and watch the shenanigans of Laura Williams, David Schiavone and the late Bob Wells acting as mayor. Good entertainment, embarrassing for the city and was a catalyst for the city's reputation as being a comedy as to a hay-seed city government. "I am embarrassed that our mayor decided to use his State of the City address to tell dissenters that he'd rather have them leave town than voice that dissent". Shouldn't surprise anyone who has lived here for any length of time. "My way or the highway" has been the city leader's slogan for years. |
Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 7:23am
| Well said Mr. Presta-I'm learning that Mr. Smith as was stated in the other post isn't going away and from what I understand still has a campaign fund issue to deal with. Other money "wasted" by this city? Without a doubt everyone has a opinion on how this Admin. and past councils have spent OUR money but I can only imagine since I have never run for office how old this subject is becoming to the other six members of council. The 2nd ward happy with Mr. Smith? Bold statement since the turnout to vote is the lowest in the town, from the numbers i've seen. Mr. Smith needs to focus on Middletown which showed last night with making it clear do we put a bandaid on the canal or fix the damn thing once and for all. Credit to Ms. Jones for putting the residences first. Regardless of the short comings of the other members Mr.Smith put your energy into keeping the local Admin. on the start and narrow and stop acting like you know what it's like to wake up at 4am go to work 6 days a wk or own your on business, it's insulting. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 7:27am
| I just re-read the article above and something struck me as odd. Mr. Smith is being criticized for "continual requests for extensive information from city staff." Isn't that part of the job description? How would you be able to provide guidance to the city staff without extensive information? The city manager asked council for just that, "guidance" , during the upstairs work session. As I mentioned in a previous thread, the city financial planning is severly hampered by all the confusion at the state level over funding. Without information, no true guidance can be offered because there is no awareness of the situation. That sounds more like Mr. Smith is doing what he is supposed to do instead of the opposite. Am I missing something? |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 7:36am
| Vet - that just goes to show you how little I paid attention to our city council over the years. I'll cop a plea of "guilty of apathy". |
Posted By: Middletown29
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 7:40am
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Picard is a hypocrite. He requests information from the City regularly. He meets with or talks with Les Landon regularly.
He tells Councilman Laubach to "shut up" in a public meeting. He want Smith to change his behavior? Seems Picard should clean up his own house before he worries about others. |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 9:02am
| I recall one council meeting where AJ was once again claiming that one of his "constituents" was asking questions and so he needed a report from Judy on every dime spent. Judy brushed him off and said it's all been provided. AJ seems to think that if he can find a bogeyman --- like overspending on some paperclips or printer ink, that he will be a fiscal hero and that will distract from the true cost which is the actual payroll numbers. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 9:30am
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This every other Tuesday sideshow has gone on long enough
1. We paid a consultant HOW MUCH to come up with last night's plan to remedy the canal mess(which has been kicked down the road for 20+ years now)? And THAT was the plan the consultant and Mr.Duritsch arrived upon? We should apologize to Mr.Barge for once again stringing him along and wasting a lot of his time. IF this canal mess was near Beau Verre, Pendleton, the former Manchester Inn or the S Main hysterical district, it would have been fixed long ago, and the affected residents would have been given thousands of taxpayer $$ for their "suffering". Just look at the quick response and expense to fix a hole on that dumb bike path(directly behind the S Main district).
2. AJ screwed up participating as he did with the protest. 4 days of police and security planning for that event with 20+ well-behaved "protesters"? Are we scared of AJ-Dora Bronston-John Harvey-a Dem leader and 10 other human beings? Get real. How much public $$ was wasted on the pomp and protocol associated with the Mayor's "my way or the highway" speech? Talk about waste and over-kill!
3. Council comments--have denigrated to personal vendettas and name-calling. Embarrassing to everyone. AJ--the Mayor-Mr.Picard--all pots calling the kettle black. Get rid of Council Comments asap.
4. Scapegoating--So now they don't do anything(outside of feeding their enablers in the former downtown area) to maintain Council and Admin's funamental responsibilities and expenditures? Just say "we can't afford it" and blame it all on AJ Smith? Too easy. hupocritical and transparent. Most of these festering issues(canal, infrastructure, waste in the former downtown, industry exodus, property values plummeting)
were in motion about the time AJ Smith(and Josh Laubaugh) were born.
5. Visited Pendleton yesterday. Bought a good sandwich from the catering firm. Nice people--I was the only person there at 12:30. There were NO studios open and very little activity. So--just what is to go on there between once-a-month Fridays? How is this project going to enhance the every day area activity and economy?
Council meetings + special "work sessions" are producing NOTHING outside of a lot of double talk and shirking of basic fundamental responsibilty. This Council is a complete mess from right to left. Our Mayor is extremely biased-Mr.Allen is un-responsive and offers little. Mr.Becker could help, but doesn't. AJ and Mr.Picard don't get it. Anita does her job well, however it has become lost in her extensive rhetoric.
We need ALL new members who can position Admin to do the job as directed without this distractive bickering, personal fighting and in-decision.
Last night's meeting once again takes the f'n cake. Embarrassing, non-productive, passing the buck.
We need to put this group to bed, out on the streets, once and for all.
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Posted By: Middletown29
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 9:57am
| Well said spiderjohn, well said! |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 10:20am
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Spider - nice post; I do have one small issue. I live behind the Historical District and let me tell you, the sewers here stink to high heaven!!! If that sewer line they're fixing now solves the problem, I'll be both pleased and surprised.
Most people don't have much of an idea how an artist's studio works. You're not going to see a lot of people there except for public events. The studios are either for the artist to work on art or to bring finished art to sell during public events. If they are there and working, the door will probably be closed. It would be akin to being at work and having someone follow you around otherwise. Artist usually do their work alone. You are correct that the PAC is not an every day economic activity. I have said as much in other posts. I'll also say what I've said in other posts; if you want to make the downtown an arts center, you need entertainment as the economic engine to drive it. There are 2 theater buildings within 2 blocks of the PAC. The one is about to be demolished by the city. The other was sold to a private investor who seems to be doing the same.IMO, that is where the potential lies for downtown. Want to keep those students you plan on attracting with Cincy State downtown after class? ENTERTAINMENT!!!
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Posted By: LMAO
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 11:07am
Whats it going to take For A.J. to realize that 99.9999% of people in Middletucky dont want him around anymore? Maybe he needs to be smacked down again by the ladies again.
A.J.if your reading this Please get one of your Union buddies to give you a ride out of town. Dont go away mad,just go away.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 11:11am
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As usual, very nice layout of the facts amongst the intended smoe sj. Lets evaluate this hypocrisy. AJ Smith is the new 'whipping boy', the poster child with the fact Middletown for two years, has been dipping into the once sancramount 25% rainy day reserve in the general fund, and for two years, its been spent down to 15%.
Why ol AJ has casued $ Mm to be spent having a few officers drie to Appelebee's, and at least that amount to have 60 swat team members practice maneuavers and stage conbat on the roof tops throughout Middletown. If it wasn't for AJ Smithopine Dan Picard, Larry Mulligan, Ms. G, and others, by golly, our onceuntouchable 25% rainy day reserve fund that was to make certain the interest rates were low, the bond rating MINT, would have never been touched. What a nusance, and convenient 'whipping boy' this AJ Smith to be.
What hypocrisy. I did not vote for AJ Smith, I do not agree with his actions, I don't like his agenda using the union agenda to advance his Demorcrat career objectives BUT, he did not cost the city $ Mm, and hardly his minor indiscertion at Applebee's and a gathering of 15-20 peaceful folks outsidePAC, including a few public workers, did not mandate the SWAT team and undecover CIA agents to be roaming up and down Main Street and beyond. Hyperbole and 'whipping boy' mentality to use a fall guy for taking a once untouchable 25%financial reserve to 15% as no one wants to cut, has no more credibility nor commands respect, than the blatant pandering to the union by Mr. Smith. Both are equally guilty; Mr. Smith just doesn't cost as much for his indiscretions.
I still wonder why there was nobid to retain Greg Pratt to fluff and buff Middletown up in Cincinnnati State eyes, as well as the employee of MUM, now working part-time as an Economic Director?
Imagine when that 1.75% tax rate is rolled back to 1.5% next year. Can you imagine the billboards the city will roll out; 'If this levy fails its attributed solely to the tens of $Mm spent in monioring and putting out all the fires of AJ Smith.' To control AJ Smith, this levey MUST PASS.
It just won't end....just when we thought it was safe to come outside again after Laura Willams and Dave Schiavone left.
TonyB, thanks to the venue sj has lined up, the entertainment for Cincinnati State can be found at MUM< and the city is giving them the whole downtown. I told you they will have a frat/ sorority row the envy of Ohio State by next fall down Main Street.
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 11:42am
| acclaro,Wow, I hope you're right about the frat row on Main St. Party City!!! where's my toga!!! rotf |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 11:52am
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spiderjohn, I meant to comment on your point on Dave Duritsch and kicking the can down the road 20 years. When the levy was attempted at 2.25%, the can had been kicked so far down they were projecting it would take 50 years to repair the roads throughout time, and by then, receyle again. That was when oil, a significant driver, was well below the $2.00 gal range, used extendsively in asphalt, which is chemical laden. Now that we are hitting $4.00 a gallon, and 110/ barrel for crude, what do you think the cost to repair the streets to be? In the range of >$200 Mm? Kikcing the can and refusing to deal with issues is costing you, bloggers, your property value. Middletown is now entering the 30-40 year projection Paul Ryan has projected nationally, when entitlements and expenditures cannot be paid for as GDP covers 40% of debt. That is now the position of Middletown.
Its from kicking the can down the road, using funds for infratsructure for salalries, and putting your house in a position you'd be fortunately to give it away. They are bow spending 10% of the reserve in city hall, just 5 years ago, they said the ramifications would be horrific. That of course, is all the fault of AJ Smith---as council gets its orders to aim on him and to keep out the 2nd ward voters in the elections this fall.
Want a glimpse of what the national projection in the US will be within 40 years? Its in Middletown. The cause---kicking the can downward. Who pays? You do---you have seen your property plummet. Think its all tied to the global 2008 derivative meltdown? No. Ask any reputable realtor---they all say the same: only way to get a buyer into Middletown is a fire sale that makes K Mart Blue Light special look like shopping at Tiffany's.
It is not AJ Smith that caused this mess.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 12:14pm
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The gift that just keeps givingafter reading the initial MJ article above again:
"City Manager Judy Gilleland stressed that the city cannot afford to liquidate its reserve fund past 15 percent if Council hopes to foster projects such as a new Cincinnati State branch campus. A lower balance would negatively impact the city’s financial rating and ability to borrow funds." The little pig that cried wolf again and again- just a few years ago, it COULD NOT DROP PAST 25%, but now 15% os acceptable. Projects like Cincinnati State? Great, we won't have the miney to waste for no defined return. After the levy fails, they will drawl down to 10%, but it cannot go below 10% for the reasons cited when it could not go below 25%!
“It’s not so much a revenue issue as an expense issue,” Laubach said. “We are spending far more money than we are supposed to.” Quotes Josh Laubauh.
No Mr. Lambaugh, it is both. The city spents too much money and takes in few too little in tax revenue as business is not being attracted. The Economic Development failure is widely apparent. Just wait until the housing market and accompanying property taxes crumble over the next 3 years. Now add to that, the rerturn to the needed 1.5% tax, ouch for Middletown, no wonder so many are selling now as the writing is on the wall.
TonyB- The Animal House food fight on Frat/ sorority row will be catered by a combination of Johnny Java's and Cincinnati State Culinary. I hope they don't keep Mr. Mulligan and Mr. Kohler up too late with their noise. Toga, Toga, Toga.... |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 12:18pm
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acclaro, we have a Bright Future ™ |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 12:38pm
| Bill, ever get the feeling we are on a rdderless ship, spinning in circles? I do, daily. Yes, Bright Past, Brighetr Future. If only those businesses and home owners outside of Middletown belived this to be true. Lets take wagers, will the rainy day reserve get down to 5% by 2013? Or 0%. Thank goodness for all those 75 jobs SunCoke is bringing in, and Cincinnati State, when they decide when they are coming, what their curriculum to be, how many adminsitartors and faculty to be here, and how many students. Proably a 2012-2013 forecast to come. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 1:06pm
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wow--hopefully no Cincy St.administrators watch our Council sessions.
If they do, can you imagine their thinking after last night's fiasco?
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 2:53pm
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
spiderjohn wrote:Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 3:26pm
| Spider - maybe for the next protest in Middletown we should all wear togas and bring violins!!! lol |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 3:30pm
| LMAO - respect your opinion on this matter but what you're advocating is exactly what Mayor Mulligan advocated for dissenters in our city. I've stated it before that Middletown cannot stand to lose any more population. The "my way or the highway" approach to city government is, IMO, wrong. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 4:01pm
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This is a copy of the plans on Main Street once Cincinnati State gets settled in, maybe in 2013. Doesn't Larry Mulligan and Dan Picard comport themselves like other illustrious leaders....Dear Ferber perhaps? Does Cincinnati realize what baggage they are getting with Middletown and the welcome wagon before it sinks in. Buyer, you have been warned.
http://youtu.be/3AohA367VVk - http://youtu.be/3AohA367VVk
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 4:10pm
| acclaro - like the lady on the AARP commercial: Sign Me Up!!!! Toga, toga, TOGA, TOGA!!!!!! |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 6:54pm
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The meeting and the promise of Cincinnati State and its impact upon bars, restaurants, and gas pumps will be profound once they decide in about 5 years, what building they will move into. Main Street will be overwhelmed with many frats/ sororities. I betthey even establish a football program to use the field down by the old McKinley school. It all makes sense for the rainy day fund to slide from 25% to 15% to make certain this invaluable well tuned investment pays off.
If I am not mistkaen, I recall another time when the 'Otter" defense was effectively used, to divert attention. That was the ploy by Larry Mulligan and Dan Picard. Even the former Gov of Illinois used it almost to perfection. Yes, the meeting last night was right out of the playbook, its the 'Otter' defense. We've seen this movie before but who gets tired of it. Get ready for more of Otter as we approach 2012, and the city is all hands on deck for keeping the .25% tax in place. AJ Smith was blindsided by.....the 'Otter' defense!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA2EFi-C7ug - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA2EFi-C7ug
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 8:33pm
| Do you thaink that AJ has been put on "double secret probation"? |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 11:14pm
| spider, I don't know. I think it's a secret!!! |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 11:19pm
| Without question spider, without question. By Ms. G, Larry, Dan, and Mike. The problem is they don't have any authority to make him leave school, so they try to humiliate him each council session. Shhh....don't tell council, but we have put THEM on double secret probabtion as well. Good lord, what does Cincinnati State think of Middletown. Probably think its great, Greg Pratt flying around town with them in his nice white Lexus two seater, telling them they'll have free golfing at Weatherwax. But poor AJ, he's costing the city SOOOOOO Much $$$$$, all that security needed to guard LM around the clock, cruisers on standby awaiting his second draft beer. Shameful isn't it. |
Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Apr 07 2011 at 1:30am
| No-to answer your ? s.j They've wasted enough time already on this subject. |
Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Apr 07 2011 at 9:26pm
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Acclaro, why do you hope things in Middletown fail? You really want to defend the likes of AJ? You're wondering what Cincinnati State thinks of Middletown; I'm just hoping none of them have met you. ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 07 2011 at 9:47pm
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VOR- you need to comprehend your thoughts. I am personal friend sof several university Presidents, including President Todd at UK (retiring) and Dave Roselle, President at Delaware. I ran IBM's global donation (Foundation) program for higher education for 20 years. You express concerns that a coroner that is now President at Cincinnati State should fear meeting me? What a joke. I think I'll call him and ask he and his VP of Strategic Planning what's the deal in Middletown that makes it so attractive.
I hope they haven't bought into the misrepresentations of the wonders of Middletown, but I have an insider I know what's driving this 'mission' VOR. As for AJ Smith, I have not defended him. I guess you are another city troll. On the contrary, I said his actions are unconscionable and shameful. I also said the actions of Dan Picard and the hypocrisy of Larry Mulligan have been as shameful.
Now what do you do for Middletown VOR, other than recite the beginning phrase of Kennedy's mantra?
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 07 2011 at 9:56pm
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SidebarVOR. I did not pick up your other point. You are a clone of the Larry Mulligan leadership. Get the hell out of Middletown if you don't like it right? I'd love to. This city is ritten to the core with its leadership and floudering. People like you defending it and its direction, or lack thereof.
Really a studpid comment to make. I want Cincinnati State or anything to fail? What a moronic statement. No, Id rather everything the city touches to be golden, so my uality of life and my investment in property would be as high as any city in Ohio, than being flushed down the drain. There is nothing this city has done in the 23 years + I have been back, that remotely has resembled success. When your hospital, 100 year largest employeer's executive office, and countless companies leave town, its for a reason. The reason is called FAILURE VOR, CHRONIC FAILURE. By God, I'd have given anything to have seen some success. How do you explain the city diverting funds for 20 years from streets to salaries? What affect does that have on the city and SUCCESS? Forget it, you wouldn't understand. You've been brainwashed.
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 07 2011 at 10:45pm
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acclaro - that might be the only way to find out what's going on with the Cincy State deal. It would be nice to get a time frame as to when this might happen.
VOR - there really is no need for personal attacks here. Frankly, it wasn't even a very good one. You could have at least pointed to acclaro's horrible spelling and said that you hoped no one at Cincy State had read anything he'd written!!! Just trying to help...
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Posted By: Joe Citizen
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 1:00am
| I'm so happy to hear someone else pick up on the fund formerly known as the "rainy day fund" percent changes. I thought I was making things up in my head talking about it one day. That number changes like the stock market. If I recall it was 25% at one time we could not fall below or the state would come in and invade the finance department and put the directors head on a stake Sparticus style, and burn his awards in effogy. I'm sure that number will change again if the infrastructure measure gets legs. Take a page out of history FDR and the WPA. People workin and bridges and roads gettin fixed. |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 7:25am
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With many calling for a return to a dedicated funding of infrastructure, the question becomes HOW? Where in that city building do you cut? I know striking better contracts with police/fire would help but we know the wimpering dogs on the 4th floor can't do that as they might pee down their leg in a battle. So where else does the $$ come from? I'm guessing there isn't TOO much bloat as far as city staff, unlike the old days when you had a city manager, then assitant city manager and probably 2-3 secretaries, few of whom were doing much of anything. Is the answer selling assets, like the golf course? Fine...but who will buy it ? Is the answer privatizing departments? Not a peep about that , even from our resident Adam Smith or John Locke on council. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 8:03am
| Bill - you have an excellent point on the how. Whether passed by council thru legislation or by referendum, it still would need to be implemented and 1/5 of the income tax revenues going to this will affect other services. I don't see selling assets and I'm opposed to privatization of government services because companies should not be profiting from taxpayer funds. If there is any bloat in city staff it will be used to keep police and fire (I hope). |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 9:35am
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TonyB, you commmentary on spelling may have been in jest, but if not, as this is aboyt my 10th response (and I never kae it a pt to reference inaccuracies in other spelling as its quite apparnt when one doesn't use a spelcheck and is typing away at 90 wpm, the hands most times, are faster than the keyboard). My focus is more on the message and opinion, not the keyboard, or using a spell check which I actually have excellent skills, so I do apologize for my rapid fire strokes. If that offends or you think the pselling is a distraction, well my friend, sorry, but I will not waste time proff-reading, do tyoe nearly 95 wpm, and I never make a pt to infer errors made by speed done by others, including sj and others. I also use a small Blackberry, so that's the deal.
As for the infrastructure funds, I hope you and Bill are also joking about that position. You both can't be serious? Its is more important to not have your funds dedicated to road repair than having someone getting a salary---you have to be kidding? You two must not hear much about Middletown from others and what it has done to further decline property values. You could easily take at least another 30% of out dowtown Middletown staff and not miss a beat. But to say openly you'd rather have a salary paid than asphalt on a road, that was intended in 1986 to be a short fix, perhaps 3-4 years in contrast to 25 years, that's unconscionable and a detriment to those that have not seen asphalt repairs on their street in 25 years or greater. It brings property values down drastically and reflects a devoid of pride by the city that harms Middletown far more than you apparently realize.
Well,you two have you choice, one assumes you both are petitioning the city and neighbors to pay for your own street repairs right? In the future, I will pull back my typing speed to 45 wpm TonyB. As my father was an English teacger, I was taight at age 5 to never use a preposition at the end of a sentence and I assuredly can spell (LOL).
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 9:40am
| TonyB- out of curiousity, what do you perceive the function of a city government to be if you don't agree with selling assets? A city is supposed to be in the hosuing business, run 36 hole golf courses, and aurports? I don't think so, A city protects, provides basic services, and does so at the most economical rate possibile. How these assets fall into that arena I disagree, So by your thinking, its more important to maintain te greens at Weatherwax and its asphalt, thanour streets? I see why we have many problems in Middletown. |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 10:08am
| acclaro, I would be happy to lop off heads if their was "fat" in the city building. I'm guessing at this point that any significant cutting would involve essentially getting rid of whole departments -- HR? IT? the Health Dept? the Water Dept? So the answer then becomes either looking at privatization or merging services with Butler County. And I think we should look at that. But any cutting that is not significant, e.g. laying off a few secretaries, may result in enough road improvement funding to repave a street the size of Walton Court and that ain't gonna cut it. So what's the answer? Everyone talks about reinstituting this road fund as if there is a pot of $ out there but consdiering the low tax revenues compared to 1986 it would be like setting up a household emergency day fund by saving $1 a week. whoopee |
Posted By: Middletown29
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 10:13am
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The City could easily get out of the golf business through a number of options. Gilleland is afraid to take on the tough issues.
She punts on the big difficult decisions. |
Posted By: Jlaubach
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 10:27am
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TonyB,
I would like to touch on your point concerning profits. Profits serve a vital role in the market place. Profits create incentives for entrepreneurs to efficiently and effectively use scare resources(Land, Labor, Capital or Tax $). In addition, they also serve as signal to other producers that there are needs and desires for a certain product or service. In addition, competitive and unbiased bidding of certain services would give the taxpayers the most for their money. This is something that should be clamored for by taxpayers. Why? Because they get the most from the dollars they spend. However, when contrasting this with the situation that allows only one group to profit without fear of competition(monopoly), I would most certainly agree with your concern in regards to profits. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 10:32am
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Bill, TonyB......on the subject of where to cut in city government....
I would be willing to bet that one could examine the entire hierarchy of the city building, reviewing each department and each position within that department, and find some duplication of effort, find some situations where there is glorified "paper-pushers" up and down the line and people retained where the position could be eliminated and the job incorporated into someone else's job who remained on the payroll. An example: When I was a participant on Billy Becker's street repair committee several years ago, Ginger Smith (now retired by force) was the Director of Public Works. We received a handout of the hierarchy of the Public Works Department. I saw first hand, the positions within this department. It had eight people. A Director (G. Smith) An Assistant Manager A Supervisor A Team Leader That's your management people Three operators One admin. The workers Now, you tell me why any department needs four management positions to monitor the activities of three workers plus an admin.? Waste- big time! 
There's an example of money- savings- cut three of the four management positions saving on salaries and benefit/retirement costs and have the remaining manager a working manager at that. When I questioned Smith about this structure and suggested eliminating several management positions for cost savings, Gilleland, who was sitting two people away, had this "incredulous" look on her face, Smith, the Director got all defensive, Marconi,sitting across the room from me had this grinning "cat that ate the canary look" on his face, Becker had this look of anger that I would even mention such a thing, and I was in my glory  , that I had pissed most of them off. How dare I suggest that they downsize their little kingdom at the mention of a mere unimportant citizen.  Dam I loved irritating them!
I would imagine this same scenario could be played out in most every department in the city building. Bet any of us could go in and find many instances of waste and places to cut people from the city payroll. Hell, you could fire half of the Directors for incompetence right now including the Law Director and the Planning Director. Should have fired the Econ. Dev. Director but he beat us to the punch by quitting.
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 10:36am
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acclaro - of course it was in jest!!! Personal attacks are just not necessary here so I thought I'd offer an absurd example!!! If you check my posts, they are full of spelling erors, gramatical, punctuation; and besides. lmao!!! I have a hard enough time just typing: I have no room to criticize anyone.
I don't like the idea of disposing of public property. I also don't think that the government should have much of it either. The golf course is a recreation asset like parks and since it is a revenue producer (or should be), it can provide revenues that can maintain other park and recreational assets that don't produce revenue. I agree completely that the city shouldn't be in the real estate business and that there should be some kind of mechanism to return real estate to private ownership. The airport I see like the golf course; a revenue producer that can be used to provide other services. These things diversify the revenue stream so that taxes aren't the only means to provide government services. I've mentioned before that it doesn't make much sense to have great parks and crummy roads. That's what priorities are about but when you have assets, they have to be used to get the best return on investment. Elected officials owe that to the public.
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 10:50am
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Mr. Laubach thank you for your post .
I wholeheartedly agree that profit is the point of private enterprise. Without it, our economic system does not function. This works very well in the private sector.
The public sector is different. The idea is not profit, but service. It is a different dynamic because everyone is a shareholder. The services provided are unique in the sense that they are controlled by elected officials. Yes, you can always bid out services but you lose control once the contract is signed. I agree that return on investment is the goal in public services but a private company will not do a job that they cannot make a profit from. If a private company can do it for less, why can't the public sector. The very fact that you're not figuring a profit into the equation should provide cost savings. IMO, this is where governments are looking for a quick fix instead of solving the real problem and that is providing services with public money in the most efficient and effective manner possible. It is the public officials duty to do that, not pass the responsibility to the private sector.
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Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 11:00am
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Tony, the golf course has been losing $ for several years now and I see no reason to think it will change. Sell it and the city will make a little $ as well as being free from the burden of future losses.
I think your point about "why can't the public sector do it for less" is pollyannish. There is no chance that the entrenched lifers that are city management are capable of running a tight ship -- and this is true for just about every government level in the country. There is no culture, no stomach, no desire, no will, and no training for government senior or middle management to all of a sudden get MBA training or take some Six Sigma or ISO training and start cutting all the fat at city hall, requiring more work for less pay, and in general whipping One Donham Plaza into an efficient machine that would be the envy of Fortune 500 companies. Ain't gonna happen.
So the only answer is consolidation of services or privatization. The latter could be accomplished with proper investigation of the vendors, discussions with other cities who have done it, heck even paying a consultant a reasonable one-time fee to facilitate it. You either have very favorable out clauses in the contract or you start out with a short contract, maybe a year, to cover yourself and go from there.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 11:31am
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TonyB....
"Yes, you can always bid out services but you lose control once the contract is signed" Not ncecessarily. Actually the city just demonstrated that you can get rid of a poor performer (CONSOC with the Section 8 program) and replace it with another private company who may do a better job and possibly for less money. "The public sector is different. The idea is not profit, but service" Just because the public service is in the business of providing a service rather than making a profit, doesn't mean that they shouldn't require operating at the best value for the dollar. IMO, whether private or public, especially in these tough economic times, the city should be constantly shopping for the best deal for the money. The city is also suppose to be in the business of providing the taxpayer the best return for the dollar on all services provided or contracted out but sometimes they fail miserably in this category. Oh, by the way TonyB, Bill is correct about the golf course. The city has been plowing $200,000 in it each year to keep it operational for years. Don't think it turns a profit at all. Must keep it open for their buds, certainly not because it is an excellent value for the money. Bill is also correct in saying that the people occupying the city building don't care to operate in an economical way. I believe they are certainly capable of tightening the belt, Gilleland has said she is tightening the belt, but when you read in the help wanted ads that they are hiring an admin. assist. in the Public Works Department, it appears the city manager is about to see her nose grow a little longer. What they say and what they do are two different things most of the time. They have not been schooled in the art of bs very well. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 11:38am
| Vet - my contention is that elected officials should be the ones managing the services provided, not shopping them out. The very fact that the city had to take the time to find someone else when if they were in charge it could have been handled more efficiently; indeed, it should never have happened in the first place!!! GOVERNMENT IS NOT BUSINESS!!! The best deal for the money; return on investment, is exactly why government should provide those services. That is the mandate of government and if they fail, you VOTE THEM OUT!!! |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 12:05pm
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TonyB-
"Vet - my contention is that elected officials should be the ones managing the services provided, not shopping them out". Not if the shopped out services can be done cheaper, more efficiently and a better deal for the taxpayer. Everyday here at work, working at Wright-Patt around government people as a DOD contractor, I see the horrific waste from within the government ranks. I would imagine, if they gave me a clipboard, gave me the authority and let me go around to monitor the day to day activities of all these government jobs, I could clear out half this base of inefficiency, duplicate paper-shuffling jobs, too many passing papers for signatures from desk to desk, etc. Typical government environment. Happens at the city level here in Middletown too. "The very fact that the city had to take the time to find someone else when if they were in charge it could have been handled more efficiently" Tony, Tony, Tony......think about the quality of the city leaders abilities in this town. From a commonsense standpoint, these same people who hired CONSOC in the first place, and replaced them later, are the same people who are screwing up this city. Did you actually think they wouldn't screw this decision up also? They rarely make the correct decision on anything. Commonsense is not on their agenda....ever. "The best deal for the money; return on investment, is exactly why government should provide those services" NO!!!!!!! The best deal for the money/return on investment is exactly why the government should STAY OUT OF providing those services. They are constantly screwing up a sure thing on anything they do!!!! The government is the WORST JUDGE OF VALUE because they live in a world where accountability of value does not exist. Hence the term GOVERNMENT WASTE. "That is the mandate of government and if they fail, you VOTE THEM OUT!!!" And replace them with ..........who? Another candidate that is just as bad or worse? That's the problem Tony, when we all go to the polls to replace the clowns we originally voted for, we find that in most cases, we have no real choices. Example: City council......We want to replace the clowns (aka The Four Horsemen of the Apocalyse)...Becker, Mulligan, Picard, Allen.....problem is, when we go to the polls, we see their names as incumbants running again and we also see .......no other name on the ballot to vote for change. The same old faces win by default as they have no competition or, the MMF'ers mount such a blitz at the polls for their candidate, the challenger doesn't have a prayer's chance in hell of overcoming the onslaught. Competent people with a commonsense agenda, with adequate funding, with enough people going to the polls to overcome the MMF candidate is the only way we will weed these MMF candidates out. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 12:06pm
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[
So the only answer is consolidation of services or privatization. The latter could be accomplished with proper investigation of the vendors, discussions with other cities who have done it, heck even paying a consultant a reasonable one-time fee to facilitate it. You either have very favorable out clauses in the contract or you start out with a short contract, maybe a year, to cover yourself and go from there.
Bill - thank you for your post. If your going to do all that work to find someone else to do the job, why shouldn't it be spent instead on making sure the city staff is accomplishing those need! You want...another consultant!!! Why don't we correct the problems that you identified above the quote? That, IMO, is what has to change. IMO, it is unethical for taxpayer funds to be used to profit private enterprise!!!
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 12:23pm
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As many issues seem to go round and round on the issues, with the same position and no action, I suppose that is the basics of a blog site. As Mr. Laubach reads the posts, or at made a reference to economics, I'd like to offer a few comments. To TonyB- thanks, I know my typing is fast, and occasionally done on a netbook many times with a small space between keys, I hope all will excuse my clumsy hands as they hit a key smaller than a dime. Mr. Laubach's point appears to be ROI is a measure associated with optimizing a return on expenditiure. While ROI does focus upon a return on capital out;, indeed, like current ratio, COPD, and virtually all financial ratios, with the exception of EPS, its function is both a profit measure and an operational or cost performance measure. The point he was making of course, was public sector business is not in the business to make MONEY ($$$), but to most efficiently use capital and maximize the return on capital, otherwise Cost Of Capital Deployed, and how effectively it is used in a ratio. First Point: I can go directly to the balance sheet of the city of Middletown Mr. Laugbach, I and I can tell you the water department is RUN as a PROFIT CENTER, not a cost center, if a rate of return the envy of a private corporation> 10% after tax. That is not running a city as a service nor efficiently, but setting up citizens to be exploited by profit. Now, to the golf course, Hook Field, the other assets the city maintains. No city should be in the business of running airports, golf courses, and building maintenance. That is NOT a core competency and what their function to be. Its quite simple: they pick up trash, provide water directly or indirectly, and protect citizens, through fire and police professionals. Its that simple isn''t it? Bill, so we need some Six Sigma Black Belts to re-engineer the city? No problem, I'll call a partner I know at PWC, and he'll donate about 4 weeks of time pro bono to do a gap analysis on where the cuts can be made. They are numerous. And, i won't cost the city a penny. What a deal right? TonyB, we can't outsource, we need that management? If so, why do we have Runke picking up trash, that seems to work fine? The savings on pension alone adequately compensates for using outside contractors. In fact, the federal DoD uses contractors to the tune of nearly 90% to staff everything from secretaries, to PHD's in network engineering, to some of the top logistic/ supply chain experts in the world. Why would that not work in Middletown? Hardly more complex than a global logistics distribution for the Air Force is it. Middletown suffers scope creep in its public business, the same mess we are involved in Lybia. What started out to take a day or two in Lybiahad cost $.5 Bb, growing daily, and a key driver with gas hitting $3.80/ gal with no end game in sight. The same with the city. It doesn't know what its function to be. It is not running golf courses, not running airports, not running water supply, although it is the cash cow of the city, and run for a profit TonyB and Mr. Lambaugh, nor being a property management entity. No, Middletown's 'problems are it has been on scope creep too long, and doesn't know what its real function to be, which is the root of its problems. Finally, I don't give a damn if the city has to dip into the once sacred rainy day reserve once set at 25%, now down to 15% to pay for salaries, to bring it down to 5%. Put the dedicated funds and $ mm into maintaining the roads and infrastructure, the most basic of fundamental responsibilities of this city. I don't care of you sell Weatherwax, sell the airport, wipe out 75% of the workers, but maintain the streets, as you are ruining our investment in our properties by investing in areas outside the core of any city's dudty or business while neglecting the fundamental rights citizens have, and that is to have adequate roads maintained with taxpayer funds. Even Adam Smith and The Wealth of Nations Mr. Lambaugh, does have reference to running a city. Its quite simple. Maximize the services provides by the least amount of money. The water department does not meet that standard, and the examples of outsourcing it readily abundant in the city already---Rumke, Superior Asphalt, attorneys acting as ED's, to name a few of many. TonyB- if we vote THEM out, who is voted in? The depth of candidates has been a void for many, many years.. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 12:50pm
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With sincerest apologies Mr. Laubach, I'm using an iPod Touch at the airport. To summarize: 1) Middletown needs to focus on what a city's function to be, and get out immediately of what its responsibilities not to be. 2) Cost containment- yes, outsourcing and using 3rd party contractors who specialize in areas is prudent and a driver of cost avoidance and containment. It works well at the federal level, and would work in MIddletown. 3) SR5 should help the city, if it wants help. 4) Put the road funds up for a vote, it will carry by 75%. 5) Apply your reasoning on efficiently Mr. Laubach, including water supply, and note an influx of people coming into Middletown than wanting to leave. That is the definition of efficiently, and what the city owes its constituents. 6) Or, wait in time, for the state to take over the city on the course it is one by 2014 and beyond. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 1:09pm
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Vet - I now believe we are getting to the heart of the matter. What do you want from government. More important still, based on these arguments, do you even want a government! I said it in council on Tuesday; if you think government is the problem, perhaps it's not the government you believe it is. IMO, government is inefficient when it tries to do things beyond its mandate.
Vet, you should have finished the quote because I also said that the city should never have allowed this to happen in the first place. How efficient was it to hire someone who screwed it up this bad AND MADE A PROFIT OFF OF TAXPAYER!!! All we could do is fire them and hope we get someone who will do a better job? Why not FIX THE PROBLEM instead of shifting the responsibility to the private sector whose motives are different and at odds with the very purpose of those services.
IMO, fixing the problem should involve good, old fashioned, common sense. If something stops working, it has become too complicated. Simplify, Simplify, Simplify. Read some of my other posts. Government at all levels need to step up and what they are mandated to do. Let private enterprise supply us with a life of comfort and ease and let our government provide us with life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In America, that is the mandate of government.
acclaro - an interesting point. Why did a government service become a public service? Because garbage went from a nuisance (hence the name), to a comodity. This is an instance where a profit opportunity turned a public service into a private enterprise. And what are we managing that needs that much expertize? The pension issue is a clusterf***, IMO, but also an excuse to shuffle away governments' mandated responsibility, and in the DoD, that's "provide for the common defense". IMO, the worst thing that has happened to our common defense is having private contractors supply logistics to our military.They decide to do what's "profitable" instead of what's right...
Speaking of Libya, what happened to the idea of overwhelming force? Did we throw away that doctrine? IMO, war is a crime. since we have decided to do that, wouldn't it be more in the interest of the Libyan people to just take Khaddafi out? Why do we insist on the "military action" instead of war, which is what it is? Khaddafi came to power when I was 10 yrs old and the joke in school was that when he got a briefing from his Army, he had to salute them because they were generals and he was just a colonel. He doesn't even have a government position!!! I've heard all my life that this guy is crazy, and now all the sudden, it's like a revelation that just fell from the sky!!! ridiculous!!!
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 1:49pm
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The pick up weekly of waste (garbage) is a commodity, and so is water supply, road maintenance, sewer systems, and police and fire protection. It is a benefit all are entitled that live in a community, a state, a nation (unless a 3rd World country like Haiti).
To argue it is better or more efficient for a public entity to provide these commodities is untrue.In fact Tony, the city of Middletown outsources its services to the city of Libert Township and a few others for tax collection. Comapnies use oustource providers who use best practices from Proctor and gamble to GE, for every function encompassing HR, IT, Finance, to some portion of sales and marketing. What makes the public sector different? They don't do these a fraction of effectively as the private sector, who sees the wisdom of having non core functions turned over to Accenture, IBM EDS, Towers Perin, and others, as this is their core---they do it better.
The analogy of Lybia was simply to reinforce the issue that what starts as a few days execrcise or effort, can lead into significant costs and years of time and effort. That is what has been the problem in Middletown. They forgot their purpose, their mission statement, what is it a city does for its citizens. By doing so, theyventured OUT of what was good for their citizens to what was good for them, and completely lost the proper prioritization.
Should a city's thrust Tony be centered upon bringing in a GE, a Toyota, and Fortune 500 pharamaceutical company for tax revenue and tens of thousands of jobs, or another two year prep school? That is the point. The city has lost its path, its charter, what is is supposed to do. To avid maintaining roads and infrastructures for 25 years as Middletown has, is unlike any city I am aware in Ohio, in the nation. That's the reference to scope creep.
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 2:32pm
| acclaro - I think you actually make my point about garbage. The pick-up of garbage was a government function for many years because there was no value to garbage; that's why they called it garbage!!! When refuse became something that had value, it stopped being "garbage" and became "waste". Notice that the company is not called "Garbage Management" , it's called "Waste Management". Your example about the city and Liberty Township; they are both government entities. One is not a private, for-profit company. The sharing of responsibilities between local government entities is a good way to efficiently use taxpayer resources. My contention is, and will remain, that if a private company can provide the service for less and make a profit, a government should (assuption) be able to provide that service for less BECAUSE there is no profit motive involved. Your example above is private businesses contracting other private businesses to provide services or products is because it makes that business PROFITABLE! That's the purpose of business. The "profit" of government services are that they can are enjoyed by all. That includes the private sector. |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 3:07pm
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Tony, not sure what point you are making...but I'm afraid it's a bizarre one. So to compare apples to apples, you're saying a well-run private company that handles..let's say trash pickup...that is profitable and has talented, educated leadership making anywhere from $200k-300k annually does not have a competitive advantage over a municipality with a middling department head (who probably used to work in an altogther different department of the city) making $80k ? That the performance and efficiency of these two groups should be the same?
Profit is the ultimate ignitor -- the firestarter that gets the juices flowing and the minds churning. Its is what spurs the hiring of smarter people and people who don't mind cutting the fat. It makes people work faster, quicker, and makes management get rid of the dead weight. I don't think that same motivation and drive would be found in any municipality.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 3:09pm
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TonyB...."The pick-up of garbage was a government function for many years because there was no value to garbage".......
The city got rid of the task of garbage pick-up by city workers because of the cost. The city was paying for the garbage trucks, gas and the maintenance of an aging fleet, the driver's salary/bennies, the salaries/bennies of the guys that rode on both sides of the truck actually carrying the cans to the truck and back to the curb. (They went to one guy on the back of the truck doing both sides of the road for cost savings, then the driver only ala Rumpke of today before contracting it out to Rumpke and disposing of the trucks altogether. The city also had the cost to maintain the city dump located where LaRosas, White Castle, Odd Lots and the former Damons/ Schiavone's "Junction" restaurant stands today. "My contention is, and will remain, that if a private company can provide the service for less and make a profit, a government should (assuption) be able to provide that service for less BECAUSE there is no profit motive involved". IMO, it is not necessarily so that the government can do it cheaper. The cost to provide that service may be higher because of salaries, layers of beauracracy, in-efficiency of operation and other issues related to cheaper operation. Private industry wants to do it faster, cheaper and more efficient because if they don't, it cuts into the profit margin. Public entities don't operate with the profit motive and their urgency to get it done isn't as great. JMO |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 4:26pm
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I don’t have the time to jump into this fray with both feet right now, but let me make one key point using garbage as an example. Please recall the economy of scale!!! A city collects and disposes of garbage only for that one city. Firms such as Rumpke or Waste Management collect and dispose of garbage for several cities in an area, thereby allowing more optimal usage of all equipment and manpower (and other resources). This allows the same, or even better, services to be provided at a lower unit cost even while making a profit. Similar situation with bussing, etc. That is why street maintenance can be done cheaper, yet better, by private contractors than city employees, yet City of Middletown is getting back into street maintainance, where they have failed in the past.------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 4:33pm
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TonyB, I have attempted to get this thread focused upon hw Middletown could save money, and the point Josh Laubach made regarding his view a city focuses upon cost containment and efficient operations in Middletown, when I indicated in water services, a few others, it is an actual profit center, it makes money (although it retains its non profit tax exempt status.
I am afraid I agree with Bill; I have completely lost your analogy on waste and commodity. A commodity can be any number of things, an item for stock purchase, a description of an item that has no brand identity and perecived differentiation; ergo, a roll of toilet paper, a paer towel, a piece of paper. So, I am completely lost by your analogy on commodity associated with garbage.
My point anything that a public sector services is a commodity, because it is not perceived as a brand. We don't pay outside the police service, for private forces to guard us do we? Of cousre not, it is a service provided, a commodity, that we view our police department no different than any other in the state---its a commodity. You are losing me again on the profit argument. On the contrary, there is economic value to recycling garbage and waste. I have every night before trash, truckloads sorting through my throaways for metal that can be sold, or other metal products.
You are missing the point, and respectfuly, don't seem to know how outsouricng works in either the private or public sector. It doesn't cost the private secvtor MORE to outsource a function, and usually, the costs are less. Service Level Agreements are put in place, and bonuses made by exceeding the baseline performance of the current staff before outsourcing. They also implement shared risk, where the outsourcer may even loose momney, based upon performance or non improvement. So, there are shared risk financial models, joint ventures, and many creative partnerships where best practices are implemented, which benefit BOTH the company or munibipality, and also the company providing the service. I guarantee in Middletown, across the board where this could be done, we'll leave fire 9other than volunteer augmentation) and police out of the debate.
The same holds yrue with creation of competition between the public sector school system and giving the tax payer the choice to use it for private education, such as parochial. The parochial schools blow the public schools away in performance at .25% of the cost. Of course, the school unions hate this, but the above illustrates how costs could be reduced, performance improved, and motivation affects performance.
By the way, corn is a COMMODITY that is going through the roof, too much ethanol, too much demand globally, adding to a monthly average of 4% of GDP ergo inflation.
You lost me quickly TonyB. No disrepsect, but this is what happens with some of our council members running for office. They start well, and then just totally lose the concept they are attempting to get across to the voter. I can handle Rumke picking up my trash, I could handle Accenture or KPMG outsouicng every function performed by Middletown employees starting Monday morning at 8 am,
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 4:38pm
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The best cases for “regionalization” would be if, for example, all cities, villages, townships, etc., in a region would standardize their street paving, sub-base, sewer specifications. They then could all do away with their street and utility departments and use outside contractors for all of this type of work. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 5:32pm
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Consider the following: Four cities in close proximity. One of 50,000 people; one of 20,000; and two of 12,000 each. One needs 5 operating ambulances and two spares; one needs 2 operating ambulances and one spare; and two need 1 operating ambulance and one spare each That is a total of 9 operating ambulances and 5 spares. If they could agree on a “standard” ambulance perhaps they could get by with 9 operating ambulances and only 3 spares--a savings of 2 spares. By re-supplying the ambulances from a common stock of supplies, they likely could all benefit from a lower cost of consumables (bandages, IVs, etc.) Could such an arrangement work for, say the cities of Middletown, Monroe, Franklin, and Trenton??? I don’t know, and perhaps ambulances is a poor example, but you get my drift, and if the same company was also supplying police cars, snow plows and other vehicles and providing routine maintenance… ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 5:52pm
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I guess I'm simply not able to communicate properly what I'm trying to get across here. And here I was thinking I'd explained my ideas well!!! Fooled myself evidently, lol. First of all, I don't think you can compare a government entity that provides a service with a private company.To Bill's analogy about a well-run private company vs a government operation; are you trying to say that educated, talented people are not to be found among government workers? As far as a competitive advantage, that's for private enterprise; government provides services that are non-competitive that are mandated to be provided by law. When there was no profit, there was no private enterprise to perform the service and that's why government's had to pick-up garbage; it wasn't profitable. When it became profitable to do so, that's when private enterprise came in and government did the right thing by letting the marketplace dictate the service.
Perhaps I am missing the point about outsourcing. I certainly understand the motivation of private corporations outsourcing certain functions, it's profit. Got that one (at least I think so). I do understand the idea of public /private partnership, what I've tried to communicate is that if it's being done by a private company for less, why wouldn't a city be able to do that since there is no profit margin to consider. Your point about shared risk is a good one; private business doesn't make a profit and they go out of business. If tomorrow there were no profit in waste collection, would Rumpke do it? No, because without that profit there is no motivation or reason to do it.. Perhaps it is pollyanna of me to think that government should be as motivated to provide the services mandated by charter or law. I honestly thought that was the job and the motivation was that you are providing a service to all citizens and since everyone's money is involved, the motivation would be there to do your best. I don't see that as little girl wishing; I see it as idealistic and striving for a more perfect union. What motivates a private company is profit, what motivates a government and it's workers should be duty and honor. What I read from all of these comments is that you disagree with that.
I don't have as much trust as most of you seem to have in private enterprise to supply government services.How many cases of fraud and mismanagement can we point to where private companies managed public services. If the citizens want a private police force, private fire fighting, provate company control over water, street repair, etc., why have a government at all. Let's just swear our allegiance to the corporate logo and forget any of that other stuff about liberty and justice. So long as a profit margin is maintained, all is well. Beginning to look like the world imagined in "Rollerball". (The original, not the remake! lol)
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 6:02pm
| Vet - I disagree that cities got rid of garbage collection because of cost. They got rid of it when it became profitable for private companies to provide the service. If there were no profit, cities would still be picking up trash regardless of the costs. If I'm not mistaken, private industry is always looking for ways to turn what was refuse in their operations into an opportunity to make a product and a profit. I think I read that early in the history of oil, gasoline was considered a "garbage" until someone found a use for it; then it became a profitable commodity. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 7:26pm
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Tony, there are still many major cities that pick up trash as part of their weekly duty and expense associated with city taxation. I could name many, but the point to be is quite simple: there are cities that do waste pickup and its included in the tax paid to the city. Other cities pay a 3rd party and reap some benefit, such as Middletown, in recycing, charging for the collection of payment and a surcharge which they add to the 3rd party provider.
Mike Presta's point is absolutely accurate why on many mundane and repetive chores and duties, it would servecities better to regionalize these. That's his point associated with economies of scale and scope. Why do you think hospitals, now turning back to the non profit private sector, share mri equipment? Its because it is cost prohibitive to have capital tied up in their occasional needs when the expense can be amortized through other hospitals, The same of course, through cities and regionalization, which is known as the concept of econcomics of scale. The greater the use amongst many, the lower the cost. Making this real easy, if I can get the same mower of lawns on Thursday to do my yard and 25 others, where he just has one stop to make, reserves gas, and is time, I can get a better rate per yard, maybe at $15.00, than $30.00, if he does 5, and one may want it done on Monday, another Tuesday, etc.
The biggest abuser or culprit in not making utilization of the laws of economy of scale and scope is the school system and districts. Can you imagine if we did have regional treasurer's, centralized bus maintenance, one PR person for the whole southwest region of Ohio, than one PR per district? That's driving costs down.
I see outsourcing to be an immensely effective tool for city hall. Will they use it? Maybe. They do pay 3rd parties to mow the grass. Is there a reason the water could not be purchased from another county, saving money, like Hamilton is doing? Of course not, but the city likes the profit center in public works. That's the problem, as Bill pointed out. There is no motivation to save money, or perform at a higher level. By having the private sector do it, there is.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 7:28pm
| OK, I'll name two:New York City collects trash with city workers, so does Cincinnati. Cincinnati is looking to outsource trash pick up as a cost saver Tony. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 8:18pm
| acclaro - I agree that if provides the service the public wants and either saves tax dollars or is beneficial financially, that's the way it should be done. I guess I'm living in the past thinking that gov. services should be provided by government. I'm a dinosaur; probably why I'll be extinct soon. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 8:51pm
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TonyB...."Vet - I disagree that cities got rid of garbage collection because of cost" Tony, it was easier and cheaper for the city of Middletown to get rid of their trucks, manpower, employee bennies, insurance premiums paid for vehicles/people, and give it to Rumpke.
acclaro post at 7:28PM... "Cincinnati is looking to outsource trash pick-up for cost reasons." Looks like acclaro found some info. that supports my statement above about city cost savings. Tony, despite all the flaws with the private sector, they still do a better job, faster and cheaper in almost any area of discussion than any level of government. Surely, you are aware of the many stories concerning how slowly and inefficiently and how expensive projects can be when the government has their hands in anything. I see it everyday while working around both government employees and the military. Neither offers a hint of efficiency in their thinking and in their execution of daily activities. As a taxpayer, you would be upset at the money wasted, the layers of paper shufflers on base, the multilayers of high salary people who's jobs are so concise, they actually only work 4 out of 8 hours as their day is normally not filled with activity for a full working day. You watch government people work after coming from private industry for many years and you just shake your head in disbelief at the expectation difference in the two worlds. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 9:22pm
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Vet - it might have been easier and cheaper for Middletown to give it to rumpke, my contention is that there would have been no Rumpke to give it to until it became profitable for a private company to provide the service. Once again, an instance where a government service was provided because no private company was interested in doing it until it could be made a profitable enterprise. Rumpke didn't exist until there was a profit to be made from the collection of refuse. Only then did there become a reason to turn over refuse collection to a private company.
My contention isn't about whether a private company is faster or cheaper. All of us are aware of cases of government malfeisance. We also have instances where private industry is guilty of fraud, inefficiency and cost overruns while fulfilling a government contract. I have a problem about governments shirking the responsibility of providing mandated services. As a taxpayer, I AM UPSET AT THE MONEY WASTED!!! Wasted by government employees, wasted by private contractors, wasted period!!! I said before that wrong is wrong; waste is waste; doesn't matter the source. IMO, the difference is that in private industry the goal is to make a profit. I just don't believe that is the motivation behind government services and that it is a conflict of interest to ask private industry to fulfill governments' role when the goals of each are not compatible.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 9:45pm
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TonyB, I apologize, but I continue to miss your point. I tried to keep the post on the need for Middletown to focus on cuttingcosts, running at the highest level of effectivenss, but we continue to debate profit motives vs service motives. I don't see your point. Lets use another example. Southwest Airline can fly you anywhere in the United States safely and cheaply, than you can pull out the car you own, fill it up, and drive to pt A to B (assuming you are traveling at least a 2-3 hr flight. Southwest Airlines makes a profit by running highly efficent, by operating only Boeing 737's, so their mechanics can keep parts low and their mechanics know one airliner---the 737. They also fly pt to pt, not through hubs, and avoid the high cost tariff air ports. So, are you saying its wrong or studpid to fly Southwest, because they also are in the business to make money?
Applying the Southwest Airlines model, we have any number of excellent businesses that can do exactly what city employees do, better, faster, and without the added burden of pensions and all the collective bargaining mess. So what's the issue: its better to give a job to a city worker than a private company, who hires the same profile of worker. Using my example about Cincinnati picking up trash, the company that will outsource trash pickup will hire those same city workers, but they will be on the private companies payroll. The former city workers were estatic! I fail to understand your point to be made.
Now, lets turn again, to the fact public sector units do indeed, make profit, and operate as a profit center. I gave you an example you can check yourself, but going to the city website and evaluating their financial numbers. Its called the City of Middletown Water Department! They are a profit center, they don't pass their costs to citizens at their cost only, but they mark it up, and run at a marginal basis > than 10%. It indeed is a Profit Center and they make a profit,
If you look at 675 around Wright Patterson Air Force base, you'll see signs for CSC, ACS, Battelle, SAIC, and many others.. Why is that? Because Wright Pat poutsources thousandsof jobs for 15 year intervals to contractors and subcontractors with many jobs decalred top secret. Why on earth would Middletown not be able to support an outsourcing model? I don't get it.
It would save hundreds of thousands of dollars. My gosh, they should have Computer Now outsource their entire computer operations, or Cap Gemini Sogeti. They are not running efficiently, nor saving money. The private sector makes money by runing and opgtimzing efficency. They are notivated to do so; city hall is not. Its really no more complicated than that.
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Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 9:53pm
| I guess we' re not talking about A.J anymore. Duty and honor? We don't trust local government to do the right job but we should trust them to followup on subs. Just a question, but have you run this duty and honor thing by any of the employees of the city, like the folks picking up all the ice storm damage or the ones fixing a water main break in Dec. at 3 in the morning. I already know, they signed up for this type of work. Trust me these folks are scracthing their heads as much as we are about the direction this town is going in. And I would guess they aren't very happy being lumped into the union debate when fire and police get most of the spot light. Ran into a city worker looking at a apron that was poured last fall. Didn't have a inspector on hand to followup on the sub who poured the crete over the owners water shut off valve may not have records to show but we will still have to pay to have it torn out and replaced. Complicated subject, and don't think that all these "other " cities don't have these problems. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 10:02pm
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acclaro - my friend, I believe we are getting somewhere here. If there are businesses that can do exactly what city employees do, why do we have city employees? It's the mandate thing here, IMO. Once again, why have a government if we can just have a corporation do it?
I've seen your posts about our Water Department. I agree, it is being run like a business instead of a government service. That is something that our elected leaders need to be looking into. IMO, that service should not be run for profit. That should mean a reduction in rates and that is just my point. Run as a profit center, a government service no longer becomes service, it becomes a business and as I stated before; I just don't believe the goals of for profit business and government are compatible. I'm not against saving hundreds of thousands of dollars, my contention is that government can be run efficiently by using the private sector as a model but without the profit motive. If I'm reading your comments correctly, it seems that you are also against running the water department as a for profit business because it does not provide real value to the citizens of Middletown. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Why can't government optimize efficiency? In the end, that should be city halls ONLY motivation!
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 10:08pm
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GS, I had several large trees all over my property with the ice storm, I took my chainsaw, cleaned everything myself. To my knowledge, the city didn't even have a truck go out to pick up cut wood and tied branches. I ended up spending a day getting in the form ol Rumke likes, no more than 4 Ft long, neatly tied, and not weighing more than 70 ibs.
I assume the workers who signed up for water break duty get paid overtime, I know my relative in Warren Cty did, and loved the time and a half, just like firemen, police, etc.
Can't say anything more about AJ. He won't be recalled, Anyone who wants to try, go for it. I don't have any idea what the deal is on his campagn funding, and if he'll get that turned in in a month. If not, he's got $43,000. staring him in the pocket book.
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 10:14pm
| acclaro - I agree that AJ will not be recalled. Many of you on here have me convinced that MMF (whichever one that is) will sweep their candidates into office in the fall. Don't see a coherent plan or a coordinated effort that will change that; IMO. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 09 2011 at 12:57pm
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Tony, I think we should focus our cumulative efforts n what we can control in Middletown. What I see we can control immediately, is the outcome of the next election in november. Using your term, we vote out the Allen's, Mulligan's, others, that do nothing to advance the fundamentals which are associated with running Middletown. in my opinion, that includes ASJ, as no one, with the exception of Josh laubach has even acknowledged the fact for 25 years, Middletown has not made an effort to put on the ballot, the previous MANDATE to put funds that cannot be ysed for payroll or pet projects, and used to pave roads for citizens. They also need to focus on core functions of running a city, and that is accomplished initially by starving them---get that tax back to 1.5%. We have no hope that I am aware, of credible candidates being able to run against anyone sponsored by MMF. Not that we don't have bright candidates or citizens, we do, they just don't have the luxury of walking across the street like Allen does, or Mulligan and others, that get elected.
I agree that a city's main function is to supply the absolute best possible service at the most economical price point. I don't mind if profit is made in one area, as long as it is still the most economical price in the area, they do it efficiently, and they use those profits to provide citizens with even more services.
The fact is, in Middletown, water is te cash cow, and by no means, do they use the profits to augment and provide other services. They inflate the citizen on water bills, having of course a monopoly, make a nice profit, which costs more than it should, and do not spread the profit into providing other services. You see Tony, that has been Middletown's strategy for several years now. To get levies passed, which lets hope and pray the voters will remember, they take services away as punishment. The city used to pick up leaves in the fall, but for 5-7 years, they stoped that, to use as a bargaining chip for the the 2.25% levy they attempted.
Now, by all evidence before us, they intend to not even make a feeble attempt at telling the citizens they aren't even going to pave roads a liitle each year. Rather, they offer this dumb plan citizens will pay to have their tax money used for over-inflated salaries for over inflated personnel, and the citiens will actually PAY to have the city pay to have that done. Can you believe that one Tony?
In fact, from what I recall, te city has budgeted, and perhaps city council already approved, about $600,000 in asphalt euipment and of course capital, thinking citizems would pay for a service they have been deprived since 1986, and to prepare for that, the city is ready to invest in the equipment to pay for the paving that cotizens will pay the city to do, abobe and beyond the taxation. When you sum it up, other than the great bargains outsiders can get by Middletown ruining home owner value, there isn't any economic value to be had in Middletown. Taxes aren't low, services are terrible, well...you get the point.
So, the only constructive initiative in 2011 is one agenda item: DEFEAT the tax of 1.75% and bring it back to 1.5%. Then. the other issues can be tackled such as how to replace MMF or have parity, with candidates that will actually win an election on council and work for constituents and not carrying water for the city. And indeed, ol H2O in Middletown, is a cash cow, and pretty sacred.
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 09 2011 at 1:37pm
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acclaro - Your last post is a fine description of the current state of affairs in our town. It will be of interest to me who on council proposes and endorses the public safety levy. I'm pretty sure that Mr. Laubach is not in favor of the renewal of this tax (although I could be wrong about that) so it will be telling if anyone amongst current council will tie their re-election to the passage of this.
Replacing MMF is something else to consider. Thanks to Mr. Presta and the info from previous threads, the city's economic development is tied to this non-profit. The issue there (as I see it) is whether Middletown Moving Forward has also engaged in electioneering which I would interpret (based on reading the law) as a conflict of interest and illegal. The persons associated with the CIC have one thing that cannot be discounted; deep pockets! Recent elections have proven that a campaign of disinformation and partial information is effective in deceiving voters. Overcoming that will prove a monumental task.
I do agree that if the water dept profits were used to fund other programs that it might be legit. If they actually identified what they were using those extra revenues for it would add some credibility. Universities use their football and basketball programs to pay for the rest of the athletic department which I see as a clever and smart use of resources. It's also very transparent because they tell us that is what they do. IMO, that is the litmus test for anyone who wants to run for council: a pledge to make city government more transparent. We can disagree on a number of issues that might determine support for a candidate but at the end of the day, I won't support anyone who can't make that pledge.
I also agree that citizens don't need to pay by assessment for what they have already paid for in taxes. Is it me or is FIX THE STREETS!!! too complicated a message to understand?
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 09 2011 at 1:46pm
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groundswat -thanks for your post. After much philosophical rhetoric (mostly from me) we did return to the subject of this thread. I'm not sure why the ideas of duty and honor need be run by any citizen of this city or this country for that matter. Those were ideas that I picked up in my youth that were taught in our public schools. I've mentioned before that I went to Monroe High School even though I lived in Middletown but that was when it was the combined district. Are the ideas of duty and honor no longer taught in Middletown City Schools? I don't have an answer to that; perhaps someone else does.
The rest of your post troubles me because it points to a lack of leadership and direction. I agree that trust in government is at an all-time low and where there is no trust there is animosity. That animosity has been directed at the employees of government and based on your post, they don't seem to have much trust in the leadership of their government. That trend needs to be reversed and quickly!
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 13 2011 at 7:08am
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Didn't see anything in the Journal about Mr. Smith's community meeting last night. Did anyone go and if so, how many were there and what was discussed. Hope Mr. Smith didn't go on a tangent about SB5 again.
When do you think Mr. Becker, Mr. Picard, Mr. Mulligan and Mr. Allen will have their "fireside chats" with us mere mortals? 
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Apr 13 2011 at 8:15am
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Vet - I attended last nights meeting and will attempt to give a full report. No, no SB5 talk. Most of the meeting was spent with residents concerned with the septic system inspections being done by the Health Dept in Ward 2. There was also questions about how recycling can be increased in the ward and overall in the city. Mr. Picard was there and talked to redidents about the street replacement legislation and concerns were raised about 18th St where residents had previously fixed the curb and gutters but the city never paved the street. There was also a concern raised about concrete work that has yet to be finished from the gas line work on Minnesota and Mr. Smith had been told that the work would be completed by May. A concern was raised about the CDBG money being used inefficiently and Mr. Picard said he would look into the matter. It should also be noted that Mr. Mulligan attended the meeting as well. If there was anyone else there who would like to expand on this summary, please feel free. There were at least 10 citizens in attendance and, IMO, it was an informative and productive meeting.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Apr 13 2011 at 12:01pm
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Mr. B., I would like to expand on one point. When I arrived (a few minutes late due to a previous commitment), the group was well into the discussion of the septic tank discussion. Before that was over, some residents seemed to want to blame Armco/AK Steel for the failure of their septic tanks as well as “secret tunnels” under Yankee Road many other problems. Mr. Picard stated that: “AK owns all of Dick’s Creek.” Since everyone seemed convinced of their “facts”, and I felt it fruitless to debate those issues, I kept my mouth shut. However, the truth of the matter is that Dick’s Creek rises in Warren County well east of any AK property. In fact, tributaries and upstream branches of Dick’s Creek run right by Atrium Medical Center and the Renaissance subdivision where Mr. Picard resides. Perhaps they are responsible for some of the pollution??? Mr. Picard, have you thrown any batteries or broken CFL light bulbs away in your back yard??? ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: A.J. Smith
Date Posted: Apr 13 2011 at 4:25pm
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Thank you to all that attended. The next District Dialogue will be on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 at the Robert "Sonny" Hill, Jr. Community Center from 6pm - 7:30pm. All are more than welcome to attend! |
Posted By: Richard Saunders
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 5:38am
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According to The Middletown Journal, AJ Smith is being paid to help repeal SB5. But he has been doing so in his official capacity as a Middletown City Councilman.
Isn't that illegal?
Will Mr. Landen, or either of the two attornies on City Council, report him to the proper authorities?
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 6:43am
Let's think this through...... Smith is a councilman, and has an obligation to represent his constituents in the 2nd Ward area. Mr. Smith is being paid by We Are Ohio, an anti-SB5 group gathering signatures to have the bill go up for a vote. He is also a field director for this group. Question: Is Smith, by ciding against this law, representing the majority of his constituent's wishes by doing this? What if most of the people in his ward are in favor of SB5? Is he on the correct side of the fence, or is he just doing what he wants to do in opposing the law? Shouldn't he be asking the people he represents and act accordingly? Isn't there something wrong with drawing a paycheck from the city as a councilman(taking a city stance) and drawing a paycheck, and working for a group that is trying to defeat a law that will hurt the city concerning negotiations? SB5 affects the operation of the city as it deals with city union workers and the city/union negotiations. Smith, as a councilman, also is involved in this process. He has taken sides on this matter by ciding with the union folks, and is making an attempt to repeal a law by having it placed on the ballot in order to defeat it. Is there a conflict of interest on his part between being involved as a councilman and representing the city's posture and, in his time away from council, lobbying for the defeat of a law that will protect the city he represents by creating a more level playing field? Seems to me he is working both sides of the street on this one. You can't be involved in representing the city and making decisions that will benefit/protect/provide a level playing field for the city and, at the same time, be involved in seeing a law defeated that will provide the city an even playing field in negotiations can you? Anyone see this differently? |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 8:10am
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Vet - I see this differently because there are dissenters in every legislative body. That isn't against the law. Council doesn't draw a "paycheck", they receive "compensation" for their time and all have other jobs. Is it a conflict of interest for the Mayor to be in the banking industry and also serve on the non-profit for economic development? As for the SB5 issue, many politicians support or oppose laws that their constituents do not agree with. Take the Lefferson Road project for example, the overwhelming majority of those people didn't agree with the ordinance yet their representative voted for it. When a representative no longer represents your interests, you vote them out. The rest of your argument about SB5 is opinion as to whether it creates a level playing field as opposed to the contention that it is taking rights away from workers. Smith has asked people and feels he's representing their interests. Once again, it's a matter of opinion and you simply can't dictate to a representative about their opinion. If you don't like their opinion, you vote them out. Other than that, all you can do is be an advocate for your opinion.
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Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 9:11am
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ARTICLE III, SECTION 18 - MIDDLETOWN CITY CHARTER No member of City Council or any other officer or employee of the City shall be interested in the profits or emoluments of any contract, job, work or service for the city. Any member who is, or may become interested in any contract , job, work or service for the City, shall forthwith forfeit his office. Any contract in which any member of City Council is or may become interested in any way whatsoever, may be declared void by City Council.
Paul Nagy
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 9:48am
| Evidently Mr.Smith made this effort at a meeting supposedly focused as a community forum with a councilmember. Possible thorny issue being that this meeting and organized sb5 effort happened in city-owned property(community center I believe), which may well fly against any non-partisan political activity conditions. So--what do we have here? |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 9:50am
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TonyB- never said it was against the law. I asked if it could be a conflict of interest for him to represent the city behind the desk and then go about the business of being paid to organize a movement to potentially put the city he represents at a disadvantage in negotiations.
Drawing a paycheck.....receiving compensation for a job......semantics. Bottom line.....they are paid for providing a service. Mulligan, as a bank official, is not lobbying to remove a law that will help the city in conducting its business either. Mulligan, as far as the public is aware, has not done anything outside of his job capacity as mayor and a councilmember, to place the city at a disadvantage as Mr. Smith appears to be doing at this time. That's right, the Lefferson Rd. people should try to throw their representative under the bus next election if that representative ignored the wishes of the majority of their constituents. Should happen on a routine basis. "If you don't like their opinion, you vote them out. Other than that, all you can do is be an advocate for your opinion". .....or, you can recall them before their term is up and elect someone who will do the bidding of the majority represented and not their own special agenda. Perhaps Mulligan should recuse himself from voting on econ. dev. matters involving bank transactions. Perhaps Mr. Smith should recuse himself involving union negotiations with the city. Looks like Paul Nagy found something pertaining to the City Charter. Based on this info. should Mr. Smith resign? |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 10:00am
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This one is really easy. Mr. Smith's work within the Dem party to get SB5 on the ballot, is really a paid lobbyist. His position if to support the Democratic objective, to win votes, and support the union, which gioves them boths. While not illegal, it is clearly a conflict of interest. As a consequence, he should have absolutely no vote on any issue pertaining to SB5 in the city of Middletown. I hope Mr. Landen reads these posts, or engageds legal acumen, as it will be a conflict of interest Smith must recuse himself from exercizing a "paid" vote. That in turn, would be an "illegal" activity. Really a blatant and irresponsible example of political cronysism and taking it a step further...he is paid to do this work and influence others, a serious ethical violation, a violation of city ordinance, and a violation of state and federal law.
The voters in the 2nd ward may or may not, in the majority, support SB5 or not. But, by being a paid advocate and "lobbyist", Smith has placed himself in a position he must not vote on any matters pertaining to SR5 and the city of Middletown while in office.
Perhaps he will default on getting his treasurer statement to Columbus, and all these messs with him will go away. He is irrelevant, but a nuisance. One person showed up to sign his petition, don't think that Dem group is getting their money's worth, nor is the city.
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Posted By: LMAO
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 10:22am
Its simple as this.A.J. thinks he can do as he damn well pleases.He is nobody IMO.Just a kid still having growing pains.Again A.J.resign and get the hell out of dodge.
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 10:31am
| acclaro - are you saying that Smith's vote on the recent city contracts with dispatchers was a conflict of interests? Is he lobbying the city government about SB5? Does that mean that anyone who supports an agenda of a political party and serves as a representative in government has a conflict of interests? Example of political cronyism? Violation of the law? Are you kidding me? According to Becker, this city violates the law on a regular and ongoing basis. Cite the ordinances Smith is in violation of and file a complaint; see how far that gets. |
Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 10:41am
| You people are forgetting one thing here HE IS THE LAW! |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 11:20am
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Tony, I believe I references I view Smith "irrelevant" so I will not be spending a minute of my time reporting any violation to the city, to the state, to the feds. It isn't required, council will see the clear conflict of interest. I realize from your mny posts, you support the union and government, that is your right and opinion, but you need to peel away facts from emotions.
Smith is a paid lbbyist for the Dems under the group that was named in the paper with the sole objective: eliminating SR5. Are you seriously suggesting Tony, that the city of Middletown is being served by a council member paid as a lobbyist, and clearly is doing so for a fee, that that to be no conflict of interest? You have to be kidding me. I have no doubt every city council member sees the benefit of having the tools needed to negotiate. When a council member is PAID to lobby for a position that does not serve the city's best interest, and those whom put him in office, it is a conflict of interest, and his voting capability on such issues should be a recusal.
If you can't figure that one out, I can't educate you on the ethics of being paid for a position. I am uncertain and assume council was not made aware he was a paid employee of the group who wants the union power to stand and SR5 to be reversed via vote. If so, he would have been asked to recuse himself on all votes dealing with union workers. If not, he and council, are violating law, and I am sure Les Landen will see this as a significant conflcit of interest. You cannot vote on an issue which you are being paid to also be an advocate. I think that's called a "conflict of interest", why judges are asked or on their own, recuse themselves, and other political figures. While Smith is irrelevant, ethics and being paid for a voting position always dictate recusal Tony, always.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 11:34am
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Wait a minute Tony..... You state
"Doesthat mean that anyone who supports an agenda of a political party and serves as a representative in government has a conflict of interests?" Actually, AS IT IS NOW, the agenda of the political party is to repeal a law that is on the books,giving the city some leverage in negotiations. Mr. Smith, as councilman, should be taking the city position in these negotiations. However, he has demonstrated that he wishes to take this special interest/union supported cause to repeal the current law and place the union back in the driver's seat at negotiation time. Basically, he is on both sides of the negotiation table and I would call that a conflict of interest in it's purist form. He cannot represent the city position as a councilperson and represent the people sitting on the other side of the table at the same time. JMO Mr. Nagy has already pointed out that he may be in violation of the city charter. Not so sure that his actions have violated any laws. Don't think it goes that far.....yet. |
Posted By: LMAO
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 12:50pm
Until someone puts there foot down A.J. is going to do what A.J. wants to do.Breaking laws,charters,or whatever doesnt mean a thing to the CHUMP.Yes A.J. I called you a chump.When you was born instead of smacking you on your butt the doctor needed to smack your mom for having such a disgrace as you are.
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Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 2:17pm
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acclaro - thanks for your post; the whole idea that our council could see any conflict of interest in their actions or in the actions of another provided a good laugh! Oh, wait a minute; that might be construed as an emotion which inhibits my rational thought process. Let me turn off that so I can reason properly. If what you have deduced from my many posts is that I support unions, you are mistaken. I support people, not organizations. Taking the rights of individuals to bargain collectively smacks of autocracy to me and I'm not a supporter of a dictatorship. No one MADE the city accept the current contracts. If they don't like them, perhaps they should hire a better negotiator or have a better bargaining position. Mr. Smith does not negotiate contracts for the city. Are you telling me that some on the current council aren't engaging in activities designed to groom candidates to support their agenda, that whole MMF group? Whether Smith's paid position compromises his ethics is best left to those in a position to know. The very inference that I somehow don't understand ethics and that I need to be "educated" smacks of condescension. Since you see me as someone so ethically challenged, explain Mr. Becker's comments and why he is still on council. As to my support for government, yes; I unequivocally support the Constitution of the United States of America!!! I also support the state of Ohio constitution and the city of Middletown charter. Are you telling me that you do not? Furthermore, this has nothing to do with allowing union power to stand. It is about stripping rights from workers. Did Mr. Smith vote against the recent contracts? Only one person voted against those contracts and stated his reason very clearly. Should Mr. Laubach have recused himself because he didn't agree? Are you telling me that dissent is now considered a criminal activity? Vet - if I'm not mistaken, the goal of the Republican Party is to repeal the health care law that is on the books; as well as many other laws concerning abortion, Social Security, Medicare, etc. Mr Smith does not negotiate city contracts. You seem to subscribe to the idea that there is only one side to this argument and that anyone who doesn't agree is either ethically challenged or just plain wrong. Mr. Nagy's quote of the city charter is irrelevant in this instance because Mr. Smith is not profiting from any action taken by the city as regards contract negotiations. Advocating the repeal of a law does not mean a conflict of interest. Now, I happen to agree that being paid by a political organization is not the proper "job" for an elected official because of the potential of being seen as a "paid for vote". I would encourage Mr. Smith to return any money earned from such job and to forego any paid political activity.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 3:44pm
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TonyB...you state
"Mr Smith does not negotiate city contracts". I was under the impression that city council does get involved in contract negotiations and has the final sayso in approval because it does affect the city budget and they are responsible for said budget. "Yu seem to subscribe to the idea that there is only one side to this argument and that anyone who doesn't agree is either ethically challenged or just plain wrong" That is correct. There is only one side. The one opposite the union stance. (Just kidding....it is still open for debate)
Mr Nagy's quote of the city charter is irrelevant in this instance because Mr. Smith is not profiting from any action taken by the city as regards contract negotiations" Ahh, but Smith is benefitting from this situation because he is now collecting a paycheck for ciding with and supporting action that can be detrimental to the city as to negotiations. Advocating the repeal of a law does not mean a conflict of interest" It does in this case because if the law is repealed and the city loses the level playing field in negotiations and Smith is also representing the city in an official capacity, IMO, he has a conflict of interest because he is playing both sides of the fence. |
Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 4:03pm
| Vet - SB5 does not level the playing field. The field was already level. The FACT that the city is terrible at negotiation is the true detriment. City council only approves negotiated deals and recommends the parameters of the deal; they do not negotiate the deals themselves. The hypothetical "can be", "could", "might", is just that; supposition. Mr Laubach opposed the recent contracts while the other 6 members of council thought the deals were in the best interest of the city. Did Mr. Laubach support a position that was at odds with what is best for the city? The real issue will be decided by voters on SB5 provided it even makes it to the ballot. There is no sense in putting the cart before the horse in this case. |
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 4:46pm
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Tonyb,
Lets look at the Charter a bit closer. "Emolument" is defined as "Profit from office, employment, or labor; fees or salary."
No member of City Council or any other officer or employee of the City shall be interested in the profits or emoluments of ANY contract, JOB , work or service for the City. Any member who is, or may become interested in ANY contract, job, work or service for the City, shall forthwith forfeit his office. ANY contract in which ANY member of City Council is or may become interested in Any Way WHATSOEVER, MAY BE DECLARED VOID BY CITY COUNCIL. (emohasis mine. pn)
Some observations:
If Mr. Smith is acting as a Council Member in his activites regarding SB5 where does he get the authority? If he isn't acting as a Council Member but as a paid proponent from some political organization and using his council community meetings in order to lobby, work etc. on a political matter why isn''t he violating this section and forfeited his office. Either way not all of his constituents agree with him on this matter. Further, it is not an issue of Council. It is an issue of Columbus and State government. Council's issue is with its budget and paying city employees a fair wage. Thats what Mr. Smith should be discussing. That is his work as a Council Member. He is indeed using his position in a contract matter regarding the city and is getting paid (emolument). This is "profit from office".
Paul Nagy
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 5:18pm
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In simplist term, Smith's actions are in violation of his office only when he casts votes associated with union workers and cuts. When that occurs, he should recuse himself, or Mr. Landen will do so for him in a formal request. Tony, this is really a no brainer. His role s council member is to act first and foremost, on what is best for the city and its constituents, not Barack Obama, the Democratic party, and certainly not SR5. Does he have a right to be paid by the group against SR5? Yes. Does he have a legal right to represent that organization, and agenda, and his vote be cast in parallel to that group? Of course not, an ethical violation, and a legal violation. When he recuses himself, he need to not worry. As long as he associates with the organization, is paid as such, he has no choice but to recuse himself.
So, its that easy, no more complication. A simple analogy would be an AK exec sitting on council and casting a vote for everything before council that benefits AK---it would not fly, and would be a clear conflict of interest. Nothing more needs to be stated.
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Posted By: John Beagle
Date Posted: May 11 2011 at 8:06pm
I think you're right on this. Smith should recuse himself from all negotiations with public city employees.
------------- http://www.johnbeagle.com/" rel="nofollow - John Beagle Middletown USA News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio. |