Issue 5-Collective Bargaining

From the Journal....

Local firefighter says proposed bill would knock him out of the middle class

MIDDLETOWN — Firefighter Mark Pelfrey said a proposed bill that would alter collective bargaining rights for public employees would essentially knock him and thousands of other public union employees out of the middle class.

“(Public employees) are struggling to stay in the middle class as it is,” Pelfrey said.

However, Middletown firefighter Jon Harvey, president of Local 336, said the bill threatens to take away the employee’s ability to negotiate.

Look, we in the private sector have a hard time agreeing with the public union stance. We are paying, out of our paycheck, approx. 21% of our benefits premiums with the employer picking up the rest. As I understand it, the public union worker is paying approx. 9% out of their paycheck for premiums. We are enchancing our 401K's to the tune of 5-10-15% out of our paychecks to "beef up" our retirement. Some private employers match that. How much do the public union people pay into their retirement? Anyone? We, in the private sector, have no one to negotiate across the table for us. When raise time comes, we are given a performance appraisal, and handed a little slip of paper that tells what % raise we will receive for the year, if any. In the 40+ years of working in the private sector, I have been given as little as a 0.5% raise to as much as 3% when company profits were good. What is the average raise negotiated each year by the unions? Bet it was never 0% or 0.5%. Hard for me, with my workplace experiences to agree with the unions. They seem to have been on the greedy side over the years. As for being left behind being middle-class......welcome to our world, union people. We started being left behind in the 70's as to wages keeping up with costs of living. You need to appreciate some of that gravy you have enjoyed all these years IMO. Your employer, the taxpayer who is providing your salary and bennies package, can't give anymore in taxes to afford your Escalades, your bass boat and your home in the upscale areas. Your towns, like Middletown, can no longer afford to spend 21 million out of 30 million on salary and bennies costs in their budgets. You have outpriced yourself and it has now caught up with your demands. There ain't no more money left to afford you as your demands over the years have outpaced city revenues. I'm a working middle-class person myself but even I know the money is not there for lavish pay....public or private sector.

You are correct Tony B......I am wrong when I say that there is no money for lavish pay in public/private sector jobs. I should have said that cash-strapped cities can no longer afford to deal money to lavish pay the way they did in the past when they all had adequate revenue. There are union folks who work "on the floor" who can afford Escalades, bass boats and live next door to company VP's in upscale neighborhoods. Seems to me that the pay is mis-aligned with responsibility. When a person who is responsible for his/her own little job on the floor is living the relative same lifestyle as the VP, responsible for a greater portion of the company operation, it would appear slightly out of kilter, wouldn't it? This same union floor person is certainly living at a higher level than most non-union shop workers, doing equivalent work in a non-union environment with no collective bargaining power. Heck, back in the 70's, I worked for a company in Columbus where the owners said they would shut the doors and no one would have a job, if the workers insisted on going union. That's about as close as I have come to being in a union all these years. Just think they have gotten too big for their britches with their demands over the years and now it has caught up with them. They are pricing themselves right out of the market of affordability.

TonyB- you state "the true strength of union membership should be about the quality and productiveness of the worker...." The thing that has worked against that statement is the Teacher's Union. They have this little thing called tenure and it has been noted that some teachers, NOT ALL, get their years in and "float" to retirement-usually early at 55 or so. Look at the Midd. school district performance overall. (proficiency tests- poor indicator numbers) Based on your statement about productiveness and quality, should MOST teachers (and admin.) in the Midd. system receive a raise? Probably not if the criteria is based on merit, quality and being productive. Yet, the school board keeps negotiating with the teachers union and admin. positions and still awards raises based on their demands. Time to get tough. Eliminate step increases, eliminate/reduce automatic raises if poor quality and productiveness has occured, go to the merit system and eliminate tenure which MAY foster slackers once obtained. Wonder if this same culture occurs in the fire, police and city worker unions? Perhaps.

My point about the VP-union worker comparison wasn't about how good the VP is on the job or being a good negotiator. It was to emphasize how the union wages have allowed some union members, who occupy "floor jobs" and not higher management positions, to increase their standard of living to the point where they are living at the same level as a position much higher and with much more responsibility than their job requires. How did private companies and public positions get to the point where the unions have negotiated regular, non-management floor positions to be on the same level as middle management? (Can't believe I'm on the side of management on this one- always disliked management in general) I just see the overall union mentality as being too greedy, to the point of bankrupting cities and employers (salaries make up 75% of the Middletown budget), especially in today's world where revenues are drying up, job creation is null and void, (especially in Middletown) and most people are cutting way back on what they spend, not knowing if they'll have a job tomorrow. Haven't heard what any union would be willing to give up from all these Issue 5 protesters. Would the police, fire personnel, city workers, teachers and admin. be willing to give up a few years of raises, pay more than 9% on the premiums for their benefits and pay into their retirements like those non-union workers are doing to save the city, employer and the taxpayer some money in these hard times? Don't know....they haven't talked.

TonyB- How do you evaluate teachers for merit? Percent of students taught by the teacher and % passing all proficiency testing. Have a qualified group of "class instruction auditors" who will evaluate in-class instruction for each teacher on an unannounced date. Evaluations will include content/preparation/accuracy of data, content delivery for effectiveness, class participation, interpersonal skills with the students, coordination of class activities, contributions to the school outside the classroom, etc. Auditors may include an assist. principal, a state level rep. qualified in classroom instruction, the principal, former retired teachers of distinction.....hey, I'm just throwing this out for a suggestion on how to evaluate teachers for merit increases rather than a blanket, negotiated increase with no evaluation or performance appraisal like we receive in private industry. The raise becomes too automatic with no verification of earning the raise when negotiated.

Police and fire.....how about the same concept with them. An outside auditor, coupled with input from local police and fire reps/management. They could demonstrate some of their on-the-job techniques for an evaluation team....something similar to an ISO audit like we have here at work. Periodic testing on job functions to ensure knowledge....ways to evaluate for merit raises. Got to be a better way than to just sit at a negotiation table and give blanket raises to everyone. The Teachers Union, Fire, Police and Public workers need to be evaluated individually and actually need to demonstrate job knowledge and contributions individually in order to receive a raise......again, just like we do in the private sector. You'll get your good people if job proficiency is demonstrated. JMO

I realize union people would never agree to any of this. Puts them on the spot and might expose weaknesses to gain raises.

Drastic, preposterous suggestions? Perhaps.....but what do we have now that would work?

You mention "we want good people in public service jobs but we don't want to give them wages and benefits that will retain them in these jobs"....actually, IMO, we give them as much, if not more in wages and bennies than most comparable jobs in the private sector. I see their salaries in print. In some cases, I believe that the wages have exceeded what was originally intended. I don't mind them having benefits. I object to them paying only 9% of their premiums as opposed to 15-20% for the private sector. There is a significant difference in wages between a non-union manufacturing floor position and a union manufacturing floor position. Has been for years. Non-union shops have always lagged far behind union shops in pay. A non-union job would pay $12/hour when a comparable union job would pay $25/hour. JMO

Vietvet,

ashkicker quote- "As far as merit increases, we already have a system in place to reward individuals that perform above the rest of the department, we call that the promotion process."

IMO, there is a difference between getting a promotion and receiving a merit increase. Receiving a raise happens when one meets or exceeds expectations with a higher raise going to the individual who exceeded expectations based on the importance of the accomplishments to the company. A promotion happens when a position opens up and there is still a need to fill that position. Sometimes one can continually outperform the rest of the department, but if there is no promotion openings, the high performer must be satisfied with the raise, transfer to another department that may offer a promotion opportunity or leave the company altogether for greener pastures. One does not always get promoted just because they continually receive high merit increases. Sometimes positions are not created just to promote someone. Might be done in your world of public employment but doesn't necessarily happen in corporate America.

A salary range for a firefighter? Let's see, you do some medical functions on your job...is your pay in line with a similar level in the medical field? Part of your job involves risk and is dangerous. Is your pay in line with the AK workers who work in a dangerous environment each shift? Part of your day is cleaning up your facilities, sleeping, cooking meals, going to the grocery, washing fire equipment, training, etc. Is your pay in line with people who do this type of work? OR- do you think that you are at the high end or have exceeded most of your counterparts in each of these categories? All total, I think you probably do well as to bennies and salary and are in the high end category for a non-management position, living better than most in the area who are not high rollers. My guess- $45,000 to $55,000. You asked- I responded ...it's JMO.

Viet-Vet,  How much more dangerous would that AK job be without union negotiations for safety? Involving workers in the decisions that affect their employment is a relatively new idea. Are you really advocating an end to all unions? Would you like to go back to the 12 hour work day? 6 day work week? That AK worker workes for the the company and himself. That firefighter works for the public!!! That teacher works for the public!!! You don't even bring up police; is there an equivalent private sector job? Why do you begrudge anyone a better standard of living? Equality of opportunity does not guarantee equal outcome. Do we really want the lowest possible common standard of living for workers>

OK TonyB- here's where I'm coming from so that you know how I developed my thinking. I have said before that I have worked for eight different companies ranging from 400 workers (Crane Plastics in Columbus) to 100,000 worldwide (P&G), General Cable and International Paper- big time players in their respective businesses. None were unionized. This has covered over 40 years working in research in paper, plastic, automotive and beauty care technologies.

In 1994, after 10 years at P&G, I was one of the thousands "downsized". P&G let me make the call when I wanted to leave and I stayed on another two months. In 1999, at General Cable, I came in one morning and started working at 8:30AM. At 10:30 AM, I, along with 340 others, were called to the front conference room and told that because of bad business decisions made by the CEO that quarter, they were recouping costs by letting people go. I had one hour to clear the area. In 2002, at Black Clawson here in Middletown, they closed the research center over on Jefferson St. and all of us techs headed to International Paper to work the next week. I have been downsized three times since 1994. Question for the union supporters and you.......Have any of you union people had to worry about coming into work and being told that you had one hour to clear out your desk and leave? Have you ever worried about being downsized? THAT is one big difference in the world you live in and the one we in private industry live in. Not to mention the lower wages for comparable skills and more out of pocket costs for our benefits than typical union shops. All I'm saying is that the union picnic may be coming to an end. It may come to pass that the union people will now be required to live in our world. When we non-union people do what we do and are paid what we are paid and see what union people do and what they are paid, there is bound to be comparisons made and those comparisons may not register well with non-union folks.

No, I'm not trying to advocate the end to unions. Unions need to readjust for the times in their demands, albeit temporary. I'm advocating the possibility that reality might hit the union people at some point down the road and they will be brought to the reality that their employers (be it company, city, township or county)can no longer afford their demands. The party may be coming to a close on upscale bennies at minimal cost and upscale wages gathered over the years because there has been no checks and balances in negotiations. No one has represented the taxpayer footing these bills and the tax revenues are now flowing at a trickle for cities who still must pay out salaries and bennies meant for better times. School Boards, county commissioners, city councils in the past have given in to many union demands. Now, they are finding out that they can no longer do that financially and the union supporters don't like it. Both sides need to change the thinking.

You ask... "Do we really want the lowest common standard of living for workers?" I reply...No, the best scenario is to provide the highest standard of living THAT WE CAN REASONABLY AFFORD. Not "begrudging anyone a better standard of living".....all should benefit from the highest standard of living possible WITHIN AFFORDABILITY FOR THE PERSON PROVIDING THAT standard of living. Will do no good to keep asking for more if you end up bankrupting the hand that is feeding you, will it? How long do you think you can keep raiding the till before it empties? Demands/expenditures up and revenues down = bankruptcy. Is that what the union people want?

Let's switch this situation around just for the fun of it. Let's say that the private sector salaries were paid out of union dues that were collected from the public sector and the private sector only paid 2-3 percent toward health insurance , didn't pay toward retirement,and received step raises regardless of any expectations that was sought from the public sector. Let say each year the unions lost members for what ever reason, but the ones left were ask to pay more dues so the private sector could receive their annual and step raises just because they think that they deserve them and has always got them. After years and years of this continous pattern the unions are running low on monies and can't afford other amenities for their members which are footing the bill.

TonyB...thanks for the chart and info. on the wealthy. Surprised to find the ten most wealthy in Congress were mostly Dems. Wonder if Kerry's wealth is his or is his wealthy wife's (Heinz ketchup people, aren't they?) income included? The .01% down to the 1% range is staggering. Still not bad at $164,000+ for the 1-10% group. I'd take that and still feel poor compared to the 1 percenters. Looks like Wall Street and the CEO's are the big winners with the rest of us taking a bath on properties and income. Mercy this is so skewed and makes one angry to look at. No wonder there are alot of people who hate the rich. Where's Robin Hood when you need him? Thought the Bush tax cuts were to help the rich free up money to create more jobs for us lowly peons and to stimulate the economy. Also doesn't look like that is happening does it? Also looks like the people, who can afford to be taxed the least are giving the most and the corporations, who certainly can afford the taxes more than the people, are giving the least. This is bass acwards. Looks like we are taking it on the chin in payroll taxes too as they have ramped up over the years. This is opposite what it should be too. Need to put more money in people's bring home pay to create more spending and help with that higher standard of living you are talking about. Stats do make you want to hate the rich, don't they?

One more comment about your post.....I'd like to amend one of your statements if I may......you mentioned-

"Quite frankly; teachers, police and firefighters should be among the best paid workers anywhere!!!"...insert high performing before the word teachers in this statement. I don't believe we should offer the best pay to any of these categories unless they are top notch. For example, based on the performance of the Middletown school district, I wouldn't necessarily be inclined to offer all teachers in this district the "best pay". Some haven't earned it. And just because a police officer or firefighter "places his/her life on the line every working day" doesn't necessarily automatically qualify them for "best pay" either IMO. They still must perform for that distinction. Military personnel, like the police and firefighters, "place their lives on the line (especially in a war zone)everyday" and you see what kind of pay they draw (even when you include combat and hazardous duty pay). JMO

Vet,  I agree wholeheartedly that best pay should be for best workers. That is the American way. It gives incentive to be better in your profession.

Ok ashkicker- here goes the response....

"Would it be possible for an employee to be promoted "when a position opens up and there is still a need to fill that position" and receive less pay than the employee who chooses not to move up but continues to earn merit pay?"- an actual example that happened for you....my grandfather at Armco Steel years ago.... he was a 4 high temper mill roller in West Processing. He was Zone 24 pay-highest you could go.(He was there 46 years so he worked his way up the ladder)- he was offered a Foreman position which would have been a promotion, but he told them no. He could make more money than the foreman with bonuses and overtime even though the Foreman position was higher on the totem pole and would have been a promotion to lowest level management.

"Do you know the salary ranges of any of the career paths you have cite, medical, AK or housekeepers? I don't but would be interested to find out. More than once I have responded to AK and watched AK workers running from the building the public expects me to run into. I am not knocking the AK workers for protecting themselves, I am glad to see everybody out of harms way."...Guessing here- AK range for floor worker-25 thou to 35 thou (non-union)-(union) 35 thou to 60 thou base perhaps-medical...LPN- maybe 25 thou to 40 thou-RN....35 thou to 60 thou perhaps Just guessing here. Not my career field. Might be way off. Housekeepers- low wages at hotels I would suspect.

"I've paid the $50/hour plumbers bill, the $75/hour furnace repair bill, paid the scalpers price for tickets to a Reds game (with players making millions) and even spent my $7 for a movie ticket (with actors making millions). While you may not have a problem shelling out money for other professional that do their jobs, you complain that police and fire jobs should pay lower wages (including benefits).".....I have paid them for these services too. Not all of this cost goes in their pocket. They have business expenses to cover for a portion of that hourly charge-truck upkeep/insurance, parts to install, paying employees,business taxes, building rent if not owned, tool costs, etc. What does that leave them per hour that is really theirs as take home pay? Have not been to a movie in years and went to my first Reds game in 30 years last year. Another party paid for the whole event- too expensive for my wallet even through a scalper.


"Do you have the same enthusiasm when it comes to the top of the food chain? I seen where Kaisch is the 12th highest paid governor. Shouldn't he be around 25-26? His political appointees will be making more money than their predecessors (I believe one post is a $44,000 increase). How do Ohio legislators get paid. Is their raise automatic? If merit pay is important, they shouldn't get a raise until the budget is balanced. Doing away with collective bargaining alone is not going to balance the budget."....Nope- don't like the high rollers either. Think most of them are overpriced and get in the way in the workplace most of the time. Think most managers are corporate drones, have no common sense, are a pain in the a-- and have no people skills. If the state legislators work like the feds, they vote themselves a raise and no one is there to tell them they can't. Kasich can pretty well do what he dam pleases as to passing out the money to his boys and girls in his area. Voters forget that every time at the polls and re-elect the clowns time and time again. Assinine thinking IMO, but then again, none of us common voting people have a real choice that would be decent, do we? That's why we get stuck with the same 'ole same 'ole. As the Who said....meet the new boss, same as the old boss on the "Won't Be Fooled Again" song- Who's Next album.

" $45-55K. Base salary is at the top end of your range presently. I guess my benefits put me out of your acceptable pay range."- wasn't considering the cost of the bennies package. Knew that would add to the overall picture. Just made the guess at an acceptable salary based on wages only. Again, you asked the question and I responded. If 55 thou is the base salary, and the pay could go up to what????? 65 thou- then IMO- yes, too high. Remember- you asked me to take a shot at a fair salary. Obviously, it was not what you wanted to hear but as I judge what you do, in comparison to other jobs that may or may not be close to your vocation, I would place the value where I did. If you are at 55 thou, then you have exceeded research pay for techs who have been working for large companies for years already. Very few techs will reach that level of pay be it large corporation or small company, no matter how long they work before retirement.

acclaro--how long have I been saying this on this forum?