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The next big thing!

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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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    Posted: Oct 23 2010 at 2:31am

This may be scuttlebutt, as I heard it at one of the local watering holes. But it came from a usually knowledgeable source, who didn’t realize that I was sitting in the next booth.

There was a good bit of noise, and as many of you know, my hearing is not “20/20”. Also, I was NOT trying to eavesdrop. However, here is what I am sure that I overheard:

The City plans to “give” (context?) the former Senior Citizen’s building, as well as other downtown property, to Cincinnati State Technical and Community College, for purposes in addition to the “culinary school“.

Other downtown structures were mentioned during the conversation, but I am not certain of the context. These may or may not have been in conjunction with Cincinnati State, but the entire part of the conversation that I overheard seemed to be about that subject, so I tend to think they were somehow connected.

There was a price paid for my clandestine activity. Since I was not giving full attention to the conversation at OUR table, I must have uttered one too many absent-minded “uh-huh” and somehow agreed to pick up the tab!!!  Unhappy

Now some of you may think that this will be a good thing (I’m talking about Cinci State, not my picking up the tab--me picking up the tab is always a good thing!!! LOL) others may not be so sure, but if I’m not mistaken didn’t the Middletown Art Center (MAC) have their eye on that former Senior Center building??? Bad luck for them!!! Oh well, we have Pendelton. We don’t need MAC so much anymore, do we???

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2010 at 6:20am
Mike
The Manchester Inn will be closing at the end of the year and I believe the City will move heaven and earth to keep this building from becoming vacant. (Nothing like looking out the 4th floor windows of City Hall on a big brown empty building) What a view!
After the give away deal we handed to PAC pray tell me why Cincy State wouldn't just sits back and wait for our desperate City to give them whatever deal they request. The new owners of the Manchester will need some big bucks to restore the building...Sooo will the City give them a grant (gift) to sweeten the deal?
While many thought the PAC deal was a great addition to the downtown it also tells outside investors the value of other real estate downtown.
However just last year the City paid over a $100,000 each for properties just down the street so they could demo them....hmmmm
So what is the real value of downtown real estate ?
Well Mike we shouldn't worry because PAC will be having their Grand Opening in about 30 days.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TANGO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2010 at 8:33am
I do not agree with giving tax payers money or property to private business, other local communites are doing the same and offering money to get business in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2010 at 10:23am
I wouldn't consider what the city is doing as "bringing in business".
 
If no one has a job how will they spend money at these new "business" locations ?
 
People on section 8 and welfare,low income families are not going to culinary school or rent space in an art studio. People at city hall that are making $130,000 per year are either delusional or having some major grandiose thoughts or both.
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2010 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by Vivian Moon Vivian Moon wrote:

...Sooo will the City give them a grant (gift) to sweeten the deal? ..
Vivian,
Why of course not!!! Are you crazy???  Our city does NOT give "grants"!!!  We cannot afford to give "grants".  It would be irresponsible for the city to give grants, especially with our worsening budget outlook.
 
We do, however, give "forgiveable loans" that never have to be repaid under ANY circumstances, but those are NOT "grants".  Big%20smile
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 7:23am
The creative giveaways for this project will make the PAC look like very small potatoes.
Has considerably more up-side potential though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 8:51pm
I am very suspicious of city council or any government agency giving grants, loans, or the like to private industry, but I might bring up the example of Armco--Mike, I think you might remember this:
 
I am pulling from my memory, which also isn't what it used to be, but as I remember it,  according to "True Steel" by Christy Borth, on or about the year 1900 Middletown city council agreed to give $25,000 to George Verity's American Rolling Mill Company if it agreed to locate in MIddletown, provided that the payroll reached some certain level (that level was either not mentioned in the book or it escapes me at present).  Now of course, $25,000 in the year 1900 is probably more like $2,500,000 in today's dollars, so it was a pretty sizable grant on the city's part.  I think it's safe to say that grant turned out pretty well for the city.  What would Middletown be today (or ever been) if Armco had not come here?
 
As I said, I am suspicious of governments giving grants or favorable loan terms to businesses, but isn't this just effectively a tax break on the city's part to entice a business to locate here?  And given that the business/entity will generate payroll taxes for the city coffers, isn't this just an investment in future tax receipts on the city's part?  When viewed in this context, grant money for business investment is about the best possible use of city funds, since it represents an investment in future cash flows back to the city, as opposed to simply paying city employees, which could be defined as "consumption" on the city's part.  This is assuming that the city makes prudent use of grant money, of course.  And if they give some vacant or nearly vacant buildings as enticement for Cincinnati State to come here then I think it's a no brainer that they should pursue this.  What is the true cost to the city? 
 
So I think it behooves all of you to not rush to judgment one way or another on this issue--it may turn out to be a great investment on the city's part.  Time will tell.
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swohio75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 9:52pm
I thought it was more like $75k.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 10:05pm

Perhaps it was $75K; if so, consider the city's grant to be about $7,500,000 in today's dollars. 

"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

... according to "True Steel" by Christy Borth, on or about the year 1900 Middletown city council agreed to give $25,000 to George Verity's American Rolling Mill Company if it agreed to locate in MIddletown, provided that the payroll reached some certain level ...
VOR:
Yes, I did read "True Steel" back in the late '60s.  Great book, in my humble opinion.
 
Yes, the "gift" to Mr. Verity paid off handsomely to the citizens, but did you notice the STRINGS that our early city leaders had the foresight to attach to that "gift"???  I must've missed any similar proviso attached to the "forgivable loan" to PAC.  Can you educate me, please???
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 9:47pm
Mike,
 
Yes, I agree it was wise to attach a string like that in the grant to Armco.  And I know of no such proviso in the current forgivable loan to PAC.  But if you think about it, having a forgivable loan is actually a better position for the city to be in than the deal offered to Armco.  If Mr. Verity's company had reached some certain employment level, and then he decided for whatever reason, to shut down the Middletown mill, the city would still, under the terms as you and I understand it, have had to give him the money. 
 
In the case of the PAC, the city can forgive it or it can simply hold the note for as long as it likes.  Is this forgivable loan simply a grant disguised as a loan--a wolf dressed in sheep's clothing, as it were?  I don't know.  But, combined with the Cincinnati State news, it seems possible that some semblance of a downtown revitalization might take place.  And spending the money (is it $400K or so?) to get something started downtown actually doesn't bother me when compared to the other ways that the city spends its money, since this will hopefully represent an investment in future tax receipts to the city rather than consumption on the city's part. 
 
What does this money (say it is $400K) buy us elsewhere in city services?  I guess for $400K we get about 4 firefighters for a year, we get some short street paved, or we get some grass cut.  In my opinion, it is well worth the risk to try to entice an institution with somewhat of a proven model (PACs in Cincinnati and Ashland, Ky, I believe) in order to spur some development.  After all, it isn't as though anyone is beating down the doors to invest in Middletown. 
 
In closing, I will say I am skeptical of things like this, that some dunce(s) on city council will be duped by some "investor" with grand plans for some enterprise in Middletown, but in this case there seems to have been some vetting and there is something of a proven track record of success.  Again, time will tell. 
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 9:50pm
And Mike, you questioned the city's logic on PAC, which I think should rightfully be questioned, but this forum started out as being about Cincy State. 
 
Are we to assume that, based on what we know so far, you are of the mind that the city made a good move in that Cincy State deal?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 3:41am
Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

...I know of no such proviso in the current forgivable loan to PAC.  But if you think about it, having a forgivable loan is actually a better position for the city to be in than the deal offered to Armco.  If Mr. Verity's company had reached some certain employment level, and then he decided for whatever reason, to shut down the Middletown mill, the city would still, under the terms as you and I understand it, have had to give him the money. ...
In closing, I will say I am skeptical of things like this, that some dunce(s) on city council will be duped by some "investor" with grand plans for some enterprise in Middletown, but in this case there seems to have been some vetting and there is something of a proven track record of success.  Again, time will tell. 
VoR:

Well, I have thought about it, and this city’s idea of a “forgivable loan” is in no way a better position for the city to be in than the deal offered to Armco.

In the case of Armco, if Armco failed to live up to their end of the bargain, the city was in a position to seize all assets, sue their pants off, and at least attempt to recoup their investment.

In the case of PAC, the “forgivable loan” is a “loan” in name only. There are no terms or requirements for “repaying” the loan EVER, under ANY circumstances!!! (Yes, I have read the contract documents included in the workbook and made part of the legislation.) The “loan” is $200,000 that Verdin gets to use, in addition to the money already spent by the city, to upgrade, remodel and outfit the property as he sees fit. All PAC has to do is to “remain in operation” for ten years and not only is the “loan” forgiven, but also Verdin gets free, clear title to 7 N. Broad St. There is no definition of “remain in operation”. If PAC “ceases operation” during the ten years, the property reverts to the City, after Verdin has 30 days to clear out everything of value and “vacate the premises”!!! There are absolutely NO TERMS for payments of ANY KIND under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!

Referring to this arrangement as a “loan” is akin to referring to the Grand Canyon as a “ditch”!!!

Verdin either sticks around and ends up owning the property, including the taxpayer-financed improvements, or he washes his hands and walks away whenever he feels like it.

PAC can “remain in operation” without ever having even ONE employee, or the city seeing even one red cent of tax revenue!!! All he need do is lease out a few “studios” to “artists” who can then choose to sell their wares (or not) WHEREVER they care to sell them.

As far as the “proven track record of success”, I believe that I wrote about the differences between Rising Sun (a rural location with two casinos that bring in thousands of visitors EVERY DAY with HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of dollars of disposable income) and the PAC Cincinnati location (an area which also has THOUSANDS of visitors, commuters, shoppers, lawyers, etc. EVERY DAY and is within a short distance of DOZENS of other art galleries, art schools, and the like, etc.) before, so I won't bore the regulars by repeating. Comparing these two locations with Middletown is simply NOT apples-to-apples.

The most apropos comparison is Ashland, KY. Do you know anyone who has actually BEEN to PAC, Ashland??? I have…about two years ago…and I just did NOT see all of the development that others speak of, and goodness knows that, after PAC closed on that Friday evening, my wife and I desperately looked for somewhere to dine and perhaps have a few drinks. We gave up, settled for fast food, and went back to our motel. I might note that we had no trouble finding a park within fifty feet of PAC’s front door that Friday evening, and I didn’t even take the “handicapped” spot, though I am able to legally use one.

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 9:56pm
Mike,
I will grant your points about the suspect nature of the loan.  But it's $200K--I would ague that it's not that bad a deal for the city.  And if we elect leaders who are smart enough to hold PAC's feet to the fire about remaining in operation then I think it's worth a shot to bring them to town.  We will better know if it was worth it in about 5-10 years. 
 
But back to my next question--what are your thoughts on Cincy State?  Is this fundamentally different than PAC?  If so, why?  If not, why oppose PAC but not Cincy State? 
 
I am beginning to think that you avoid answering the difficult questions, questions which challenge your reasoning and assumptions...a shame that would be if someone as clearly passionate as you are won't reply to questions that aren't easy to answer. 
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 29 2010 at 4:50am

Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

Mike,

I will grant your points about the suspect nature of the loan. But it's $200K--I would ague that it's not that bad a deal for the city. And if we elect leaders who are smart enough to hold PAC's feet to the fire about remaining in operation then I think it's worth a shot to bring them to town. We will better know if it was worth it in about 5-10 years.

Vor:

First, let’s be real and stop throwing around the word “loan”!!! This is NOT a “loan” by any stretch of the imagination. There are no terms for city leaders, smart or stupid, to hold Pac’s “feet to the fire” over. They either stick around and keep a few studios rented, or they pick the place clean an walk away whenever they so desire. In NO EVENT are they EVER required by ANY terms to repay anything. And it is NOT just the $200,000. There has also been an unreported amount spent before that just preparing for the remodeling (cleaning, mold remediation, etc., which I have heard totaled a 6-figure number, but cannot verify.) There is also a matter of nearly $200,000 in back property taxes that must be paid before the city can provide clear title.

Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

But back to my next question--what are your thoughts on Cincy State? Is this fundamentally different than PAC? If so, why? If not, why oppose PAC but not Cincy State?
Regarding CSCC: I am waiting for more information on exactly what this will cost the already fiscally-strapped citizens of Middletown before I can become too vociferous on this issue, but generally speaking, I am in favor of education.

However, this IS “fundamentally different than PAC”!!! CSTCC is a public college under the authority of the Ohio Board of Regents. Pendleton Art Center is a private company. If I have to explain this fundamental difference (and the use of public funds in the support of the two) to you, there is no use continuing. Was this intended as a “trick question”???

Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

I am beginning to think that you avoid answering the difficult questions, questions which challenge your reasoning and assumptions...a shame that would be if someone as clearly passionate as you are won't reply to questions that aren't easy to answer.
Are you brand new to Middletown??? Go through this site and read some of the lengthy posts (some are short quips, but just as many are quite long and cite the sources of information referenced therein) on any number of diverse topics. I assure you that you will find many, many that are “difficult to answer”. Ask people that you know who have been here for a while. Agree or disagree, like me or hate me, you will find very, very few who will opine that I avoid difficult topics. I might suggest those that hold that opinion simply choose not to see or hear my answers, or do not like what I have to say.

YOU, for example, chose NOT to consider the subject of recall until you know who will be running for the recalled seat. Others think that the decision “to recall or not to recall” is the first step. I, personally, do not think that waiting for a little more information on the Cincy State matter is ducking the question by any stretch of the imagination. Heck, I may end up being completely against it, or I may end up donating to the cause. It may depend upon how badly City Hall screws up a good thing. Will they insist on putting some of their “FOCs” (Friends Of City hall) in a position to profit??? Who knows???

But I will say this, I post on whatever topics I choose to post.  I do so under my own name.  I present the same views in public, when appropriate, and have offered to debate public officials, or anyone else in any forum ON AN EQUAL, LEVEL FIELD if they disagree!!!
 
I extend the same offer to you!!!  Name the time, place, and suggest a moderater!!!
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 29 2010 at 5:14am
Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

And Mike, you questioned the city's logic on PAC, which I think should rightfully be questioned, but this forum started out as being about Cincy State. 
 
Are we to assume that, based on what we know so far, you are of the mind that the city made a good move in that Cincy State deal?
Have YOU been involved in the executive sessions???  Are YOU aware of all the details???  The rest of us have only the foggiest of ideas of what "move" the City made, so please enlighten us!!!
 
Heck, the best info I have so far, I overheard in a local bar!!!  Do you want me to take a stance based on THAT, and then be criticized by all of the local muckety-mucks for spreading rumors???  (Although I must admit, everything I heard matches what has been reported so far in The Journal...but THAT doesn't make it so.)
 
PS:  You can "assume" whatever you'd like.  That doesn't make it so.
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 1:19am

From a Middletown Journal story updated 11:48 PM Friday, October 29, 2010:

“City Council will consider legislation to purchase two of those properties — the city already owns the senior center — as well as the Sonshine Products, former First National Bank and Bank One buildings and the lot at 105 Main St.”

This also matches what I overheard last week in a local gin mill.
 
If “Sonshine Products” is the building on the northeast corner of Manchester Avenue and N. Main Street, I believe this property is owned by Manchester Enterprises, Inc., so I believe that it, like the two bank buildings, is at least partially owned by the estate of Mr. Thatcher (or his heirs or assigns). If the “lot at 105 Main St.” is the parking lot next door to this building, it could be likewise owned, or is possibly already owned by the City of Middletown.

So the question remains: How much will it cost the cash-strapped citizens of Middletown to acquire these properties and prepare them for Cincy State???

Of course I agree with the general idea of another institution of higher learning in our city, but we have not heard any details.

Criticize me and call me a “naysayer” if you’d like, but “cheerleading” for this venture while having no idea of the price tag is a questionable stance at best.

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 6:59am
I agree that it is too soon to get too giddy about this news.  When will the other shoe drop?  I have a feeling once news concerning the financing of this venture are made public we're not going to like what we hear. 
 
And now they're talking about using the other bank buildings downtown?  I guess it's good news but I feel like we're trading all of downtown for a venture that will not SIGNIFICANTLY enhance the tax base.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PattiGal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 7:22am
Hey Mike...sometimes I also hear a tidbit or two out there...most recently I've heard that Cincinnati State is just ONE thing...there are more really good things to come. Wouldn't that be amazing? I could applaud for Middletown even louder!!!
"Because nice matters..."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 7:58am
Patti,
I'm all for good news.  This town could certainly use some.
 
However, the devil is often in the details.  "Good news" from One Donham Plaza is often like those internet emails that that begin with:

“Congratulations, you have just won our fabulous GRAND PRIZE…”

It isn’t until after about four or five flowery paragraphs describing how fortunate you are and how wonderful it will all be, that it is finally revealed that:

“ALL you need do is send us your credit card number!!!”

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 11:22am
Mike,
 
No trick was intended in my question about whether Cincy State was different than the PAC deal--I simply wanted to know where you stood on the issue.  I wanted to see whether you are against all transfers of city assets without some type of sale or auction mechanism in place, or whether you are ok with the transfer of city assets to other government entities--in this case, Cincy State.  While their is a clear distinction in government vs. private use of these assets, it wouldn't be unreasonable for a person to be opposed to the deal on the grounds that the city is giving up too much (although I don't think the city will have to give up all that much relative to the scope of the project, given the propensity of government-sponsored educational institutions to spend as if money grows on trees...but that's another matter.  So I'm fairly confident Cincy State will come, and will bring their checkbook with them. 
 
I am also acutely aware that PAC is a private enterprise while Cincy State is public (but being "public" often times burdens the taxpayers far more than private enterprise, given the heavy state subsidies on public higher education).  But again, to my points about the size of the grant/loan (I am with you that it may be a grant in a not-very-good loan disguise, so I don't understand your agitation with regard to this point), since you have provided a $200K figure over 10 years, this amounts to $20K/year, plus the remediation/other costs.  $20K/year is not worth losing sleep over, and frankly it's a good use of the city money when you consider what else the city can buy with $200K (two firefighters for a year, etc)...which brings me to my point about the best possible use of city dollars.  The best possible use of city dollars is an investment that brings in future cash flows to the city in the form of income tax receipts, which may be spurred in part by such grants.  Your point about how the city could have sued Armco over its grant is incorrect, since as we both seem to understand it, the terms of the grant were that once Armco met a certain payroll level, the city would fork over the cash to Armco.  Thus, there would have been no recourse for the city under those circumstances, but in the case of PAC if the deal is first arranged as a loan then the city does have some leverage.  Also, your analogy with the Grand Canyon is an invalid one, since the reference to the funds provided to PAC are not questions of size and scope (the dollar amounts are largely known) but rather the questions center around the true nature of the funds--is it a subsidy, a loan, a grant, a tax incentive?  All are financing in one form or other, and each presumably has its initial investment (cash outflow by the city) and each has its cash inflows (in the form of future income tax receipts or loan/interest repayments).  So don't confuse the nature of the matter at hand. 
 
I will applaud you for being willing to wait until the full details are known, but again, you seem to be selectively choosing your points to make, since I had said "based on what we know so far," what is your position.  If you can't make up your mind based on the facts known, then ok.  It is perfectly fine to wait until the full details are known.  I have been part of no executive sessions, I have no secret wiretaps to reveal, I have nothing to offer other than what has been in the Journal and what has been posted here. 
 
To your points about being willing to answer the difficult questions--no, I am not new to Middletown and I have not read all of your one-thousand, seven-hundred, twenty-one posts on this site, nor do I intend to.  I raised the point about you being unwilling to answer difficult questions for a couple of reasons--in another discussion you seemed to reference people in the historic district getting grants/funds from they city for use in their homes--when/where/how much did these transfers of cash occur?  You did not answer that question to my knowledge, and I am genuinely interested in knowing more about this issue.  In addition, I was curious to know why you went off on a tangent about PAC in a forum that began about Cincinnati State, since you are reluctant to give any credit to the city before the full details of the Cincy State deal are known but you are quick to jump on the city's case about PAC before the full details of that deal are known (you yourself brought up the remediation costs, which are not known, and the final outcome of that deal seems to be in flux, given the fact that PAC may in fact repay the loan in full). 
 
As far as your "generous" offer to debate anyone, anytime, anywhere, isn't that what we're doing here?  Aren't we already debating the issues and facts?  Does debating in person with known identities change the outcome or the reasoning behind the debate?  No, it does not.  The facts are what they are, the issues remain as they are regardless of the nature of the forum.
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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acclaro View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 1:37pm
VOR, while wild exuberance permeates throughout Middletown on PAC and Cinci State, lets use facts as a basis of summarizing the rationale which compelled these events to materialize.Middletown hs lost thousands of jobs and has been unconscionably behind in every major trend in the past 30 years, causing suffering and economic calamity to its residents.
 
As an outcome, with literally block after block of empty property and an eyesore from corner to corner with particularities to the downtown, the city is giving property and making sweet- heart deals to many entirties; the most recent PAC and Cinci State. Hence, to suggest credit is due the city for giving buildings and property away or making sweetheart deals to bring in a few entities that would be an alternative to buildings sitting like a wasteland is hardly deserving of merit and hoopla. The realsim is as Cinci State would be the first to state, there is still $15 Mm which may need to be invested (or >), and this is not a done deal. And if it does come to fruition, it will only be attributed to Middletown being in such a poor economic state, that PAC and Cinci State realize the deals may be so attractive, they should not walk away from such "sweetended" deals.
 
Using your logic, city council and city hall should be applauded for creating a wasteland downtown, but be praised as an outcome, for virtually giving property away,or creating such low leasing arrangements (recall---the city will not pay property tax on the buildings and neither will PAC nor Cinci State associated with lease agreements), based upon two Cincinnati entities having a northern presence. In my mind, that does not constitute praise nor "job well done."
 
In allprobability, it saves the Manchester from being saved the pain and anguish of the wrecking ball, and the capital loss associated with capitalized upgrades and expenditures. While delighted Middletown and more importantly, students, may have the benefit of not driving to Cincinnati, the recourse provided in this chain of events was give away property and make leasing dirt cheap, or have the wrecking ball bring the buildings down. 
 
Many would call these actions having a "fire sale", but others call it progerssive "regionalism".  At least the audience for thesummerconcert series The Bash will have a few more patrons, with the Cinci State deal doesn't collapse. I remain suspect as to how many students fill up the campus, however than getting Pell grants and loans.        
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 2:43pm
Now that this conversation has broadened, I would like to throw in my $.02 worth of layman thinking.
 
IMO due to un-necessary haste, pressure and paranoia, the "city" dived into this situation ass-backwards.
 
When comparing the Cincy State project and PAC, PAC is truely small potatoes or less.
With all indicators well-known that C St was a deal strongly in the works, and the properties involved also well-known, if patience had been put into play resolving the C St. situation first, the "city" would have had a much stronger hand to play in the PAC deal. No huge desparation giveaways, Council theatrics, or rendering other adjacent area properties less than worthless(actually C St. will be another much more worthy beneficiary of private property "giveaways" at the public expense). PAC would have had put a LOT more skin into play to get into this game IF they REALLY wanted to be here. Actually--with C St coming, the PAC deal probably wasn't necessary or important at all.
 
As C St comes to fruition, that PAC property would have been much more marketable,. Still--the only properties that will have changed hands so far have been either "city" giveaways + many more $$, and private properties "gifted" by the "city"(after they are purchased with taxpayer funds of course).
 
Our ED Dept. and city staff, as "experts", are obligated to serve the citizens in the best fiscal manner. Seems that they might be taking the quick/easy way by giving us away un-necessarily.
 
The PAC project has been unusally quiet since the big deal. Anyone have an update on this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 5:43pm

Look, “Voice of” (and I am beginning to wonder exactly whose voice you are being), it is YOU who is continuously “confusing the nature” of at least one “matter at hand”!!!

YOU keep spreading the illusion “that PAC may in fact repay the loan in full”!!!

Please enlighten us with details of how you see this happening, since there are no terms for this to happen in any agreements with the city. What YOU and City Hall keep calling a “loan” never calls for any repayment of any kind, on any level, in any way.

You are correct that the City is reluctant to reveal the environmental remediation costs of the PAC building. See if you can find them. Also see if you can find out the final costs to the City of remodeling according to the mysterious “Exhibit C”, which were never made public. These costs were rumored to be in excess of $250,000.

I anxiously await your revelation of the terms of repayment of the “loan” and the final costs to the taxpayers of the other improvements to 7 N. Broad. Then we will discuss the next items on YOUR AGENDA.

After all, we wouldn't want to "confuse the issues", would we???
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomahawk35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 9:25pm
I am sensing that all this give-away is just a plot by our city leaders to get all of their buildings renovated with taxpayer's money.
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