Print Page | Close Window

Collective bargaining laws up for discussion

Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Outside World
Forum Name: News Stories
Forum Description: Comment on News Stories
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3511
Printed Date: May 14 2024 at 4:31pm


Topic: Collective bargaining laws up for discussion
Posted By: Bocephus
Subject: Collective bargaining laws up for discussion
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 2:56am
By Jessica Heffner, Staff Writer 11:02 PM Sunday, December 5, 2010

MIDDLETOWN — City Council will confront a volatile issue Tuesday when it discusses a proposed resolution urging the Ohio General Assembly to re-examine collective bargaining laws for municipalities, which at least one council member says limit local governments’ ability to control personnel costs.

Councilman Josh Laubach, who brought the idea to City Council and authored the resolution, told members at their last meeting that getting a handle on union contract restrictions is vital for Middletown to stay fiscally sound.

He cited the more than $2.5 million increase expected in police and fire department personnel costs in 2011 as one of the reasons the city needs to find a new way to negotiate contracts with its eight unions.

“If we are running a business, we are looking (at these increased expenses) and saying this is off the table,” he said. “I think for these reasons it’s important that this body ... petition the state legislature for help.”

The bulk of Middletown’s budget — $21.7 million — is for police and fire services, which are receiving a $3.8 million increase despite no new positions.

Laubach brought up concerns in November that the city was dipping into reserve funds to make up for a $762,109 gap in its 2010 budget.

City Manager Judy Gilleland said a study involving the eight employee unions indicated that if each had foregone pay increases in 2009, the city could have saved $600,000.

“As unpopular as it may be to talk about or — in my case — politically unpopular, I believe we are reaching a point where we have no choice but to talk about what collective bargaining means and how it affects our bottom line,” Laubach said.

Councilman A.J. Smith has already publicly protested the proposal by posting a link to his Facebook page last week urging residents to e-mail Mayor Larry Mulligan to tell him “not to support this absurd resolution!”

“(Arbitration) provides an outlet that allows labor and management to have disagreements and have those disagreements tactfully and orderly arbitrated,” Smith said. “I’m afraid Josh’s mentality is employees don’t deserve rights. Josh will tell you employees work at the pleasure of the employer and that is completely wrong.”

“If we get rid of collective bargaining we are asking for a much less qualified workforce,” Smith said. “Ask those council folks (who) are willing to support that resolution, are they willing to have those employees strike?”

Mulligan said he doesn’t think the legislation is meant to be negative toward unions, but to give the city “more flexibility and not leave the decision to a single arbitrator.”

He added that the legislation would not have an immediate impact on city unions: the resolution merely urges state legislators to take action on current laws.

John Hoover, president of the Middletown Fraternal Order of Police Lodge No. 36, said he plans to attend council’s meeting Tuesday.

“Obviously we do not support this issue,” he said. “(Arbitration) helps us. Any city is going to come to who they are bargaining with and say we don’t have any money. I think without it we are at their disposal as far as whether we get pay increases, insurance benefits or any type of benefits at all.”

Jon Harvey, president of the International Association of Fire Fighters Local 336, said he was “totally appalled by council’s actions.”

“I think they are using their council seats to push their personal agendas,” he said. “And I don’t think collective bargaining has negatively impacted the city at all.”

The last time a union contract went through fact-finding or conciliation arbitration was in 2007 with the Fraternal Order of Police, according to city records. The arbitration resulted in the police union receiving a 3 percent increase for each year of the three-year contract.

Once contracts go through conciliation, the decision made by the arbitrator is binding. At that stage, there is no room for negotiations — either the arbitrator will side with the employer’s request or the union’s, said Sara Mills, Middletown’s assistant law director.

There are eight unions comprised of Middletown employees, according to the city law department. Of those, firefighters, police officers, supervisors, dispatchers and corrections officers are in unions that can go to binding arbitration. The remaining unions — which include Public Works, transit, police civilian and water treatment employees — are “strike units” meaning binding arbitration is not an option if an agreement is not reached and the parties could choose to accept terms or strike.

Since 1997, Middletown has gone through the arbitration process with employee contracts four times.

The last contract to go through the arbitration process was a three-year contract with the Fraternal Order of Police in 2007. In conciliation, the arbitrator awarded the union 3 percent pay increases for each year of the contract, according to state records.

City Council will meet at 5:30 p.m. Tuesday in city council chambers, One Donham Plaza.

http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/middletown-news/collective-bargaining-laws-up-for-discussion-1021824.html   



Replies:
Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 3:01am
I wish I had recorded that last council meeting where AJ stated his job,does any one remember what he said ? something about being in charge of five counties ? LOL




Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 6:54am
The right thing to do Josh. Good thinking on your part. The other council members should support this also as well as any city leader who is interested in making the city budget healthy again. Disappointed in Mr. Smith and his non-support of this resolution, but his "not so hidden" hidden agenda is rather obvious with his desire to join the fire department and in helping their union while in office.

I have always worked in non-union companies, eight to be exact,from large corporations to small industrial park ones, and have never had the so-called benefit of collective bargaining. The company gave each department a specific allotment of money and it was up to each individual supervisor to distribute the money as he saw fit, BASED ON PERFORMANCE AND VALUE TO THE DEPARTMENT, to each individual. Some got 0%, some got 2% and some got 3% or more, until the money ran out. Depended on ones contribution in the last year. That's how it works in a non-union shop AJ. There was no one making outlandish demands to the company on behalf of the employees.

“If we get rid of collective bargaining we are asking for a much less qualified workforce,” Smith said. Nonsense AJ. There are many qualified, productive, quality minded people in the workforce that aren't connected with a union and have no collective bargaining chips. You have been talking to too many union people to see the truth. The unions had a purpose at one time years ago. Now, alot of them are breaking the bank, bankrupting the very hand that are paying them with their demands. The Teacher's Union is a classic example of a group of people who are killing the very hand that feeds them....the taxpayer through the numerous levies needed to afford their demands. The outlandish demands need to stop. No one gets a three percenter every year. Some companies announce that profits weren't good for the year and there will be no raises. Disappointing-certainly, but in times like these, you oughta be thankful you have a job that pays the bills.

John Hoover, president of the Middletown Fraternal Order of Police Lodge No. 36, said he plans to attend council’s meeting Tuesday.

“Obviously we do not support this issue,” he said. “(Arbitration) helps us. Any city is going to come to who they are bargaining with and say we don’t have any money. I think without it we are at their disposal as far as whether we get pay increases, insurance benefits or any type of benefits at all.”

Jon Harvey, president of the International Association of Fire Fighters Local 336, said he was “totally appalled by council’s actions.”

“I think they are using their council seats to push their personal agendas,” he said. “And I don’t think collective bargaining has negatively impacted the city at all.”

Both union reps exhibit typical union mentality. Certainly collective bargaining has hurt the city Harvey. It's dam near bankrupted it with your demands over the years and the inability of past/present city leaders to stand against your demands. You won't compromise. The city is hurting for money because the past and present narrow-minded nimrods running this city haven't generated any revenue through jobs to pay for your demands.

"We are at their disposal as far as whether we get pay increases, benefits...." Harvey, the majority of workers work in non-union shops and are at the mercy of their employer as to raises, benefits, etc. What makes you think you're so special?


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 7:04am
Sadly, I don't this council has enough guts or brains to take on the unions over this.  There will be a lot of wimpy comments about how valuable our police/fire is because, after all, no one wants to upset them. 


Posted By: Lostdafire
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 8:16am
Councilman Laubach should be commended for stepping out front with this proposal.  

The "binding arbitration" component of the collective bargaining law and grievances as it applies to Police and Fire negotiations and settling grievances needs to be eliminated. 

Put local control back in the hands of local officials. 

Becker, Picard, Allen and Mulligan need to support Councilman Laubach's resolution.  I hope they do not give in to the organized union opposition that will be present Tuesday evening. 



 








Posted By: TANGO
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 9:16am
     Note; the rest of city employees have but one raise of 1 percent in the last few years. We have all felt the pain of this recession why should any body be exempt.


Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 9:37am

Josh is showing a lot of guts by bringing this to the forefront,a valiant effort. But I'm afraid his efforts will be wasted because the city is not going to fight the union and the union is not going to just fade into the background,although I wish they would. As I've said a thousand times and now for a thousand and one,police & fire have no business being unionized. Most unions are nothing more than organized crime syndicates,they will go to any length to obtain their objective including literally holding a city hostage.

I hope Josh sticks to his guns on this and demands more from council and city leaders.


-------------
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!


Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 9:46am
Mr. Smith, you seem to constantly open mouth and insert foot, when talking to the paper and thus the public.  Concerning the quote below,
 
If we get rid of collective bargaining we are asking for a much less qualified workforce,” Smith said."  
 
Could you please provide me with any data you have that proves Non-Union personnel are any less qualified than Unionized Personnel?  Does the city have two sets of qualifications for it's Public Safety employees, the Union Qualifications and the Non-Union ones?  So in your mind all Non-Union employees in the City of Middletown are less qualified to work for the City than Unionized workers, very dim view of your constituents if you ask me.
 
When is your term up?


Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 11:08am
Taken from Aj smith's Facebook Page
 
AJ Smith - Voters/Citizens/Taxpayers, come to the Council meeting this Tuesday at 5:30pm in the city building. Urge your Council members not to support this JOB KILLING, ANTI-COMMUNITY resolution!
 
 
AJ Smith  - CALL TO ACTION! Some Council Members want to cut your police, fire and public works employees so far back that we'll become unsustainable as a city. Our police officers, firefighters and public works employees need our help right now. Click this link, email the Mayor and tell him not to support this absurd resolution!
Stop Attacks on Services and Workers' Rights in Middletown!
Council members in Middletown, Ohio will present a resolution Tuesday that would put the services our communities receive at risk and repeal workers’ rights in the state.  Don’t let this anti-community, anti-worker Resolution pass.
 
The resolution calls on the Ohio General Assembly to reconsider Ohio’s public employee collective bargaining law.  Since it’s passage in 1984, the collective bargaining law has helped to create greater consistency and stability in the relationship between labor and management.  This shared approach to public work has led to better planning, greater productivity, improved delivery of services and made workers and employers mutually invested in outcomes that are accountable and transparent to taxpayers and the community at large. 
 
The law also provides workers with a vehicle for dispute resolution, which has dramatically cut down on work stoppages in Ohio and keeps vital emergency services running even during times of tough worker-employer disputes.  It also has given public workers – who were exempt from Federal collective bargaining laws passed in 1935 that only covered private sector workers – a voice on the job and legal rights in negotiating contracts with public employers. 
 
Take action now by filling out the information below to send an email to Middletown Mayor Larry Mulligan asking him to oppose this resolution and keep our communities safe and protect the rights of public service workers.
 
After you send your email to Mayor Mulligan, make plans to join labor and community activists for the first reading of the Resolution at Tuesday’s Middletown City Council meeting at 5:30PM at 1 Donham Plaza Middletown, Ohio
 
Read more on Councilmen Smith's http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=1424490164&v=wall - Facebook page


-------------
Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357


Posted By: LMAO
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 11:18am
I think what happen is when Mr.Smith got in that spat with those ladies one of them must of slapped the common sense out of him.LOL


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 11:27am
I love it -- "job killing resolution"..what a laugh.  Why is AJ so concerned with the outcome of a handful of public safety job but not the jobs of anyone else in town?  Or the long-term job-CREATING prospects in this town?  Hmmm
 
I also would like to know who is the ghost writer than gave AJ the language for that post.  He obviously could not have done it.
 
AJ, please let me know when you take your first economics class and then explain to me how this city can afford to keep paying, and hiring more, public safety employees without spending down our reserves to nothing.  You've never had a fact-based answer for this budget problem.  In your fantasy world, the "other shoe" never drops.
 
I haven't thought much of this "man" from the beginning and I think even less of him now. 


Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 11:33am
AJ's statement above reads like it just came out in a "pro-union campaign" flyer. After reading the above statement by Mr Smith one has to question who is he working for ? The people who elected him or the FOP ? And how would services arrive at "unsustainable" as Mr Smith states ? I seriously doubt that the city wants to cut services so deep that there would be no police or fire left to respond to any given situation.
 
I think AJ has over-stepped the boundries in his plea to garner union support.


-------------
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!


Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 11:34am

I think this would be a great time to show up at meeting and show your support to Josh and show the rest of council that this is something that needs to be done or at least looked into. Does anyone plan on attending?

 
This should be a heated topic:

Resolution No. R2010-42, a resolution urging the Ohio General Assembly to reexamine and reconsider State laws limiting the ability of local governments to control personnel costs. (1st Reading)



-------------
Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357


Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 11:49am
   It is a mystery to me why no one talks about privatizing or outsourcing some of our departments in this kind of economy. When you outsource you sell the department and that puts money in the treasury. You draw the agreement to the city's satisfaction. It includes performance clauses, the new owner does all arbitration and negotiation (to the city's satisfaction) with unions, EPA, etc. The new owner almost always uses the same personnel. They streamline and run things much more efficiently. It can be for whatever term the city wants (ten, twenty or thirty years), at the end of which the city can buy it back. The city maintains control, gets cash and loses the headaches. What could be better in times like these.
          I have been the bigest supporter of our fire and police until I saw the attitude of both our chiefs att the recent council meeting. They wouldn't compromise for one penny. The union leaders have always turned me off but I stuck with them in spite of their unreasonableness.
          One other matter that I have always resented is that we have a majority of our safety forces that live out of town, Yet, when elections roll around they get out in organized force and interfere with our elections to get their candidates elected, support their levies and we don't have fair elections. That is against the law. But, Middletown excels in it.
            It is time to do some outsourcing and privatization. The economy is not going to get much better for a long time. The issue must always be, WHAT IS BEST FOR THE CITY!.
            Paul Nagy
           


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 12:14pm
Good points Paul.  And I think, in more ways than one, AJ Smith's positions are rarely what is best for the CITY.  They usually are what is best for him, for unions, for a select few cronies, etc.


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 12:28pm
AJ you are a winner for sure LOL now please tell us who wrote that piece for you.




Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 12:32pm
Just read his Facebook sounds like hes running for the Senate (maybe president some day who knows) LOL


Posted By: Mr. Dave
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 12:43pm
Well wouldn't you vote for him to represent us on that level?  Wink


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 12:51pm


Sure I would he wouldn't be any worse than what we have representing us now LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL




Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by Bocephus Bocephus wrote:

I wish I had recorded that last council meeting where AJ stated his job,does any one remember what he said ? something about being in charge of five counties ? LOL
 
Here you go BO he states he is employed by the Ohio Secretary of State, this from his Facebook page:
 
Employers
  • http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ohio-Secretary-of-State/118194564866333 - Ohio Secretary of State August 2010 to present
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Regional-Liaison/139452379418639 - Regional Liaison
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Columbus-Ohio/108450559178997 - Columbus, Ohio
    Representing Secretary Brunner in a 5 county region of Southwest, OH - Hamilton, Butler, Warren, Clermont, and Clinton Counties.
  • http://www.facebook.com/pages/City-of-Middletown/105348039504351 - City of Middletown December 2009 to present
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/City-Councilman-City-of-Middletown/108260482541396 - City Councilman
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio/105642216135108 - Middletown, Ohio
    I represent the 2nd Ward.
  • http://www.facebook.com/pages/ASJ-Associates-LLC/104797192885844 - ASJ & Associates, LLC. September 2009 to present
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/PresidentCEO-ASJ-Associates-LLC/106120376093119 - President/CEO
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio/105642216135108 - Middletown, Ohio
  • http://www.facebook.com/pages/Obama-for-America/105720476134457 - Obama for America November 2007 to November 2008
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Chicago-Illinois/108659242498155 - Chicago, Illinois
    Elect Barack Obama


Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 2:02pm
Paul outsourcing was discussed on here a few years ago.  I think if you search for inter-governmental contracts it may come up.
 
 


Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by randy randy wrote:

Taken from Aj smith's Facebook Page
 
AJ Smith - Voters/Citizens/Taxpayers, come to the Council meeting this Tuesday at 5:30pm in the city building. Urge your Council members not to support this JOB KILLING, ANTI-COMMUNITY resolution!
 
 
AJ Smith  - CALL TO ACTION! Some Council Members want to cut your police, fire and public works employees so far back that we'll become unsustainable as a city. Our police officers, firefighters and public works employees need our help right now. Click this link, email the Mayor and tell him not to support this absurd resolution!
 
Read more on Councilmen Smith's http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=1424490164&v=wall - Facebook page
 
Can someone refresh my memory on who wanted to cut Fire, Police Etc. on Council.  Seems to me Council and the city has been trying to avoid that at all costs by laying off other workers at City Hall.  By not giving raises or minimal raises to other groups of employees.  By trying to get the Public Safety workers to agree to a wage increase concession which has basically been pushed aside by some Unions.   AJ you a seem to have a hard time getting your facts straight.  It is a shame that rather than represent the City as you were elected to do you choose to rant and rave about employees most who do not even live in the city and can't even vote in the city.
 
But then again when you have someone trying to be Obama, this is what we get unfortunately.....Obama-Lite.


Posted By: TANGO
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 2:40pm
Hey Randy I will be at the meeting to not only show support for josh but let the rest to council know that the voters are behind him as well. Paul N. I agree with what you are saying but I am very concerned about privatizing and regionalism. I think if the government would let the cities run them selves they would be allot more efficient, but still have control.
AJ IT HAS VERY APPENT THAT YOU ARE OPPORTUNIST  AT ANY COST TO THE CITY


Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 2:57pm
Tango,
         I cannot attend the council meeting but I sure will be there with you in spirit. Privatizing and regionalism is and should be a concern but the way this crazy world is going and with the special interests of council over the best interests of the city they should be seriously considered.
         It is always so encouraging to see everyones input.
         Thank you.
              pn


Posted By: Nelson...Himself
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 3:33pm
Randy --
 
Sad to say, MiddletownUSA is about the only place where us average Middletonians can express opinions.
 
Thank you once again for your efforts!
 
The truth will set us citizens free from certain bureaucrats, some elected officials and the power brokers.
 
Clap   Clap   Clap


Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 5:57pm
Why do the Unions say no to foregoing NEGOTIATED raises in hard times? Becaus in good times if they were to ask for MORE than the nogotiated amount , you all would say " you have a contract. what is wrong with you wanting more now? honor th e contract.

Nuff said. Until you all support Unions getting MORE than they bargained for in good times, why in the world do you think they should give now? It is called give and take. all you all want to do is take..


Mr Nagy, I bet if you had a company that had a contract with Middletown to provide some privatization service and City Council ask you to waive some negotiated increase , you would to tell them to pack sand.

Why is it you expect the Unions to do what you would not?

I know....we all agree to some Tax increase to cover half the raises and we then ask to the Unions to cover the rest. How many here would go for that? I bet NONE!


Great character.

It is always about what SOMEONE else can give! That shows great character. NOT


Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 6:25pm
Hey start talking Unions and the loony Union guys come out of the woodwork.  Hey I have no problem honoring the current contract.  I say just start laying off police and fire as was men toned elsewhere on here.  Stop picking on the little guy to support the Public Safety unions.
 
Also vote no on the upcoming scare fest with the renewal of the Public safety levy.  Don't fall for the Union hollering the end of the word is coming if you don't past the PS Levy.  I won't be voting for it.  Unions cut off their noses to spite their faces just as AK workers did.  Stand fast now and then bitch when the layoffs come, Hey works for me.
 
The unions have been getting 3% for many years now while the rest suffer.  Time for the unions to pitch in which they won't do voluntarily, so then you must use force, forced layoffs.  If the city doesn't have the balls to lay them off I'll do it for them, just give me the names. 
 
Good Ole Irisner better to bleed the city dry than take a cut or freeze now.  Yeah that sure makes sense.  Problem with Unions it is always about them and no one else.  Everyone else be damned.
 


Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 6:44pm
lrisner,
      You are real good about putting words in peoples mouth about what they would do under purely hypothetical circumstances without any facts to support your accusations.
       No one needs to support unions getting MORE than they bargained for in good times or any other times. Your accusation to the people on this forum that  "all you want to do is take" is laughable in the light of this cities history in at least the last fifteen to twenty years.
          You don't know what I would do if I had a company to provide some privatization and I was asked to waive some negotiated increase. I would do like most principled business people do who have values. I would look at the contract, the circumstances and the need and make a decison that is in the best interest of all concerned.
           I don't expect unions to do what I would not. I expect them to do what I would do.
           You are also wrong when you say,..."we all agree to some Tax increase to cover raises and we then ask the unions to cover the rest."  You are right when you say, ' You wouldn't go for that."  What many of us did "go for" was to vote against the last levy in 2007 because it only gave raises (even retroactively) to police ,fire and all city employees but did not add any additionally needed fire and police employees. We wanted to give more than they were asking for because the city needed it. It was a political football that was all about bureaucratic increases not public safety. We needed more fire and police personnel. I took a lot of heat because I was pushing a larger (but more limited) tax levy. Wasteful is right. We all ned to share the sacrifice.
         Your insinuation about character is shallow and falls short of the needs and economy of our situation and times.
         Please offer us a solution to the problem.
         Paul Nagy 


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 7:20pm
Irisner- I have a question for you. I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to learn something from a union person as I have never worked in a union environment before.

Question: (please don't answer if this gets too personal- I understand)

You obviously have health, dental, probably vision and some type of retirement package, do you not? If so, what is your contribution to these programs out of your wages in percentage? If your answer is that I don't contribute anything, it is all paid for by my employer, you are already light years ahead of most of us. We are asked to contribute more as time goes by to our dental, health, vision premiums and some employers have cut way back on the amount of money they are plowing into ones retirement. That means, if we are going to have a decent 401K at the end of our working days, we will need to have more and more deducted from our pay to make up for what the employer use to put in...if we can afford to do so. Most can't as the wages aren't that terrific to dedicate a large portion to one's retirement.

Question: Have you ever had a year when you got no raise? How about a .5% raise? 1% anytime? I have on several occasions during my 40+ years of working. Just the way it is in a non-union environment and there's no one to go to to "air a grievance" or bargain. You take it and go on because there is no one to listen to your dissatisfaction. OR, do the union folks usually....always get a 3 percenter every year like clockwork that is based on contract negotiations BEFORE the work is actually done rather than on contributions or merit for the year based on work that has BEEN DONE?

Thanks, in advance, for your input if you choose to participate.


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 8:18pm
A year ago I would have been on the opposite side of this argument but now I have to throw my support behind Josh Laubach and his idea .Knowing that the City I worked in was going in the hole and would eventually have to lay off workers and/or cut off services.Wouldn't it be better for the City and fellow employees that make decent wages and have great benefits to take a temporary freeze,every one is getting hit in this economy and a wage freeze would show the public that we can pull together to help this City stay safe.

P.S.

I think that the Police and Firemen here in Middletown are among  the best in the Country bar none and I do not take my position lightly as it directly affects some people very close to me.


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 8:20pm
Good points Vet.  Don't forget the de facto age discrimination in the private sector.  Let's say your hope was to save a max amount in your 401k for your final 10 working years.  Then how about getting laid off at 55 or 60 and trying to find the same work at similar pay.  Good luck!  So not only lose a job and end up taking one at lower pay, but now you can't catch up on your retirement savings.  All while people like Irisner, the pot bellied cops getting Twinkies at Speedway, or the cop at the library who is half-asleep all day don't have to worry about age discrimination or the ravages of the economy.  No no.  Heck, they can't wait to get older because that's when the gravy train really starts!  Maxing out the overtime so that their final pension figures get boosted.  Happily counting down the weeks and months to retirement with no fear of downsizing....let alone no fear of working hard.  Hell, that's for the young bucks on the force.  Don't you see, a job is an ENTITLEMENT and a RIGHT according to people like AJ.  He's learned well in the 4 years he's had a driver's license that once hired, never fired.  Heads, union guy wins, tails we all lose.


Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 8:36pm
I think it time for this town to stand up and be accountable for this continous  spending that has this town in a total mess. This police/fireman situation falls in the same category that most of us  have already went thru which is a salary decease or no pay raise.( you make adjustments when this occurs)
I have been in my trade for over 40 something years and I took a $3000.00 lost, but it wasn't because I lost any skills, it was due to the current financial situation that has plagued the whole country. I will be the first to admit that it was a total shock to me and my financial situation
I am sure the argument will be because of the danger of the jobs but that said, I read today's news that the military was going to  only get 1.4 percent raise and I don't think any job could come close to the dangers that these young men face not only daily but every minute that they are working.
I have all the admiration for the police/fire depts. but hard times call for hard decisions.
I also read that just because we passed a levy for these depts recently that the city could use the money for other venues which is a crock. If anyone knows this for a fact,I would like to hear your comment.


Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 8:49pm
I am glad that council is taking up this resolution (even if it has no real impact).  The unions have expressed their opinion, now the city government can express its opinion.  I applaud Laubach for taking this up and being willing to make a public point about the issue.   
 
Did anyone else see the irony in the comments by the president of the local FOP:
 
" I think without it we are at their disposal as far as whether we get pay increases, insurance benefits or any type of benefits at all.”
 
Welcome to reality, Officer!
 
It appears that he is perhaps finally comprehending what 90% (the non-unionized portion) of the workforce has to accept as part of the terms of the agreement: the employer offers you a wage and certain benefits, and you either accept and work for raises (hopefully) or you find work elsewhere.  Very simple. 
 
It seems that the unions have become so entitled to their automatic pay increases and generous benefits packages that they are vastly out of touch with what most working Americans have had to accept and work with for years. 


-------------
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK


Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 9:00pm
If outsourcing works for the United State government ( Wright Patterson) then it will work for local government.
This would relieve the city from paying out high insurance rates and eliminate the cost of these ungodly benefits and vacations. This would save alot of money which could pave the road for this city to  get this town back to a respectable community.


Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 9:01pm
Tomahawk outsourcing works in many communities.  The last place I lived used the below service in conjunction with it's regular Medical Service.
 
Maybe the city needs to check into this service to handle the less urgent calls for Medical Service since the Fire Dept. is constantly mentioning the number of calls for Medical Service they receive.  Then we can reduce the need for 85 Paramedics to staff the other cities after hours where most live.
 
http://www.amr.net/ - http://www.amr.net/


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 9:18pm
Tomahawk, the danger of the job is rewarded by the early retirement after 25 years and the relatively generous pension and health care. 
I fear there is no one in charge who has the guts to do anything about this.  It is times like this when this city needs leadership that can figuratively crack some skulls and make no apologies.


Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 9:41am
I really get upset when I hear some of the retired GM employees upset they now pay insurance premiums.  They were supposed to have free insurance.  They also get a Christmas bonus every year - but then I see another family member that did not make it to retirement with GM because they closed down.  Now they work a part - time job barely making it.  I work harder now and make 10k a year less - no bonus.  Unions have really hurt alot of people.  Reality is the economy can not afford to pay increases. 
 
I do agree that we fire/police have tough jobs.  I do not wish for any cuts - I don't like to see anyone cut from a job or benefit.  But when we all have to tighten our belt - they have to as well.
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 10:22am
Bill, you got this one right. AJ Smith, the only positive reason I am pleased the ward system will go away. Sounds more like a campaign speech and running for harvey's job, than a commonsense approach to govern. The word is 'entitlement' and it will not be given up. No reason to get worked up, this will go nowhere. All the jobs that are open, and the city states they are cuts by not filling them. The only city in my life, that commonsense, fiscal responsibility, and ethics, doesn't have a place in governance. No, there will not be cuts, no alterations, life continues on. Lets just rejoice AJ Smith will be out in another few years. Talk about predible AJ---gee, give it a rest.   


Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 11:02am
It appears Smith has removed his little union Diatribe on Facebook, either than or I am over looking it.


Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 11:13am
You would be correct. His entire page has been changed. I wonder if this just a coincidence??

-------------
Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Irisner- I have a question for you. I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to learn something from a union person as I have never worked in a union environment before.

Question: (please don't answer if this gets too personal- I understand)

You obviously have health, dental, probably vision and some type of retirement package, do you not? If so, what is your contribution to these programs out of your wages in percentage? If your answer is that I don't contribute anything, it is all paid for by my employer, you are already light years ahead of most of us. We are asked to contribute more as time goes by to our dental, health, vision premiums and some employers have cut way back on the amount of money they are plowing into ones retirement. That means, if we are going to have a decent 401K at the end of our working days, we will need to have more and more deducted from our pay to make up for what the employer use to put in...if we can afford to do so. Most can't as the wages aren't that terrific to dedicate a large portion to one's retirement.

Question: Have you ever had a year when you got no raise? How about a .5% raise? 1% anytime? I have on several occasions during my 40+ years of working. Just the way it is in a non-union environment and there's no one to go to to "air a grievance" or bargain. You take it and go on because there is no one to listen to your dissatisfaction. OR, do the union folks usually....always get a 3 percenter every year like clockwork that is based on contract negotiations BEFORE the work is actually done rather than on contributions or merit for the year based on work that has BEEN DONE?

Thanks, in advance, for your input if you choose to participate.
 
To answer some of your questions:  Most public employees contribute 10% in to their PERS retirement, with the employer contributing 14%.  What most people DO NOT REALIZE is that public employees have to offset any Social Security with their PERS pension.  This means that if a person worked in the private sector and accumulated Social Security benefits, those benefits will be offset by the PERS pension.  What this means is that public employees who enjoy a PERS pension do not get much at all from social security because of the offset.  MOST people do not this fact!
 
To answer the second question:  I am a union representative for public employees and i can tell you first hand that there are ALOT of 0% wage negotiations going around.  Union groups in places like Moraine, Springfield, Dayton, etc are not only taking 0% raises, they are taking furlough days and other "givebacks" in order to help the City get though this difficult financial situation. 
 
How about you s0-called "concerned public" start holding the public officials accountable for THEIR actions.  I see double dipping ALOT with upper management in cities all over the place.  Unforttunately, The public employees seem to be the easy target right now.  Most people who have decided to work in the public sector did so at a lower wage than those in the private sector in order to receive some of the same benefits that you now want to eliminate.  Maybe you should have selected a career in the public service, but since you didn't, don't hold your decision against the employees that decided to be a public servant!
 
I will be there tonight and i hope to see some of you there, but i have a feeling most on this board will not show up.
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 2:31pm
I will acknowledge at least  Hoffa got the PERS contribution right. As for double dipping, Hoffa, the public administraors do it as a cost containment method. While I disdain the practice, te rationale is really quite simple to understand. The double dip makes it possible to pay a continued salary so there is no additional 14% PERS match. So, essentially, these IS AN OUTSOURCING model, as the county, city, state, fed, pay a contracted salary, but are not required to match the 14%.
 
If that is the case, as we know it is, and the justifcation for cost containment (by reducuing the need to pay 14%), the reality is, then its obviously cost effective to simply subcontract or outsource these positions out.
 
The fed does it, but taxpayers don't realize how lucrative this practice is. For instance, in the MOBIS contarct, which is done with rather senior, Master's level and above managament consultants, a 10-15 year contarct will pay DAILY, nearly $4600. for top tier firms like PriceWaterhosueCoopers or AT Kearny.
 
I believe the post was doing exactly what you are advoactong, that is, holding city council accountable for bringing down costs through legislative action. I believe 99$ of all who entered the work force 25-30 years ago, knowing what we know, wouldhave entered public service for the security, the double dip, and the perks. By no means, is the pay less than the private sector---the pay on average, is higher in public service, than private. A senior executive would be lucky to get a 6 month severance deal, let along the $100 Kk Plus buyout, for unused vacation.
 
The clamp must be put in place. Less public revenues means the gravy train has stopped. You telling any of us $150 kk in Butler Cty isn't providing a nice lifestyle for the large numbers making this amount? Same with the public sector college profs and administrators. Outlandish for limited or no acccountability and lifetime job security.        


Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 2:55pm
Mr. Hoffa States,
 
"To answer the second question:  I am a union representative for public employees and i can tell you first hand that there are ALOT of 0% wage negotiations going around.  Union groups in places like Moraine, Springfield, Dayton, etc are not only taking 0% raises, they are taking furlough days and other "givebacks" in order to help the City get though this difficult financial situation."
 
To that I have to say so what.  Many in Middletown have lost their jobs, many other have taken PAY CUTS and still many others haven't seen a .5% pay raise let alone 3% in years.  Middletown Public Safety employees haven't seen 0% since I have been in this town and I don't remember them getting below 3% in any year.  When the .25% Public Safety levy was past some got up to 5% I believe.  In Middletown if you told them 0% they would say fire the Secretaries and give us a raise, that is just the way they are.  It is all about them and screw the city and it's residents.
 
Only would Union employees faced with, take a 0% raise or be laid off, dispute it to conciliation and get the raise then be laid off.  That is the mentality of AJ's qualified Union employees.  Whereas the average person would fore-go the raise and keep their job and be thankful in these times.  Unfortunately Unionized employees have come to feel they are entitled at every bend in the road and the rest of us are just here to make them comfortable and happy, what a mind set.
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 4:13pm
[QUOTE=wasteful]Mr. Hoffa States,
 
"To answer the second question:  I am a union representative for public employees and i can tell you first hand that there are ALOT of 0% wage negotiations going around.  Union groups in places like Moraine, Springfield, Dayton, etc are not only taking 0% raises, they are taking furlough days and other "givebacks" in order to help the City get though this difficult financial situation."
 
To that I have to say so what.  Many in Middletown have lost their jobs, many other have taken PAY CUTS and still many others haven't seen a .5% pay raise let alone 3% in years.  Middletown Public Safety employees haven't seen 0% since I have been in this town and I don't remember them getting below 3% in any year.  When the .25% Public Safety levy was past some got up to 5% I believe.  In Middletown if you told them 0% they would say fire the Secretaries and give us a raise, that is just the way they are.  It is all about them and screw the city and it's residents.
 
Only would Union employees faced with, take a 0% raise or be laid off, dispute it to conciliation and get the raise then be laid off.  That is the mentality of AJ's qualified Union employees.  Whereas the average person would fore-go the raise and keep their job and be thankful in these times.  Unfortunately Unionized have come to feel they are entitles at every bend in the road and the rest of us are just here to make them comfortable and happy, what a mind set.
 
 Don't forget, only the safety forces have conciliation.  Public Works employees' do not.  I have many bargaining units that have not received a raise in several years either.  Gotta go to the meeting, see you there.


Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 6:26pm
After listening to the threats by these Union Thugs I say just start the layoffs.  The unions understand one thing layoffs.
 
Personally I found the innuendos and talking down to Mr. Laubach, the name calling and threats despicable by those, all of whom were Union members, most who do not live in Middletown, don't pay the taxes in Middletown, can't vote in Middletown, don't support Middletown in anyway and are only in this for the support of unions.
 
Mr. Smith you should control yourself when supposedly representing the citizens of Middletown your clapping and cheshire grin did you no favors on TVMiddletown.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 7:34pm
Thank you Mr. Hoffa for the responses. Now, you mention that most public employees contribute 10% to PERS while the employer contributes 14%. I am in a 401K and can contribute )0-5%-10% or 15% with my employer contributing a matching amount.(They still put in even if I contribute 0) Your plan sounds better contributing 10% and the employer more at 14%.

You can't use the Social Security thing on private people as they are forced to contribute each paycheck through non-voluntary contributions. When I retire, all I'm getting back is my own money I have contributed each payday for 50+ years. I've paid my own way in retirement. More if I croak early on. I have paid for 50 years, but probably won't live long enough to collect all of it. Most don't.

You're right on the double-dipping scumbags. The public is surely irate about it...just not enough to demand a change. Public officials retiring and being rehired in some other capacity, school supers retiring and then becoming re-employed in the same job or area of expertise... shouldn't be allowed to happen. Once they're gone, they should stay gone.

Oh, that thing about union people in surrounding areas getting 0% raises and taking furloughs and other "givebacks"? Hasn't even been talked about in Middletown by the unions and until it is, it's not a viable topic to offer here for discussion. We have had no indication that the Middletown unions are willing to take 0% or any other meaningful concessions that I'm aware of. Could be wrong. Anyone know of any?


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 7:37pm
Can't wait for the movie on TV Middletown wasteful, Who did the namecalling, what did they say and how was it answered? Threats? As in personal threats at a public meeting? Need to watch one's mouth when it's public.

Did the union boys win or is it "to be continued"?


Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 8:51pm
No personal threats the usual Union talking points.  We have 600 members in Middletown and we can..........  The unions failed to get the point of the Resolution and took the resolution as a threat to there little fiefdom and they weren't happy.  The guy I think from Dayton and his condescending talking toward Laubach was the worst if you ask me.
 
Almost none of them were from Middletown.  Yet Smith was in heavan, surprised he didn't given them a standing ovation and give them a key to the city.
 
After this little show don't come knocking on my door asking for support for the Public Safety Levy.  If I have to go out and get a Concealed weapons Permit so be it.


Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Irisner- I have a question for you. I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to learn something from a union person as I have never worked in a union environment before.

Question: (please don't answer if this gets too personal- I understand)

You obviously have health, dental, probably vision and some type of retirement package, do you not? If so, what is your contribution to these programs out of your wages in percentage? If your answer is that I don't contribute anything, it is all paid for by my employer, you are already light years ahead of most of us. We are asked to contribute more as time goes by to our dental, health, vision premiums and some employers have cut way back on the amount of money they are plowing into ones retirement. That means, if we are going to have a decent 401K at the end of our working days, we will need to have more and more deducted from our pay to make up for what the employer use to put in...if we can afford to do so. Most can't as the wages aren't that terrific to dedicate a large portion to one's retirement.

Question: Have you ever had a year when you got no raise? How about a .5% raise? 1% anytime? I have on several occasions during my 40+ years of working. Just the way it is in a non-union environment and there's no one to go to to "air a grievance" or bargain. You take it and go on because there is no one to listen to your dissatisfaction. OR, do the union folks usually....always get a 3 percenter every year like clockwork that is based on contract negotiations BEFORE the work is actually done rather than on contributions or merit for the year based on work that has BEEN DONE?

Thanks, in advance, for your input if you choose to participate.


Thank you for asking. You show some class by asking a liget question. In all honesty, most on here just want what they want and will justify their position by any means.

Mr Nagy, you could not be more wrong. You have always seemed to be reasonable and I will assume your comments here are for being uninformed. MOST on this site are uniformed on Labor matters. Wasteful and Pacman are so out of the info loop, they might as well be 1st Graders trying to do Astro Physics.


As to the question of what I contributed from my pay. Nothing because it was a non-contributory Plan. That is something laid out by Law. It means that the Employer pays on the behalf of the Employee. Now, if you all will put your thinking caps on and forget the angry emotion you usually use to decide an issue, you will remember in Economics, the TOTAL Labor cost is what matters. If an Employer is paying x number of dollars on an Employee's behalf, guess what? The employee has LESS chance of greater raises because of that existing cost.


I tried to educate some before about total labor cost but they only want to hear what they want to hear.


Who cares if the employer pays or the employee makes MORE in pay and pays the bens themselves. What difference does it make? NONE!


As to the AK reference, you probably STILL think it was strike. Many do and are stupid for doing so. Do you know ANYTHING about the issue. Obviously not, or you would not have made the reference.


The jist of this issue is the fact that labor laws have systematically been altered in the past 25 years to be very unfair to the Worker. Companies now get better Deals with their Unions now because they can be UNFAIR. This is about the City not liking the fact the fact that disputes are decided by an Abitor and they do not have the same option of unfairness to use against the Union the way the Private Sector does.


Also, have I never had a raise? Hell yes, many Contracts. We gave BACK on one Contract and Waived raises on two others. One of the raises waived Contracts was in trade for Pension Contributions.



DUH! So I have never contributed? I have contributed a lot!






Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Thank you Mr. Hoffa for the responses. Now, you mention that most public employees contribute 10% to PERS while the employer contributes 14%. I am in a 401K and can contribute )0-5%-10% or 15% with my employer contributing a matching amount.(They still put in even if I contribute 0) Your plan sounds better contributing 10% and the employer more at 14%.

You can't use the Social Security thing on private people as they are forced to contribute each paycheck through non-voluntary contributions. When I retire, all I'm getting back is my own money I have contributed each payday for 50+ years. I've paid my own way in retirement. More if I croak early on. I have paid for 50 years, but probably won't live long enough to collect all of it. Most don't.

You're right on the double-dipping scumbags. The public is surely irate about it...just not enough to demand a change. Public officials retiring and being rehired in some other capacity, school supers retiring and then becoming re-employed in the same job or area of expertise... shouldn't be allowed to happen. Once they're gone, they should stay gone.



Oh, that thing about union people in surrounding areas getting 0% raises and taking furloughs and other "givebacks"? Hasn't even been talked about in Middletown by the unions and until it is, it's not a viable topic to offer here for discussion. We have had no indication that the Middletown unions are willing to take 0% or any other meaningful concessions that I'm aware of. Could be wrong. Anyone know of any?



Layoffs are a legitimate option. I see nothing wrong with that if the City thinks it needs to do that for Budgetary reasons.

Shocked I might with you?  It is called Logic and principal. That is when the mind is used to decide an issue without any thought of how the answer may or may not effect the thinker.

You, my friend , have neither. you are a purely self centered person who cares nothing for reason and considers the impact on you first and foremost regardless of the overall impact.



Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 9:31pm
As I suspected, council was stunned and intimidated by the large turnout.  It would have been nice if just one on council used his time to ask why the h*ll they should kow tow to a bunch out of towners.
 
And then one of the union speakers saying "work with us, work with the state labor relations board, let's sit down and work together".  Yeah, this is the same canard we hear from the teachers' union.  Translation:  let's talk about anything and everything but reducing our pay.
 
The mere fact that these union soldiers march in lockstep in defense of their system tells me all I need to know -- that it needs to be changed.


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 9:51pm
Maybe someone should post on here what the union fat cats get paid and what their  union dues are used for.I wonder if most of the union members even know how their money is being spent hmm.




Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 08 2010 at 7:02am
Irisner says "That is when the mind is used to decide an issue without any thought of how the answer may or may not effect the thinker".
WHAT the he-- does that mean? Poppin' the gums jibberish.

Irisner further states "You, my friend , have neither(logic nor principal I assume). you are a purely self centered person who cares nothing for reason and considers the impact on you first and foremost regardless of the overall impact".

Where in the he-- did you get that from my post? What triggered that? I asked some questions to learn from the union mentality on how their raises and benefits were handled.

You forget that with public union people, the "employer" is the city and the city is a non-money making entity financed solely through taxes-SUPPLIED BY THE TAXPAYER- In reality, you union people who work for the city have as an employer- "we the people" and "we the people" don't want you union people breaking the bank with your demands in negotiations with the city. Why do the union people get so defensive when asked to contribute to the misery of a poor economy? We in the private sector have taken layoffs, been asked to take less pay if not layed off, been asked to pay more toward our benefits, seen our employer's retirement contribution reduced, or have gotten no raise for years just to keep a job. Hell, I've been downsized three times since 1994. Why are these out-of-towners, who have no business even being involved with Middletown's business here raising hell with council? They need to stay up in Dayton and mind their own business. I'm sure Dayton has more than enough problems for them to complain about to keep them busy. Who brought these clowns here?



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: Dec 08 2010 at 8:54am
In this economy, I cam emphatically indicate I know some of the top people in sales, marketing, strategy, hr, you name it, in private companies being in a position at the top F100 companies, to be laid off.
 
Why isn't someone organizing the offense to put these clowns in their place and take back the city. Bitching on this site has accomplished nothing but maybe make a few feel better for a few days, but not one thing has changed.
 
Only have to look at Bill Becker to see how the system work- unqualified for city manager, but to raise his retirement, Nancy Nix, and the rest of council put him in the manager's seat he had no ualifications to be. He then moves to Warren Cty after being not chosen for a Butler Cty job he was not qualified.
 
What you'll aren't getting is people look around from other cities, and just say, why the hell move to Middletown. They overload their school system and public servant folks with fat, provide limited or no services, and have taxes rammed down the voters throats one election after another.
 
This is a worthless effort. No organization, no effort, just a bitch season. They round up out of towners singing the union points, and a handful act pissed. Why has Smith not been removed from office? Pretty sure he was showing support for his union buddies, not the citizens who voted him in office.
 
Pul the plug on this. Its not even on life support. Like callingin Frazier and complaining, but all words, no action. You'll were run over by a train called union heading for the station.  


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Dec 08 2010 at 9:35am
Why does everyone think the Citizen Comment portion is the be all and end all?  I'm not sure how it works, and maybe it can't be done this way, but it would be nice if council could read a selected number of emails or letters and not just have in-person comments.  Of course, the devil is in the details.


Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Dec 10 2010 at 10:17pm
I apologize Viet Vet, I meant to link my response to someone else's post. A fat finger thing.


Even self less geniuses like me make mistakes.



Print Page | Close Window